Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 25 Mar 2017 19:08

habal wrote:We can open thread for white paper, with contributions from all, end product should be compact, not more than 1 page. And facilitation & procurement of flight test platforms for indigenous turbine should be priority # 1.

Just do it!

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 26 Mar 2017 02:55

Pratyush wrote:All this is well and good but from 2008 onward I have been reading about the imminent success of Kaveri. But it remains no where near completion.

An engine, perhaps, by itself, is the most complex machine. The problem has always been related to predicting an engines success. India is no exception. Perhaps the best path is to make work and then tell the world we have an engine.

So the question that I have is this. A clean slate design for a similar jet engine that can have applications for the AMCA is initiated today. How long will it take to realise and mature. Can it be on line and certified by 2025, or will it take longer than that. If it is taken as a national mission with no resource held back.

As you yourself have mentioned above, India has had little success with an engine.

They have accepted help with Safran from France to complete the Kaveri and mate it with the LCA.

On the other side India has requested to work with GE to update the GE F414 INS6 for the AMCA, work on which has started in Bangalore.

Both, IMHO, will produce an engine. But I very much doubt that they will provide the knowledge base for India to start with a clean sheet effort to produce a world class engine. For that, I think, India will need to seed about a 100 institutions and wait for at least 10, if not 20, years. And then hope they have a working engine. But, that, I think, would be worthwhile.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 11 Apr 2017 22:42

Folks I am interested in more details of the Manik turbofan: diameter, length, weight, thrust, sfc and technology like by pass ratio etc.

later would like to compare to the Tomahawk engine i.e the Williams one.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 11 Apr 2017 23:41

Don't worry about this class of engines. India will soon have world class engines in this class with both GTRE and the private sector having a stab at it. There are two private sector entities which already have small turbofans in testing: Bharat Forge with a 1.2 kN engine and Intech with a 0.2 kN engine. They both plan to go up to 3.5 kN soon.

Similarly HAL And Bharatforge are both designing turboshafts of 900-1200 kW regime.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 11 Apr 2017 23:54

There was a time when making smaller engines was more challenging that the big commercial or fighter engines. But now with 3D technology at hand the tables are turned. We should see proliferation of Jet technology in small thrust class world over in coming years.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 12 Apr 2017 02:55

Indranil, Thanks a lot. I am not concerned with mfg in India.
I am trying to discern Nirbhay design characteristics.

For example Manik engine thrust is 425/311 = 1.366 times more than the THawk Williams engine. Due to this its sfc is 0/78/0.68 is 1.14 times.
Very efficient compared to TH engine. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Williams_F107

I know its hot tropical environment, but why ~37% higher thrust?
The Manik is shorter 900 mm vs 1262mm

The Manik Diamter is 360mm vs 305 mm. Does this mean bigger air intake?
I don't know the bypass ratio for Manik, but Williams is 1.0

As for engine efficiency
Manik T/W = 425/110 = 3.86. And they are trying to cut this down based on news reports.
Williams is 4.61. But is you see the picture the Williams looks quite complex leading to more cost.
Manik seems clean and all contained. So its cost could be quite less.

It has FADEC and integrated alternator vs. the extra add-ons for Williams.

srai · Post by **srai** » 12 Apr 2017 06:43

^^^

Costs should be a big factor for these disposable engines. Lower costs the better. Single use application. ~1500km run is all that is expected. No need to invest in too much durability.

chola · Post by **chola** » 12 Apr 2017 13:53

NRao wrote:
Pratyush wrote:All this is well and good but from 2008 onward I have been reading about the imminent success of Kaveri. But it remains no where near completion.
An engine, perhaps, by itself, is the most complex machine. The problem has always been related to predicting an engines success. India is no exception. Perhaps the best path is to make work and then tell the world we have an engine.

So the question that I have is this. A clean slate design for a similar jet engine that can have applications for the AMCA is initiated today. How long will it take to realise and mature. Can it be on line and certified by 2025, or will it take longer than that. If it is taken as a national mission with no resource held back.
As you yourself have mentioned above, India has had little success with an engine.

They have accepted help with Safran from France to complete the Kaveri and mate it with the LCA.

On the other side India has requested to work with GE to update the GE F414 INS6 for the AMCA, work on which has started in Bangalore.

Both, IMHO, will produce an engine. But I very much doubt that they will provide the knowledge base for India to start with a clean sheet effort to produce a world class engine. For that, I think, India will need to seed about a 100 institutions and wait for at least 10, if not 20, years. And then hope they have a working engine. But, that, I think, would be worthwhile.

Coming from the business world, seeding a 100 institutions works for things not requiring heavy infrastructure.

It does not work for things that do. There is a reason why there are just a handful of microchip companies and only two major commercial aircraft firms. The cost of building up the infrastructure and the subsequent eco-system of suppliers is too expensive to allow for any but a handful.

Building an engine belongs to the latter. No matter what we need to fund the eco-system that had already built up around the Kaveri. Yes, make changes to improve/enhance it but sending funds in a 100 different directions will simply dilute your effort.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 12 Apr 2017 15:22

abhijitm wrote:We need to be bit cautious of judging people's appearance. Like what happened to Shobha De. Teeth could turn yellow due to heavy dosage of antibiotics in their childhood. Also irregular teeth can be hereditary.

I am sure this fellow Verma was not happy about Shri Gouda's skin color and facial features too.
Lets see, accent, teeth were already mentioned.

Do we need such people on BRF? Or are there further depths to fall.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 12 Apr 2017 19:35

chola wrote:
NRao wrote:
An engine, perhaps, by itself, is the most complex machine. The problem has always been related to predicting an engines success. India is no exception. Perhaps the best path is to make work and then tell the world we have an engine.

As you yourself have mentioned above, India has had little success with an engine.

They have accepted help with Safran from France to complete the Kaveri and mate it with the LCA.

On the other side India has requested to work with GE to update the GE F414 INS6 for the AMCA, work on which has started in Bangalore.

Both, IMHO, will produce an engine. But I very much doubt that they will provide the knowledge base for India to start with a clean sheet effort to produce a world class engine. For that, I think, India will need to seed about a 100 institutions and wait for at least 10, if not 20, years. And then hope they have a working engine. But, that, I think, would be worthwhile.
Coming from the business world, seeding a 100 institutions works for things not requiring heavy infrastructure.

It does not work for things that do. There is a reason why there are just a handful of microchip companies and only two major commercial aircraft firms. The cost of building up the infrastructure and the subsequent eco-system of suppliers is too expensive to allow for any but a handful.

Building an engine belongs to the latter. No matter what we need to fund the eco-system that had already built up around the Kaveri. Yes, make changes to improve/enhance it but sending funds in a 100 different directions will simply dilute your effort.

Let it slide. You are not on the same page. Not worth discussing things in this manner. (Not saying you are wrong.)

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 12 Apr 2017 21:13

ramana wrote:Indranil, Thanks a lot. I am not concerned with mfg in India.
I am trying to discern Nirbhay design characteristics.

For example Manik engine thrust is 425/311 = 1.366 times more than the THawk Williams engine. Due to this its sfc is 0/78/0.68 is 1.14 times.
Very efficient compared to TH engine. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Williams_F107

I know its hot tropical environment, but why ~37% higher thrust?
The Manik is shorter 900 mm vs 1262mm

The Manik Diamter is 360mm vs 305 mm. Does this mean bigger air intake?
I don't know the bypass ratio for Manik, but Williams is 1.0

As for engine efficiency
Manik T/W = 425/110 = 3.86. And they are trying to cut this down based on news reports.
Williams is 4.61. But is you see the picture the Williams looks quite complex leading to more cost.
Manik seems clean and all contained. So its cost could be quite less.

It has FADEC and integrated alternator vs. the extra add-ons for Williams.

Perhaps 5000km range missile intended to reach Chinese Eastern Coast. India seems to be developing 4.25kn, 3.75kn, 2.5kn, 1kn engines. Hmmmm.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 12 Apr 2017 21:51

ramana wrote: As for engine efficiency
Manik T/W = 425/110 = 3.86. And they are trying to cut this down based on news reports.

We don't know what those 110 kgs include. I remember an aero india seminar talk in 2015 (or was is it 2013?) when a GTRE gent had talked about the engine. The talk also featured a gent from Saturn, whose Russian, this gent translated to English as well. Manik's specifications are truly world class. Whether GTRE can deliver them or not remains to be seen. The signs are good, but the progress is slow.

By the way, all the folks in Intech and Bharat-Forge's aero RnD positions in Bangalore are ex-HAL and ex-GTRE. Here the progress is stupendously fast. Another engine in this category (2.75 kN) is being developed by NAL/RCI. So, there will be no dearth of desi-engines in this regime.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 13 Apr 2017 01:11

^^ From the slide you posted above includes the "integrated Alternator".

What is the power take off of 2KW? Power Take off is a PTO a motor axle to drive some rotary system. Is this for a hydraulic pump for the Nirbhay controls?

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 13 Apr 2017 02:00

NRao wrote:
chola wrote:
Coming from the business world, seeding a 100 institutions works for things not requiring heavy infrastructure.

It does not work for things that do. There is a reason why there are just a handful of microchip companies and only two major commercial aircraft firms. The cost of building up the infrastructure and the subsequent eco-system of suppliers is too expensive to allow for any but a handful.

Building an engine belongs to the latter. No matter what we need to fund the eco-system that had already built up around the Kaveri. Yes, make changes to improve/enhance it but sending funds in a 100 different directions will simply dilute your effort.
Let it slide. You are not on the same page. Not worth discussing things in this manner. (Not saying you are wrong.)

Let it slide?

Thats quite condescending isn't it?

chola · Post by **chola** » 13 Apr 2017 02:58

^^^ NRao-ji did add that he is not saying I am wrong. Otherwise, it would have wounded my feelings badly.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 13 Apr 2017 09:49

ramana wrote:^^ From the slide you posted above includes the "integrated Alternator".

What is the power take off of 2KW? Power Take off is a PTO a motor axle to drive some rotary system. Is this for a hydraulic pump for the Nirbhay controls?

Must be hydraulics + avionics.

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 14 Apr 2017 11:58

Rolls-Royce, DRDO to tie up

Collaboration is under way between engine maker Rolls Royce and India’s Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) on the engine technology

.

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 14 Apr 2017 14:03

UK Should be asked if they want to help in AMCA & Kaveri version for AMCA. Though it's possible poodle might backstab us.

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 14 Apr 2017 14:31

Saurav Jha‏
@SJha1618

Meanwhile, MIDHANI has successfully developed a Titanium alloy Yi26 forging for Rolls-Royce Turbomeca Adour engines in use with the IAF.

1:56 PM - 13 Apr 2017

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 14 Apr 2017 16:07

Neela wrote:Rolls-Royce, DRDO to tie up

Collaboration is under way between engine maker Rolls Royce and India’s Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) on the engine technology
.

What the hell does this mean from this news..?

“The next step is to have a technology demonstrator in 12 months,” said Stephen Phipson, Head of Defence and Security Organisation which he said would be the “highest thrust gas turbine engine.”

Will · Post by **Will** » 14 Apr 2017 17:41

Probably the uprating of the EJ200 for the AMCA. Can't be the engine for the Jags as it mentions "highest thrust".

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 14 Apr 2017 19:11

JayS wrote: What the hell does this mean from this news..?

“The next step is to have a technology demonstrator in 12 months,” said Stephen Phipson, Head of Defence and Security Organisation which he said would be the “highest thrust gas turbine engine.”

Shoddy piece from The Hindu where you cannot understand what is being said. The paragraphs before and after have no meaning and follow no flow of thought.

But it appears there is a plan to co-develop a high thrust engine. Saurav Jha seems to indicate the same in his twitter account.

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 14 Apr 2017 19:12

An article by Saurav Jha on the Safran consultancy is due this week.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 14 Apr 2017 19:34

When it comes to the "Kaveri", as compared to others, Safran is the one that can assist the most. Safran has been in contact, with the project, since 2008.

I suspect the RR effort is more a PMO type of an effort and unrelated to any specific current engine. They will probably have to start with some engine, but I doubt they have any serious goal in mind (WRT a plane), thus the 12 month self imposed restriction.

Engines in their previous lives are material science projects. Cannot escape that. And absolutely no one will reveal the secret of material AND how the industrial product is manufactured. So, even Safran, will deliver a Kaveri that will be more than good enough for the LCA, but will not reveal secrets of the materials used, nor how they are made. But India will have a 100 kN Kaveri.

Then for the next gen engine back to Safran, GE, RR, other alpha soups.

The goal, as it should be, is an engine. The means is material sciences.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 14 Apr 2017 19:52

I think the journo simply mixed up things. Probably its about RR's own commercial engine (Highest thrust makes sense in this context - higher thrust than any other engine so far). One cannot even complete preliminary design in 12 months let along making a prototype.

tushar_m · Post by **tushar_m** » 14 Apr 2017 20:23

One good thing is that we are hedging our bets on aero engines for both LCA & AMCA

1) If Kaveri + Scnema deliver then very well (timeline 18 months )
2) If Trump administration go for F414 "i" (not likely to happen no timeline)
3) If UK can deliver up-rated EJ200 in 12 months (250 AMCA = 1000+ engines / maybe LCA then 1500-2000 engines)
4) If HAL/Private Industries do some magic (no timeline but it will happen for sure)

Also there might be a situation that UK might offer QE Aircraft Carrier to us.(completed or blueprints ?)
UK economy will be hit by Brexit & India spends more in UK then the whole Europe (source :BBC documentry Youtube)

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 14 Apr 2017 20:31

tushar_m wrote:One good thing is that we are hedging our bets on aero engines for both LCA & AMCA

Depends on whom you talk to and believe.

1) If Kaveri + Scnema deliver then very well (timeline 18 months )

Ok, 18 months is acceptable, to deliver an engine, hopefully a certified one. But, it should take another year to mount and test it on a plane. Hopefully a twin engine platform. Then another year on a LCA platform? And if on an AMCA, another couple of years.

2) If Trump administration go for F414 "i" (not likely to happen no timeline)

GE Bangalore has started work, on improving the F414 INS6. The other shoe - F-16 MII- is in limbo.

3) If UK can deliver up-rated EJ200 in 12 months (250 AMCA = 1000+ engines / maybe LCA then 1500-2000 engines)

A URL please.

Also there might be a situation that UK might offer QE Aircraft Carrier to us.(completed or blueprints ?)
UK economy will be hit by Brexit & India spends more in UK then the whole Europe (source :BBC documentry Youtube)

For what? Has Vishal been cancelled?

tushar_m · Post by **tushar_m** » 14 Apr 2017 20:45

requested URL

UK’s Rolls Royce, India’s DRDO working together on engine for fighter jets

Timeline given in idrw article

Vishal design is done ????? Didn't know that

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 14 Apr 2017 21:59

Ah. Thx for the URL.

But, as someone already posted, there is no specific information about anything. I hope you are right and it is about uprating the EJ2000.

But that means a couple of things. One that GE is unwilling to part with certain technologies, so India is hedging. Or it could mean there are multiple camps in India who are pushing three different foreign partners. hopefully all this in sync with each other.

Neshant · Post by **Neshant** » 15 Apr 2017 02:07

China is investing a ton of money into commercial engine development.

Its up & coming locally designed C-919 regional airplane developed to meet FAA certification requirements is designed to compete against Boeing's top seller single asile 737 and the Airbus equivalent. Its a competitive market space. Second tier producers like Bombardier and Embrarer also compete in this market segment against giants Boeing & Airbus. But China has the luxury of forcing it's local carriers to buy any plane the state produces.

Eventually China will substitute the GE engines on the plane for its own locally developed engines.

China also has in planning the C-929 which is a twin asile aircraft designed to compete against the larger Boeing 777 class international carrier.

Babuz in India are way behind struggling to build a 14 seat passenger aircraft for years.

.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 15 Apr 2017 04:13

If we keep shuttling on who will be the partner, and by the side just sit on the existing Kaveri as just a TD, then we are doomed! None will provide joint works if you have nothing to participate on. GTRE better get reorganized (saying this for the last 5 odd years by now), and get this done without any foreign hands. Whatever it takes, it should be done at home with no external influence.

tushar_m · Post by **tushar_m** » 15 Apr 2017 07:58

NRao wrote:Ah. Thx for the URL.

But that means a couple of things. One that GE is unwilling to part with certain technologies, so India is hedging. Or it could mean there are multiple camps in India who are pushing three different foreign partners. hopefully all this in sync with each other.

Yep, that's what i wanted to say .

If you have only one contract that may or may not materialize , there will always be a problem. We can't depend on one engine manufacturer which is governed by a president that takes U turn every few hours (Mr. T).

UK might not be reliable partner either but with 3/4 camps that can deliver engine for our needs & the orders being in few thousands(over the lifetime) every one is in pressure to deliver what they promised.
One more thing is that EJ200 was the choice of IAF/ADA but we go for GE because of political pressure & love for our new friends @US.
IAF wants EJ200 engines for Tejas, but..

My having multiple engine options we have eliminated any possibility of monopoly that may exist in the future.

Also with news of $250 billion upgrade plan my PM Modi we might be the only country to spend so much on military hardware.

8,000 missiles from Israel part of Modi's $250-bn plan to take on China, Pakistan

pandyan · Post by **pandyan** » 15 Apr 2017 09:31

tushar_m wrote:One more thing is that EJ200 was the choice of IAF/ADA but we go for GE because of political pressure & love for our new friends @US. [url=http://www.dnaindia.com/money/report-ia ... ut-1320196]IAF wants EJ200 engines for Tejas, but..[/url

that would have been one sure fire way to kill tejas. after hearing dr. saraswat's speech on single engine usage qualification for GE414 and speculation here that it might be the cause for navy backpedaling on mk2, who knows what kind of issues would we have faced with EJ (don't like name either) 200

srai · Post by **srai** » 15 Apr 2017 09:56

SaiK wrote:If we keep shuttling on who will be the partner, and by the side just sit on the existing Kaveri as just a TD, then we are doomed! None will provide joint works if you have nothing to participate on. GTRE better get reorganized (saying this for the last 5 odd years by now), and get this done without any foreign hands. Whatever it takes, it should be done at home with no external influence.

GTRE is not sitting idly

They continue to work towards qualifying the Kaveri. As far as experienced foreign partner goes, they are mostly deemed necessary for overcoming the "last mile" hurdle quickly and with confidence.

Besides, most of the new R&D of indigenous aero engines (public/private) involve GTRE and their former engineers/scientists.

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 15 Apr 2017 11:00

I think the only possible honest foreign collaborator would be MTU who has the technology base but no directly competing product. Everyone else will stab us in the back.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 15 Apr 2017 20:42

Gyan wrote:I think the only possible honest foreign collaborator would be MTU who has the technology base but no directly competing product. Everyone else will stab us in the back.

MTU is partner in EuroJet consortium. So tey do have EJ200 in direct conflict, in a way. But more importantly. MTU doesn't have key Hot Turbine tech and combustors. HP/LP Compressors, LPT, yes, they can help there. And they would love to perhaps have a JV to dig into HPT tech, but we will have to bankroll the RnD and they wont be able to help us as guide but more like will be co-travellers.

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 17 Apr 2017 21:37

Very good info JayS. But better to have competent co traveller rather than a Shylock on your back. Snecma, RR, PW, GE will actively sabotage us. EJ 200 is basically RR. Kaveri present problems is with LPC, LPT components. Be as it may we had a good co traveller in MBB with ALH, France with liquid engines, Ukraine with Semi Cryogenic, UK with Gnat, Russia with Aircraft Carrier, Su-30MKI, Brahmos or Israel With Barak-8. The real issue is whether DRDO wants to do its job or just wants to put its label on a ready made Engine. RR also has knowledge from F-136 but will they share? Never. We are still indigenising 50 year old Adour engine.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 17 Apr 2017 22:11

Gyan wrote:Very good info JayS. But better to have competent co traveller rather than a Shylock on your back. Snecma, RR, PW, GE will actively sabotage us. EJ 200 is basically RR. Kaveri present problems is with LPC, LPT components. Be as it may we had a good co traveller in MBB with ALH, France with liquid engines, Ukraine with Semi Cryogenic, UK with Gnat, Russia with Aircraft Carrier, Su-30MKI, Brahmos or Israel With Barak-8. The real issue is whether DRDO wants to do its job or just wants to put its label on a ready made Engine. RR also has knowledge from F-136 but will they share? Never. We are still indigenising 50 year old Adour engine.

Our problem is materials and manufacturing technology, and sheer lack of testing facilities. MTU can help us to some extent there, yes. But at what cost..? Why the **** we need goras to walk us through all the time..? Why can't we put faith in our own men and give then enough resources to work with..? We would spend $1B on the French while working with Kaveri. But why we haven't already spent that much money on our own efforts..?? $1B isn't a big amount after all. Give our scientists the exact same tools and resources that goras have and our folks are just as capable of creating the same magic. But no, we want goras to show us the light. We won't try it out ourselves properly first.

I don't think RR knows the secret ingredient of F136. You know what I mean.? They have just made the lift fan system. And MBB screwed up big time on ALH. HAL had hard time clearing out the mess they created.

DRDO hasn't got even 1% of resources what foreign governments have poured in to develop jet technology. Its really unfair to them if someone expected them to come up with world class technology in that much. Even if they can have an engine with only their tag on it but can make us relatively self-sufficient, consider it an achievement.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 17 Apr 2017 22:49

Why the **** we need goras to walk us through all the time..? Why can't we put faith in our own men and give then enough resources to work with..?

Sure there are many reasons, but here are a few that I have arrived at.

Foreign consultancy it is *thought* will infuse quick solutions AND provide slightly longer term direction. That should have worked a few decades ago. Now it is nowhere close. New solutions are fast and furious. So, even a solution provided by say Safran will last only long enough to keep a client happy for a few years at the most.

On funding local efforts, three things.

First when they were funded the research teams seemed (IMHO) overconfident, tending to promise a LOT in very little time, for a very small price.

Second, culture. No or very low risk. Materials is an area where failure is unusually high, perhaps as much as 80-90%. As a society, Indians are not built for that kind of drubbing.

Third, it is not that India has not produced. They have. BUT, either under very dire circumstances (Kargil syndrome) or in inconsequential spurts.

BTW, I do not think the Bharat Forge, etc efforts will tantamount to very much. It could be better than others in India, but is that the goal? Given a choice I would shoot for the stars. Something highly positive has to come out of the GE collaboration.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 17 Apr 2017 23:28

Bharat forge has ex GTRE folks working for them.
They are giving the GTRE guys everything, including professionally managed program, minus the sarkari delays, and expecting time bound results. Bharat Forge's support workshops are the best in the world, and they can create parts inhouse that GTRE can't. Baba Kalyani was talking about 3D printing several small and very complex parts

Bharat Forge probably knows the EXACT specs of the jet engines that the DRDO, armed forces seek for their various programs, and is angling to be the supplier for this market.
These small engines can be relatively easily built and chances of success are much higher for a UAV or a cruise missile or even a helo engine than for a cutting edge fighter jet engine.

He can build on the initial successes and body shop in the west to get future high end programs to succeed.

But frankly to see an Indian private company building jet engines - I am going !!!