AMCA News and Discussions

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nirav
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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Post by nirav »

A review of the LCA is needed.
If we choose to continue on the same path, there is no way of a 2035 service date !

It's acknowledged that unless and until FSED starts, the project hadn't been sanctioned.

That I believe has NOT happened for the AMCA.

Once that's done, 8-10 years to first flight is industry standard.
Then comes the most difficult part, certifying it. Another decade at the minimum,might be more.
And finally then,production.

We are in 2017, the engine hadn't been selected yet.not sure if the design is too.and there is no FSED.
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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Post by nam »

I have the opinion, (at the risk of getting some angry responses), that IAF is not interested in AMCA.

I hear manpower shortages in ADA when we happily waste 200 million on T-50 with zero output.

Until GOI/IAF massively expands resources on AMCA, this is another wild goose chase by IAF.
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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Post by nirav »

I agree.
I also agree with your risk assessment.
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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Post by deejay »

nam wrote:I have the opinion, (at the risk of getting some angry responses), that IAF is not interested in AMCA.

I hear manpower shortages in ADA when we happily waste 200 million on T-50 with zero output.

Until GOI/IAF massively expands resources on AMCA, this is another wild goose chase by IAF.
:) I heard the chief yesterdin and some other senior guys - they are banking on the AMCA. I'll see if I can scan a copy of the interview published in one of the Aero Show news dailies.
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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Post by nirav »

deejay wrote:
nam wrote:I have the opinion, (at the risk of getting some angry responses), that IAF is not interested in AMCA.

I hear manpower shortages in ADA when we happily waste 200 million on T-50 with zero output.

Until GOI/IAF massively expands resources on AMCA, this is another wild goose chase by IAF.
:) I heard the chief yesterdin and some other senior guys - they are banking on the AMCA. I'll see if I can scan a copy of the interview published in one of the Aero Show news dailies.
deejay saar,
this is music to my ears.
hope it qualifies as ample 'support' by the IAF.Eagerly awaiting the interview ;)
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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Post by nam »

deejay wrote: I heard the chief yesterdin and some other senior guys - they are banking on the AMCA. I'll see if I can scan a copy of the interview published in one of the Aero Show news dailies.
I want to believe it, however I cant until I see real money. Forget money, I would believe when ADA puts a proposal to double it's workforce.
As we have seen countless articles on "We are forced to buy Rafale because LCA is late", the 2035 version will be "We are forced to buy Neuron because AMCA is late".

Just like LCA, probably IAF want AMCA to be number filler to control the cost. If the GDP is 4 times of today, dont think even money would one of the problems.
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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Post by ShauryaT »

What if we focus AMCA to be an unmanned stealthy sensor detector, so with an AESA, IR, EOTS, RF, RWR, ESM, ECM providing the observation and orientation functions. But let the decision and action functions be controlled by a larger aircraft, staying a few 100 KM's from the sensor detector. The larger aircraft would have the sensor fusion functions on larger processors, with the ability to carry all type of LR A2A, A2G missiles and subsequently uses the stealthy sensor detector craft to cue in these long range weapons.

Advantages:

1. Such an unmanned stealthy AMCA would be cheaper to build and deploy. It would not need supercruise or even supersonic. No sensor fusion needed on the craft. No subsequent safety measures. Being relatively cheaper and unmanned the risk of it being shot down is affordable. You can deploy in mass.
2. All this data being collected from multiple sensor drones is collected and fused on a much large system, say on an IL-76 or C-130 type, let us call this the mother ship
3. Based on mission profile, the C-130 may stock up with A2G or ER BVR A2A weapons or both.
4. The mother ship is also accompanied by 4G fighters as backup
4. The costs for this system in offensive mode would be the relatively low cost sensor detectors and the relatively low cost A2G weapons. The ability to carry them in mass on larger mother ships or non stealthy fighters would be an advantage that will overwhelm most SAM systems.
5. In A2A mode, the cueing offered by the unmanned sensor detector will raise the pK of BVR missiles.

What's the purpose of this. The costs to build a bull blown 5G fighter with all its gizmos for India in meaningful timeframes is not an easy exercise. We are at least 20 years away from it. Instead, should we not focus on building an aircraft that can penetrate enemy air space but yet does not have the all the qualities of a fighter to escape if detected and that is affordable. Also focus on LR, low cost mass deployable weapons.

One huge issue with all 5G fighters is the payload they can carry, while remaining stealthy. The costs simply go up astronomically, when trying to build all this capabilities of a fighter, A2G, sensor detector and fusion on one single manned platform.

Thoughts?
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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Post by nam »

ShauryaT wrote:What if we focus AMCA to be an unmanned stealthy sensor detector
Thoughts?
Like this :D

Image
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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Post by NRao »

deejay wrote:
nam wrote:I have the opinion, (at the risk of getting some angry responses), that IAF is not interested in AMCA.

I hear manpower shortages in ADA when we happily waste 200 million on T-50 with zero output.

Until GOI/IAF massively expands resources on AMCA, this is another wild goose chase by IAF.
:) I heard the chief yesterdin and some other senior guys - they are banking on the AMCA. I'll see if I can scan a copy of the interview published in one of the Aero Show news dailies.
Always has been.

Which is why, abut 2 years or so ago, I had said treat the LCA as a tech demo and pack it off.

What is crucial is when do they expect the AMCA to be inducted. 2035 is a slide. And, I suspect it is due to the sequential thinking of HAL/DRDO/ADA/whoever.
nam wrote:
ShauryaT wrote:What if we focus AMCA to be an unmanned stealthy sensor detector
Thoughts?
Like this :D

Image
AMCA can never go back to that. That is a pre 4th Gen paper concept model. Dependent on TVC, which India does not have even today.

ShauryaT sir,

Diff AFs have diff requirements (nothing new there). However, their definitions differ. So, the IAF has a need for "Super-cruise", BUT it was a requirement for entering and exiting a local fist fight, NOT for taking a 5th Gen plane from the East to the West (which is what say the USAF would use it for).

I just HOPE that no one meddles with the AMCA. IT IS the very best effort put forth by India, no two ways about. I would like it to be an independent effort from the LCA - which I do not see happening (too much politics). Granted that the funds are not there to support both at the same time (which is why I would prefer to cut short the LCA - the MK2 is too late to the game IMHO) (that for teh LCA thread).

They never talk much about it and the head of the AMCA project is camera shy (Excellent). But, from what little is out there, the small effort put into the AMCA is much cleaner than the LCA (IMVVHO). From what I can see, the AMCA will beat the FGFA is all aspects (the assumption is India will have access to some sensors that India cannot produce - yet and of course the engine).
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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Post by Karan M »

Guys please take your beliefs about what AMCA should be to the IMA thread or some other one and let this be focused on actual news and details. Waiting for AI details
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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Post by dkhare »

NRao wrote:I vaguely recall reading that the AESA is chanted to reduce reflections. In fact, IIRC even in a mechanism that supports movement of the face, in an idle position, the face always droops.
That makes sense. I was wondering about this a few pages ago. Thanks for this nugget...
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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Post by Indranil »

I agree with Karan. Please keep your ideas of what AMCA should be to design your own fighter thread.
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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Post by NRao »

What's the purpose of this. The costs to build a bull blown 5G fighter with all its gizmos for India in meaningful timeframes is not an easy exercise. We are at least 20 years away from it. Instead, should we not focus on building an aircraft that can penetrate enemy air space but yet does not have the all the qualities of a fighter to escape if detected and that is affordable. Also focus on LR, low cost mass deployable weapons.
I cannot talk to the sensor package. But the AMCA can be built, etc much faster. We tend to forget that a LOT of work has been done for the past 10 years. This is not a project like the LCA, where there was a lack of a variety of things, most important the learning curve was very steep.

The AMCA, placed a time scale, is a way more mature product.
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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Post by shiv »

nam wrote:
Image
In 2017 this image looks like nangananga child to me
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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Post by NRao »

Do Boeing, GE have US permission to Make in India?
..........................

Pearson is betting on the over 700 engineers who work on design and take charge of manufacturing parts of GE's commercial aero engines, at its India centre in Bengaluru, to push for local co-development of the engine for AMCA, which ADA is developing.

India has begun preliminary design work on the stealth aircraft, but has not launched a programme officially.

GE is looking to partner with ADA, but it also requires a US government approval to collaborate on military programmes before its Bengaluru team can work on the jet engine programme.

The Bengaluru team has worked on the GE-9D engine that powers the Boeing 777 planes and the engine that powers the A380 aircraft. It is also developing the 9X, which the local team in India is collaborating on for the replacement engine of Boeing 777-9D.

"The foundation is already here built over 17 years," said Pearson.

GE, which has a manufacturing facility in Pune whose 40 per cent contribution is engine components, says it could meet the mandated 50 per cent requirement of local production for defence contracts within India.

"We can deliver on our commitments as and when we see more orders," said Alok Nanda, general manager, (India engineering operations) at GE.
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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Post by NRao »

Will Need Larger Rafale Order For True Make In India: Dassault CEO
France is in discussions to assist India with its next generation Advanced Multi-role Combat Aircraft (AMCA) as part of the offset obligations of the Rafale fighter jet deal, Dassault CEO Eric Trappier has said.
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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Post by Viv S »

Its good to see ADA being realistic about its targets. Its often hurt its credibility badly by making promises on delivery that it knew (or ought to have known) weren't doable. Though given the timelines it may be more practical to focus on a UCAV (AURA) instead rather than reinvent the wheel.

AMCA:
First flight - 2030
Low Rate Production - 2035
Series production/IOC ~ 2040

(Just for context; the F-35 production is scheduled to conclude in 2037. Roughly coinciding with the advent of the F/A-XX or alternative 6th gen models.)

EXCLUSIVE: India’s 5th Gen AMCA Targets 2030
Shiv Aroor Feb 16 2017

Cmde C.D. Balaji, chief at the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) met with Livefist at the Aero India show for a chat on the programme. ‘This will be our first big learning process. We need to be sure about the conformal antennas and shapes before we finalise the airframe,’ he says. Another very crucial application the team plans to bring into play is computational electromagnetics, to simulate in parallel how the concept jet deals with radar and other assaults built to beat stealth.

‘About 60-70% of the stealth we intend will come from the aircraft’s shape. The rest we are discovering as we develop the aircraft. Nothing like this has ever been attempted before,’ Balaji says. An AMCA model debuted at Aero India 2009, the first time anyone got a sense of what the ADA was looking to build.

The team at ADA expects full-scale engineering development till the prototype stage to take at least a decade. Livefist also learnt that the team now has a specific timeframe for a first flight: 2030, with low-rate production to begin in 2035. ‘If you consider that the LCA Mk.1 will be built till 2024 and the LCA Mk.2, when ordered, should be built between 2030-35, then 2035 is good target for production of the AMCA,’ Balaji says.
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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Post by brar_w »

Not sure what to make of this. Does he mean they will offer cooperation or compete if one is sought? If they are already involved it will jeopardize GE' and perhaps even RR's involvement when it comes to propulsion enhancements.

Russia will take part in the creation of the Indian aircraft 5th generation AMCA
BANGALORE / India / 16 February. / TASS /. Russia will take part in the creation of the Indian aircraft fifth generation Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA), told reporters director of international cooperation and regional policy of the state corporation "Rostec" Victor treasure. "We will participate for sure," - he said, responding to a question.
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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Post by NRao »

^^^^^^

Russians have always had a role via TVC. I think he is hedging (wisely) in case the US offer, which hinges on the F-16 deal, falls through. Given that the FGFA is in cold storage and ADA has always maintained AMCA is 5.5 gen I doubt there is much to gain, there are a few things to gain for sure, from Russia.

AMCA:
First flight - 2030
Low Rate Production - 2035
Series production/IOC ~ 2040

(Just for context; the F-35 production is scheduled to conclude in 2037. Roughly coinciding with the advent of the F/A-XX or alternative 6th gen models.)
How about the Chinese? They could have about a 100 stealth machines by 2030.



I think India needs to field a 60% 5th gen ASAP. And not wait to perfect every component.
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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Post by brar_w »

For the lack of knowledge, what exactly (attributes) makes the AMCA a 5.5 generation platform? For that matter besides directed energy applications, what really provides that half a generation of leap in requirements?
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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Post by negi »

The timeframe by it is supposed to come it better be 5.5 otherwise log kya kahenge :)
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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Post by NRao »

ON "5.5", to be fair, it was mentioned in relation to the FGFA. So, there could have been some political angle to that. Dunno.

On Balaji saying all this, two things come to mind:

1) I thought the AMCA team was diff. ????????
2) So, speculation on my part, but, I think Balaji is trying to protect the LCA MK2 (which I think is dead in the water). The AMCA team had requested the release of funds. That request was not granted. And, there was the notion of LCA Mk1 -> LCA Mk2 -> AMCA. But that was 2011ish(?) and the MK2 was supposed to have been completed by 2020 or thereabouts.

Well, along came LCA Mk1A, which pushed the LCA Mk2, which is to be expected.

3) I suspect the AMCA group has made sufficient noise for Balaji to make this statement. IF the AMCA group gets some funds, it should mean those funds are diverted from the Mk2. And, that is causing teh pain within the Mk2 group = Balaji.

????
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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Post by NRao »

ADA CONTINUES TO WORK ON STEALTHY AMCA

Seems more like the original news items:
Director of New Delhi’s Aeronautic Development Agency C.D. Balaji says that the great majority of work for the shape of the AMCA has been completed.

The biggest challenge involves the development of Radar Absorbent Material (RAM).

..................................................

The engine has not been determined, but is likely to be either the General Electric F414, which powers the Boeing F/A-18 E/F Super Hornet, or the Eurojet EJ200, which powers the Eurofighter Typhoon.

At the 2015 iteration of Aero India, an ADA official told that an advanced version of a local engine, the Gas Turbine Research Establishment Kaveri, could eventually be used in AMCA.

............................

Balaji says that once the engine is determined, it will take three or four more years to develop the aircraft.

The first flight for the AMCA is planned for 2025. This marks a notable retreat from the ADA’s position in 2013, when a first flight was expected by the end of the decade.
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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Post by arshyam »

Pls excuse if already posted, this thread's got a life of its own of late.. :)

Image
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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Post by arshyam »

Image
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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Post by arshyam »

I just love those smooth lines...

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Post by NRao »

As a data point on the engine for the AMCA, as it relates to the F414. From liveFist.

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Post by brar_w »

The sheer number of platforms that will end up using the F404/414 family is going to be quite impressive. Add the F414 on the KAI KF-X and the F404 for the USAF T-X. Most likely the USN MQ-25 will use either the 404 or 414 as well.
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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Post by Cybaru »

So they are talking about a higher thrust engine for AMCA. That is interesting data point.
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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Post by Cybaru »

NRao wrote: The first flight for the AMCA is planned for 2025. This marks a notable retreat from the ADA’s position in 2013, when a first flight was expected by the end of the decade.
Just because there is talk doesn't mean the prototype can happen. IAF hasn't chosen the engines yet. Once they decide on that, work can happen around the chosen engine. Perhaps the PAKFA saga has delayed things for other projects as well.
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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Post by brar_w »

Regardless of what engine they pick they'll likely look at an uprated or most advanced version working closely with the aircraft design team. They don't have to fly the demonstrators or prototype aircraft with the definitive version of the engine. If it' the F414, you could build a prototype around the F414, and wait till the F414-Enhanced is ready with the changes that are agreed upon along with the design team. Same with the Eurojet or any other engine that they may look at. If the USN goes and ahead and funds the Enhanced version of the F414 you could have something in a flight test program by 2021-2022.

On Korea's KF-X GE has proposed number of engine enhancements that build on the baseline F-414 they deliver. This lines up nicely with the KF-X plans to incrementally add 5th generation capability. No doubt that both GE and KAI/DAPA would pick up from where the USN funds GE given that they will leverage what the USN develops for its vast 414 fleet that it expects to sustain through the 2040's and with the their testing and certification infrastructure.

Image
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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Post by NRao »

What might have helped is if the 3rd bullet point mentioned that the engine "delivered for the LCA MK2" was the GE F414 INS6. And that the "Derivative option engine for the AMCA" is proposed to be an enhanced version of the INS6.

Undoubtedly it would still have a lot in common with any other F414, but that distinction, IMHO, needs to be made, even though it is a subtle one.

Also, the proposed increase in thrust is from 98 kN to 110 kN. Supposedly the 220 kN is more than adequate for the AMCA - room for growth and errors.
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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Post by Cybaru »

I think epe is supposed to be in the 126kn range. Specs for USN on GE page.
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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Post by brar_w »

Cybaru wrote:I think epe is supposed to be in the 126kn range. Specs for USN on GE page.
The Current "Enhanced" sitting on GE's F414 page targets 26,000 lb/116 Kn.

http://www.geaviation.com/engines/docs/ ... hanced.pdf
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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Post by Cybaru »

My mistake.. memory failing me.
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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Post by NRao »

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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Post by Gagan »

So it seems that some radar waves penetrate the outer skin and then get reflected off th internal components.
Outer skin design, shape and RAM are supposed to reduce this, but seeing the air intake duct up on the RCS test stand makes me wonder
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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Post by kit »

NRao wrote:Top view of the AMCA at AI17

https://mobile.twitter.com/livefist/sta ... wsrc%5Etfw
Is the tail stabiliser more slanted in the newer pics ?? Good for stealth definitely
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Re: AMCA News and Discussions

Post by NRao »

I thought someone had posted this earlier. ?????

However, this is the original date.

Just as a FYI, they can use the INS6 for testing purposes. And GE is contracted to supply 6 more INS6.

Aggressive.

AMCA Project To Be Complected In 2019: Project Sources Confirmed
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