Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 21 Apr 2017 23:14

IR not doing well financially

http://www.news18.com/news/india/indian ... 80047.html

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 21 Apr 2017 23:51

article is by former rail-min from TMC.

Sicanta · Post by **Sicanta** » 22 Apr 2017 12:49

Karthik S wrote:Considering the life span of coaches, and the size of economy ours will be, we really need to do away with non-ac coaches across the board. It's a real punishment to travel in these heat ovens when temperatures in most part of India is above 40 for months.

ट्रेनों से हटेंगे AC-2 कोच, बेसिक किराए में 15% तक बढ़ोतरी

http://www.livehindustan.com/news/busin ... 94233.html

AC2 to be replaced with ac3 slowly (will be done where these coaches usually run empty), basic fare may see 15% increase, flexi fare in shatabdi, rajdhani may be taken back

arshyam · Post by **arshyam** » 22 Apr 2017 13:03

^^ That's just stupid. IR will lose more pax to the airlines as 2AC fares are cheaper than airline fares and offer comfortable travel. And 2AC coaches are also well patronized, why remove them? People who can afford 2AC fares will not shift to the more crowded 3AC coaches - they'll simply pay a little extra and fly. I'd rather they get rid of 1AC coaches - they don't make up the cost given most 1AC pax are freeloading politicians and officials.

I think that news is just DDM in action.

Sicanta · Post by **Sicanta** » 22 Apr 2017 13:20

No, I remember an IR report being quoted a lot which said ki AC 2 is loss making coach, some Rs 500 crore loss last year or so. AC 3 is the only profit making one and there is always a long waiting list running into 100's. These coaches won't run empty if more are added.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 22 Apr 2017 15:35

the 1AC will be even more loss making....due to freebie tickets....non AC 2nd class and general coaches are all loss making due to low fares. entire passenger side of IR is lossing making.

its better that 2AC fares be raised if required to break even as imo its a workable and core offering for middle and upper middle class for long distance travel - a 500 mil strong market. they will also spend more on catered food than non AC/general who will buy cheaper outside or pack their own grub. maybe a chargeble wifi with basic and premium levels, vending machines for water/cold drinks can be carried on board , rentable tablets loaded with legal movies etc can be tried out.

new gen materials, interiors on par with latest trends can improve the interior space and utility.

once the speeds improve , 2 AC can become viable vs planes again. right now even if train is perfect the slow speed make time pressed travellers (less PTO) go by air.

vasu raya · Post by **vasu raya** » 22 Apr 2017 20:59

Let me take a roundabout route here, for sat ground transportation they have devised a robust Faraday's cage to protect the electronics as noted here,

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7248&start=1000&sid ... 1#p2146283

and for the same reason am thinking they might have done similar design to the bogies transporting rail mobile Agni missiles, maybe they are being phased out now, yet if there is such a Faraday cage design existing for rail bogies, can they not adopt it for flat bed cars to enable Ro-Ro transportation without worrying about having less clearance from overhead Electric lines? all to save Delhi from smog

Rishirishi · Post by **Rishirishi** » 23 Apr 2017 03:40

arshyam wrote:^^ That's just stupid. IR will lose more pax to the airlines as 2AC fares are cheaper than airline fares and offer comfortable travel. And 2AC coaches are also well patronized, why remove them? People who can afford 2AC fares will not shift to the more crowded 3AC coaches - they'll simply pay a little extra and fly. I'd rather they get rid of 1AC coaches - they don't make up the cost given most 1AC pax are freeloading politicians and officials.

I think that news is just DDM in action.

Putting an AC in the train adds very little cost. All 3tier should be converted to AC 3 tier.

All trains should be converted to AC.

Kashi · Post by **Kashi** » 23 Apr 2017 09:47

Rishirishi wrote:Putting an AC in the train adds very little cost.

What about operating expenses?

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 23 Apr 2017 10:48

If 2 AC is being removed, then it leaves very little incentive for me to use a train. Almost everyone in my family circle uses 2AC by preference and 3AC only if 2ac is not available. Otherwise, rather take a flight.

Sicanta · Post by **Sicanta** » 23 Apr 2017 10:52

jamwal wrote:If 2 AC is being removed, then it leaves very little incentive for me to use a train. Almost everyone in my family circle uses 2AC by preference and 3AC only if 2ac is not available. Otherwise, rather take a flight.

They are not going to remove these coaches from rajdhani, premier trains or any route where there is enough demand. Like ahmedabad mumbai.

.....................................................................................................................................................

Centre plans Rs 37,500 cr European-style superfast suburban train network

http://www.business-standard.com/articl ... 637_1.html

RRTS has three prioritised corridors -- Delhi-Ghaziabad-Meerut (90 km), Delhi-Gurugram-Rewari-Alwar (180 km) and Delhi-Sonepat-Panipat (111 km).

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 23 Apr 2017 10:57

This should be done in other big cities too, Mumbai, Bang, Chennai in parallel.

arshyam · Post by **arshyam** » 23 Apr 2017 13:52

Sicanta wrote:No, I remember an IR report being quoted a lot which said ki AC 2 is loss making coach, some Rs 500 crore loss last year or so. AC 3 is the only profit making one and there is always a long waiting list running into 100's. These coaches won't run empty if more are added.

Interesting, can you share a link?

sanjayc · Post by **sanjayc** » 23 Apr 2017 14:04

It is in Hindi

http://www.amarujala.com/india-news/ind ... er-coaches

Sicanta · Post by **Sicanta** » 23 Apr 2017 14:18

arshyam wrote:
Sicanta wrote:No, I remember an IR report being quoted a lot which said ki AC 2 is loss making coach, some Rs 500 crore loss last year or so. AC 3 is the only profit making one and there is always a long waiting list running into 100's. These coaches won't run empty if more are added.
Interesting, can you share a link?

I think this is the one. And it from Cag, not IR as i mentioned before.

http://www.cag.gov.in/content/report-37 ... government

Page number 12 in the report. AC 1 - 70 crore loss, 2 - 495 crore loss, 3 - 880 crore profit. Figures for other coaches also given.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 23 Apr 2017 14:35

RO Ro is already there for konkan railway but surprisingly not there for nationwide. I wonder where the drivers sleep and eat though?

should be plenty cheaper to have core ro ro routes and couple 100km at drive both ends . put 3AC coaches for drivers and helpers and supply food at main stations. but rules regarding commerce, state octroi etc might have held back...with GST and digitization might be easier. earlier each state got its cut on the route.

arshyam · Post by **arshyam** » 23 Apr 2017 14:51

Sicanta-ji, thanks. Will take a look.

Kashi · Post by **Kashi** » 23 Apr 2017 14:58

Karthik S wrote:This should be done in other big cities too, Mumbai, Bang, Chennai in parallel.

Yes. Mumbai-Pune, Bangalore-Mysore come to mind..

Regarding the AC2 coaches, why not increase the fares to wipe out under recovery?

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 23 Apr 2017 16:03

Sicanta wrote:AC 3 is the only profit making one and there is always a long waiting list running into 100's. These coaches won't run empty if more are added.

I feel that 3A coaches has the bare minimum standards of a railway coach which I have seen in many other places. To quote Sashi Tharoor, the other classes (SL, 2S) etc. are very much cattle class. Today there are a large number of people who are willing to switch over to 3rd AC, provided they get accomodation there. I feel that IR should slowly bring in more 3A coaches, and encourage more people to use it. This would be a success especially in long distance trains (the SL coaches of such trains, are generally mis-used by the Season Ticket/pass holders etc. who just barge in and occupy the seats). IR already has an option for automatic upgrade, so with such a scheme even the 2A coaches would see good occupancy. 1st AC coaches, I feel are just a historical relic. And any way, in many trains 1st AC is now a "composite coach". One part 1st AC, and the next half is 2AC.

Rishirishi wrote:Putting an AC in the train adds very little cost. All 3tier should be converted to AC 3 tier.

Building costs may be less, but operating costs are huge. On an average IR only gets around 51-55% of the operating cost out of the ticket money. The rest of the expenses are cross subsidised by freight charges.

Singha wrote:RO Ro is already there for konkan railway but surprisingly not there for nationwide. I wonder where the drivers sleep and eat though?

Such trains would have normal Sleeper coach attached to it. The truck driver & crew are supposed to camp there. But I have also heard that many of them prefer to remain inside the trucks. Many of these trucks also have some a small kitchen setup stocked inside.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 23 Apr 2017 16:13

what is the diff between 3AC and garib rath? is garib road just a train where all the coaches are 3AC?

I agree the non-AC sleeper class is unbearable in summer heat, overcrowded and just a suffering to all. people do not travel on trains every week. the poor working in other parts of the country go back home once a year only...or once in 9 months...they dont work they dont earn, unlike us pto holders. so for that 1 trip dont think they will mind paying a bit more if 3AC seats are increased.

we transitioned from wooden seats to padded seats at one time . now its time to move enmasse to AC.

Ankar · Post by **Ankar** » 23 Apr 2017 16:58

Singha wrote:what is the diff between 3AC and garib rath? is garib road just a train where all the coaches are 3AC?

An extra berth on the side in garib rath.
Also you don't get complementary bedroll in garib rath, although you can get a rewashed bedroll kit for Rs. 25.

Ticket price of 3AC is ~50% more than garib rath

SBajwa · Post by **SBajwa** » 24 Apr 2017 19:37

What is the difference between 3AC and 2AC?

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 24 Apr 2017 19:41

SBajwa wrote:What is the difference between 3AC and 2AC?

3 berths and 2 berths sir.

rahulm · Post by **rahulm** » 24 Apr 2017 20:08

3Ac sleeps 72, 2Ac sleeps 48. You do the maths on toilet ratio, chit chat noise ect.

Plus 2AC have reading lights for every berth. It's a different matter whether you get one that works or not is a lottery.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 24 Apr 2017 21:33

For 72 souls on long haul trains i wud suggest 6 or 8 toilets and reduce berths to 64 or 56

Time to think beyond the bun

arshyam · Post by **arshyam** » 24 Apr 2017 22:03

jamwal wrote:If 2 AC is being removed, then it leaves very little incentive for me to use a train. Almost everyone in my family circle uses 2AC by preference and 3AC only if 2ac is not available. Otherwise, rather take a flight.

Same here. Elders in my circle prefer the lesser number of berths and slightly extra room, not to mention the fear of having to gymnastically fitting into middle or side upper berths. Of course, assuming affordability is not an issue.

2AC making losses can be addressed by dynamic pricing and better and dynamic provisioning of coaches where there is demand. This is true for all classes in general. Occupancy at least in the south is not an issue, though 3AC does fill up first.

Having said that, I am not sure I understand how 2AC makes that much more losses compared to 3AC, unless they are so over-provisioned in most sectors and running mostly empty most of the time. From the CAG report Sicanta-ji linked:
2AC: (-)₹495 crores
3AC: (+)₹881.52 crores

That's a large variation not explained by my admittedly simple calculations, and the report does not explain how these numbers were arrived at.

For example, considering the Kacheguda express from Bengaluru, the fares are as follows:
2AC: ₹1380*48 = ₹66,240
3AC: ₹850*72 = ₹70,200

Increasing the 2AC fare by ₹80 will bring it on par with the 3AC coach. Given the lesser number of pax, I expect the operational costs of the 2AC coach to be actually lower: weight, tractive effort, power for the AC, bedroll consumption, etc. So why this large discrepancy between 2AC and 3AC? Is the cross-subsidizing of SL class skewing this number somehow?

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 24 Apr 2017 22:12

We can have semi-HSR that can run at 200 km/hr. We can do away with sleeper berths altogether. There are few 15 16 hrs non stop flights where pax are in sitting position. You can easily cover Delhi-Chennai distance in 15 hours in a semi-HSR.

rahulm · Post by **rahulm** » 24 Apr 2017 22:34

It's next to impossible to get 2AC on any train on WR,SR and any Raj. Heck, I've managed 1AC only twice.

3E is worse. lalu jammed an extra middle side berth. I believe, 3E is now being removed. It was very unpopular.

Make Nagpur a mega TFTA transit hub. Run semi HSR spokes to all corners of India. Very doable. Run a few point to point like JAT - ERS, PNBE LTT, CSTM- NDLS etc if we must. With NGP as a hub even existing rattling and swaying primitive tech ICF rolling stock at 160 kmph will be effective.

In EU changing trains enroute is common. Nobody bats an eyelid. It's another matter that there are TFTA lifts and escalators to haul ones backside and luggage around. In India, we have to dodge the pack of dogs, leap over the cow, squirm at the sight of the dead mouse, a kids pee puddle and people doing their laundry. Not a very pleasant experience to inter change.

At NGP Dovetail flight and train times together as much as possible.

Sicanta · Post by **Sicanta** » 25 Apr 2017 03:14

rahulm wrote:3Ac sleeps 72, 2Ac sleeps 48. You do the maths on toilet ratio, chit chat noise ect.

Plus 2AC have reading lights for every berth. It's a different matter whether you get one that works or not is a lottery.

2AC has 54.

Kashi · Post by **Kashi** » 25 Apr 2017 05:48

I suppose one reason for 2AC and 1AC being in red is the complimentary travel- MPs/MLAs/Freedom fighter and a host of other complimentary pass holders. Nearly all of them converge in 1AC or 2AC.

arshyam · Post by **arshyam** » 25 Apr 2017 06:50

@Sicanta ji, 2AC has 48 berths in ICF coaches. Perhaps you meant the newer LHB coaches, which are longer and have an extra bay?

asgkhan · Post by **asgkhan** » 25 Apr 2017 14:12

Sleeper class is a torture. Only recently have I started using trains. Did the mistake of booking sleeper class. The noise was terrificly loud and the swaying side to side excessive.

Now, first preference is 2nd AC and last preference is 3 AC. Plus I have become an agile middle aged chimp able to climb up to upper berths without doing a 5 year plan or spraining a joint in my back.

Sicanta · Post by **Sicanta** » 25 Apr 2017 14:20

arshyam wrote:@Sicanta ji, 2AC has 48 berths in ICF coaches. Perhaps you meant the newer LHB coaches, which are longer and have an extra bay?

Yes. All Rajdhanis, ac exp, and many other premium trains have already been allotted these rakes. Indeed in last year or so, the allotment has picked up pace. All credit to Prabhu ji.

arshyam · Post by **arshyam** » 25 Apr 2017 14:36

Well, not really

. The LHB-ization plan was finalized during UPA times itself, and IR has simply been following it. I actually expected SP to speed up the transition, but perhaps logistical issues prevented him from doing so (ICF was producing the older rakes till this year). SP has done very well so far, but let's not invent reasons to credit him. There are enough genuine improvements for that.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 25 Apr 2017 14:42

n gangetic valley, even 1AC is not a protection against intrusion. MP/MLA will travel from morning till night as sitting passengers along with PSO and chamchas after browbeating the TTE. they will head straight for the 1AC coaches if found.

Sicanta · Post by **Sicanta** » 25 Apr 2017 14:45

arshyam wrote:Well, not really . The LHB-ization plan was finalized during UPA times itself, and IR has simply been following it. I actually expected SP to speed up the transition, but perhaps logistical issues prevented him from doing so (ICF was producing the older rakes till this year). SP has done very well so far, but let's not invent reasons to credit him. There are enough genuine improvements for that.

I meant speeding up lhb production. Till upa 2 end, it was generally only rajdhani/shatabdi category which had lhb. Exceptions notwithstanding.

In rajdhani category, adi, bilaspur and jammu ones got lhb under Prabhu.

Sridhar K · Post by **Sridhar K** » 28 Apr 2017 22:41

From my experience of recent travels in TN, there is visible improvements. The stations are much cleaner after SP took over, electrification all the way on the Egmore -madurai-TVM, fast phased doubling of the line, bio toilets, toilets with health faucet, jaguar fittings, LHB rakes on rockfort, pandyan, Chozan express. One minor scam is the timeliness of the trains. The trains are usually running half an hour late but the spot ur train app always shows that the end destination having been on time.

arshyam · Post by **arshyam** » 28 Apr 2017 22:47

Sicanta wrote:I meant speeding up lhb production. Till upa 2 end, it was generally only rajdhani/shatabdi category which had lhb. Exceptions notwithstanding.

Well, that was bound to happen, given that all the production units will have switched over at some point. It's not as though UPA decided to stop LHB with Raj/Shat category. Anyway, my last on this.

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 28 Apr 2017 23:17

Pardon me for a basic question. We always hear of british era bridges. How many of these have been, are, will be replaced by 2019? I don't remember hearing about them specifically anytime.

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 29 Apr 2017 02:33

Prasad wrote:Pardon me for a basic question. We always hear of british era bridges. How many of these have been, are, will be replaced by 2019? I don't remember hearing about them specifically anytime.

Why does it matter?

Why not ask what percentage of railway bridges which are in use currently were built after independence? I'll hazard an estimate: 99.999%