Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

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Cain Marko
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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Post by Cain Marko »

So, working jointly with a Russki effort at a late stage is a bad idea but all of a sudden its a much better idea to work with Japani gudiya? That too at such a late stage.....what exactly is India going to contribute here?
Austin
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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Post by Austin »

Cain Marko wrote:So, working jointly with a Russki effort at a late stage is a bad idea but all of a sudden its a much better idea to work with Japani gudiya? That too at such a late stage.....what exactly is India going to contribute here?
Japan wont really need india here , they can easily go to US for what ever they need and they are very strongly alligned with US , BTW what kind of JV did Japan worked with any country so far that are not part of formal US alliance ?

We still have 1000 % better chance to work with French or Saab for AMCA should such thing every come to that state then work with Japan.
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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Post by Cain Marko »

^ good points.....the need to collaborate for the amca to begin with is questionable. Hasn't India gained boat loads of experience via LCA? And pray what can we get from Japanese that can't be had from Russians or French who have far more experience in such products?

The big issue for amca will be engines.....if kaveri can be brought to par with snecma, the rest can be done in-house. The ge-414 is another possibility. Other than that, India should be able to manage within next 10-15 years.
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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Post by brar_w »

^ good points.....the need to collaborate for the amca to begin with is questionable. Hasn't India gained boat loads of experience via LCA? And pray what can we get from Japanese that can't be had from Russians or French who have far more experience in such products?
Exactly. And the same can be said of Japanese self-interest. They built the F-2 and have a MIC that can handle most of the industrial work as long as they get funding and time to create the eco-system as Lockheed, Boeing and Northrop Grumman have done around 5th generation products. What would AdA and HAL offer Japan compared to Lockheed Martin, Boeing, Airbus, SAAB or Northrop Grumman? You seek out foreign partnership, and/or assistance in order to shorten your own design, development and production cycle or gain access to technology that you don't really have the capability to develop within the project timelines.

If production volume is a concern you look to join an industrial program or partnership that gets you the economies of scale in and they did this with the F-35. If Japan decides to maintain strategic independence vis-a-vis its US alliance (on this project) it would not be practical for them to then let go of much of the capability, technology and production work to yet another nation. You then are neither here nor there when it comes to either strategic independence or industrial work to keep your MIC employed. India likewise would want a partner for any future that has plenty of experience in the things it needs to advance its own technological or production interests.
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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Post by Gyan »

It seems that DM has ordered tha M-4 Assault Rifles be imported under Make in India for CQB role under FMS
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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Post by Neshant »

You completely miss the point.

1) Japan's AF will not be able to absorb a self-made 5th gen fighter in large numbers to justify high R&D costs. They do not have economy of scale. Thus the work they do on their project is largely limited to modifying major sub-systems from overseas like the engine. Together however, the IAF and the JAF have economy of scale to purchase this plane in large numbers. US will not buy a Japanese plane nor will anyone else.

2) By working with the Japanese, we are not just handing over money and buying a ready made system with a "Made in India" label stuck to it. That will be the case if we cooperate with Russians, US, France..etc on a 5th gen plane. No matter what they claim, we'll be funding THEIR R&D and merely be buyers, not innovators of the plane's major technologies.

3) Since Japan has not built a 5th gen fighter. This is a GOOD thing. It allows for somewhat "equal" technological contribution to the project and real R&D innovation. They are obviously way ahead in many areas.

4) They are at a technology demonstrator stage with their F-3. That is where you want to join a project as it allows for (somewhat more risky) R&D on both sides with lower overall failure risk.

5) Its a great starting point for technological cooperation with one of the most technologically advanced nations on Earth. Just working with their companies will learn Indian companies (and certainly DRDO) a thing or two about management & project execution. It sets the stage for cooperation in the civilian aerospace sector as a partner rather than a subordinate/vestige which is what Boeing/Airbus wants India to be. AMCA should be a launchpad for India into the civil aerospace industry, not a leap into being a subordinate using cast-off technology of the western nations.

6) The end result, given their track record, is more than likely to be good.

In terms of bang for the buck (and I'm thinking more in terms of how India's aerospace R&D can be kick started), working with Japan offers greater gains than working with anyone else because it is challenging work. Otherwise its back to good old screw driver giri and sticking "Made in India" labels on foreign maal.
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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Post by Kashi »

Not sure where else to out this, The Econ. Times published a report on Raksha Mantri's press conference yesterday.

Strategic Partnership model to be finalised by Jan end, search on for another single engine fighter line: Manohar Parrikar
Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar today stated that the Defence Ministry’s strategic partnership (SP) model is likely to be finalised by the end of this month. Among other major issues he also said that India requires another single engine fighter jet line and this will be done under the SP model. Efforts are being made to identify the Indian company and Western partner for this work.

Parrikar also said that work is going on to provide the army with new assault rifles. And that India requires another single engine fighter jet line and this will be done under the SP model. Efforts are being made to identify the Indian company and Western partner for this work.

Parrikar also said that work is going on to provide the army with new assault rifles. And that India aims to become a major weapons exporter.

The developments were shared at a press conference in Delhi today. These were the highlights from the Defence Minister’s statements.

1)The SP model is in the final stage and is likely to be concluded this month. A meeting will be held next week to finalise it. He says the model would have been finalised in December but has been delayed by a month due to the year end.

2) Parrikar confirms India requires another single engine fighter line that will be done under the SP model.

3) The SP model is the Defence Ministry’s important Make in India policy. Under the model, the government is to select private Indian firms to exclusively manufacture military equipments for a specified period. The model was proposed by the Dhirendra Singh Committee in July, 2015. The Defence Ministry then formed an expert committee headed by former DRDO chief, VK Aatre, to formulate the criteria for selection of strategic partners. In April last year, the MOD made the Aatre report public.

4) Parrikar said the Indian company for the single engine fighter jet will be identified through the Aatre committee model. And the western partner for the new fighter line will depend on the Transfer of Technology (ToT) and the financial proposal of the Original Equipment Manufacturer..
So how long will it take to identify a "western partner" and why only a "western partner"?

5) Competitive process will be followed to select the western fighter to be made in India. The government to government deal will be inked after selection of the aircraft.
There's that word again "western", does it mean the partner has already been determined?

6) Parrikar makes it clear that a competition for twin engine made in India fighters will also be considered, but not this year.

7) Regarding the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) deal with Russia, Parrikar said aspects of production and technology transfer are being looked into before signing up for the aircraft.

8 ) He also refuted media reports on additional requirement/procurement of Rafale jets as speculative.

9) Parrikar said option for Tejas-Light Combat Aircraft Mark-2, an advanced version, has been kept open. He added the Naval LCA is to be developed only for technology demonstration.
Confirms what Naval Chief said. Perhaps the navy will get some new birds as well

10) Following the controversy of the new army chief, Gen Bipin Rawat, superseding a senior officer, Parrikar said the selection of the chief is the prerogative of the government. Although he added all the candidates were equally good.

11) Parrikar also said, “We aim to achieve a $2 billion defence export target by the end of this government’s term (2019).”

12) India’s Public Sector Undertakings (PSUs) to supply $300-400 million worth military equipments to friendly nations this year.

13) Indian conglomerate Larsen & Toubro (L&T) has signed some contracts with Vietnam for providing ships, which were discussed during a bilateral visit.

14) On possibility of defence exports to Afghanistan, Parrikar holds cards close to his chest and merely says Afghanistan is a good friend.

15) There has been an increase in Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) productivity this year, which is in arms and ammunition, not vehicles as was in the past. Parrikar said approval has been given for fast tracking the procurement of assault rifles for the Special Forces.

16) On a new assault rifle for the Army, Parrikar says four months have been given to the OFB to provide a new design. If this does not work, the procurement will be done under the fast track mode.
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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Post by brar_w »

4) Parrikar said the Indian company for the single engine fighter jet will be identified through the Aatre committee model. And the western partner for the new fighter line will depend on the Transfer of Technology (ToT) and the financial proposal of the Original Equipment Manufacturer..
So how long will it take to identify a "western partner" and why only a "western partner"?

5) Competitive process will be followed to select the western fighter to be made in India. The government to government deal will be inked after selection of the aircraft.
There's that word again "western", does it mean the partner has already been determined?

6) Parrikar makes it clear that a competition for twin engine made in India fighters will also be considered, but not this year.

7) Regarding the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) deal with Russia, Parrikar said aspects of production and technology transfer are being looked into before signing up for the aircraft.

8 ) He also refuted media reports on additional requirement/procurement of Rafale jets as speculative.

9) Parrikar said option for Tejas-Light Combat Aircraft Mark-2, an advanced version, has been kept open. He added the Naval LCA is to be developed only for technology demonstration.
Confirms what Naval Chief said. Perhaps the navy will get some new birds as well
Which non western medium sized, single engine multi role aircraft could compete? I think that they looked closely at the financial aspect of the MMRCA and determined that there was quite a bit of difference between a Gripen or F-16 at the lower end and the Typhoon and Rafale at the upper end in terms of Life Cycle Cost. Given the now expanded MMRCA requirement it would appear that if one were hell bound on exercising only imports than one could more affordably acquire larger quantities of F-16 or Gripens and smaller amounts of the more capable Rafale. That way you could grow end strength while also modernizing and getting advanced aircraft. Think of it as the 80% solution.

If indeed they are looking to do one twin and one single engined import program, I could see the Rafale being selected in lesser quantities a few years down the road although smaller quantities under MII will be problematic and frankly quite expensive. The biggest problem here is that if and when an entity like Tata, or Reliance get a hold of the F-16 or Gripen line their lobbying for continued production will start which can erode orders for the LCA MK2..The current MOD and the Government might have the strategic understanding to pursue indigenization at all costs but there is no guarantee that a future government wouldn't use an existing MRCA production line as an excuse to scale back its investment into medium-sized version of the LCA (MK2++) in the future.
Last edited by brar_w on 05 Jan 2017 06:38, edited 3 times in total.
Kashi
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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Post by Kashi »

^^ You are right, there are only two candidates- F16 and Gripen. But as you said, once TATA and L&T get used to having F16/Gripen orders in hand, it WILL have an impact on LCA. Unless the plan calls for 2 LCA for every 1 SP-model fighter that is inducted into the IAF. Far fetched though, it seems.
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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Post by Lalmohan »

is it clear that the 2nd fighter line will produce aircraft for the IAF? or just export?
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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Post by ramana »

Lalmohan, There will be eventually two more a/c lines;
- Near term single engine F-16 vs Grippen
- Medium term twin engine: Super Hornet vs Rafale
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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Post by Nick_S »

First LM F-16 line will probably go to Tata. What are the other potential companies for the second line? Mahindra?
It would be a complete waste for the second line to go to Reliance.
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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Post by ramana »

Nick_S wrote:First LM F-16 line will probably go to Tata. What are the other potential companies for the second line? Mahindra?
It would be a complete waste for the second line to go to Reliance.
Who ever delivers and convinces Modi.

Tata is also doubtful after the Corus disaster.
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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Post by JTull »

ramana wrote:
Nick_S wrote:First LM F-16 line will probably go to Tata. What are the other potential companies for the second line? Mahindra?
It would be a complete waste for the second line to go to Reliance.
Who ever delivers and convinces Modi.

Tata is also doubtful after the Corus disaster.
Rather sweeping statement on Corus! Care to elaborate on why it was a disaster and how it's related to setting up an assemply line ion India?
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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Post by Rakesh »

Better Buying Power For Defence Acquisitions In India
http://bharatshakti.in/better-buying-po ... -in-india/

By Lt Gen P R Shankar - a retired Director General of Artillery. He has vast operational experience and has held many important command, staff and instructional appointments in the Army. He is an alumnus of Defense Services Staff College Wellington, Army War College Mhow, Naval Post Graduate School Monterrey and National Defense College Delhi.

He gave great impetus to the modernization of Artillery through indigenization. He has a deep understanding and experience of successful defense planning and acquisition spanning over a decade. Major 155mm Gun projects like the Dhanush, M777 ULH and K9 Vajra, Rocket and Missile projects related to Pinaka, Brahmos and, Grad BM21, surveillance projects like Swati WLR and some ammunition projects came to fructification due to his efforts.
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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Post by Prem »

Rakesh
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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Post by Rakesh »

India has just bought $3 billion worth of emergency weapons and ammunition
http://www.huffingtonpost.in/2017/01/18 ... n-homepage
In a move with tremendous strategic import, India has been on a secretive weapons shopping spree on an emergency footing, buying up anti-tank missiles, tank engines, rocket launchers and various kinds of ammunition, from Israel and Russia. The purchases amount to more than $3 billion, persons close to the development said, asking not to be named. Deliveries have begun even as new orders are still being placed.
Empowered committees can take on-the-spot decisions to buy and negotiate prices, cutting down lengthy negotiation processes.
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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Post by Rakesh »

India & Russia to develop BrahMos missile for PAK FA 5th generation fighter jet
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/art ... 833757.cms
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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Post by Rakesh »

Deliveries of the BrahMos Cruise Missile to third countries may commence soon
http://www.defencenews.in/article.aspx?id=250153
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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Post by Austin »

Jaitley: Defence allocation of Rs. 2.74 lakh crore
tushar_m

Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Post by tushar_m »

Jaitley: Defence allocation of Rs. 2.74 lakh crore excluding Pensions

Defence Pension in 2016: A total of Rs 82,332 crore has been budgeted for defence pensions this time, mainly to cater for the announcement of One Rank One Pension (OROP) and the Seventh Pay Commission. In comparison, Rs 54,500 crore were allocated for pensions in the last budget but the actual bill shot up to Rs 60,238 crore.
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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Post by Austin »

Arun Jaitley raises defence budget by about 5.8% to Rs 2,74,000 crore

Read more at:
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/art ... aign=cppst
NEW DELHI: Finance Minister Arun Jaitley has increased the defence budget to Rs 2,74,000 crore excluding pensions. Out of this amount, about Rs 86,000 crore is for capital acquisition. Devoid of the pension outlay, the total defence budget for 2016-17 was Rs 2,49,000 crore.
86,000 crore = Thats almost USD 13 billion for Procurement/Capital acquisation
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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Post by Kashi »

Austin wrote:Arun Jaitley raises defence budget by about 5.8% to Rs 2,74,000 crore

Read more at:
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/art ... aign=cppst
NEW DELHI: Finance Minister Arun Jaitley has increased the defence budget to Rs 2,74,000 crore excluding pensions. Out of this amount, about Rs 86,000 crore is for capital acquisition. Devoid of the pension outlay, the total defence budget for 2016-17 was Rs 2,49,000 crore.
86,000 crore = Thats almost USD 13 billion for Procurement/Capital acquisation
If 2016-2017 budget was 2,49,000 crores and 2017-2018 budget is 2,74,000 crores, that is an increase of 25,000 crores or 10% no? Why does ET headline say 5.8%
jayasimha
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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Post by jayasimha »

Union Budget of India 2017-18 can be seen here.
http://indiabudget.gov.in/glance.asp
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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Post by rkhanna »

"If 2016-2017 budget was 2,49,000 crores and 2017-2018 budget is 2,74,000 crores, that is an increase of 25,000 crores or 10% no? Why does ET headline say 5.8%"

Maybe adjusting for Inflation? Lets assume 10% increase we are at 5% inflation and Capex being Forex Heavy Rupee sees 5-6% Depreciation in a year. IMO real Def Budget is zero growth.
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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Post by Austin »

Indian defence budget increases by 5.6%
Craig Caffrey, London - IHS Jane's Defence Industry
01 February 2017

The Indian government has announced a core defence budget of INR2.74 trillion (USD40.6 billion) for 2017/18. The new budget allocation represents a nominal increase of 5.6% against the revised budget for 2016/17, the lowest rate of increase for a decade.

The core defence budget will amount to around 12% of total government spending for the fiscal year and about 1.6% of GDP. Total defence-related expenditure, including military pensions, will rise to INR3.59 trillion (USD53.1 billion), around 2.2% of GDP.

The total allocation for defence includes four components: the Ministry of Defence (MoD) budget (which covers the operating expenditure of the civilian ministry and its related agencies); defence services revenue budget (comprising the operating costs of the military, including pay); defence services capital budget (which funds the majority of equipment procurement and development for the armed services); and the defence pensions budget (covering the costs of military pensions).
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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Post by Rakesh »

Details of DRDO's Man-Portable Anti-Tank Guided Missile (MPATGM)
http://thestrategictimes.com/exclusive- ... d-missile/
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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Post by Gyan »

I think unlike last year you need to deduct DRDO budget hence increase is 25000 less 15000 DRDO budget = 10000 crore only.
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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Post by kit »

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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Post by Nikhil T »

Kashi wrote:
Austin wrote:Arun Jaitley raises defence budget by about 5.8% to Rs 2,74,000 crore

Read more at:
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/art ... aign=cppst



86,000 crore = Thats almost USD 13 billion for Procurement/Capital acquisation
If 2016-2017 budget was 2,49,000 crores and 2017-2018 budget is 2,74,000 crores, that is an increase of 25,000 crores or 10% no? Why does ET headline say 5.8%
http://ajaishukla.blogspot.ie/2017/02/m ... fence.html
While apparently increased by Rs 7,281 crore, from Rs 79,207 crore this year to Rs 86,488 crore in 2017-18, about a nine per cent hike, this has been achieved by under-spending the current year’s capital allocation.

The Rs 86,189 crore capital budget allocation this year, is scaled down in the revised estimates to Rs 79,207 crore, which means the defence ministry has underspent its equipment modernisation budget by almost Rs 7,000 crore, some 8 per cent of its allocation.
We have an unchanged Capital Budget in last 3 years. Never thought this would happen in a BJP Govt.
Ack thoo!
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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Post by Austin »

Many times the decision making process not just from our side but the other side as well with whom we are making deal might get stuck due to genuine reason and it is not possible to allocate money for the same reason , You cant really transfer money till negotiation is done and all Dots and I's are agreed upon , many deal are multiyear negotiation deal and you cant anticipate many thing in advance like Rafale deal for which initial capex was allocated for past 2 years but could not be used as negotiation took time.

So expecting each and every penny of Capex to get used for every year is not really possible for any government , I recollect during congress time half of capex used to remain unused and returned to government by end of FY.

They can play safe and dump that money with some PSU like OFB , BHEL etc and can reuse it later if they cant spend the whole capex but FM would be more than happy to get that money back to reduce their budget deficit.
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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Post by Nikhil T »

It is false to say "under Congress rule half of capex used to remained unused and returned to Govt at end of FY". It varied between 5-20%.

Further, this is not a Congress vs BJP thing. The point is something different - there is no excuse for not increasing the Capital Allocation beyond ~80k crore for last 3 years. It typically grows 15-20%, so had we continued the trend we would have been at 110K crore Capital Allocation this year.
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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Post by Pratyush »

Rakesh wrote:Details of DRDO's Man-Portable Anti-Tank Guided Missile (MPATGM)
http://thestrategictimes.com/exclusive- ... d-missile/

Hasn't the Indian army already ordered spike? So will the procurement budget have scope for a second missile in the same class.
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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Post by Rakesh »

Create unit outside Defence Ministry to fast-track defence deals: Panel to tell Govt
http://indianexpress.com/article/india/ ... t-4505063/
Defence acquisitions have been stuck in a long-drawn spiral with major procurements like the Rafale fighters or M-777 howitzers taking nearly a decade to fructify.
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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Post by Kakkaji »

Indo-UK made new Hawk combat aircraft looks to take on China
NEW DELHI: India and the United Kingdom have jointly developed a combat ready aircraft that will be on offer to neighbouring countries, countering growing Chinese penetration of the defence market in the region.

A jointly developed, dual role version of the Hawk trainer aircraft will make its debut later this month, with an Indo-UK combine targeting export markets for the versatile plane.
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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Post by Ankit Desai »

Urgent arms deals of Rs 20,000 crore inked to keep forces ready

http://m.timesofindia.com/india/urgent- ... 990170.cms

-Ankit
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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Post by JTull »

Airbus to strengthen ‘Make in India‘ programme
Airbus’ industrial partnerships with Indian companies under the ‘Make in India’ programme will set the tone of its participation at the 11th edition of Aero India to be held at the Air Force Station Yelahanka, Bengaluru, India from 14th -18th of February 2017.

Pierre de Bausset, President and Managing Director at Airbus India, said: “The future of Indian aerospace and defence industry rests on the realization of the ‘Make in India’ vision. I look forward to having conversations around the topic at Aero India. We have partnered with Tata and Mahindra and are working with a host of other companies to script ‘Make in India’ success stories.”

Visitors at the Airbus stand will get a first-hand account of Airbus’ industrial engagement with India which yields over $500 million (approx. Rs. 3,400 crores) in procurement from India annually from around 45 suppliers, generating local employment for more than 6,000 people. To illustrate the scale of co-operation, Airbus can claim that each of its commercial aircraft produced today is partly Made-in-India.

The potential of Airbus & India partnership is bigger and this will be exhibited in the form of scale models of the C295W military transport aircraft and the AS565 MBe Panther helicopter.

As part of the Avro replacement programme of the Ministry of Defence, Airbus will support Tata Advanced Systems Limited (TASL) in setting-up a final assembly line for the C295W in India, once the contract is awarded. Airbus has tied-up with Mahindra Defence to create India’s first private sector company for manufacturing military helicopters. Making India the global hub for ‘Panther’ manufacturing – producing Panthers in India, for the domestic market as well as for exports – is proposed under the Naval Utility Helicopter programme.

According to Airbus, there are around 590 A320neo on order from India which means, on overage, one aircraft will be delivered to India per week over the next 10 years.
If Govt is really committed to the 'Make in India' programme, why not give a subsidy and get these assembled in India.
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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Post by Austin »

Any one having access to full Janes writeup

India-US technology initiative moving slowly

http://www.janes.com/article/67580/indi ... ing-slowly
The India-US Defence Technology and Trade Initiative (DTTI) to jointly develop and manufacture US military equipment in India has registered incremental progress since its initiation in 2012.

Aimed at furthering defence co-operation between two strategic allies, shorn of bureaucratic delays from either side, the DTTI has languished owing to enduring shortcomings by the respective entities that co-ordinate the initiative, according to industry sources.

This includes vacillation in decision-making by India's Department of Defence Production (DDP), which functions under the Ministry of Defence (MoD), and concerns that the US Under Secretary of Defense for Acquisition, Technology, and Logistics, or USD (AT&L), has been offering low-grade technologies.
Singha
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Re: Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments

Post by Singha »

china got itself the tianjin a320 final assembly line to learn and steal from on the back of similar few 100 orders a decade ago.

time to play hardball with airbus than just give our money away
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