India-US relations: News and Discussions III

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 03 Apr 2017 03:22

Conversions are legitimate when proof of salvation is demonstrable. Otherwise they are human rights violations.

To further general understanding, please peruse the definitions of genocide carefully.

http://www.preventgenocide.org/genocide ... iendly.htm

darshan · Post by **darshan** » 03 Apr 2017 05:20

Gus wrote: it was somebody else's cow.

I understand that there's multiple stories about whether it was really cow meat found in his house.

But this is not like somebody was eating steak and mob lynched him.

Are people that removed from reality in India in what happens to pickpockets and thieves etc getting caught in rural areas?

Or even in auto accident.

darshan · Post by **darshan** » 03 Apr 2017 05:27

I grew up in town where having cows and dairy industry is a big thing. You did not have cows near buffer zone. Else you would not know when they would disappear like https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FBhfbSIEgJs

Back in the days I guess people were only afraid hearing sound of tempo trucks at night but now I guess one has to worry about even compact cars.

Dipanker · Post by **Dipanker** » 03 Apr 2017 06:35

chola wrote: Killing PEOPLE over religious hurt feelings is dark age shit that I condemn in Islam, Hinduism, Scientology or any other religion.

Agreed.

This is probably third time today I am reading people advocating killing in the name of hurt religious feeling over cow slaughter etc. I thought you could read such type of posts only in Paki forums.

Many moons ago in an earlier era of this forum, such posters used to get summarily banned, now times have changed.

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 03 Apr 2017 07:00

You will notice nil was said about killing in the name of Christianity. This has been a recurrent motif in this peculiar system of divine grace for two millennia from Christ to their Popes to Saint Thomas Aquinas and Martin Luther King; they just cannot bring themselves to name that shame.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 03 Apr 2017 08:41

One of the recurrent memes of euro exploration was no sooner had their rowboat landed on the beach of a unknown land they would claim the whole land and its resources for god , king and country

Dipanker · Post by **Dipanker** » 03 Apr 2017 11:51

Parting shot by Obama Admin.?

In US Government Report, Sharp Words For 'Rights Violations' In India

NEW DELHI:
HIGHLIGHTS
The report refers to police case against Teesta Setalvad, SIMI encounter
Sexual harassment, dowry death are serious societal problems, it says
It also talks about the 'Vyapam' scam in Madhya Pradesh

A US State Department report has sharply criticised the Indian government over alleged human rights violations, citing the police case against activist Teesta Setalvad and killing of eight suspected SIMI members in an encounter in Madhya Pradesh.

The report on 'Human Rights Practices in India for 2016' also referred to restrictions on foreign funding of NGOs, including some whose views the US government believed were not in the "national or public interest", female genital mutilation and dowry-related deaths as human rights problems in the country.

Citing the rejection of permits to 25 NGOs to receive foreign funds, including senior lawyer Indira Jaisingh's 'Lawyers Collective' and US-based Compassion International's two primary partners, the report highlighted how several of organisations these actions said it effected their operations in the country.

It also referred to a legal analysis published by the UN special rapporteur on freedom of assembly and association that claimed India's Foreign Contribution Regulation Act (a law that governs foreign funding) did not conform to international law, principles, and standards.

The report termed the police case against Teesta Setalvad, her husband Javed Anand and others for allegedly misusing donors' fund as an instance of "governmental attitude regarding international and non-governmental investigation of alleged violations of human rights".

The killing of eight members of the Students Islamic Movement of India (SIMI) in a police encounter after they escaped from Bhopal central jail also found a mention in the report under a sub-section "arbitrary deprivation of life and other unlawful or politically motivated killings".

The report also included a reference to the 'Vyapam' scam of Madhya Pradesh where irregularities were alleged to have been committed in recruitment in government jobs and admissions to technical educational institutions. The report termed it as an example of "corruption and lack of transparency in government". The CBI was investigating the death of 48 individuals allegedly linked to the scam over a span of five years. These included a journalist, who reported on the fraud, it said.

The most significant human rights problems, as per the report, involved instances of police and security force abuses, including extra judicial killings, torture, rape and corruption, which remained widespread and contributed to "ineffective responses" to crimes, including those against women, children, and members of Scheduled Castes or Scheduled Tribes.

Rape, domestic violence, dowry-related deaths, honour killings, sexual harassment, and discrimination against women and girls remained serious societal problems, the report said.

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 03 Apr 2017 11:53

Sanjay Kumar, you mean Martin Luther as in the one who started "Luthernism" in Germany or did you really meant Dr. MLK jr.?

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 03 Apr 2017 21:10

Certainly that terror of the Jew. Martin Luther King was a gentleman of the highest order.

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 04 Apr 2017 09:53

Dipanker wrote: This is probably third time today I am reading people advocating killing in the name of hurt religious feeling over cow slaughter etc. I thought you could read such type of posts only in Paki forums.

Many moons ago in an earlier era of this forum, such posters used to get summarily banned, now times have changed.

Sir, factual question to you. Has hindutva caused more deaths or communism throughout the history.

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 04 Apr 2017 13:54

Dipanker wrote:
chola wrote: Killing PEOPLE over religious hurt feelings is dark age shit that I condemn in Islam, Hinduism, Scientology or any other religion.
Agreed.

This is probably third time today I am reading people advocating killing in the name of hurt religious feeling over cow slaughter etc. I thought you could read such type of posts only in Paki forums.

Many moons ago in an earlier era of this forum, such posters used to get summarily banned, now times have changed.

Let me offer what I believe is a realistic and honest explanation of how India works.

It's not nice to hear or read such threats and they may in fact be outside the scope for BRF. Having said that, I think threats do find a place in India's communal negotiations, so to speak.

In the Indian context, lawful mechanisms for handling religiously and socially sensitive matters are at best a work in progress, not to speak of the very poor and tardy performance of the justice system. Even the necessary open debates required to work towards sensible and workable lawful mechanisms are almost impossible to have, due to legal and extra-legal restraints on free speech.

Given this situation, and given that we can't really wait till the legal system develops to meet actual societal needs, social and civilizational forces ranging from cordial and genuinely affectionate inter-communal relationships to threats to occasional violence, all play key roles in keeping social peace and making society functional and more or less pleasant. In terms of social results delivered, I would say the Indian system compares quite favorably with any so-called advanced European, American or Chinese legal system, by any fair metric.

When you hear of Hindus making these threats, it is often a matter of their playing catchup to Muslims who have developed communal coercion into a fine art in playing the game of social balance.

One may hope the legal system will catch up some day. In the meantime, Indian society lives on, with the communal balance shifting slightly one way or the other. There is no real danger of the balance collapsing (though overwrought warnings about a collapse will always be there, that being part of the game) since all parties are very good at the game, with Muslims and Christians having somewhat of an edge at present. As the Hindus get a little better, of course the others are not going to stand still.

This a long-ish explanation. And kind of boring and un-sexy. (Saying, in effect, "it's complicated" always sounds lame, even though that may be the truth) It is much easier and less time-consuming to simply judge and denounce India and Hindus as a horrible barbaric place and people, by implication in comparison to nicer places and peoples like Europe, America, China and their (white or honorary white) inhabitants.

Marten · Post by **Marten** » 04 Apr 2017 14:20

KLNM, great explanation. In this case, however, fact remains that an elected legislature will enact a law that sets the punishment for a crime. This might well get discussed or stuck in SC for decades but it is not the same as a communal threat or a lynch mob as bring depicted. That happened far more often in WB or Kerala where Commies used similar threats against Hindu interests and questioners/intellectuals would happily gloss over those crimes while waxing eloquent about lawlessness and procedure even if it is being enacted within spirit and word of law.

Question really is why it is being brought up on a completely unrelated thread.

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 04 Apr 2017 16:41

Trump May Help Broker Peace Between India And Pakistan, Says US’s Nikki Haley

https://swarajyamag.com/insta/trump-may ... ikki-haley

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 04 Apr 2017 19:38

Karthik S wrote:
Trump May Help Broker Peace Between India And Pakistan, Says US’s Nikki Haley
https://swarajyamag.com/insta/trump-may ... ikki-haley

She is just repeating like the slave she is, her master's voice with no originality. Of course, in Chutiya Lutyen Delhi, she is some "great India American", but for the rest of us, simple to decode Trump & Co. They are living up to their colonial view of the world. Notice also recently, some Indian American Uncle tom at MIT put out some crap about India re-thinking its no first use nukes, and then followed reports in NYT and other propaganda machines with India TSP dead equal narrative. No objective analysis on how to curb a terrorist abomination like TSP peddling nukes. Its all about India TSP India TSP and the white man's burden. And now this hot air from Nikki. So basically in Trump's world, he is the white knight whom Jesus Christ ordained to make the 2 bad boys India and TSP behave. So while us SDREs have a world view of ourselves: a responsible democratic growing nuke power having to deal with a terrorist abomination next door, Trump sees it just the way US has been for 70+ years.

Primus · Post by **Primus** » 04 Apr 2017 19:40

Singha wrote:One of the recurrent memes of euro exploration was no sooner had their rowboat landed on the beach of a unknown land they would claim the whole land and its resources for god , king and country

The Pope actually 'gave' the Eastern half of the world to the Portuguese and the Western half to the Spaniards. The arrogance of these people is legendary.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Tordesillas

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 04 Apr 2017 19:42

CRamS wrote:
Karthik S wrote:
https://swarajyamag.com/insta/trump-may ... ikki-haley
She is just repeating like the slave she is, her master's voice with no originality. Of course, in Chutiya Lutyen Delhi, she is some "great India American", but for the rest of us, simple to decode Trump & Co. They are living up to their colonial view of the world. Notice also recently, some Indian American Uncle tom at MIT put out some crap about India re-thinking its no first use nukes, and then followed reports in NYT and other propaganda machines with India TSP dead equal narrative. No objective analysis on how to curb a terrorist abomination like TSP peddling nukes. Its all about India TSP India TSP and the white man's burden. And now this hot air from Nikki. So basically in Trump's world, he is the white knight whom Jesus Christ ordained to make the 2 bad boys India and TSP behave. So while us SDREs have a world view of ourselves: a responsible democratic growing nuke power having to deal with a terrorist abomination next door, Trump sees it just the way US has been for 70+ years.

the khalistani element in this may be worth exploring.

haley is after all, a sardarini.

She may have come under the influence while seeking political support for her elections.

LokeshC · Post by **LokeshC** » 04 Apr 2017 19:45

Sure, and India can help broker peace between demoncrats and republicants.

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 04 Apr 2017 19:49

Computer programmers may no longer be eligible for H-1B visas

And so it begins...

komal · Post by **komal** » 04 Apr 2017 20:24

CRamS wrote:
Karthik S wrote:
https://swarajyamag.com/insta/trump-may ... ikki-haley
She is just repeating like the slave she is, her master's voice with no originality. Of course, in Chutiya Lutyen Delhi, she is some "great India American", but for the rest of us, simple to decode Trump & Co. They are living up to their colonial view of the world. Notice also recently, some Indian American Uncle tom at MIT put out some crap about India re-thinking its no first use nukes, and then followed reports in NYT and other propaganda machines with India TSP dead equal narrative. No objective analysis on how to curb a terrorist abomination like TSP peddling nukes. Its all about India TSP India TSP and the white man's burden. And now this hot air from Nikki. So basically in Trump's world, he is the white knight whom Jesus Christ ordained to make the 2 bad boys India and TSP behave. So while us SDREs have a world view of ourselves: a responsible democratic growing nuke power having to deal with a terrorist abomination next door, Trump sees it just the way US has been for 70+ years.

At one time, getting noticed in the USA/UK was a big deal for the Nehru-Gandhi clan. Those days are long gone.

And with Trump in the WH, the USA is fast on the way to becoming like UK/France in the 1950s.

Primus · Post by **Primus** » 04 Apr 2017 20:40

Dipanker wrote:Parting shot by Obama Admin.?

In US Government Report, Sharp Words For 'Rights Violations' In India

It has also become very much the norm now for the 'liberal' media to do an equal-equal with Trump and Modi and their respective administrations. It's a meme that has been spread far and wide and swallowed wholesale by the gullible and the ignorant. The ONLY similarity IMHO between the two is how the media has hounded and vilified them both, in Trump's case for the right reasons and perhaps fairly so whereas in Modi's case it is all lies and falsehoods that have simply been transplanted from the MSM in India to the so-called 'think tanks' of the West. Which is why rNDTV reports it so gleefully. After all, it is all too likely that they are the ones who provided the atrocity literature in the first place.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 04 Apr 2017 20:52

Hari Seldon wrote:Computer programmers may no longer be eligible for H-1B visas
And so it begins...

This gets back to what got a lot of people in uproar. Again, why is there an issue about "software engineer" requiring a college degree in software engineering/ computer science from a duly accredited institution? And if it is a "highly skilled worker" visa, what's wrong with requiring either experience or equivalent advanced degrees to prove that? It does sound like there is a lot of abuse out there if these things become an issue, hain?

Isn't it in the best interests of India and Indian software engineers to back this and insist that those applying for these visas do possess these qualifications? If grads of Appunni's University of Excel (offering MS and Mac) want to get H-1B, then the University must go through the same Accreditation process that, say, JNU does, whatever that is (can't be Faculty Quality for sure, esp the Sanskrit Dept..)

IMO, those most likely to get hit by a REAL insistence on quality higher education, are the H-1Bs from Oirope and Latin America who are hired for their hair/eye/skin color and accent/ sexual preferences/reproductive attributes. This could wipe out the entire Executive Suite of several American companies. Maybe the White House too, come to think of it..

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 04 Apr 2017 20:58

Marten wrote: ...

Question really is why it is being brought up on a completely unrelated thread.

Well, "grave concern about Hindus oppressing Muslims and Christians in India" is an evergreen element of Indo-US relations, isn't it?

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 04 Apr 2017 21:01

Hari Seldon wrote:Computer programmers may no longer be eligible for H-1B visas

And so it begins...

Fine print says programmers with 2-year degrees (whatever that means in the Indian system which doesn't have community colleges and associates degree) are not eligible.

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 04 Apr 2017 21:02

Primus wrote:
Singha wrote:One of the recurrent memes of euro exploration was no sooner had their rowboat landed on the beach of a unknown land they would claim the whole land and its resources for god , king and country
The Pope actually 'gave' the Eastern half of the world to the Portuguese and the Western half to the Spaniards. The arrogance of these people is legendary.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Tordesillas

Appropriately enough, the document making this grant was called a papal bull.

KJo · Post by **KJo** » 04 Apr 2017 21:04

It's one thing to make all these rules but another to implement them. That is where US has failed under Clinton, Bush and Obama. They all allowed the country to be raped and laws be turned into a mockery. Immigration can be a good thing but not just complete open borders to everyone. And the rules have to be followed.

In UP AY looked the other way when Muslims broke the law. YA is implementing them.

abhijitm · Post by **abhijitm** » 04 Apr 2017 22:22

Is Trump going nuts? What is the business of meddling between India and Pakistan?

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 04 Apr 2017 22:35

abhijitm wrote:Is Trump going nuts? What is the business of meddling between India and Pakistan?

decoy

vasu raya · Post by **vasu raya** » 04 Apr 2017 22:38

Its funny both US and Iran want to mediate between India and TSP...

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 04 Apr 2017 23:33

abhijitm wrote:Is Trump going nuts? What is the business of meddling between India and Pakistan?

more like, who is advising him to do this??

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 04 Apr 2017 23:46

India rejects US offer to mediate with Pakistan
http://www.deccanchronicle.com/nation/c ... istan.html

India made it clear that its position on bilateral redressal of all India-Pakistan issues has not changed.

New Delhi/New York: India on Tuesday swiftly rejected any US role in resolving Indo-Pak issues, hours after American Ambassador to the UN Nikki Haley suggested that the Trump administration may "find its place" in efforts to de-escalate Indo-Pak tension.

In a veiled snub, the external affairs ministry spokesperson in New Delhi said, the "government's position for bilateral redressal of all India-Pakistan issues in an environment free of terror and violence hasn't changed.

"We, of course, expect the international community and organisations to enforce international mechanisms and mandates concerning terrorism emanating from Pakistan, which continues to be the single biggest threat to peace and stability in our region and beyond."

The spokesperson's comments came in response to a query on Haley's remarks at a press conference in New York that "it's absolutely right that this administration is concerned about the relationship between India and Pakistan and very much wants to see how we de-escalate any sort of conflict going forward".

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 04 Apr 2017 23:47

The stupid U.S unnecessarily dragged in an Issue which India did not like and got slapped. I think they must be better careful before opening their mouth again.

GShankar · Post by **GShankar** » 04 Apr 2017 23:58

We should have offered to help broker peace in middle east, help with us investigations on Russian involvement in the elections, trade negotiations with China, etc.

An opportunity lost.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 04 Apr 2017 23:58

vasu raya wrote:Its funny both US and Iran want to mediate between India and TSP...

Its a measure of what a soft state India has been rendered, thx to colonial and post-independence de-facto colonial rule of India by brown Sahibs, Indian version of TSP RAPEs.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 05 Apr 2017 00:08

uddu wrote:India rejects US offer to mediate with Pakistan
http://www.deccanchronicle.com/nation/c ... istan.html

"We, of course, expect the international community and organisations to enforce international mechanisms and mandates concerning terrorism emanating from Pakistan, which continues to be the single biggest threat to peace and stability in our region and beyond.[/b]"

Brilliantly articulated by Indian govt. This is indeed the crux of the matter. But I can see TSP laughing their arses off at India US "strategic partnership", as also white bahadurs in US who will not only mock this statement but will be dismayed. Mock because how dare a bunch of idol-worshiping, cow revering SDRE Yindoos who keep Daleets and Muslims down talk about terrorism from TSP who is their munna in the so called global war (global fraud) on terror. Condescension because SDREs are supposed to be enamored by all the adulation US has been showing in India, imaginary nuke deal, "making India a global super power of the 21st century", presidential visits, yada yada and these SDREs haven't fallen for that, and instead want to get rid of the TSP albatross around their neck. Thy must be nostalgic for MMS and his queen Madam who wanted to jointly share the Kashmir valley with TSP.

Agnimitra · Post by **Agnimitra** » 05 Apr 2017 00:39

komal wrote:
CRamS wrote:
She is just repeating like the slave she is, her master's voice with no originality.

As a known servant of White supremacists, Nikki Haley has little standing left with India. She's been busted several times before:

GOP Gov. Nikki Haley’s White Supremacist Resigns Campaign

The curious case of Nikki Haley: What the Republican governor can tell us about American racial identity

Indian media needs to publicize, and be aggressive.

Same goes for those 'human rights' reports. If there's on undeniable upside of Trump's election for India, it is that the US' preachy liberal facade has been torn down by blatant racism. India should regularly take up the issue of Indians been shot dead in their own front yards, etc.

KJo · Post by **KJo** » 05 Apr 2017 01:02

TOI still slobbering over Nikki and Baba Piyush.

When Nikki Haley flaunted her Indian connection
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/worl ... 005980.cms

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 05 Apr 2017 01:11

People who are surprised at this Trump (well, actually Republican US Govt) offer to "mediate" between India and Pakistan and J&K need to remind themselves of a few things.

Here are the five lenses through which White, Christian, Conservative Republicans look at India Pakistan.

1) The Peer Competition Lens:

A non-white, non-Christian country can never be accepted as a peer competitor of America.

Bad enough that China has already developed to the level of a de facto peer competitor to the USA and little can be done about it openly.

India must never be allowed to rise to that level, but seems to be on its way there.

Pakistan will never rise to that level anyway, but can serve as a useful tool to prevent or delay India's rise.

Therefore India and Pakistan must be re-hyphenated and equal-equal must be maintained.

2) The Churchillian Lens:

India is like a great big herbivore which, in the natural order of things, must fulfill its role as prey for exploitation. It is Hindoo (meaning: cowardly, venal, greedy, immoral, disunited, disorganized, heathen, treacherous, ignorant, easy to divide-and-rule, easy to bribe and intimidate). Pakistan is like a martial, TFTA carnivore which though smaller, can keep the herbivore corralled and at bay... like an aggressive dog with a cow.

Therefore, in some sense India (large but cowardly) and Pakistan (small but aggressive) ARE equal-equal and this is a "natural order" balance of power which must be maintained.

3) The Soul-Harvesting Lens:

A non-white, non-Christian country can never be allowed to succeed on its own terms because poverty/deprivation and non-whiteness are the TWO BIGGEST inducements to bring large masses of people to Jesus. They will easily convert if they think it can (a) alleviate their economic hardship (b) make them more "qualified" as acceptable equals to whites.

India therefore cannot be allowed to claim what Indians think is their "rightful" place in the world... be it in terms of hegemony over South Asia, membership of the UNSC, membership in the G7 (recognition as an economic heavyweight), membership in the NSC as a NWS, or anything else. It must always be run down, whether in terms of its space program or its medical tourism industry. Caste-Cows-Curry must dominate the conversation about India no matter how much evidence accumulates to the contrary.

Meanwhile Pakistan will never be soul-harvested because it is an Islamic Republic. It will fight tooth and nail against proselytization, claiming that it has every right to do so as a matter of its religious identity. And at least they worship the One True God (albeit with a flawed understanding of His nature and a false prophet to guide them)... so they can perhaps be "saved" later, through some different strategy than nations which are mostly Buddhist, Atheist, or Hindu.

India, however, must be "saved" NOW before it succeeds any further on its own terms. It cannot expect to have the US' support vis-a-vis Pakistan as long as it blocks the USCIRF, Compassion International, and every other EJ organization that has bought and paid for representation in the United States Congress. To keep India on the backfoot as a pressure-tactic to Christianize, India-Pakistan equal-equal must be maintained.

4) The Quiet Fear of Dharmic Soft Power:

This is the one that Republicans (and most Conservative White Christian Americans) will never admit to, for sheer H&D reasons.

You get hints of it when you read The Blood Telegram, for example. One major reason for Nixon's visceral, personal hatred of India and Hindus was the way Dharmic soft power had penetrated and essentially permanently altered the spiritual discourse in the United States through the 1960s counterculture movement. This was seen as a near catastrophic cultural invasion that had served to uproot American society, particularly the younger generation, from Traditional American Values (Whiteness and Christianity being the cornerstones of those values).

White Christian Americans of a Conservative bent have a deep-seated fear and loathing of Hindu India which is of a different order of magnitude from their bigotry against ANY other foreign cultural identity... including Islam, and far exceeding (for example) Chinese or Latin Catholic culture. None of those have ever threatened American identity in as subtle but fundamental ways as Dharmic thought.

Therefore, the myth of India as a forever-poor, forever-helpless third world country mired in caste, cows, and curry must be maintained... NOT just for the global audience, not just to needle the H&D of Indians, but for White Christian Americans at home to believe and internalize.

If at all India scores any economic or geopolitical victories, America must be able to ascribe those victories to a secular, liberal govt based on Western Democratic values... i.e., a Congress government. A victory as strategically vital as J&K cannot be won by an India lunder an evil, heathen Hindoo-fundamentalist government.

It is therefore a priority to neutralize Dharmic civilization in India so that it can never again threaten to uproot White Christian American identity at home. It must be demonized and presented as a failed system, equivalent to Islam. Therefore, India-Pakistan equal-equal must be maintained.

5) The American Exceptionalism Lens:

This one is actually common between the Republicans and the Clinton-Wilsonian Democrats. It is essentially the belief that American Universalism is a good thing for the world, that American Intervention as global policeman is what keeps human civilzation intact (post Nuremberg), and that Only America can solve pesky problems like Israel-Palestine or India-Pakistan.

However, this kind of thinking has gone off on a protectionist, isolationist tangent under Trump... quite different from the interventionist stances that both neoliberals like Clinton and neoconservatives like G W Bush utilized it to justify. So it is probably not a primary reason, any more, for the Republicans to want to maintain India-Pakistan equal-equal.

We must realize that no matter WHAT strides India takes, what successes she racks up in terms of her economy or diplomatic profile or strategic security capabilities or even her soft power... perhaps ESPECIALLY her soft power... the lenses through which White Christian Republicans look at India will indefinitely forestall any degree of meaningful engagement (including abandonment of the India-Pakistan equal-equal paradigm) by a Republican administration in Washington DC.

That holds true, not just for a Trump administration but (perhaps even more so) for a Mike Pence administration that will replace it when Trump gets impeached.

Dipanker · Post by **Dipanker** » 05 Apr 2017 01:34

CRamS wrote:Thy must be nostalgic for MMS and his queen Madam who wanted to jointly share the Kashmir valley with TSP.

That, I am afraid, is not correct. Apparently you did not get the memo.

Of the proposed Musharraf's 4 point formula, New Delhi had rejected the joint control proposal citing erosion of its sovereignty:

Link

New Delhi, the official said, had rejected General Musharraf’s push for institutions for joint management of Kashmir by the two states, arguing it would erode Indian sovereignty.

Agnimitra · Post by **Agnimitra** » 05 Apr 2017 01:42

Rudradev wrote:People who are surprised at this Trump (well, actually Republican US Govt) offer to "mediate" between India and Pakistan and J&K need to remind themselves of a few things.

^^^ Changes in tone are based on the reality of different world actors closing in on their strategic goals.

China is using CPEC not for economic gain but as a way to close the Tibet issue by lopping off Kashmir once and for all. Given the steep terms, it is clear for all to see that Pak will be in debt, and will then allow China to have bases. From then on, the insurgency in J&K will multiply like never before.

Pak elites know this, too. Islamist idea of sovereignty is different from Westphalian nation-state - borders don't matter. So the Ghazwa-e-Hind narrative has been modified to include China in recent years. Tahir-ul-Qadri explained it at length on a trip to India of all places during UPA sarkar. He addressed a crowd of lakhs in Hyderabad, Telengana, and spoke at length about the Ghazwa that would envelope India and China. Given his links with Pak and Britain, it was a message to GoI.

The US can see this, and will just do what is convenient. It is not their fault that India has never decisively moved to close strategic goals, but instead leaves half-developed initiatives all around, from Kashmir, to Sri Lanka, to Nepal, to 'Look East'.

Even if India starts aggressively resettling Kashmir Valley today, it will take a couple of decades to effect real demographic change. We don't have that kind of time. India will have to open up the Tibet front. It is in anticipation of this that China is pushing the Tibet narrative into our territory, like Laddakh and Arunachal. They are aggressive and have clear strategic goals. India will need to pro-actively inflict pain on China, or suffocate it in some way. Pro-actively. We cannot sit this game out, nor will ridiculous symbolic needling like Dalai Lama visiting Arunachal be enough. It only shows who is on the backfoot.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 05 Apr 2017 01:49

They need to cut down on green card lottery.
People from villages in eligible countries get a lottery green card, and are on a plane the next.

Just the day before they were herding goats in some hill in Nepal, or drying fish by the roadside in Bangladesh, and are on a plane with a green card the next.
The day these worthies land in the US, they are net utilizers of government aid and taxpayer dollahs. Most will work for minimum wage and take away the real American jobs.

One had hoped, that Pres Trump in his state of the union address, when he had mentioned that immigration will be smart, and will not be a drain on US taxpayers, that this will be looked into.