Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 11 Mar 2017 21:53

AdityaM wrote:
Supratik wrote:So it was basically a software change.
Does this mean that all these years the missile was designed with extra & needless space & Dimensions.

Why was it not engineered with reduced length since it's range was shorter.

Were the planners always expecting a MTCR signup?

Perhaps it was always this capable.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 11 Mar 2017 21:55

AdityaM wrote:
Supratik wrote:So it was basically a software change.
Does this mean that all these years the missile was designed with extra & needless space & Dimensions.

Why was it not engineered with reduced length since it's range was shorter.

Were the planners always expecting a MTCR signup?

Altitude change onlee. Fry rowel and go onree 297 km. Fry highel and go 400+ km

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 11 Mar 2017 22:15

It's like BMWs and Audis having top speed electronically limited to 250 KMPH, as part of a gentleman's agreement.

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 11 Mar 2017 22:26

I'd go as far as to say that there wasn't any change made to the missile but the limit was always in the targeting system.

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 11 Mar 2017 22:29

Does this mean all our naval ships that are armed with BrahMos have to make port so that required changes can be made to increase the range?

arunsrinivasan · Post by **arunsrinivasan** » 11 Mar 2017 22:41

Does it mean that we can increase the range of Brahmos missiles in our inventory with a software change?

Supratik · Post by **Supratik** » 11 Mar 2017 22:53

The dimensions of the missile are more or less same as its Russian father. It was either a gentleman's agreement or a wink-wink nod-nod agreement. The west knew but kept silent just like they did with nuke submarines as it is mainly directed against China.

Bheeshma · Post by **Bheeshma** » 11 Mar 2017 22:56

The range was always there, I wonder if the new Brahmos-II is the new missile with 800-1000 km range? That along with 2000 km range Shaurya should take care of chinese in occupied tibet.

sudeepj · Post by **sudeepj** » 12 Mar 2017 00:36

Brahmos carries a 300Kg warhead.. Is it possible to extend the range even more by getting rid of the warhead and rely on the kinetic energy of the missile alone? This could work against fixed structures given the accuracy of the missile.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 12 Mar 2017 02:25

sudeepj wrote:Brahmos carries a 300Kg warhead.. Is it possible to extend the range even more by getting rid of the warhead and rely on the kinetic energy of the missile alone? This could work against fixed structures given the accuracy of the missile.

Very interesting idea.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 12 Mar 2017 07:19

AdityaM wrote:
Supratik wrote:So it was basically a software change.
Does this mean that all these years the missile was designed with extra & needless space & Dimensions.

Why was it not engineered with reduced length since it's range was shorter.

Were the planners always expecting a MTCR signup?

Simple answer is Yes.

That "with extra & needless space & Dimensions" is indeed necessary considering the profile the missile executes.

You may recall it has three profiles.
i hi hi
ii. hi lo
iii. lo lo

While hi-hi and hi-lo profiles can take it beyond 300 km & restricted by software, that "extra fuel & space" is needed for lo-lo profile to take it to the necessary distance.

We seldom talk about lo-lo profile, don't we?

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 12 Mar 2017 07:32

arunsrinivasan wrote:Does it mean that we can increase the range of Brahmos missiles in our inventory with a software change?

Yes, by default all missiles in our inventory have that extended range. Restriction in range arise due to software lock.

As i mentioned few pages back, @hi-lo mode range is 400+ km, @ hi-hi mode range is 600+ km.

These are the default ranges of the missile that was designed more than a decade back.

With improved engineering, miniaturisation, latest tech available at present, same missile re-engineered with latest tech can do 800+ km range @ hi-lo mode.

It all depends on user wish, when & what config they want.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 12 Mar 2017 07:47

SSridhar wrote:If they are 'user trials' or 'pre-induction trials', then one can understand that so long as they are not DRDO's trials. Normally, the missile is declared 'operational' after three DRDO trials. The user trials begin after that and are inducted into service later.

I agree with you on the missiles being rammed down the throat of SFC. But, it is also good in one way because we learn to make do with whatever that is available.

Sir, general observation in such scenario is either the missile is faulty if not then there is most likely modifications for which more trials could be needed. My views!

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 12 Mar 2017 08:08

JayS wrote:
I really liked the concept of LRCM. I dont know any other such missile. Does anyone else has the same concept CM with subsonic cruise and supersonic terminal phase...??

It is exactly similar to AShm version of Kalibr missile whose range is 1000+ km and whose export ver is known as klub missile with range restricted to 300 km.
IN do have klub variants in her arsenal.

Land attack variant of kalibr missile is purely subsonic.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 12 Mar 2017 08:15

From February 2017 interview of Dr. S. Christopher
What is the update on Nag anti-tank
missile?
Nag will only have the infrared guid-
ance system. There won’t be any mil-
limetric wave because the diameter
of the missile is small. If we go for an
X-band or a Ku-band system, the size
has to be reasonable. The only problem
is that it is not able to reach the desired
7km during the day time (11 am to 3
pm) when the temperature of the body
is higher than the surroundings. We are
only getting about 5 km range during
this time.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 12 Mar 2017 08:26

Wow! Cat is out of the bag.
Now all those suspecting Nag's & its design team performance should take a dip in Ganges.
As i said, Nag when ready will be the best missile in its category.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 12 Mar 2017 08:47

...after a couple billion $$ are spent on javelin and hellfire

Srutayus · Post by **Srutayus** » 12 Mar 2017 09:12

...after a couple billion $$ are spent on javelin and hellfire

…which probably cannot even attain the 5km achieved by the present nag in the mid afternoon test conditions in the Thar.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 12 Mar 2017 11:01

Shall i give out a small secret: even that is solved.

Supratik · Post by **Supratik** » 12 Mar 2017 11:44

I believe Brahmos NG has a smaller warhead.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 12 Mar 2017 12:03

Srutayus wrote:
...after a couple billion $$ are spent on javelin and hellfire
…which probably cannot even attain the 5km achieved by the present nag in the mid afternoon test conditions in the Thar.

Shhh...

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 12 Mar 2017 12:24

Brahmos always had a range of ~ 450 km but was software restricted to ~ 290 km due to MTCR restrictions once Indian joined MTCR those restrictions were taken off.

Here is Russian Official MOD figures on Onyx system from which Brahmos is derived

Maximum firing range against land targets: 450km
Maximum firing range against sea targets: from 180 to 350km
Minimum firing range: 15km
Maximum distance between missile launchers and seacoast : up to 200km

^^ So Hi-Hi-Lo Trajectory is 450 km , Hi-Lo-Lo Trajectory is ~ 350 km and Lo-Lo Trajectory is 180 km ..The latter two are anti-ship variant

Russian MOD confirmed the same range post use of Onyx in Syria

http://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/3785071

In addition, there also put coastal complexes" Bastion " who have closed almost all the coast and today these complexes, we are able to destroy both sea and ground targets ", - the minister said, adding that it was a distance of 350 kilometers in the sea and nearly 450 kilometers on land.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 12 Mar 2017 12:41

We didn't have a land based test to 450 km right? We tested against a sea based target...

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 12 Mar 2017 15:12

^ Cybaru, tested was land attack variant.

Austin, thanks for the input. Just want to clarify, do Onyx perform Steep vertical dive (70 to 90 deg)as that of Brahmos block III land attack variant?

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 12 Mar 2017 15:24

When we started developing Brahmos from Onyx, Onyx only had hi-lo & lo-lo version and that too only against Ships.

Onyx added land attack variant latter, latter than Brahmos land variant. To compare, it is similar to Brahmos Block I land attack variant.

We developed Brahmos further to vertical steep dive variant with manoeuvring capabilities. This I refer as hi-hi mode. In hi-hi mode (it was first tested in India in that fashion ) it give ranges of 600 km.

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 12 Mar 2017 17:44

Kanson, If Brahmos continues to have powered flight even at terminal stage then its range may be (only) 600km but if the fuel is expended at high altitude (say 20km ceiling) and the missile glides down rest of the way, will the range not increase further to say 800-1200km?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 12 Mar 2017 18:00

Gyan wrote:Kanson, If Brahmos continues to have powered flight even at terminal stage then its range may be (only) 600km but if the fuel is expended at high altitude (say 20km ceiling) and the missile glides down rest of the way, will the range not increase further to say 800-1200km?

It will be subsonic near the end of its flight if it does that

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 12 Mar 2017 18:13

Gyan wrote: . . . but if the fuel is expended at high altitude (say 20km ceiling) and the missile glides down rest of the way, will the range not increase further to say 800-1200km?

As a cruise missile, BrahMos is powered all the way. However, if fuel is expended midway, then BrahMos wouldn't be able to perform all those wonderful terminal manoueveres like the S loop or vertical dive etc that defeat any defence.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 12 Mar 2017 18:54

Gyan wrote:Kanson, If Brahmos continues to have powered flight even at terminal stage then its range may be (only) 600km but if the fuel is expended at high altitude (say 20km ceiling) and the missile glides down rest of the way, will the range not increase further to say 800-1200km?

If only the missile is designed to glide, the missile will glide at that alt afterthat falls like a rock. I don't think Brahmos is designed to do that. Height ceiling of Brahmos is at 14 km alt. At that height it can't cover another 600 km if it has to follow a simple ballistic trajectory.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 12 Mar 2017 19:39

The Hi-Hi-Dive or Hi-Hi-Lo Trajectory is 450 km that much is clear , Brahmos will not magically make to 600 or higher range than 450 km.

At at average speed of M 2.5 it would cover the entire 450 km in less than 9 minutes but Officially they say Speed of Mach 2.9

For longer range Brahmos of 800-850 km they will have to build a new missile atleast increase the length by a meter or half and use higher energetic fuel and more fuel efficient engine

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 12 Mar 2017 19:43

BrahMos: India-Russia create history with successful test of longer range 450-km version of supersonic cruise missile

http://www.financialexpress.com/india-n ... le/583856/

Giving a significant edge to India’s defence preparedness and strike capability, an extended range version of the BrahMos cruise missile has been successfully test fired! The latest 450-km range version of the cruise missile was tested from the Integrated Test Range (ITR) Chandipur at sea in Balasore, off the coast of Odisha.

Talking about today’s test, Sudhir Mishra, MD & CEO of BrahMos Aerospace said, “The extended range BrahMos hit the target with centimetric accuracy. It’s a big leg up for us and it was a fantastic test flight. With this new version, all three forces, Army, Navy and IAF will have the capability to strike deep into the enemy’s territory.” “This is the first for the world – a supersonic cruise missile with such a high range,” Mishra told FE Online. “BrahMos is the first beneficiary of India’s MTCR membership. We have fulfilled the government’s dream. The BrahMos missile is one of the most precise and accurate in the world,” he added.

“During the launch at 1130 hrs, the land-attack version of the supersonic cruise missile system met its mission parameters in a copybook manner. It was a text book launch achieving 100% results, executed with high precision from the Mobile Autonomous Launcher (MAL) deployed in full configuration,” said BrahMos in a statement. According to BrahMos Aerospace, “the formidable missile system once again proved its mettle to precisely hit enemy targets at much higher range than the current range of 290 km, with supersonic speed of 2.8 Mach”.

At Aero India 2017, DRDO chief S Christopher had said that India and Russia have agreed to the enhancement of BrahMos’ range to 450 km, and the tentative date for the test of the new version of the supersonic cruise missile is March 10. The new 450-km version is likely to send jitters in Pakistan. The news from Aero India also suggested that China will soon have reason to be wary of Brahmos’ strike power. S Christopher said that yet another version of the BrahMos is under development, and it will have a range of 800 km! According to S Christopher, the missile will be ready for tests in the next two and a half years. Talking about the 800-km range missile, Mishra of BrahMos Aerospace said, “Many systems need to be reoriented and made for the enhanced range. But, I believe we will be ready with the new 800-km version of BrahMos within 2 years.”

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 12 Mar 2017 20:02

It will be ready in time for P-15B destroyers, IMO these are large enough to hold a bigger BrahMos.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 12 Mar 2017 20:32

Kanson wrote:From February 2017 interview of Dr. S. Christopher
What is the update on Nag anti-tank
missile?
Nag will only have the infrared guid-
ance system. There won’t be any mil-
limetric wave because the diameter
of the missile is small. If we go for an
X-band or a Ku-band system, the size
has to be reasonable. The only problem
is that it is not able to reach the desired
7km during the day time (11 am to 3
pm) when the temperature of the body
is higher than the surroundings. We are
only getting about 5 km range during
this time.

In all the news about Nag missile, the range mentioned has been 5 km. The earlier seeker was OK up to 3 km in peak temprature 11 am to 3 pm window and DRDO was working on improving the performance with a better seeker. AFAIK, last news on the topic was that Nag has achieved full 5 km range performance with newer seeker.

So, where is this 7 km range coming from? The only time I've heard of 7 km range is for HELINA. Please clarify. Thanks.

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 12 Mar 2017 20:39

i didnt understand..in the indian subcontinent battle situation/environment will tank formations be engaged at such long distances??

Srutayus · Post by **Srutayus** » 12 Mar 2017 21:06

i didnt understand..in the indian subcontinent battle situation/environment will tank formations be engaged at such long distances??

The point of such unrealistic requirements is to keep the indigenous product out and facilitate imports…which by the way will be held to much more realistic standards.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 12 Mar 2017 21:28

manjgu wrote:i didnt understand..in the indian subcontinent battle situation/environment will tank formations be engaged at such long distances??

tut tut tut. You have not been reading your brochures. What right do you have to formulate requirements?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 12 Mar 2017 21:32

rohitvats wrote: So, where is this 7 km range coming from? The only time I've heard of 7 km range is for HELINA. Please clarify. Thanks.

There was a news report (and a statement made to me at Aero India 2013) that although Helina is good for 4 km the "most modern missiles" (as of 2012-13) had 7 km ranges and hence a range enhancement was demanded. Subsequent events made me feel that this may have been a "We need you match the latest MBDA/Rafael/Lockheed/whatever brochure" demand

I recall specifically asking in 2013 about this and the man at the Helina stall said (in what I felt was a rather resigned manner" that it worked for 4 km and that they will have to look into 7 km in future.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 12 Mar 2017 21:36

Why not use a visible light sensor (camera) along with the IIR seeker?

srai · Post by **srai** » 13 Mar 2017 00:55

Srutayus wrote:
i didnt understand..in the indian subcontinent battle situation/environment will tank formations be engaged at such long distances??
The point of such unrealistic requirements is to keep the indigenous product out and facilitate imports…which by the way will be held to much more realistic standards.

Search for "perfection" continues! Nag was ready as far back as 2010 but no orders have been placed as of 2017.

ramdas · Post by **ramdas** » 13 Mar 2017 08:58

Kanson wrote: Sir, general observation in such scenario is either the missile is faulty if not then there is most likely modifications for which more trials could be needed. My views!

So for the Agni-5, is it the modifications that are causing the extra trials ? If it were faulty, something would come out. Hope it is modified to carry MIRVs soon, and tested quickly. One A-5 test a year is very slow.