Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 11 Jan 2017 01:40

Cybaru wrote: So the given 6 screens and 360/6 = 60 degrees may not be the way things get done.

It is not.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 25 Jan 2017 23:18

So, the DRDO - Embraer AEW&C has a name. It's the Netra and will be named publicly for the first time tomorrow.
https://twitter.com/livefist/status/824233529127108609

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 26 Jan 2017 21:18

Netra at Republic Day flown by senior IAF test pilots -- Group Captain Badhrish Athreya & Group Captain Pradeep Batra
https://twitter.com/livefist/status/824522783610658816

ranjan.rao · Post by **ranjan.rao** » 26 Jan 2017 22:30

nethra is also the name of UAV, would have preferrred something more communal like "Agna Chakra"

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 26 Jan 2017 22:39

Netra! That's why order is restricted to 3. Because you know.... Shiva

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 12 Feb 2017 03:11

Aero India 2017: IAF to get first prying plane on Feb 14
http://english.mathrubhumi.com/news/ind ... -1.1723344

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 12 Feb 2017 22:20

They keep saying that India is behind China and Pukes in AEW! Why isn't IAF asking DRDO to make 20 more of these?

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 12 Feb 2017 22:21

India to make six more AWACS on Airbus platform

"Once the Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) clears and the Cabinet Committee for Security approves the proposal, the six AWACS will be made in seven years after the contract is signed with Airbus Defence & Space," Chairman of the state-run Defence Research & Development Organisation (DRDO) S. Christopher told IANS here.

Estimated to cost Rs 20,000 crore ($3 billion), the AWACS will have 300-km range and 360 degree angle of coverage as against 200-km range and 240 degree angle of Airborne Early Warning and Control System (AEW&C) the DRDO has built on the Brazilian Embraer-145 modified jet for the Indian Air Force (IAF).

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 12 Feb 2017 22:44

Vivek K wrote:They keep saying that India is behind China and Pukes in AEW! Why isn't IAF asking DRDO to make 20 more of these?

I presume that they didn't care for something in the smaller platform.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 12 Feb 2017 23:11

Vivek K wrote:They keep saying that India is behind China and Pukes in AEW! Why isn't IAF asking DRDO to make 20 more of these?

+12....if not 20 at least 6 more.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 13 Feb 2017 00:15

ACCESS: Up Close With India’s EMB-145i AEW&C
http://www.livefistdefence.com/2015/02/ ... i-aew.html

EXCLUSIVE: Indonesia Gets In Line For India’s New AEW&C Jet
http://www.livefistdefence.com/2017/02/ ... c-jet.html

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 13 Feb 2017 00:46

Same links Rakesh. Can you fix the first link? Does it have pics from inside?

kit · Post by **kit** » 13 Feb 2017 01:39

NRao wrote:India to make six more AWACS on Airbus platform

"Once the Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) clears and the Cabinet Committee for Security approves the proposal, the six AWACS will be made in seven years after the contract is signed with Airbus Defence & Space," Chairman of the state-run Defence Research & Development Organisation (DRDO) S. Christopher told IANS here.

Estimated to cost Rs 20,000 crore ($3 billion), the AWACS will have 300-km range and 360 degree angle of coverage as against 200-km range and 240 degree angle of Airborne Early Warning and Control System (AEW&C) the DRDO has built on the Brazilian Embraer-145 modified jet for the Indian Air Force (IAF).

the 300 km range seems quite conservative for a system with 4 AESA radars and a dedicated engine to power the whole setup !! .. 300 miles is more like it

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 13 Feb 2017 01:46

No country releases their awacs ranges. It's always top secret, so don't worry about random figures out of newspaper reports.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 13 Feb 2017 01:50

Cybaru wrote:Same links Rakesh. Can you fix the first link? Does it have pics from inside?

Link's in the article. No interior pics though.

http://www.livefistdefence.com/2015/02/ ... i-aew.html

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 13 Feb 2017 02:19

Cybaru wrote:Same links Rakesh. Can you fix the first link? Does it have pics from inside?

Sorry dude! I fixed it now. No interior pics. I doubt you will see one either.

I have seen only one pic - on the internet - of the interior of the Phalcon. Screens were all turned off.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 13 Feb 2017 02:24

Screen turned off is fine! that is what I have seen, every time I have toured awacs.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 13 Feb 2017 03:50

Awesome shot of Netra!

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 13 Feb 2017 10:57

Can't understand why an A-330 is required when a smaller platform like an EMB/Bombardier/SAAB will do.We will be able to double the number of AEW aircraft available .If a larger platform is required,then the IL-476s which are being used for the Phalcons will make it easier to support.They should actually cost far less than the A-330ss as well! By going in for A-330s,we will be adding yet another type to the fleet. The Airbus tankers decision was also rescinded some time ago on the cost factor.Is this a back-door entry/deal for Airbus?

Neshant · Post by **Neshant** » 13 Feb 2017 11:19

India should work with friendly SE Asian countries to standardize some military equipment so it can be jointly developed & produced at lower costs.

Both India & Indonesia have similar security concerns of keeping sea lanes open from the Indian ocean down through the Straits of Malacca and through the South China sea.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 13 Feb 2017 11:30

Best is always enemy of good enough. 8 or 12 of these would be a sweet spot and keep things stable while a330 conversion only for indian market takes its own decade.

Zynda · Post by **Zynda** » 13 Feb 2017 14:51

Agree...need fewer more than 3 while the true blue AWACS will take longer duration. Perhaps the plan is to induct more Phalcon AWACS in lieu of Netra!

But the kind of encouragement shown by GoI/MoD in promoting this product internationally indicates that its performance meets or exceeds satisfaction. Shouldn't be any excuses not to induct Netra in larger numbers (6-8 at least).

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 13 Feb 2017 15:08

Philip wrote:Can't understand why an A-330 is required when a smaller platform like an EMB/Bombardier/SAAB will do.

Range and Time on station perhaps ?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 13 Feb 2017 15:26

well the EMB145 based in agra/nagpur/panagarh etc should have no problem in doing the missions of the IL76 which is not exactly a fuel sipper. both have AAR.

IL76-with ps90 engine has a 5000km range with 52t payload..some say 4500km.

the ERJ145 has a range of 3000-3500km.

if they have managed to fit the cargo hold with some additional fuel like sukhoi superjet the range could be more....the saab2000 of the TSP also has 3200km range.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Ero1CA_Vd7U/T ... on_195.jpg

probably the IAF wants unrefuelled 12 hr time on station with a 30 min transit from base to patrol area.
it would have roomy rest area for a 2nd full crew of around 15.

that only the A330/777 types can provide with their massive 13000km range with full load and upto 20,000km empty

a pair of these puppies would be running alternate 12 hr shifts over northern sector, another pair over central and another over eastern to lock down the PLAAF on a wide 3000km swathe. the phalcons and ERJs(we still need 12!) would probably generate redundant coverage over some sectors...and go closer in to generate on demand cover deeper into tibet for strike a/c

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 13 Feb 2017 15:40

The fact that AEW&C are to be based in Bhisiana, close to Bhatinda, which is under 100 km from the border, should tell you about how these birds are to be used.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 13 Feb 2017 16:20

Manish_P wrote:
Philip wrote:Can't understand why an A-330 is required when a smaller platform like an EMB/Bombardier/SAAB will do.
Range and Time on station perhaps ?

Larger platforms also allow larger sensors and provide greater space, weight and power (additional sources). This allows you to not only stay up longer, but also provide surveillance over a much larger area with fewer orbits.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 13 Feb 2017 22:19

Photo credit: Prasun Sengupta

sudeepj · Post by **sudeepj** » 13 Feb 2017 23:13

rohitvats wrote:The fact that AEW&C are to be based in Bhisiana, close to Bhatinda, which is under 100 km from the border, should tell you about how these birds are to be used.

JSTARS?

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 14 Feb 2017 03:41

rohitvats wrote:The fact that AEW&C are to be based in Bhisiana, close to Bhatinda, which is under 100 km from the border, should tell you about how these birds are to be used.

Holy Crap .... Bathinda is spitting distance from the border with a holding corps.
If that place is not gonna invite trouble (from PAF) then what is....

Any AWAC platform better be protected by a swarm of fighters.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 14 Feb 2017 08:45

Khalsa wrote:
rohitvats wrote:The fact that AEW&C are to be based in Bhisiana, close to Bhatinda, which is under 100 km from the border, should tell you about how these birds are to be used.
Holy Crap .... Bathinda is spitting distance from the border with a holding corps.
If that place is not gonna invite trouble (from PAF) then what is....

Any AWAC platform better be protected by a swarm of fighters.

Bigger danger might come from short ranged BMs and CMs, very very short response time. Nevertheless I'd expect these bases will be defended quite comprehensively. Fighter caps, LRSAM (which might have limited ABM capbility), Akash, Spyder. Upgraded pechoras too?

But seems like a real aggressive posture to keep AEW so far forward - IAF must be intending to dominate and fight the air war entirely over TSP space.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 14 Feb 2017 12:12

brar_w wrote:
Manish_P wrote:
Range and Time on station perhaps ?
Larger platforms also allow larger sensors and provide greater space, weight and power (additional sources). This allows you to not only stay up longer, but also provide surveillance over a much larger area with fewer orbits.

Yes. For the radar alone you get a larger gain antenna for more energy transmitted and received across more of the radio spectrum. More crew capacity to reduce workload and operate in shifts.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 14 Feb 2017 12:22

Khalsa wrote:
rohitvats wrote:The fact that AEW&C are to be based in Bhisiana, close to Bhatinda, which is under 100 km from the border, should tell you about how these birds are to be used.
Holy Crap .... Bathinda is spitting distance from the border with a holding corps.
If that place is not gonna invite trouble (from PAF) then what is....

Any AWAC platform better be protected by a swarm of fighters.

We have to remember that these will not just be used during any potential hostilities, but significantly during peace time. An AWACS is a defensive weapon system that will allow constant surveillance of the adversary to quantitatively characterize their air defense assets.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 14 Feb 2017 15:10

Why is no one complaining that the Embraer is one more new aicraft type in an air force with too many types of aircraft? And that too only 3? Remember - the air force cannot handle so many aircraft types no? Why not eliminate it on those grounds? Pesky little minds want to know.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 14 Feb 2017 15:19

^^ I guess they went with what was available to them and who were willing to help , So we might have future AWACS fleet based on IL-76 , Embraer and A-330 , 3 onlee

sum · Post by **sum** » 14 Feb 2017 16:06

So we might have future AWACS fleet based on IL-76 , Embraer and A-330 , 3 onlee

Does any other AF operate 3 distinct aircrafts( with no shred of commanality) only for AWACs roles?

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 14 Feb 2017 16:36

You have to go with he options you have at any given time. Certainly it was not a deliberate attempt on part of the IAF to diversify the platforms. Once the A330 is delivered and is inducted they will standardize around it.

A Deshmukh · Post by **A Deshmukh** » 14 Feb 2017 18:37

sum wrote:
So we might have future AWACS fleet based on IL-76 , Embraer and A-330 , 3 onlee
Does any other AF operate 3 distinct aircrafts( with no shred of commanality) only for AWACs roles?

Embraer is more like LSP, before the real thing.
Now that the radars are ready, IAF should go the bigger aircrafts.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 14 Feb 2017 22:57

shiv wrote:Why is no one complaining that the Embraer is one more new aicraft type in an air force with too many types of aircraft? And that too only 3? Remember - the air force cannot handle so many aircraft types no? Why not eliminate it on those grounds? Pesky little minds want to know.

Commonality, wherever possible should be pursued.

AEWs and AWACS can't have common platforms. But two different platforms for AWACS is obviously not ideal. If only the service-records of IL-76s were any better, then there was no reason to go for the A-330s. The development would have been much simpler and shorter. Aircraft modifications and sensors placements are known, tried, tested and operationalized. IAF is going for A-330s only because it has no faith in the IL-76 platforms. It has moved away from it in transport, refuelers and now AWACS. The fact that there are many A-330s flying around also helps its cause.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 14 Feb 2017 23:14

Fighter types, MiG-21 MF, Bis, Bison, 23, 27, 29, Jaguar, Mirage 2000, LCA, Rafale, Su-30 MKI- 11 types with some sub variants

AWACs- IL-78, Embraer A330 3 types

Which is a challenge

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 14 Feb 2017 23:15

Aren't we getting two more il-76 based platforms pushing the total to 5?