LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 01 Feb 2017 03:06

From that perspective (first pic), it looks like a big ass probe, wonder if it is a visual obstruction. But I guess if the pilots are ok with it....

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 01 Feb 2017 03:17

probe location is almost the same as that on the Mirage-2000, which has had it for decades. So I'm quite sure that visual obstruction or non-aerodynamic location are not issues.

vina · Post by **vina** » 01 Feb 2017 05:03

Some fairing /assembly is missing from the refueling probe in the pic. This looks just like a round tube. Doesn't look streamlined. I would guess that the fairing goes on top of this, giving it an overall airfoil shaped cross section, oriented suitably in the local flow.

dkhare · Post by **dkhare** » 01 Feb 2017 05:11

Great news indeed!

Additional Tier 1 Suppliers coming on-board bodes well for delivering aircrafts at a higher rate in the future.

The IFR probe appears to be larger relative to the smaller size of the Tejas - we are probably used to seeing it on much larger sized aircraft. It seems to be placed within the forward field of view of the pilots thus making mating with the drogue easier.

Another milestone completed. What is else left for FOC?

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 01 Feb 2017 08:47

dkhare wrote:Great news indeed!

Additional Tier 1 Suppliers coming on-board bodes well for delivering aircrafts at a higher rate in the future.

The IFR probe appears to be larger relative to the smaller size of the Tejas - we are probably used to seeing it on much larger sized aircraft. It seems to be placed within the forward field of view of the pilots thus making mating with the drogue easier.

Another milestone completed. What is else left for FOC?

Its just 1st flight so far. They haven't certified in for IFR, will be 30 odd flights for that I suppose. Some time remaining for the milestone.

I hope BVR testing with improved Radar performance with new radome is going on well. LSP3/5 are flying quite regularly from flight number updates. Indranil, you have any news on this one..? I think with these two done, FOC is done. Gun trials are pushed for later time already I suppose.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 01 Feb 2017 10:25

DrRatnadip wrote:This is realy a very good news. Do we realy need teens now??

Dr Saab...I have replied to your query in the Make in India' Single engined fighter thread. Please keep this thread pollution free of the teens or any other plane for that matter.

JayS: Thanks for your analysis on the article that Kakarat posted. Lungi dance indeed.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 01 Feb 2017 11:50

I don't think LSP 3 would be part of the BVR testing as that aircraft does a lot of flying for displays ( was on active standby ) for RD. I think it will be performing at Aero India too. They won't use an instrumented plane for that. I would guess it would be 4 and 5 instead. And AFAIK BVR integration flights will start shortly. I would assume after AI.

Vina, there will be no fairing. The probe has symmetric aerofoil throughout the probe except the engagement part. It doesn't show in the picture, that is all.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 01 Feb 2017 23:54

From LCA Tejas' FB page

Inching closer to the final operational task, Tejas got the In-Flight Refueling Probe flown on 31st Jan 2017 on KH-2018 (LSP-8) for the first time.
We take this opportunity to accolade the entire design and integration team for their untiring effort.

Jai Hind..

Zynda · Post by **Zynda** » 02 Feb 2017 00:06

The probe is from Chobham, right?

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 02 Feb 2017 00:47

what would it take to integrate a retractable one for Mk-2? is that considered?

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 02 Feb 2017 01:17

Good Sunny Bright days ahead.
Looking good Tejas looking good.

dkhare · Post by **dkhare** » 02 Feb 2017 01:25

Here is another angle of the IFR probe in the hangar. Seems to have a flatter aerodynamic profile, the symmetric aerofoil shape Indranil mentioned, along the vertical part of the probe.

Courtesy of @ShivAroor @LiveFist

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 02 Feb 2017 03:31

SaiK wrote:what would it take to integrate a retractable one for Mk-2? is that considered?

in such a small aircraft, the penalty of retraction may outweigh the penalty of drag
besides, its always a handy reference for the pilots

Prithwiraj · Post by **Prithwiraj** » 02 Feb 2017 03:35

A very basic question.. Are these probe pluggable (for lack of better words) means based on mission profiles..we can remove them? Or are they hardwired (Again for lack of better words)

KBDagha · Post by **KBDagha** » 02 Feb 2017 12:27

HAL sets up second Tejas production line......

Read more at: http://english.mathrubhumi.com/news/ind ... -1.1700394
http://english.mathrubhumi.com/news/ind ... -1.1700394

KBDagha · Post by **KBDagha** » 02 Feb 2017 12:29

The 3rd #Tejas production line will come up soon after the CCS nod.

https://twitter.com/writetake/status/827045734105174017

Source: WriteTake

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 02 Feb 2017 14:49

KBDagha wrote:HAL sets up second Tejas production line......

Read more at: http://english.mathrubhumi.com/news/ind ... -1.1700394
http://english.mathrubhumi.com/news/ind ... -1.1700394

If this is the current status of SP-5 then I seriously dont think SP-5 & SP-6 could be delivered to IAF by end of march as reported a couple of days by the same author

Nick_S · Post by **Nick_S** » 02 Feb 2017 15:28

KBDagha wrote:HAL sets up second Tejas production line......

Read more at: http://english.mathrubhumi.com/news/ind ... -1.1700394

The second line when fully operational can produce three aircraft per year.

I hope that is a typo.

DrRatnadip · Post by **DrRatnadip** » 02 Feb 2017 16:47

Kakarat wrote:
KBDagha wrote:HAL sets up second Tejas production line......

Read more at: http://english.mathrubhumi.com/news/ind ... -1.1700394
http://english.mathrubhumi.com/news/ind ... -1.1700394

If this is the current status of SP-5 then I seriously dont think SP-5 & SP-6 could be delivered to IAF by end of march as reported a couple of days by the same author

Lets hope that these pictures are little older.

Marten · Post by **Marten** » 02 Feb 2017 17:25

Currently Tejas SP-5 is being integrated here, while SP-4 already moved to the final stages of systems checking at the LCA Division......

Given that SP 4 is already flying, the antiquity of the image should not be in question.
Also, if this is the Kiran assembly area, then it is closer to the entrance of the Airport (meaning, the Airport Division entrance is on the junction with Suranjandas Road). I suspect the number of jigs that can be accomodated there will be much more, and this is a typo (or they are merely using it as a staged assembly area where after basic structural assembly, the airacraft is moved to the LCA division at the end of the runway for final assembly at one of the two final assembly sheds.

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 02 Feb 2017 17:39

Marten wrote:
Currently Tejas SP-5 is being integrated here, while SP-4 already moved to the final stages of systems checking at the LCA Division......
Given that SP 4 is already flying, the antiquity of the image should not be in question.
Also, if this is the Kiran assembly area, then it is closer to the entrance of the Airport (meaning, the Airport Division entrance is on the junction with Suranjandas Road). I suspect the number of jigs that can be accomodated there will be much more, and this is a typo (or they are merely using it as a staged assembly area where after basic structural assembly, the airacraft is moved to the LCA division at the end of the runway for final assembly at one of the two final assembly sheds.

If I am right SP-4 has not flown yet, it is in final stages of systems checking and HAL is trying to get it ready for AeroIndia. All the pictures by Anantha Krishnan seem to be from his resent visit to HAL for a AeroIndia special report

Picture of SP-4 posted by Anantha Krishnan on his twitter page on 31st Jan, I expect these pictures to be max one week to 10 days old

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 02 Feb 2017 17:40

Anantha Krishnan M ‏@writetake 12m12 minutes ago

Here's #Tejas SP schedule at HAL for all those pinged me today, post my piece. 16-17: 5; 17-18: 8, 18-19: 12, 19-20: 16. In pic SP5.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 02 Feb 2017 18:08

Those are nice pics! good to see quite a lot of progress. I do think they will get delivered. It's assembly and integration at this point. No reason why it would take for ever. No more tweaking/testing/qualifying. Just looking at blue print and putting things in place and doing tests to make sure that sub assembly works as the jig gets completed.

I am sure all the parts are there and waiting. We should see sp4 to sp6 delivered soon. They already have sp-11 on the jigs. So there are already 8 jigs in place and for next 2017-2018 the number 8 is assured.

I think once the first 10-12 odd planes get delivered and IAF gets confidence in the plane and FOC get through, the MCRA saga might die naturally! Given the dismal and small defense budget I don't see how we can divert it all for IAF to purchase shiny stuff. If they third line gets approved, then thats cherry on the cake.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 02 Feb 2017 21:58

Kakarat wrote:
KBDagha wrote:HAL sets up second Tejas production line......

Read more at: http://english.mathrubhumi.com/news/ind ... -1.1700394
http://english.mathrubhumi.com/news/ind ... -1.1700394

If this is the current status of SP-5 then I seriously dont think SP-5 & SP-6 could be delivered to IAF by end of march as reported a couple of days by the same author

I don't know about SP-6, but I also don't know how you guys can look at this a picture and say SP-5 is more than two months away.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 02 Feb 2017 22:05

Lalmohan wrote:
SaiK wrote:what would it take to integrate a retractable one for Mk-2? is that considered?
in such a small aircraft, the penalty of retraction may outweigh the penalty of drag
besides, its always a handy reference for the pilots

The chinese might laugh at us soon if we don't think differently [#justSaying]. I am not understanding the gain vs loss here [momentary drag]. I think the design matters.

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 02 Feb 2017 22:10

I thought the target for 16-17 was till SP 6.

I think even SP 5 will not be handed over by March. Anyone has the dates for handing over of SP 1, SP2 and SP3?

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 02 Feb 2017 22:28

Indranil wrote:
Kakarat wrote:
http://english.mathrubhumi.com/polopoly ... /image.jpg
http://english.mathrubhumi.com/polopoly ... /image.jpg

If this is the current status of SP-5 then I seriously dont think SP-5 & SP-6 could be delivered to IAF by end of march as reported a couple of days by the same author
I don't know about SP-6, but I also don't know how you guys can look at this a picture and say SP-5 is more than two months away.

I am not saying that they will not be delivered, just wondering how since according to the pic the wings are yet to be mated and a lot of the internal systems are yet to be installed and there are flight testing to be done post completion of assembly. And if that happens I would be one of the happiest

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 02 Feb 2017 22:38

A 777 takes 83 days to build and deliver
http://www.airlinereporter.com/2012/01/ ... oeing-777/

Time lapse of Fa-18 build
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uclgat7HVMY

Marten · Post by **Marten** » 02 Feb 2017 22:40

SP1 Jan 15, 2015
SP2 July 2016
SP3 December 2016
SP4 February 2016

In March 2016, AK's report quoted Shri Suvarna as saying they would have SP8 as well on the jigs within a month!
Typical assembly would be 45 days, but would prefer that the experts here who know this for sure comment on the same. After all, the SOP was prepared quite late and perhaps there were structural changes necessitated that caused this delay.
PS: SP1 started flying in Sep 2014 and was inducted in Jan but the delay was about a month. So about 2 months for the newer builds?

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 02 Feb 2017 22:55

Marten Sir, pardon me getting into Engineering terrain, but if 45 days is assembly time and there are 08 machines on staggered parallel process (when the last aircraft is nearing delivery, 08th has already spent ~ 07 days on the jig; 07th has spent 14, 06th has spent 20 days and so on), wouldn't throughput be higher than 08?

Or is it 45 days on the final Jig alone?

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 02 Feb 2017 22:59

Throughput is a also a function of available sub assemblies. The jigs may be capable of more, but unless the contracted out parts make it to assembly line and are available to go on the jig, the jigs throughput level will be bottlenecked by that. In some cases certain parts will need 12-18 months of pre order before they show up.

In the case of UAE order of f16, that number was 19 months before the first plane could roll off due to such constraints.

Marten · Post by **Marten** » 02 Feb 2017 23:00

deejay wrote:Marten Sir, pardon me getting into Engineering terrain, but if 45 days is assembly time and there are 08 machines on staggered parallel process (when the last aircraft is nearing delivery, 08th has already spent ~ 07 days on the jig; 07th has spent 14, 06th has spent 20 days and so on), wouldn't throughput be higher than 08?

Or is it 45 days on the final Jig alone?

No Sir for me, please. I'm not the expert DJ Sir.
45 days in final assembly. Not overall. I don't have a chaiwala to confirm this, but Indranil might be able to give us accurate insights.
Cybaru Sir, they must have at least 4 jigs if not 6.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 02 Feb 2017 23:02

Marten wrote: Cybaru Sir, they must have at least 4 jigs if not 6.

Sir?? Why daa?

Yeah, they have 3-4 on the second line. I don't know how many on the primary line, I think about 8 at the moment.

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 02 Feb 2017 23:04

Well, HAL needs to buckle up with some serious project management. Get those supply lines oiled boys. We need to better expectations and not lag.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 02 Feb 2017 23:14

Yeah they do, but they also need support from higher orgs to get those contracts signed, it can't invite for tender and do due process until it has something in its own hands. Anyways, we are past that stage and IOC order and Mk1A order is in hand, so it should speed up the process or ordering parts and filling up the pipeline.

The rafale order has delivery starting after 36 months after order signing (freezing of work definition). Would you give them the same advice?

Marten · Post by **Marten** » 02 Feb 2017 23:18

Cybaru wrote:Yeah they do, but they also need support from higher orgs to get those contracts signed, it can't invite for tender and do due process until it has something in its own hands.

Sorry about the force of habit Sir thing!

JayS can confirm the timelines but it takes 24-30 months after SOP finalization for the assembly to start and about a year more to stabilize. It is not an easy task. The initial delays will not be an issue. In fact, the acquisition of additional assembly areas should be taken as a good sign of HAL being able to take decisions and move forward. If HTT40 cannot convince us of how hard they are trying, nothing can. As they say, dheeraj rakho (translated for our Swedish friends - hire him if you can find Dheeraj).
PS: I think we have a Swedish shock coming soon.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 02 Feb 2017 23:20

We will see soon enough how long HAL takes to deliver SP6.

BTW one of the most interesting part from AKN's article:

He said during the outstation detachment at AFS Thanjavur recently, SP-1 and SP-2 flew seven sorties in a single day.......

Thats impressive..

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 02 Feb 2017 23:21

Marten wrote: PS: I think we have a Swedish shock coming soon.

NOOOooooooo.... Seriously? Chaiwallah?

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 02 Feb 2017 23:24

saik

for a retractable probe - you need a motor, a space, actuators, control circuits, power, structural modifications - all to be squashed into a tiny little space that is already competing for other uses; and all of which weighs x kg's

for a fixed probe - you lose a bit of aerodynamic efficiency - is that > or < impact of adding weight by x kg's (additional fuel requirement to carry x kgs) and cost by Rs y?

it may look pretty, but be a waste of time and effort - only the engineers who worked on it can tell us

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 02 Feb 2017 23:36

Cybaru wrote:Yeah they do, but they also need support from higher orgs to get those contracts signed, it can't invite for tender and do due process until it has something in its own hands. Anyways, we are past that stage and IOC order and Mk1A order is in hand, so it should speed up the process or ordering parts and filling up the pipeline.

The rafale order has delivery starting after 36 months after order signing (freezing of work definition). Would you give them the same advice?

???

Why should I be bothered with the French. They can swig Chardoney and wear Denim made by "Whoever".