Indian Military Helicopters

ragupta · Post by **ragupta** » 24 Feb 2017 01:43

Gagan wrote:Doesn't TATA manufacture Helo Bodies for the S92, C-130 parts, Chinook and Apaches?
They probably want to do screwdrivergiri just like the Akash Missile in a JV with DRDO.
Hence this IMRH Model.

The build quality of the Akash Missile looks quite good from the recent pictures, Indian PVT companies will do a pretty good job.
If GoI lets them market and sell the products, I am certain, all these foreign agents and their natashas will vanish and our def min babus will by buying Make In India goodies.

I don't mind natashas being hired and Indian companies selling product to international customers.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 24 Feb 2017 02:05

ragupta wrote:
JayS wrote:
I thought we are talking about overall height not the internal cabin height. Why would Navy have issues with internal height if their ships can take the existing external height inside their ships..??
OK, here is the height of various naval helicopter, some used and some eyed by IN.
ka-28 = 5.4m, Aw101=6.62m, s-92=4.71m, EH101=5.67m, ul-60L = 5.13m

IMRH=5.34M, it is less than Ka-28 that navy uses, IN does not have problem with 5.4m, but has problem with overall height of 5.34m

the imrh height information from
http://en.avia.pro/blog/vertolyot-hal-i ... stiki-foto

For the records, I am not saying IN would have problems with IMRH height. All I said is even if they ant lesser height and let HAL know a priori, they should be able to design IMRH in such a way that navy specific version with less height could be made quickly later.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 24 Feb 2017 04:42

I think we at BR take objections seriously!

It takes a life of its own. But glad it's been put to bed!

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 24 Feb 2017 06:32

IMRH projected as 10-t class in 2011, 10t-12t class in 2013,
12-t class in Aero India 2017. Payload has remained constant at 3.5-t.
https://twitter.com/vkthakur/status/834259009318293504

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 24 Feb 2017 10:50

Folks, folks, please dont go off course by misconstruing statements of each other! I think it was SIngha who started this discussion on "too tall for a naval helo" based on his gut feel from the photos

Singha wrote:Imo the imrh looks but too tall for a naval heli...they should target tri service from day1 and arrive at right shape size weight and engine from day2 ...rest are adjustable

But from ragupta's post, it looks like other frigate/medium naval copters are comparable height, so it is a non-issue

ragupta wrote: OK, here is the height of various naval helicopter, some used and some eyed by IN.
ka-28 = 5.4m, Aw101=6.62m, s-92=4.71m, EH101=5.67m, ul-60L = 5.13m

IMRH=5.34M, it is less than Ka-28 that navy uses, IN does not have problem with 5.4m, but has problem with overall height of 5.34m

the imrh height information from
http://en.avia.pro/blog/vertolyot-hal-i ... stiki-foto

Personally, would love to have a tall and quite rotund medium copter, than anything that has a "Light" attached to its name. We are going from science project size artifacts to large machines that will be in service for decades. Better to have room for all sorts of growth. We can festoon such larger frames with all sorts of extra gear, as they emerge from labs.

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 24 Feb 2017 19:45

Austin wrote:
Sid wrote:This discussion on Ka 22T is a joke. This particular model is powered by Turbomeca Arrius 2G1 engine. Are these engine still available to Russia after European sanctions? In absence of that engine are they gonna offer an alternate engine/recertification/tests in Indian locations?

My gut feeling says after purchase we will end up spending time/money on this chopper to bring it on par with LUH as this bird is nowhere close to what we want.
Yes the Russian can still and they do use the Arrius engine as long as its for non-military role including the police paramilitary casevac etc

It was mentioned many time before here that Arrius engine was asked by IAF as it met the hot and high operational requirement , The VK-800 or RR engine used on Ka-226 did not meet IAF hot/high requirements

Austin ji, Russians don't have their skin in the game when it comes to Ka -226.

Type certification with French engines were completed only in April 2015 and in Dec 2015 we signed contract with Russia for purchase of this type. How this new type could have completed our trials and won, in just 6 months, is really confusing if not alarming.

http://www.ruaviation.com/news/2015/4/14/3083/?h

Point is we are purchasing another early variant Mig/gorshkov/T-90, where delays/modifications/cost overruns are bound to happen. On top that it's sanction prone due to European connection with Russian if conditions deteriorate. Why should we be cought in another logistics/spares nightmare?

I am not even bringing LUH in the discussion at this point of time, because there is no comparison at all.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 24 Feb 2017 20:50

Sid wrote:Austin ji, Russians don't have their skin in the game when it comes to Ka -226.

Type certification with French engines were completed only in April 2015 and in Dec 2015 we signed contract with Russia for purchase of this type. How this new type could have completed our trials and won, in just 6 months, is really confusing if not alarming.

http://www.ruaviation.com/news/2015/4/14/3083/?h

Certification would have been a requirement for Induction it may not a criteria for trials , The trials for Light Copter took place over many years where twice if I am not wrong contenders were disqualified or were told to redo their trials post meeting IAF criteria ....this is a long journey for all in the game and if ka-226 has passed those trials that took place at many location and met MOD/IAF requirement fair and square there is no need to spare doubt , After all LCH/LUH/Dhruv uses French engine so its a known thing for the IAF.

What would be worrisome would be HAL ability to manufacture it in numbers , Check CAG 2015 report on Dhruv , they mention that inspite of Decade long post induction , HAL cannot make more than 8 Dhruv per year ! read up on the report its an eye opener from Service POV http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/c ... 006048.ece

The fact that they are ordering 60 or 80 what ever the number of Ka-226 from Russia directly is a boon for the service.

HAL seems the key bottle neck for other programs be it Tejas where an ex ADA chief told me at AI that IAF wants to buy as much as HAL can make but they cant make in number that IAF wants and they are not willing to share with others to make it , I dont know what kind of number HAL can churn out once LUH , LCH , Ka-226 starts coming from their factory but if Dhruv production is any thing to go by then we wont seen any thing great happening on production front.

Outright purchase for any new system seems to be the only way out to meet force numbers be it MKI,Rafale ,Ka , Single Engine fighter or other programs , The more programs given to HAL the more delay we will see , After all what good is any successful program if they cannot be inducted in numbers and time frame services want.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 24 Feb 2017 21:07

The blackhawk's cabin is quite flat and wide, and most Sirkorsky helicopters seem to have this 5.13m height - weather it is the UH-60 Blackhawk or the Seaking

The IMRH seems to look somewhat like the S-92 which TASL makes bodies of in Hydrabad

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 24 Feb 2017 21:15

Question: can hellfires be fired at targets Which have been left to soak in the afternoon sun in our deserts?

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 24 Feb 2017 21:45

Austin wrote:The trials for Light Copter took place over many years where twice if I am not wrong contenders were disqualified or were told to redo their trials post meeting IAF criteria ....this is a long journey for all in the game and if ka-226 has passed those trials that took place at many location and met MOD/IAF requirement fair and square there is no need to spare doubt , After all LCH/LUH/Dhruv uses French engine so its a known thing for the IAF.

That is not true, 226T was never made the final list in any of the trials. We have had this discussion before. Lots of links posted by me before and I can go and find those posts again if you would like.

Austin wrote: HAL cannot make more than 8 Dhruv per year ! read up on the report its an eye opener from Service POV http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/c ... 006048.ece

If that is true, and 231 dhruvs have been delivered, then Hal would have started manufacturing dhruv
231/8 = ~28.875 years ago.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 24 Feb 2017 22:26

Indranil wrote:Question: can hellfires be fired at targets Which have been left to soak in the afternoon sun in our deserts?

Its not IR guided (it is available in laser guided or mm wave seeker versions), so don't see why it wouldn't work.

sohamn · Post by **sohamn** » 25 Feb 2017 02:17

Indranil wrote:Question: can hellfires be fired at targets Which have been left to soak in the afternoon sun in our deserts?

If hellfires worked fine in Af deserts and Iraqi deserts then it should work ok in Thar as well.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 25 Feb 2017 02:22

I know they work well. At 7kms. I am not sure.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 25 Feb 2017 10:24

I Enjoyed Flying The Cheetah & Chetak But It’s Time to Let Them Go

https://www.thequint.com/blogs/2016/12/ ... e-and-lama

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 27 Feb 2017 23:56

I rarely visit DFI, but google chacha took me there as I was searching for something on the LCH. I found this image, I do not know who owns the copyrights, but its one hell of a pic! Post flight debrief

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 27 Feb 2017 23:58

Good find cybaru. That is Air Marshal S.B. Deo, the Vice Chief of the Air Staff in the HAL Light Combat Helicopter.

sankum · Post by **sankum** » 28 Feb 2017 16:07

LCH-3-View-dimensions

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 28 Feb 2017 19:08

Some more pictures of VCAS and LCH at Aero India-17 here
http://www.spsshownews.com/aero-india-2 ... Helicopter

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 28 Feb 2017 23:51

Is this the first time that somebody linked to the program has categorically said that at higher altitudes, LCH considerably outperforms Apache in weapons payload?

Bheeshma · Post by **Bheeshma** » 01 Mar 2017 00:03

That is not saying much. Apache is heavy and not designed ground up to meet the requirements of Himalayas or Kargil like areas.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 01 Mar 2017 01:10

There is nothing else needed to be said. So, the Apaches are for the planes. But, technically, did we really need to get them?

atma · Post by **atma** » 01 Mar 2017 08:52

I suppose we will have to buy the Apaches because HAL will never deliver numbers in time. Maybe 1 every 3 years. Read earlier posts about Dhruv and Tejas deliveries, on other threads.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 01 Mar 2017 09:04

Is that what you read about the dhruv?

I don't know when the first Apache is arriving, but the first LCH is scheduled for delivery in 3 months.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 01 Mar 2017 09:14

Indranil wrote:There is nothing else needed to be said. So, the Apaches are for the planes. But, technically, did we really need to get them?

Technically no we dont need Apache as LCH meets our requirement , its nimble fast and meets our hot/high altitude requirement and we have paid more than $2 billion to get those 3 dozen birds , Money other wise could be spent to build Mark 2/3 model of LCH with improved performance and capabilities.

But since we signed the Apache deal we need to honour it making sure henceforth we dont import attack choppers of any kind.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 01 Mar 2017 09:42

atma wrote:I suppose we will have to buy the Apaches because HAL will never deliver numbers in time. Maybe 1 every 3 years. Read earlier posts about Dhruv and Tejas deliveries, on other threads.

16 lch every year. 15 for delivery this year. ( 10 IAf, 5 IA)

arshyam · Post by **arshyam** » 01 Mar 2017 09:46

atma wrote:I suppose we will have to buy the Apaches because HAL will never deliver numbers in time. Maybe 1 every 3 years.

Source, please?

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 01 Mar 2017 09:52

I think Apache was ordered when there was some uncertainty about the timelines on LCH. But since we signed it, we have to honour it unless there is some legal way of doing it. But if we can buy some GE 414s or 404s in good numbers or may be F35s off the shelf from the US we may renegotiate the matter.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 01 Mar 2017 09:55

atma wrote:I suppose we will have to buy the Apaches because HAL will never deliver numbers in time. Maybe 1 every 3 years. Read earlier posts about Dhruv and Tejas deliveries, on other threads.

You are displaying your ignorance here Sir. HAL currently producing Dhruv at the rate of 36/yr, when the new line started in Kanpur. Sjha tweeted about this some time ago. The LUH is planned with 30/yr capacity initially which would see ramp up to 60/yr if enough orders would be there. HAL even started serial production for LCH before they got orders. 5 are already in making. And do not forget that the order currently is of 10+5 i.e. a grand total of 15..!!

Like Indranil, I also never really understood exact reason why Apache was really needed when LCH was coming. Apart from one possible reason that the deal was a quid pro quo to Amirkhan for nuclear deal, none other seem logical enough to have compelled our forces (or GOI) to buy Apaches.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 01 Mar 2017 10:02

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/c ... 006048.ece

Recent CAG report puts Dhruv production rate at 8 per year

While the Cheetah and Chetaks are ageing platforms, in need of replacement, the low production rate of Dhruv’s, eight a year, by Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL) is limiting their induction in large numbers. It is yet to induct the armed Dhruv variants two years after the unit has been raised.

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 01 Mar 2017 10:02

A lot of other things, may be needed and also may be not really needed, were brought from the US at that time. All this may be for their support for getting into various international treaties etc.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 01 Mar 2017 10:11

Apache was a prestige issue for iaf as army will get lots of rudra and lch and no longer will be beholden to the hinds of iaf which will retire.

If iaf were to retain its gunship heli little empire, it needed something more tfta. Since ia helis would have ample tank killing capacity the fig leaf of "sead" was used based on one mission in ods across bare empty desert which usa had some 10 ways of doing but apaches and pave lows did it so milord precedent is set.

Apaches will start arriving next year to preen and prance like a high cost mistress in every soiree.

#adharmic eyesore.

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 01 Mar 2017 10:14

Austin wrote:http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/c ... 006048.ece

Recent CAG report puts Dhruv production rate at 8 per year

While the Cheetah and Chetaks are ageing platforms, in need of replacement, the low production rate of Dhruv’s, eight a year, by Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL) is limiting their induction in large numbers. It is yet to induct the armed Dhruv variants two years after the unit has been raised.

With all due respect to CAG, this 8 per year does not match the numbers which IA already holds. There are 231 already in forces, which is not possible if it was 8 per year since 2002.

Following is a report from Mr Shukla from 2011.

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.in/2011/03/i ... eater.html

With the military demanding 159 Dhruvs in quick time, HAL can hardly build these helicopters fast enough. This year’s production rate of 25 Dhruvs will be accelerated from 2012 to 36 helicopters annually.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 01 Mar 2017 10:30

Austin wrote:http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/c ... 006048.ece

Recent CAG report puts Dhruv production rate at 8 per year

While the Cheetah and Chetaks are ageing platforms, in need of replacement, the low production rate of Dhruv’s, eight a year, by Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL) is limiting their induction in large numbers. It is yet to induct the armed Dhruv variants two years after the unit has been raised.

Then how come there are over 150 Dhruvs in service? Did it enter service 20 years ago?

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 01 Mar 2017 10:42

That's what I asked earlier and I didn't get any response.

24th Feb post

Cybaru wrote:
Austin wrote:The trials for Light Copter took place over many years where twice if I am not wrong contenders were disqualified or were told to redo their trials post meeting IAF criteria ....this is a long journey for all in the game and if ka-226 has passed those trials that took place at many location and met MOD/IAF requirement fair and square there is no need to spare doubt , After all LCH/LUH/Dhruv uses French engine so its a known thing for the IAF.
That is not true, 226T was never made the final list in any of the trials. We have had this discussion before. Lots of links posted by me before and I can go and find those posts again if you would like.

Austin wrote: HAL cannot make more than 8 Dhruv per year ! read up on the report its an eye opener from Service POV http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/c ... 006048.ece
If that is true, and 231 dhruvs have been delivered, then Hal would have started manufacturing dhruv
231/8 = ~28.875 years ago.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 01 Mar 2017 11:01

That article is a clever plant for justifying imports because HAL can't produce fast enough. The reporter nicely plugs in a qoute from CAG and then inserts his own numbers to imply that CAG said that the Dhruv production rate is 8 per annum!

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 01 Mar 2017 11:04

Kartik wrote:
Austin wrote:http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/c ... 006048.ece

Recent CAG report puts Dhruv production rate at 8 per year

While the Cheetah and Chetaks are ageing platforms, in need of replacement, the low production rate of Dhruv’s, eight a year, by Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL) is limiting their induction in large numbers. It is yet to induct the armed Dhruv variants two years after the unit has been raised.
Then how come there are over 150 Dhruvs in service? Did it enter service 20 years ago?

CAG is talking about Army Aviation Corp , The fleet strength is

The corps currently operates 126 Cheetah, 55 Chetak and 65 indigenously built advanced light helicopter Dhruv for multi-purpose and utility roles

They also state that " While the Cheetah and Chetaks are ageing platforms, in need of replacement, the low production rate of Dhruv’s, eight a year, by Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL) is limiting their induction in large numbers. It is yet to induct the armed Dhruv variants two years after the unit has been raised.

The report notes that the corps could not replace its helicopters which are due for de-induction since the 10th Plan period (2002-07). Against the 18 schemes, related to acquisition of equipment including helicopters for the corps, approved in 11th and 12th service capital period, contracts in respect of only four could be concluded in the nine years since.

“Failure in meeting the targets and objectives of the acquisition plans and tardiness in procurement action were the main reasons denying the corps to acquire a suitable replacement for the old and ageing fleet,” the CAG report said

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 01 Mar 2017 11:07

I suspect the problem is HAL is building too many types and is involved in too many project , its not that they cant build many its just that they are involved into many projects and can build few for all of those (few as in relative to the numbers forces needs ) ,the problem will worsen as it gets into production mode for newer projects in pipeline

At the least they can give building of choppers to Private Players while keep strategic one under its wing.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 01 Mar 2017 11:25

the 2015-16 hal annual report says this.

Your Company recorded highest ever turnover of ` 15,621.63 Cr. The Company produced 68 new
aircrafts and helicopters along with engines and accessories. The production encompasses Su-
30MKI, Hawk, Advanced Light Helicopter (ALH), Dornier Do-228, and Limited Series Production (LSP)
of Intermediate Jet Trainer (IJT), Cheetal and PTA

-
if anyone can guess the approx nos of the others?

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 01 Mar 2017 11:26

36 dhruvs is plenty. Sure they are made in all flavors and everyone needs to wait their turn. If all 400 orders are fulfilled in one year, what you gonna do next year?

srai · Post by **srai** » 01 Mar 2017 12:30

When was this CAG report written that he is referring to? The article is not at all clear on that point. Was he talking about sometime in the 2002-2007 period? If so, then yes as the production was just starting back then. Or was it a specific variant of ALH? Misleading article or the author was confused or selling some angle.

Austin wrote:
Kartik wrote:
Then how come there are over 150 Dhruvs in service? Did it enter service 20 years ago?
CAG is talking about Army Aviation Corp , The fleet strength is
The corps currently operates 126 Cheetah, 55 Chetak and 65 indigenously built advanced light helicopter Dhruv for multi-purpose and utility roles

They also state that " While the Cheetah and Chetaks are ageing platforms, in need of replacement, the low production rate of Dhruv’s, eight a year, by Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL) is limiting their induction in large numbers. It is yet to induct the armed Dhruv variants two years after the unit has been raised.

The report notes that the corps could not replace its helicopters which are due for de-induction since the 10th Plan period (2002-07). Against the 18 schemes, related to acquisition of equipment including helicopters for the corps, approved in 11th and 12th service capital period, contracts in respect of only four could be concluded in the nine years since.

“Failure in meeting the targets and objectives of the acquisition plans and tardiness in procurement action were the main reasons denying the corps to acquire a suitable replacement for the old and ageing fleet,” the CAG report said