Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

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jayasimha
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by jayasimha »

for records http://pib.nic.in/newsite/PrintRelease. ... lid=158774

Press Information Bureau
Government of India
Ministry of Defence
01-March-2017 19:11 IST
Successful Test Firing of AAD Endo-Atmospheric Interceptor Missile

DRDO conducted the successful launch of the interceptor missile Advanced Area Defence (AAD) at 1015 hrs today from Abdul Kalam Island, Odisha. The endo-atmospheric missile, capable of intercepting incoming targets at an altitude of 15 to 25 kms successfully destroyed the incoming missile. All the mission objectives were successfully met.

The weapon system radars tracked the target and provided the initial guidance to the interceptor which could precisely home on to the target and destroyed it in endo-atmospheric layer. The complete event including the engagement and destruction was tracked by a number of electro-optical tracking systems using infrared imagery. Radars and telemetry stations tracked the target and the interceptor till the destruction of the target. The launch has proved the Ballistic Missile Defence (BMD) prowess of the country.

The Defence Minister Shri Manohar Parrikar congratulated DRDO on the successful launch of the interceptor missile. Chairman DRDO and Secretary Department of Defence R&D Dr. S. Christopher also congratulated team AAD for the successful test firing.

Scientific Advisor to Raksha Mantri and Director General (Missiles & Strategic Systems), DRDO Dr. G. Satheesh Reddy monitored the launch operation along with other senior officials.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by JayS »

John wrote:
JayS wrote:
Yes, 6 cannisters.
What makes you say that? It looks like a 6 cell launcher. And based on plume no sign it was ejected out.
Not me, Sjha says so. :)

http://www.delhidefencereview.com/2017/ ... -bullseye/
Today’s test was conducted from a mobile launcher that can house a total of 6 AAD interceptors in canisterized configuration (see the video below). The launcher has been built by Tata Power SED and can also be used to launch the Prahar short range surface to surface missile which has air frame commonality with AAD. Overall, today’s AAD was tested in what is essentially going to be its deployed system configuration. (Although, only one canister was loaded onto the launcher frame for today’s test.)
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by Karan M »

If Saurav is correct, DRDO has upgraded its LRTR to double the range.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by AdityaM »

Singha wrote:so a huge SAM deal like spyder gets mired in years of delays due to non availability of a truck!!?
and this is not a fire on move system but just a static launcher.
wonders never cease. the AL stallions of 4x4, 6x6, 8x8 and 10x10 were all available


For want of a nail the shoe was lost.
For want of a shoe the horse was lost.
For want of a horse the rider was lost.
For want of a rider the message was lost.
For want of a message the battle was lost.
For want of a battle the kingdom was lost.
And all for the want of a horseshoe nail.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by Zynda »

Karan M wrote:If Saurav is correct, DRDO has upgraded its LRTR to double the range.
Per wiki, Swordfish's range was supposed to be upgraded to 1500 Km from current 600 Kms. Perhaps DRDO has achieved the same!
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by John »

JayS wrote:
John wrote: What makes you say that? It looks like a 6 cell launcher. And based on plume no sign it was ejected out.
Not me, Sjha says so. :)

http://www.delhidefencereview.com/2017/ ... -bullseye/
Today’s test was conducted from a mobile launcher that can house a total of 6 AAD interceptors in canisterized configuration (see the video below). The launcher has been built by Tata Power SED and can also be used to launch the Prahar short range surface to surface missile which has air frame commonality with AAD. Overall, today’s AAD was tested in what is essentially going to be its deployed system configuration. (Although, only one canister was loaded onto the launcher frame for today’s test.)
Calling the launcher a canister won't be the first time..
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by shiv »

John wrote:
JayS wrote:
Yes, 6 cannisters.
What makes you say that? It looks like a 6 cell launcher. And based on plume no sign it was ejected out.
Looks like a single canister to me in a frame that can hold 6 more
http://pibphoto.nic.in/photo//2017/Mar/ ... 199431.jpg
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by Sid »

I was hoping Admins had merged this discussion because same points have been discussed in ABM thread. It's a six cell launcher with no visible modifications on AAD

AAD launcher Video


Same launcher from IDEX South Korea 2013.
Image
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by JayS »

shiv wrote:
John wrote: What makes you say that? It looks like a 6 cell launcher. And based on plume no sign it was ejected out.
Looks like a single canister to me in a frame that can hold 6 more
http://pibphoto.nic.in/photo//2017/Mar/ ... 199431.jpg
5 more you mean..??
The article by SJha contains Video showing the cannister (or whatever it is) configuration.

PS: Ah, its posted by Sid above while I was typing.
Last edited by JayS on 04 Mar 2017 00:10, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by John »

shiv wrote:
John wrote: What makes you say that? It looks like a 6 cell launcher. And based on plume no sign it was ejected out.
Looks like a single canister to me in a frame that can hold 6 more
http://pibphoto.nic.in/photo//2017/Mar/ ... 199431.jpg
Notice the launch video Sid posted the missile is propelled out because of booster, compare that with Brahmos videos where it is ejected out from pressurized canister aka Cold launch.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by shiv »

Forget the comparison. I can see the canister
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by JayS »

John wrote:
shiv wrote: Looks like a single canister to me in a frame that can hold 6 more
http://pibphoto.nic.in/photo//2017/Mar/ ... 199431.jpg
Notice the launch video Sid posted the missile is propelled out because of booster, compare that with Brahmos videos where it is ejected out from pressurized canister aka Cold launch.
This only implies that AAD is hot launched. Cannister can be both hot or cold launched. Also there is no booster on AAD.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by brar_w »

JayS wrote:
John wrote: Notice the launch video Sid posted the missile is propelled out because of booster, compare that with Brahmos videos where it is ejected out from pressurized canister aka Cold launch.
This only implies that AAD is hot launched. Cannister can be both hot or cold launched. Also there is no booster on AAD.
Correct. There are various examples of this. THAAD missile round for examples comes out of the factory in a composite canister that is mounted on the launcher from which the missile is hot launched. One would imagine most modern missiles of the size and weight we are talking about (not to mention cost) come enclosed in a canister and this is how they are handled, loaded and moved. You then replace the canister for reloading.

See HERE (1:55 onwards), HERE(S-400), and HERE(SM3/SM6). Missile ---> Canister ---> Palletized Launch Truck/- Launch Vehicle.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by John »

Yes it could be hot launched but DRDO has worked primarily on cold launch. It would make sense to use same technology. So far there are no indication of a canister in any launch video either.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by brar_w »

How does the launch mechanism determine whether something is canister launched or not?
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by shiv »

John wrote:Yes it could be hot launched but DRDO has worked primarily on cold launch. It would make sense to use same technology. So far there are no indication of a canister in any earlier launch video either.
There. Corrected.

This latest launch has a canister. If you are saying that there is a plume of smoke near the bottom of the canister - that is because it is being vented from below.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by John »

brar_w wrote:How does the launch mechanism determine whether something is canister launched or not?
The launch video posted doesn't indicate there is canister, looks like a missile housed a box launcher.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by shiv »

John wrote: The launch video posted doesn't indicate there is canister, looks like a missile housed a box launcher.
The box serves the same purpose as the canister I guess. Amreeki Patriot here
Image
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by brar_w »

John, as I had said earlier you seem to confuse a "canister" concept of missile employment with either Launcher-Launched, or have associated canister launched as exclusively being "cold launched". A canister launched missile is simply a missile that is loaded in a canister at the factory, stored in a canister most of its operational life, and launched from a canister by mounting that canister on a palletized truck. When such missile is employed, you remove the spent canister and replace it with another missile unit which includes the missile enclosed in a canister.

Most medium to long range SAM's are done this way including Patriot, THAAD, S300/S400 and the SM series. The only difference being that on the Patriot one canister takes one PAC-2 GEM/T, or 4 PAC-3's. See the videos I posted above. On the Patriot, THAAD or Sm, you have an umblical connector imbedded in the canister to work on the missile electronically but if you want to remove the missile round from the canister you have to take it back to the depot. They are designed to remain in the canister for years. An all up missile round is packaged and delivered right from the factory to the depots or front line units and remains in that state throughout its life.

The "box" launcher you refer to is commonly called a canister by most that use it. It may not be a cold launched canister but the terminology is still a canister as is used in official literature of some if not most of the operators. This is different from back loading interceptors into a fixed box/canister as is done on some of the lower end systems where missiles are delivered, stored and transported as is. A good example of that is the NASAMS where the missiles are individually placed in the launcher upon reload.

PAC-3 Quad packed canister - Maximum of 16 deployed missiles per palletized truck-

Image

Truck Minus the canisters

Image
Last edited by brar_w on 05 Mar 2017 00:55, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by John »

Yes I am well aware but there is no proof it was canisterized you are simply restating some wikipedia information and claiming that there is proof. Only factual information we have is an article and DDM has a tendency to mix up facts. Let's wait for actual proof from DRDO which so far has stated none of that.

If they move towards that they most likely use cold launch since that will allow them to be fired from UVLS. It opens up deployment of Prahaar/AAD in naval vessels.
Last edited by John on 04 Mar 2017 20:32, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by brar_w »

Yes I am well aware but there is no proof it was canisterized you are simply restating some wikipedia information and claiming that there is proof.
I haven't stated a single piece of WIKIPEDIA information nor have I spoken at all about the AAD or whether it was canistrized or not. I am merely pointing out the fact that how a missile is launched (cold or hot ) has absolutely no bearing on whether it is employed in a canister.
If they move towards that they most likely use cold launch since that will allow them to be fired from UVLS. It opens up deployment of Prahaar/AAD in naval vessels.
Again that is not evidence debunking what has been published. Non use of "cold launch" process is not at all relevant to the discussion on how the round is delivered, handled, stored etc. Given the size, weight, and cost of the interceptor it is quite likely that much like any other comparable system on the planet, this missile will likely be packaged and delivered in a canister with the palletized vehicle capable of accommodating 6 of those canisters at one time.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by John »

brar_w wrote:
Yes I am well aware but there is no proof it was canisterized you are simply restating some wikipedia information and claiming that there is proof.
I haven't stated a single piece of WIKIPEDIA information nor have I spoken at all about the AAD or whether it was canistrized or not. I am merely pointing out the fact that how a missile is launched (cold or hot ) has absolutely no bearing on whether it is employed in a canister.
Yes it does I think you choose not to read other things I posted, as I said for DRDO it makes little sense try to revent wheel and do hot launch when cold launch is currently heavily used. Hence if canisterized I expect it to be cold launch. This pointless discussion you are simply regurgitating wikipedia information and trying to act factual. Let's leave it at that.
Last edited by John on 04 Mar 2017 20:41, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by brar_w »

Lets recap, you just accused me of pushing out WIKI information on the AAD which I haven't. Regardless, you have not yet debunked the published claim of it being launched from a canister, and the video evidence of it being hot launched.
Yes it does I think you choose not to read other things I posted,
No it does not. As has been shown here there are two ways you can launch a missile out of a canister - Hot launched, or Cold launched. There are examples out there (provided to you) of hot launched missiles being canisterized as there are examples of cold launched missiles being canisterized.

Therefore :
how a missile is launched (cold or hot ) has absolutely no bearing on whether it is employed in a canister.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by John »

Where have I stated hot launch missile are not canisterized, I said most of missiles we are use cold launch like Brahmos and for compatability that is likely what we will use. Since there is no signs of cold launch or any press releases from DRDO on new launch mechanism. I said this is likely not canisterized.

You need stop trying to act factual by attacking others.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by brar_w »

You stated and expressed doubts on it being canisterized based on the fact that it was not cold launched. This has led me and a few others to interpret that as your basic argument in that since it is not cold launched, any published information of it being canisterized could be a misrepresentation or factually incorrect. So far we have to pieces of data out there. A published report of it being canisterized and evidence of it being hot launched.

Most comparable systems of this size, weight, mission employ a concept of Missile round being canisterized upon delivery and subsequent employment. Since we have published information that this is the case here there is little reason to doubt that much like its peers around the world, the AAD employs such a concept.

Do you suppose that missiles are transported on a truck and a crane lowers them into what you term as a "box launcher" in the field? How is that at all efficient for an important, heavy and large missile? You'd have to carry missiles rounds in a storage container on a truck, remove the missile form the container, lift the missile using a crane, stabilize the pallet, carefully move the missile into the pallet..connect the missile to the canister to be then plugged in and then repeat, test the connections and get back to the fight.

Or you could simply take factory sealed canisters that have connected missile rounds inside and mount them on to the pallet as is taking out used up canisters back tot he factory for refurb and reuse. On the THAAD the replace 8 canisters in 30 minutes. God knows how long it would take them if they had to individually lower each missile into an individual canister and then test out the connections.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by Singha »

Spyder barak8 and barak1 are hot launch. We have all in service now.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by SSridhar »

Zynda wrote:
Karan M wrote:If Saurav is correct, DRDO has upgraded its LRTR to double the range.
Per wiki, Swordfish's range was supposed to be upgraded to 1500 Km from current 600 Kms. Perhaps DRDO has achieved the same!
I think the range was extended to 1500 Kms as early as c. 2011
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by shiv »

John wrote:Where have I stated hot launch missile are not canisterized, I said most of missiles we are use cold launch like Brahmos and for compatability that is likely what we will use.
I don't believe that this is a good enough or valid reason. I think you are wrong. But don't let that stop you from adamantly pushing what I think is a needless argument.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by Sid »

Except 3 (Agni V/Shaurya/Brahmos) there is no missile in India which is cold launched. Even earlier version of Brahmons on Rajput were not cold launched (they had tilted launchers).

Remember this?

Image

All our air defense missiles, past/current, are hot launched. They won't change AAD from current configuration, which works just fine in current configuration.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by abhik »

Why this tamasha on the "canister"? AFAIK this is not the first canister launch, last year's test was also from a canister.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by Singha »

The russian fetish for cold launch comes from reusing slbm tech into ships and shore. Even their light sam like tor are cold launch. There are risks associated like the video of s300 launch fail...everyone just ran off dhoti shivering. But if a brahmos fails to ignite it will fall amidships not pleasant. It has liquid kerosene not stable solid fuel.

Our a5 probably reuses a modded cold launch from k4 project to save time and cost.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by vasu raya »

http://idrw.org/drdo-working-on-re-usab ... e-project/

the Brahmos would have to get a hybrid engine for such a missile, google seems to give the SR-71 Blackbird's engine which is both a RAM engine and a turbojet as the closest.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by ramana »

abhik wrote:Why this tamasha on the "canister"? AFAIK this is not the first canister launch, last year's test was also from a canister.
Guys we wasted one whole page on canister or not. Knock it off.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by ramana »

KaranM, I was thinking we should collate all the flight test info on PAD, AAD and PDV from the press reports so far towards writing an article on Missile Defense capability in India. It would be good for where we are technologically speaking.
Especially with NoKo getting belligerent with missile testing and eventual leakage to TSP.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by kurup »

New Warnings for 11 and 12 March ( for a 400km range missile )

INDIA EAST COAST – N BAY OF BENGAL (.) CHARTS 31 351 352 INT 71 (.)

EXPERIMENTAL FLIGHT TRIAL SCHEDULED FROM ITR ON 11 AND 12 MAR 17 FROM 0430- 0830 UTC IN DANGER ZONE BOUNDED BY

21-22.25N 086-55.71E, 21-00.43N 086-57.66E, 18-14.71N 089-13.08E, 18-39.73N 089-45.24E, 21-17.18N 087-18.93E, 21-22.74N 086-56.34E

2. CANCEL THIS MSG 120930 UTC MAR 17

Image
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by jamwal »

Just 400 km ! So Brahmos ?
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by Prasad »

March 10 was to be extended range Brahmos test.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by rvishwakarm »

Apologies if it doesn't make sense, doesn't the bakend of the truck/rear wheels gets damaged due to fire? I see orange flames around rear wheels in the image below.
jayasimha wrote:Image

Take off view of the Advanced Area Defence Endo-Atmospheric Interceptor Missile of the DRDO successfully test fired, at Abdul Kalam Island, Odisha, on March 01, 2017.
CNR :94046 Photo ID :99431
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by arun »

kurup wrote:New Warnings for 11 and 12 March ( for a 400km range missile )

INDIA EAST COAST – N BAY OF BENGAL (.) CHARTS 31 351 352 INT 71 (.)

EXPERIMENTAL FLIGHT TRIAL SCHEDULED FROM ITR ON 11 AND 12 MAR 17 FROM 0430- 0830 UTC IN DANGER ZONE BOUNDED BY

21-22.25N 086-55.71E, 21-00.43N 086-57.66E, 18-14.71N 089-13.08E, 18-39.73N 089-45.24E, 21-17.18N 087-18.93E, 21-22.74N 086-56.34E

2. CANCEL THIS MSG 120930 UTC MAR 17

Image
Guessing the test is for the extended 450 km range Brahmos missile that Dr. S. Christopher mentioned in the India Today article by Jugal Purohit that was posted on BRF by N. Rao. Test date and exclusion zone length are broadly in line:
arun wrote:

Many nuggets of information in that India Today article by Jugal Purohit:
What has been the impact of India gaining a seat, last year, at the Missile Technology Control Regime (MTCR) - a global club it courted for years before being finally let in?

The man who answered was none other than the boss of Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), Dr S Christopher. He chose the Indo-Russian supersonic cruise missile BrahMos to make his point.

"The immediate impact," he said, "would be seen on the BrahMos whose range will be increased from 290km to 450km". The date chosen for the test is March 10 he said.
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Re: Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Post by ramana »

Great connecting dots arun.

Keep up the good work.
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