LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 10 Mar 2017 01:56

Rakesh wrote:@Jay_S, @Manish_Sharma, @srai: Mk 2 is a clear & present danger to the single engine fighter purchase. That's the reason for this constant bashing on Mk 2 (and also on Mk 1A and Mk 1). Anything to buy the F-Solah. The irony is the IAF does not even want the F-Solah. The love the Gripen E, even though it does not exist! The only spanner in the works for the IAF were the Indian and US Govts who were cozying up to each other because of China. Then Trump happened and you saw the rhona-dhona on BRF from the pro F-Solah crowd. Now they are catching at straws and desperately hoping the Trump Administration continues the Obama Administration's policy towards India wrt to the F-Solah.

Make America Great Again is diametrically opposite to Make In India.

You nailed it chief.
While Trump is threatening Ford into keeping its factory on the North side of the wall ... why would the F-16 factory move across the oceans.
Trump could possibly be the best thing that happened to our domestic programmes.

Short Term Pain, Long Term Gain (is coming)

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 10 Mar 2017 05:02

Hasn't the announcement been made that all future F-16s will be made in the USA onlee

GhalibKabir · Post by **GhalibKabir** » 10 Mar 2017 07:27

Gagan wrote:Hasn't the announcement been made that all future F-16s will be made in the USA onlee

I think some sort of screw driver giri F-16 assembly is what will happen under a trump deal eventually. 50 odd F-16s off the shelf as a sop to him (with a decent story for him sell a 'domestic jobs' triumph on sidelines of a Modi Summit in late 2017) and 100-150 assembled in some form in India through 2030 in a parallel line. In the meanwhile Mk2 numbers might be a max 150-200 implying 300-400 jets get added by 2030-2032 replacing the -21s, 27s and some 29s.

I don't know what gives in our engine development program. Safran does not seem to be that helpful, GE/Boeing won't help, the Su-30 saga shows even the Russkies are tight fisted with actual ToT..(not that money can get tech, somethings dont get shared, i get that)

All the explanations I read just don't add up...

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 10 Mar 2017 07:44

Can't we do this screwdriver giri for the medium segment where we don't impede our own product? Get the F18/f35

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 10 Mar 2017 07:46

Make America Great will also make India Great! [The GE deal is also a high-rise creeper fruit] but not vice-versa. A good news on Kaveri is all that matters. Rest is master card

GhalibKabir · Post by **GhalibKabir** » 10 Mar 2017 08:03

Cybaru wrote:Can't we do this screwdriver giri for the medium segment where we don't impede our own product? Get the F18/f35

Point taken...this could happen if SH-18 is chosen for the 57 jet IN need.. we might also see land based F-18s also and this could eventually lead to a F-35 deal if AMCA does not shape up well.

My thought is that the F-16 deal could also lead to a 50-100 F-35 off the shelf jet deal later if PLAN and PLAAF are adding J-20s in so many numbers and giving the TSP J-31s where our FGFA and AMCA have not been inducted yet.. this is where we might be headed..

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 10 Mar 2017 08:37

Yaa,
Let IAF and IN order the FA-18

That is actually the AMCA-lite for you right there.
Same two engines, same engine placement, same same everything including possibly the size of the jet.
Just added stealth and 5th gen sensor fusion and AESA and a dabba in the bottom to hold 4 mijjiles or LGBums

GhalibKabir · Post by **GhalibKabir** » 10 Mar 2017 08:57

Gagan wrote:Yaa,
Let IAF and IN order the FA-18

That is actually the AMCA-lite for you right there.
Same two engines, same engine placement, same same everything including possibly the size of the jet.
Just added stealth and 5th gen sensor fusion and AESA and a dabba in the bottom to hold 4 mijjiles or LGBums

I don't like it either, but, from the information available (if correct) it does seem we could be headed that way. as things stand the AMCA is still on paper and with the engine related development time line we have been having... hard to see what else could cover the minimum needed against growing PLAAF/PLAN and satellite state TSP's abilities.

I wish they could accelerate the Mk.2 with well monitored/policed time lines... but that would mean similar to the S-400 deal we for go offset options and focus on getting a functional naval LCA (GE-414, Elta 2052 plus weapons etc.) and Mk. 2 in minimal numbers... before the domestic engine and local AESA etc can come through on later blocks...

else it might well be the F-16/18 route followed by F-35 with minimal Mk2s and naval LCAs added through 2035...

A Deshmukh · Post by **A Deshmukh** » 10 Mar 2017 11:33

Letting my imagination run wild:

We should buy 100F-16/18s if US agrees to buy 100LCA Mk1A/U.

US benefits:
LCA will have GE engines - more engine orders.
LCA US version can be integrated with US missiles.
They will get cheaper planes at the lower end of the spectrum which can fulfill a specific niche role (say CAP in MiddleEast).
Additional Indian order of 100 US F-16/18s.

Indian benefits:
LCA order doubles and multiplies further with NATO & other allied countries.
One production line of F16/18 should be shifted to India, stabilizing our nascent aerospace pvt industry.
F16/18 production line and pvt industry infrastructure can service 1000s of existing F16/18s with spares, MLUs and other routine maintenance work.

Neshant · Post by **Neshant** » 10 Mar 2017 11:51

Khalsa wrote: While Trump is threatening Ford into keeping its factory on the North side of the wall ... why would the F-16 factory move across the oceans.

because USAF is not buying F-16.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 10 Mar 2017 12:12

Why throw sops to Trump when the US is tightfisted with visas? We should do exactly what Trump is doing,protecting our own aviation industry by accelerating the LCA dev. and production.It should be a "national mission".

When the Pakis have been flying the bird for decades and now want SU-35s-the Ru equiv of the MKI,why should we want the US and Paki cast-off,when the MKI is considered top dog globally (barring the F-22)?

Buying the F-16 would be an absurdity,beyond comprehension. In fact the entire "SE" requirement is a deliberate fudge,meant to favour the F-16 which Boeing is "casting off" onto us as if we are beggars fighting for crumbs! The requirement instead should've been a cost-effective fighter for the IAF to perform the light or med roles,

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 10 Mar 2017 12:13

benefit of a GTRE-Safran engine for Mk2 and AMCA would be we can export it to iran, iraq or others out of favour of whichever posture the massa adopts. with a GE engine forget about exports.

for Mk1A we are locked into GE 414 that I agree.

or like the F16 and F15 had two engines we could build initial lot of Mk2 with GE414EPE and then further tranches for domestic and export with this Kaveri2 engine and get massas warm paw off our balls.

RKumar · Post by **RKumar** » 10 Mar 2017 13:31

I see people pulling in 4 different directions
- Import f16/f18/f35
- import s-35 and pkfa
- build LCA, amca
- export LCA, amca

Now import body and news walas want to kill local development. IAF is also not helping matter with peroidic statements of 20 sqs / no alternative to imports.

I also don't understand MoD, they are ready to fund 1 billion with safran to fix kaveri engine but not want to fund money for test platform. Ready to pay 5 billion to Russians but can't allocated half billion for AMCA. Why not fund 200 million for gun development and another 200 million for fully automated production line for ammo and guns??

I don't understand what is wrong with decision making body?? We don't trust our own people but we have faith on other countries??

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 10 Mar 2017 14:12

problem - its not a unified team working toward ONE goal of increasing composite national power (CNP) or one strong unified leader (like the cheen premier) making every duck line up in one row

IAF pov - they are concerned with day to day uptimes, operational ease, advantages over enemy platforms in a situation where a border war with TSP or Cheen combo is likely. they do not want to risk their own lives in inferior platforms if superior ones can be made available. and who can blame that pov? its their lives on line not mine.

MOD POv - the corrupt sections feel there is more money to be made in imports. the honest sections are scared stiff of being framed or caught in some scandal. or being hauled by PM for delaying service needs in favour of domestic projects. arms dealers & political shadow players have deep claws into MOD and services HQ in Delhi with leaks etc. everyone is scared.

DRDO complex - the kamchor sections wants to do less work but get full funding for long projects knowing it might not deliver anything productizable , the honest sections want to work and do well but are upset at lack of direct interest by services (except IN and increasingly IAF) in their ideas and products if any form of import is available. where imports are not available they grudgingly accept stuff after N rounds of seasonal trials and 20 hoops to jump through.

I think PMO/DM is trying the hybrid-war approach to get around these conflict short and long term goals.

for the short term they are willing to import stuff like SRSAM, paveway, S400 and Spike which DRDO has parallel projects going on which might take few years to IOC

for the long term they are funding all these 10s of domestic projects including parallel ones and HTT40 is also being allowed to continue on HALs own funds.

there will not be one magical cutover day when we will be 100% swadeshi but as you see in the case of Akash or Astra or 3D radars .. entire high value segments are slowly being taken over by swadeshi manch..and they are not going back to imports.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 10 Mar 2017 14:47

Now that Safran is going to make Kaveri come good I wanted to ask - what happened to the "foreign consultants" who were consulted for Saras and IJT? Did they speed things up a lot?

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 10 Mar 2017 16:42

The Indian MIC is not imported, you see? Regular desi folk are working there, in regular desi environment. So, regular desi vices are indeed at play.

I hear cringe worthy stories whenever I have chai-biscoot.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 10 Mar 2017 20:54

Committee on Defense

[uote]On 01 July 2016 IAF formed first LCA squadron and efforts are on to ensure that the
fleet is operationalized in IAF at the earliest. IAF is also progressing the case for procurement
of additional LCA Mk-1A aircraft to increase total number of LCA in IAF over six squadrons.
Further, the IGA, Aircraft and Weapons Package Supply Protocols and Offset Contracts have
been concluded for the Rafale fighter aircraft and supplies will commence from September,
2019. The issues pertaining to the Research and Development of Fifth Generation Fighter
Aircraft (FGFA) are under discussion with the Russian side. [/quote]

srai · Post by **srai** » 11 Mar 2017 05:19

^^^

If more orders for LCA are placed, then India should competitively select one or two private players to setup final assembly lines with 8 (each) to 16 unit/year?

Shankk · Post by **Shankk** » 11 Mar 2017 07:01

RKumar wrote:I also don't understand MoD, they are ready to fund 1 billion with safran to fix kaveri engine but not want to fund money for test platform. Ready to pay 5 billion to Russians but can't allocated half billion for AMCA. Why not fund 200 million for gun development and another 200 million for fully automated production line for ammo and guns??

I don't understand what is wrong with decision making body?? We don't trust our own people but we have faith on other countries??

Things are progressing albeit not fast enough for jingos here but they are. See this from link below. Originally posted by srai in missile forum.

Crucial Engine For India’s Cruise Missiles Revs Up

Don't go by the heading. Article is about missiles but also talks about aero engines. See below quotes.

Significantly, the GTRE isn’t fully equipped to test the Manik and is working fast to add test capabilities and infrastructure. This was borne out yesterday in the defence standing committee’s report to Parliament, where the MoD made the following admission:

“The existing Fan & Compressor Test Facility at Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE) has inadequate capacity and has become obsolete. To carry out testing of Fan & Compressor for existing and future generation gas turbine engine programmes of GTRE, it is essential to have a dedicated Fan & Compressor test facility at GTRE. GTRE is working out the budgetary cost of this facility to be established ‘on turnkey basis’ with an objective to initiate EPC approval by end of Oct 2016.”

The report further details aggressive plans to beef up a non-existent engine development and validation ecosystem in South India:

“The design improvement and validation of aero engine components and modules through testing is a continuous activity to enhance and demonstrate engine performance and reliability. At present, only limited aerodynamic and structural testing can be conducted within the country. Hence, the required component testing facilities at an estimated cost of Rs.1330 crore are planned to be established by DRDO at Rajanakunte, Bengaluru for development of Ghatak engine and all future generation aero engines.”

In addition, the DRDO is reported to be planning a twin test cell at GTRE to carry out ‘performance testing of gas turbine engines upto 130 kN thrust class’, which includes all versions of the Kaveri engine, including the dry version being developed for the Ghatak stealth UCAV. The bolstering of gas turbine development and testing infrastructure is belated but very welcome: it amplifies a recognition that India is willing to invest in one of the toughest areas of military science, one that has tormented the most advanced nations, and is currently harrowing China too.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 11 Mar 2017 07:25

Shankk wrote:
In addition, the DRDO is reported to be planning a twin test cell at GTRE to carry out ‘performance testing of gas turbine engines upto 130 kN thrust class’, which includes all versions of the Kaveri engine, including the dry version being developed for the Ghatak stealth UCAV. The bolstering of gas turbine development and testing infrastructure is belated but very welcome: it amplifies a recognition that India is willing to invest in one of the toughest areas of ~~military science~~ technology and engineering, one that has tormented the most advanced nations, and is currently harrowing China too.

..corrected

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 11 Mar 2017 08:57

shiv wrote:Now that Safran is going to make Kaveri come good I wanted to ask - what happened to the "foreign consultants" who were consulted for Saras and IJT? Did they speed things up a lot?

How dare you ask such question n doubt the Noble intentions of the Superior races from Outside..? Dont you forget the countless poor turd world countries that they have uplifted through their benevolent ToT. Dont you forget the countless countries that have become enlightened and self sufficient in all the technology across the specturm and are fully industrialised today, some even have surpassed the capability of the West in same technology that were bestowed upon them by the West through ToT once upon a time.

srai · Post by **srai** » 11 Mar 2017 20:14

shiv wrote:Now that Safran is going to make Kaveri come good I wanted to ask - what happened to the "foreign consultants" who were consulted for Saras and IJT? Did they speed things up a lot?

What it provides is confidence--both to developer and end-user. Experienced/knowledgeable consultants are supposed to review current state, identify area of improvement/flaws and recommend solutions. They can help eliminate steps and dead-end paths upfront. They can also tell you if your design is sound.

No harm done. It's generally a good practice to get independent review, especially if you happen to be somewhat of a novice.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 11 Mar 2017 20:31

srai wrote:
What it provides is confidence--both to developer and end-user. Experienced/knowledgeable consultants are supposed to review current state, identify area of improvement/flaws and recommend solutions. They can help eliminate steps and dead-end paths upfront. They can also tell you if your design is sound.

No harm done. It's generally a good practice to get independent review, especially if you happen to be somewhat of a novice.

This is a fair explanation.

But I rarely make such sarcastic comments without being able to support them with thoughts of my own. I believe that Indians are so critical of our own people that outside opinions must be sought to prove that locals are not incompetent or traitors. We get "confidence" only when a foreigner puts his stamp on it

Jayalalitha was sick - so call in foreigners. She had nothing that could not be handled here and was handled very competently by a large number of very capable doctors and nurses. But the chap from Britain presumably "gave us confidence", After he gave his 2p presumably Indian doctors could look at others in the eye with confidence and say "The British doc, who has no axe to grind, also said xyz". That is the problem. We think every Indian has an axe to grind and is basically deceitful. This is how the Brits looked at us.

Mayawati gets a new hole ripped in the election and she says EVMs were rigged and "America does not use them"

Arjun vs T 90. Get the Israelis involved

Saras: ask the Germans

IJT: Ask the Brits

What are the results?

1. Jayalalitha is dead
2. Saras yet to fly again
3. Arjun limping towards the desert
4. IJT: Stalling but not spinning, or should I say "stalled, and in a spin"? But that is rhetoric

As a nation we are so sooo "balanced and neutral" , so "fair" and such good "world citizens" like Nehru that it is not enough to respect our own people. We genuinely believe that we can get confidence from external validation. How on earth can we ever export anything if we have so little confidence in our own? Even the jingos among us are brought up to subconsciously feel that we are always on the lower side of fair to middling. There is no pride in India and Indian capability.

Neilz · Post by **Neilz** » 12 Mar 2017 00:14

shiv wrote:
srai wrote:
What it provides is confidence--both to developer and end-user. Experienced/knowledgeable consultants are supposed to review current state, identify area of improvement/flaws and recommend solutions. They can help eliminate steps and dead-end paths upfront. They can also tell you if your design is sound.

brought up to subconsciously feel that we are always on the lower side of fair to middling. There is no pride in India and Indian capability.

This is a gray area. What is rightful consultation at what not. I have one experience where after the device was developed and matched performance of a world reputed supplier, our own desi marketing team was in dilemma.. and finally took the device to test outside India for testing and only after that they believe. Here there is 2 points to ponder:
1. Not every such kind can be disclosed for the fear of accidental disclose to competitors.
2. Simple there is generation which are occupied in middle and senior management level who brought up with the education and notion that anything foreign must be good. And desi must be fluke.

But in my generation and subsequent do not have that mental baggage anymore. And slowly our kind of people are moving into middle level. And present juniors are asking why we cant type question too often. Also industry now is more scattered which paves way for testing or cross verification or lab facilities on hire where a substantial chunk of devices can go in isolated way simply because there are many more option available in India itself. Which helps maintain the secrecy. Also, companies with vision for next centuries stared investing in in-house testing facilities and labs.

So give more time perhaps a decade, and you will see a change, more visible, more on your face.... But then again , it pained me when Paytm was sold to alibaba. every opportunity lost is a loss.

Forgive me for this offtopic.

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 12 Mar 2017 07:46

Well, we grew up with Ambassador/Padmini onlee. We need to wait till the Scorpio generation come of age to start getting self respect.

On topic, at least at the trenches where xCAs come from, phoren maal is looked down, and desi competency is appreciated. As the amby generation retire off from the users, things are improving onlee.

Rishi_Tri · Post by **Rishi_Tri** » 12 Mar 2017 14:46

Good number of Ambassador / Padmini generation has blazing confidence and fierce independence emanating from memories or stories of pre independence. Yes, for those on payrolls of Brit masters - armed services were always them - all phoren was fantastic.

LCA for all practical purposes is by Ambassador generation and that is why we made it past 1998 sanctions. Anyway, look forward to the day, full squadron is based in Sulur and is used to scramble jets to intercept airliners missing ATC chatter.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 12 Mar 2017 17:36

When MiG 21s and MiG 27s retire, which aircraft will do battlefield interdiction and close air support?

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 12 Mar 2017 18:36

^^^Mental baggage etc. There's a much simpler explanation for the 'lack of confidence' in our products. It really derives from a scarcity driven economy for for the fits 50 years. Basically, a state driven setup that had no competition. You sold what was produced (examples Amby, Padmini, Bajaj scooters etc). You did not need marketing.

Now, with choices, you need to market. It's highly evolved in the consumer goods sector but not so much in capital goods. And particularly not in PSUs where the customers were captive.

Marketing types are inherently suspicious because if the product is not the result of a process and just appears from engineering, they are right to want confirmation of a product/market fit. They can't rely on 'claims'.

Some PSUs may make great products but they have no idea how to sell them. We need IAI to sell Dhruvs. PR releases are conflated with marketing.

That's one huge reason I'm so anxious to have the MII done by private companies. BTW , marketing arms is a different ballgame altogether as the Japanese have learned with their Soryus and Shinmayas

Chinmay · Post by **Chinmay** » 12 Mar 2017 19:37

shiv wrote:When MiG 21s and MiG 27s retire, which aircraft will do battlefield interdiction and close air support?

Any available ones? AFAIK, Su-30s, MiG-29s, Mirages, Jags all can do it. Plus Rafales in the future.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 12 Mar 2017 20:01

Chinmay wrote:
shiv wrote:When MiG 21s and MiG 27s retire, which aircraft will do battlefield interdiction and close air support?
Any available ones? AFAIK, Su-30s, MiG-29s, Mirages, Jags all can do it. Plus Rafales in the future.

In fact none of those fighters are designed for that role or appropriate, although "they can" do it. I don't think IAF MiG 29s can do it at all. This is why I asked. I am also asking, why is no one (not you personally) talking about the Tejas in this role. Interdiction within 200 km of base, small - makes a difficult target, 350 meter radius turn at low level ( far faaaaar better than Jaguar). Jags in fact do not fit this role at all. They are designed for low level medium distance penetration. They will be the ones hitting targets 500 km in Tibet. The Tejas will certainly fit the role better than the MiG 21 which was used extensively in 1971 and 1991 for the same role

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 12 Mar 2017 20:05

We have no plan for interdictors. IA is on its own. Combat helis and Multi-purpose planes are supposed to fill that gap. Only war can tell how good this theory is. I hope we don't learn the hard way.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 12 Mar 2017 20:07

fanne wrote:We have no plan for interdictors. IA is on its own. Combat helis and Multi-purpose planes are supposed to fill that gap. Only war can tell how good this theory is. I hope we don't learn the hard way.

LCA-Army anyone?

That said the Air Force did CAS/ battlefield interdiction in 1965, 1971 and 1999 and will do it again

Chinmay · Post by **Chinmay** » 12 Mar 2017 20:17

Do we need a pure CAS/air interdiction aircraft? The Tejas isnt designed to be a CAS aircraft either but can perform that role as well, along with the aforementioned aircraft. Mirages did that job for us during the Kargil war.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 12 Mar 2017 21:24

Chinmay wrote:Do we need a pure CAS/air interdiction aircraft? The Tejas isnt designed to be a CAS aircraft either but can perform that role as well, along with the aforementioned aircraft. Mirages did that job for us during the Kargil war.

Well it's like this

The Gnat was designed to be a pure interceptor. We used it for interdiction as well (strafing)
Same story with MiG 21
Repeat and rinse with Mirage 2000, acquired for air superiority but which worked for CAS/battlefield interdiction where Jags and others failed
Tejas at least is designed as a "multirole/swingrole" aircraft

Jags are good only for low level medium distance penetration.
Su 30s will be needed for air superiority and long distance attack role
Mirage 2000 - air superiority and secondary attack
Rafale's range and weaponry and limited numbers would make it a wasted asset unless used for deep strike missions and escort
Tejas does not have the range for deep strike. But it has the avionics and capability for CAS/Interdiction

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 12 Mar 2017 21:46

Neshant wrote:
Khalsa wrote: While Trump is threatening Ford into keeping its factory on the North side of the wall ... why would the F-16 factory move across the oceans.
because USAF is not buying F-16.

The ford situationnis about closing existing factory in USA (that is fine) than opening the same factory in Mexico ( thats ok too) than reimporting those cars back in usa -not ok.

So this doesn't apply to f16/18 deal. Building indian f16 in India is not going to be problem for americans but it should be a problem gor us. The products are at the end of the life cycle, no one in the world's buying it, why are we so willing to be the sucker #1?

Only single engine aircraft bedides LCA that makes any sense is F35......rest is all BS.
Just my sdre 2 ct

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 13 Mar 2017 01:43

Chinmay wrote:Do we need a pure CAS/air interdiction aircraft? The Tejas isnt designed to be a CAS aircraft either but can perform that role as well, along with the aforementioned aircraft. Mirages did that job for us during the Kargil war.

Which aircraft in production today is designed for CAS? While I am at it,
what are characteristics of a CAS aircraft?
What munitions, what altitude in your mind will they be operating at?

We can't really talk about CAS today without clarifying these questions.

Chinmay · Post by **Chinmay** » 13 Mar 2017 06:28

Cybaru, my response was to Shiv's query. CAS is a mission and has been performed by all aircraft ranging from drones to helicopters to B1 bombers, so no aircraft in production today has been 'designed for' CAS. The era of dedicated CAS aircraft like the A-10 or Su-25 is over.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 13 Mar 2017 07:55

Chinmay wrote:Cybaru, my response was to Shiv's query. CAS is a mission and has been performed by all aircraft ranging from drones to helicopters to B1 bombers, so no aircraft in production today has been 'designed for' CAS. The era of dedicated CAS aircraft like the A-10 or Su-25 is over.

Sorry my very bad. I didn't read properly. I didn't see "Do" we...

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 13 Mar 2017 15:20

This thread is not LCA thread anymore

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 13 Mar 2017 23:16

Guys, Why are you posting off topic posts here?

GD, Et tu?