India-US relations: News and Discussions III

OmkarC · Post by **OmkarC** » 06 Mar 2017 05:02

^^ The victimhood stories of East asians are an eye opener for me (sorry, no racism or pun intended) for I always thought East Asians had it easy due to a) they readily embrace Christianity & western lifestyle b) rarely display any trace of their native cultures c) their women are more willing to date White people and that has now become an acceptable social norm here.

kiranA · Post by **kiranA** » 06 Mar 2017 05:20

Gus wrote:It is time we accept that a section of hate is on our way because of who we are and not because of mistaking with Arabs or whatever. Check this save American it jobs.org and look at the "noteworthy post" section and sections on "Indian IT mafia" etc..

Its not about jobs or h1b either. Atleast 10-20k of these visas are given to western europeans everyyear. Nobody has a single complaint against them. There was a radio program about one scot h1b having to leave a fracking job because it maxed out. The entire neighbourhood came out to bid goodbye and many were crying that visa regulations forced him out.

OmkarC · Post by **OmkarC** » 06 Mar 2017 05:35

kiranA wrote:
Despite all this many desis continue to believe all that anti-immigration talk is "really" about muslims, illegal latinos etc. If only desi can convince whites that they are not muslims, if only they can stop smelling a little less like curry, if only this if only that then it will be great.

Even more irony is that there is no payoff even to India in international setting. 9/11 was supposed to complete a western tilt to Indian against pakistan. Instead pakistan got atleast $30 bn in direct govt to govt transfers (no ngo involvment).

Ya, true. We learn from an early age in India that if reality is too harsh, we just alter our perspective to create our own "benign" version of it so as not to offend the aggressors.

darshan · Post by **darshan** » 06 Mar 2017 05:38

amitkv wrote: It is unclear if there have been attacks on other minorities like Chinese, Latinos etc or are Indians are target of the hate crimes. One problem is that for the uneducated cow boys Indians look like Eyeranians and Arabians. Similarly all East Asians are clumped together as Chinese.

This comment sums up the situation pretty well.

“Herein lies today’s tragedy. Donald Trump has touched a vein in a population mourning a world where their superiority (and entitlement) went unquestioned. His not-so-subtle coded message is one of ‘If you just put “those people” in their place, then all will be well again.’ And it’s just so much more easier to feel this way than to put in the sacrifice and hard work needed to actually improve your own situation.”

Unfortunately it is not as simple as "uneducated" whites. They are being put on focus due to Trump but hate and ignorance against Hindu/Sikh/Indian have been there forever and from all segments whether whites or blacks. One would be mistaking if thinking that it is rural white rednecks. Especially when since S&L crisis rage has been being built up due to ever increasing income inequalities. Some shoot, slap, and yell at you while others target you in a different manner. For example, in this thread sometime ago I had mentioned how elder and newcomer Indian people were being targeted in suburb stores for shoplifting. Family friend's son was going through the law school that time and was working with ACLU to bring lawsuits against stores and cities involved. However, they could not convince enough people to stand up for their rights and fight.

I work in industry where majority of my coworkers are white and very well technically educated. But after working with them for years, till this day I have to keep correcting many of my white friends on what is muslim and what is not. And, lot of times it is Indians themselves muddying up waters. Every immigrant community has fought their battles and have organized themselves, so why are we expecting a rose petal road for us? Get organized and fight. Just start with getting organized part and one would realize why it may be kosher to go after Hindu/Sikh than muslims (even Indian one). No reaction to worry about. I still recall how many Desis were turning away from openly joining and campaigning to change textbooks and impression about Hindus. As a Gujju Hindu I have tried to debunk AIT and caste system atrocities many times just to see some self loathing desi to champion opposite. Another example is still not having enough power and organization to be able to build big Mandirs away from some church being nearby. Heck, majority do not even use the word Mandir (how can something that came before the word temple be referred as such).

I could be wrong here but I do not recall any non Hindu/Sikh Indian ending up being a target of this hate towards brown people. Why?

Added later:
Long time ago UK enacted immigration policy specifically targeting Indian population. The number of Indians with power are lot higher than in US but I still have not seen any change towards being pro Indian.

kiranA · Post by **kiranA** » 06 Mar 2017 05:54

i beleive more than any amount of organizing within USA it is India which needs to organize itself and discipline it self. within USA or any foreign country I agree with other posters that one is pretty much at the mercy of majority. One can do this and that but being especially a visible minority you cant do much if the majority is not willing to change how they view you.

Desis spend a lot of time intellectualizing charlatans like bannon but dont study what our african american brethren went through. here is a quote from african american intellectual james baldwin

"It is difficult to be born in a place where you are despised and also promised that with endeavor – with this, with that, you know – you can accomplish the impossible. You’re trying to deal with the man, the woman, the child – the child of whichever sex – and he or she and your man or your woman has got to deal with the 24-hour-a-day facts of life in this country. We’re not going to fly off someplace else, you know, we’d better get through whatever that day is and still have each other and still raise children – somehow manage all of that. And this is 24 hours of every day, and you’re surrounded by all of the paraphernalia of safety: If you can strike this bargain here. If you can make sure your armpits are odorless. Curl your hair. Be impeccable. Be all the things that the American public says you should do, right? And you do all those things – and nothing happens really. And what is much worse than that, nothing happens to your child either."

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 06 Mar 2017 05:57

About the uk here is the answer...

Doloroso‏ @Pyrmha108
7. Has UK got any foreign policy apart from maximising arms sales to KSA? - Yes, minimising blowback from AQ & Daesh while not upsetting KSA

6h
Doloroso‏ @Pyrmha108
6. Does the UK really hate Iran & Hezbollah as @garethbayley says? No, he says that so as to maximise UK arms sales to KSA & GCC countries.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 06 Mar 2017 05:59

Everything the uk feeds on at high margin like arms sales, luxury london property and escort services, financial services, black money mgmt, media, construction ...
Its tied to gcc arab funding.

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 06 Mar 2017 06:11

It's complicated.

Jews have also looked upon the Muslim model with envy-if they can't have respect they will settle for fear. Of course it is an uncivilized way to sort out matters.

The biggest single lynching in the US was of Italians. Guiliani and Palladino are not likely ignorant of this.

America's Nobel record until the 1940s was indistinguished compared to Europe. When Europeans especially Jews were recruited for the Manhattan project, American science became unbeatable. This was the same population that was classified as undesirable for immigration earlier.

Muslims have taken some of the swagger out of Bubba. Indians make good proxies for venting the frustration.

Until an Indian grabs a semi-automatic and has a go at a place of worship, these killings will continue to be unlamented collateral damage. But is that what we want? Better to educate. Better even to wear saffron and state 'I'm not Muslim'.

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 06 Mar 2017 06:18

What is big hue and cry about some Aslan's show about hinduism? RM has started a petition to stop it. Why are some of us so insecure about some western guy portraying our country/religion in a bad light (if that's the case).

chanakyaa · Post by **chanakyaa** » 06 Mar 2017 06:51

Until an Indian grabs a semi-automatic and has a go at a place of worship, these killings will continue to be unlamented collateral damage. But is that what we want? Better to educate. Better even to wear saffron and state 'I'm not Muslim'.

Education is fine as long as the victim is not your loved one. Semi talks louder and is heard very clearly. Eye for an Eye will not make the world blind. Technically there will always be one person left with at least one Eye; who can find opposite sex (with bit of a difficulty of course) but eventually reproduce. Why is it perfectly okay to kill absolutely innocent, minding-his-own-business, productive, no-harm Indian, while their companies get to sell cola, pizza, phone in Indian without any consequences? Puzzles me.

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 06 Mar 2017 07:12

In the US white Christians have used this approach to instill fear and terror. Whether it is the difficult to conceal Charleston massacre or the less well known epidemic of Black church burnings. Of course the killings at the Sikh temple in Wisconsin is another example.

I am happy to let whites keep this particular privilege.

hanumadu · Post by **hanumadu** » 06 Mar 2017 07:23

kiranA wrote: Despite all this many desis continue to believe all that anti-immigration talk is "really" about muslims, illegal latinos etc. If only desi can convince whites that they are not muslims, if only they can stop smelling a little less like curry, if only this if only that then it will be great.

We are one billion people and we have our hopes pinned on a American to solve our Islamic terror problem in India, that too at a time when we may be near the finish line. A few years of growth and we should manage to manage Islamic terror ourselves.

Trump will likely exacerbate the Islamic problem. If he screws up the economy or fails to bring in the jobs and curb Islamic terrorism, the liberals will turn up their Islamic pandering by a few notches.

I am beginning to suspect Bannon knows f*ck all about how to run the govt.

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 06 Mar 2017 07:29

We may be near the finish line....

That is optimistic even though reads like music. India is near the end of the beginning.

hanumadu · Post by **hanumadu** » 06 Mar 2017 07:35

sanjaykumar wrote:We may be near the finish line....

That is optimistic even though reads like music. India is near the end of the beginning.

You mean beginning of the end?
But I doubt the ability or even the inclination of Trump and Bannon to tackle Islamic terrorism. What are a few Indian lives if they manage to do so?

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 06 Mar 2017 07:41

hanumadu wrote:We are one billion people and we have our hopes pinned on a American to solve our Islamic terror problem in India, that too at a time when we may be near the finish line.

Islamic terror is just one of the problems associated with having a Muslim population as large as India's - but by no means the only one. India will soon be the largest Muslim nation on earth...many Indians seem to be pretty sanguine about this situation (despite having lost 30% of the country) while others would say this is equivalent to a ticking time-bomb.

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 06 Mar 2017 07:45

Nehru said that two or so generations of Indians would be condemned to great toil. India is now in a position to start improving its HDI and income parameters and industrialisation . Until recently it has been fighting off Islam Chinese and famine as well as those gifts of the Christians that just keep on giving even after having finished hosting them for two centuries.

Sorry off topic.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 06 Mar 2017 08:03

Great. Those alleged "struggles" entitle you to contempt towards h1b. Nobody questioned US right to implement any policy . All India is saying it is to treat non-immigrant visas as trade matter and negotiate on WTO or other trade terms. You dont have to speculate (while pretending to think) what I meant by mary antoinette - you just need to read - i laid out the context clearly.

Dear kiranA: The gratuitous hostility is all on your part. So I am requesting that you please lay off the sh1t-pedding and throwing, it's beyond asinine.

I intervened when I saw you/your co-sh1t-throwers beating up on someone else who was calmly laying out the pov of US people, so that there could be an intelligent discussion with better understanding and useful thinking. What the f*** do you know about what we have done as Indians or Americans or Mongolians or chimpanzees? What qualifies you to presume to judge our attitudes towards India, Indians, America or Americans, Mongolia or Mongolians or intelligent creatures like Chimpanzees?

These things are clearly beyond you, sorry we tried to present other points of view objectively. Misjudged your intelligence, sorry.

Your posts brilliantly vindicate the attitudes of people like Bannon towards what they consider to be rabble.

hanumadu · Post by **hanumadu** » 06 Mar 2017 08:16

Arjun wrote:
hanumadu wrote:We are one billion people and we have our hopes pinned on a American to solve our Islamic terror problem in India, that too at a time when we may be near the finish line.
Islamic terror is just one of the problems associated with having a Muslim population as large as India's - but by no means the only one. India will soon be the largest Muslim nation on earth...many Indians seem to be pretty sanguine about this situation (despite having lost 30% of the country) while others would say this is equivalent to a ticking time-bomb.

Its a ticking time-bomb which unfortunately we cannot count on others like Trump or any one else to diffuse. Just us. We are alone on this one. Any help is welcome but we should not pin our hopes on it.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 06 Mar 2017 08:17

As for the claim that h1B visas are a "trade matter", the Indian government is articulating its position in a biss-poor fashion. Subramaniam Swamy put it much more clearly:

Interest rates in India are like 12% or more if you try to take out a business loan. In the US it is like 5 to 6%. So when US companies borrow money at 5% and want to come into India and compete, it puts Indian businesses at an impossible disadvantage.

OTOH, Indian salaries are like, well below US levels for comparable work. So India says, hey, you want us to open our markets to your low-capital-cost businesses, then open your markets to our low-pay workforce. THAT is the trade issue.

Instead the IFS bozos phrase it as if technology professionals are human-trafficking bodies. That's really not going to sell well, it is biss-poor diplomacy. But par for the course, since it demonstrates the attitudes of "resident Indians", particularly the Babooncracy towards anyone who actually works hard for a living.

kiranA · Post by **kiranA** » 06 Mar 2017 08:22

UlanBatori wrote:
Great. Those alleged "struggles" entitle you to contempt towards h1b. Nobody questioned US right to implement any policy . All India is saying it is to treat non-immigrant visas as trade matter and negotiate on WTO or other trade terms. You dont have to speculate (while pretending to think) what I meant by mary antoinette - you just need to read - i laid out the context clearly.
Dear kiranA: The gratuitous hostility is all on your part. So I am requesting that you please lay off the sh1t-pedding and throwing, it's beyond asinine.

I intervened when I saw you/your co-sh1t-throwers beating up on someone else who was calmly laying out the pov of US people, so that there could be an intelligent discussion with better understanding and useful thinking. What the f*** do you know about what we have done as Indians or Americans or Mongolians or chimpanzees? What qualifies you to presume to judge our attitudes towards India, Indians, America or Americans, Mongolia or Mongolians or intelligent creatures like Chimpanzees?

These things are clearly beyond you, sorry we tried to present other points of view objectively. Misjudged your intelligence, sorry.

Your posts brilliantly vindicate the attitudes of people like Bannon towards what they consider to be rabble.

What ? what is WRONG with you ? I only judge the posts here and what you chose to reveal about yourself here .Its clear you are hurting personally because you are aware of your inadequacy to engage in discussion. What exactly did you try to present here ? half of your posts are written in unintelligible gibberish anyway and the other half reveal a bitter man who tried to make sense of the world around him and failed repeatedly.

Ramana, your intervention is required here. This man, after extinguishing his feeble snide insults, is resorting to frigging direct abuse . He talks about "we" - what does that mean apart from potential multiple personality disorder - it sounds like an attempt to threat ? and he talks derisively about thousands of indian on h1 as sh1t and insanely speculates that I am operating here as a gang with some other h1b ..sheesh.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 06 Mar 2017 08:22

sanjaykumar wrote:Nehru said that two or so generations of Indians would be condemned to great toil. India is now in a position to start improving its HDI and income parameters and industrialisation . Until recently it has been fighting off Islam Chinese and famine as well as those gifts of the Christians that just keep on giving even after having finished hosting them for two centuries.

Sorry off topic.

+108.
Very good insight.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 06 Mar 2017 08:30

Kiran, Calm down UB has fought in Trenches for Indian Americans.
What he , Primus, Darshan are telling is reality.
Yes we need to think about future.
To do that we need to know the past.
In 1980 the Census wanted to move Indians from Caucasian to different category. There was a weekend seminar at Rutgers.
All old timers wrestling up in arms.
One old lady spoke. She said "you all are thinking about your privileged backgrounds of IIT and D School economics. What about the children?
How many of you are sending your kids to elite schools like your parents did in India making sacrifices.
Very few."
She supported the exclusion from White pool.

I thought then WTF.
Now she is right.

We need to know where we were before we can envision where we want to be.
Right now IA have the highest per capita income.

We need to see how to sustain that.

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 06 Mar 2017 08:38

ramana wrote:Kiran, Calm down UB has fought in Trenches for Indian Americans.

One certainly appreciates that as long as the fight for Indian Americans is not at the cost of fight for Indians. More so, on this forum - unless the mandate of Bharat Rakshak has been redefined recently.

I say this as an Indian American myself.

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 06 Mar 2017 08:40

Arjun wrote:
ramana wrote:Kiran, Calm down UB has fought in Trenches for Indian Americans.
One certainly appreciates that as long as the fight for Indian Americans is not at the cost of fight for Indians. More so, on this forum - unless the mandate of Bharat Rakshak has been redefined recently.

I say this as an Indian American myself.

That's a good point. Sometimes people feel both are the same, when they are not.

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 06 Mar 2017 08:43

UlanBatori wrote:Your posts brilliantly vindicate the attitudes of people like Bannon towards what they consider to be rabble.

Why did this part of the response to KiranA disappear without the poster himself having edited it?

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 06 Mar 2017 08:44

May I suggest a new thread for Indian-American issues. This one has gone widely off-topic. Most of discussion isn't really relevant to desh-dwelling Indians and is at best only tangentially related to India-US relations.

pravula · Post by **pravula** » 06 Mar 2017 08:46

Arjun wrote:
UlanBatori wrote:Your posts brilliantly vindicate the attitudes of people like Bannon towards what they consider to be rabble.
Why did this part of the response to KiranA disappear without the poster himself having edited it?

Its still there.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 06 Mar 2017 08:47

Arjun wrote:
ramana wrote:Kiran, Calm down UB has fought in Trenches for Indian Americans.
One certainly appreciates that as long as the fight for Indian Americans is not at the cost of fight for Indians. More so, on this forum - unless the mandate of Bharat Rakshak has been redefined recently.

I say this as an Indian American myself.

Where was that implied?
Deal with your own ghosts.
KiranA has valid issue.

OmkarC · Post by **OmkarC** » 06 Mar 2017 08:53

Guys - thanks for the excellent discussions. All of you are incredibly sharp & insightful.

Slight digression: I just remembered something - Ganapati Sacchidananda Swamy, a Hindu seer, visited Dallas in 2015 and asked his disciples to organize a 3 days Hanuman Chalisa recital some 1 Lakh+ times. He said that the next 3-4 years were going to be a period of difficulty & strife and praying to Bajrang Bali was the way to mitigate (did he foresee Trumpanzee & rise of racial target of Indians ?). FYI - his followers played a key role in establishing a magnificent Hanuman temple in Frisco, TX.

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 06 Mar 2017 08:56

OmkarC wrote:Guys - thanks for the excellent discussions. All of you are incredibly sharp & insightful.

Slight digression: I just remembered something - Ganapati Sacchidananda Swamy, a Hindu seer, visited Dallas in 2015 and asked his disciples to organize a 3 days Hanuman Chalisa recital some 1 Lakh+ times. He said that the next 3-4 years were going to be a period of difficulty & strife and praying to Bajrang Bali was the way to mitigate (did he foresee Trumpanzee & rise of racial target of Indians ?). FYI - his followers played a key role in establishing a magnificent Hanuman temple in Frisco, TX.

Anything he said about what comes after the 3-4 years of difficulty?

OmkarC · Post by **OmkarC** » 06 Mar 2017 08:58

^^ I don't know. But you should've seen hundreds of desis (and a couple of gora/goris) chanting Hanuman Chalisa in a maxed out auditorium in the heart of US - will never forget the positive energy I felt that day.

darshan · Post by **darshan** » 06 Mar 2017 09:01

Yes, I have visited that Mandir (one that also had to be constructed near church) while in DFW and has nice concept of combining fitness center on the campus. In DFW, even BAPS could not muster enough power to build their Mandir away from church.

symontk · Post by **symontk** » 06 Mar 2017 09:09

Karthik S wrote:
OmkarC wrote:Guys - thanks for the excellent discussions. All of you are incredibly sharp & insightful.

Slight digression: I just remembered something - Ganapati Sacchidananda Swamy, a Hindu seer, visited Dallas in 2015 and asked his disciples to organize a 3 days Hanuman Chalisa recital some 1 Lakh+ times. He said that the next 3-4 years were going to be a period of difficulty & strife and praying to Bajrang Bali was the way to mitigate (did he foresee Trumpanzee & rise of racial target of Indians ?). FYI - his followers played a key role in establishing a magnificent Hanuman temple in Frisco, TX.
Anything he said about what comes after the 3-4 years of difficulty?

After 3 - 4 years, it would become routine that one would not notice, so era of peace will dawn

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 06 Mar 2017 09:10

Thanks.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 06 Mar 2017 09:19

symontk wrote: After 3 - 4 years, it would become routine that one would not notice, so era of peace will dawn

There will be a social transformation by 2019 and 2020

symontk · Post by **symontk** » 06 Mar 2017 10:04

svinayak wrote:
symontk wrote: After 3 - 4 years, it would become routine that one would not notice, so era of peace will dawn
There will be a social transformation by 2019 and 2020

Like, more right wing governments in power? See what is happening in France

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 06 Mar 2017 10:08

symontk wrote:
Karthik S wrote:
Anything he said about what comes after the 3-4 years of difficulty?
After 3 - 4 years, it would become routine that one would not notice, so era of peace will dawn

Trump will not be reelected (after 4) or impeached after 3?

kiranA · Post by **kiranA** » 06 Mar 2017 10:26

ramana wrote:Kiran, Calm down UB has fought in Trenches for Indian Americans.
What he , Primus, Darshan are telling is reality.
Yes we need to think about future.
To do that we need to know the past.
In 1980 the Census wanted to move Indians from Caucasian to different category. There was a weekend seminar at Rutgers.
All old timers wrestling up in arms.
One old lady spoke. She said "you all are thinking about your privileged backgrounds of IIT and D School economics. What about the children?
How many of you are sending your kids to elite schools like your parents did in India making sacrifices.
Very few."
She supported the exclusion from White pool.

I thought then WTF.
Now she is right.

We need to know where we were before we can envision where we want to be.
Right now IA have the highest per capita income.

We need to see how to sustain that.

I am more than willing to know about all that. But I am struggling to understand how any of it entitles him to come swinging at me like that and also berate a large section of indian community. It reminds me of racial bullying in a movie where local englishman berates an Indian shopkeeper with "my dad fought in war ..what f** did you do for this country". watch herehttps://youtu.be/rzok3LsOtR4?t=103 .

There has been a huge change in the composition of Indian community in USA- vast majority are non-immigrant aliens - mainly in response to IT outsourcing strategies developed in USA by US companies and later by Indian companies. I think we all need to respectfully adapt and realize the past narratives about Indian community may not work.

Despite my reservations I will take your advise and try not to give it back what he dishes out and I hope he changes too.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 06 Mar 2017 10:58

OmkarC wrote:^^ I don't know. But you should've seen hundreds of desis (and a couple of gora/goris) chanting Hanuman Chalisa in a maxed out auditorium in the heart of US - will never forget the positive energy I felt that day.

I may have been there that day when the Hanuman temple was finished. I would say this may be one of the largest Hanuman temples in North America. The nice thing is that many devotees are upper middle class and the management is one of the better temples in the US.

At the time, Guru Datta was referring to the sacrifices over the next few years to make the temple a successful place of worship in order to bring the energy of Lord Hanuman for the benefit of all beings in the North Dallas area.

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 06 Mar 2017 10:58

Desi people in the US will be attacked as they are not whites by whites and for many others for being something or not being something. This is to be expected. If Desi people in India or in the US ( or anywhere in the West) think that they will be recognised as equals, they are mistaken. Most of the Goras do not even know about us and what we are. All they see is brown skin so a Muslim and if you are Sikh then you are a person dressed like Osama. The series of recent incidents are only known because MSM in India picked them up and I am sure MSM in the US also did it because it fits into a narrative. They are not going to accept that there is racism in the US in general and the present incidents are only a symptom of that disease. They say that DT is to blame. He may well be. But his voters/supporters did not become racists overnight. There are always there. It is the same voters that voted for Obomber.

As the fortunes of the US go down they need scapegoats and Desis fit into that bill.