Artillery: News & Discussion

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Kakkaji
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Kakkaji »

More details:

L&T, South Korea’s HTW sign deal to supply 155mm/52 Cal Tracked SP gun to Army
Indian multinational conglomerate Larsen &Toubro (L&T) and South Korean firm Hanwha Techwin (HTW) on Friday signed a contract for execution of the 155mm/ 52 Cal Tracked Self Propelled (SP) Gun programme for the Indian Army. L&T was declared as the sole qualified bidder, post User Evaluation Trials, based on the performance of the K9 VAJRA-T, a world class self-propelled howitzer appropriately customised and fielded by L&T with HTW as the technology partner. The contract is a result of nearly a decade long close relationship and joint efforts of the two companies on this programme, through extensive user evaluation and field trials followed by contract negotiations with the ministry of defence. The K9 VAJRA-T gun is an enhanced version of HTW’s K9 Thunder, to suit specific requirements of the Indian Army including desert operations.

HTW’s K9 Thunder is one of the best performing self-propelled howitzers in the world with over 1,000 numbers already in service in Korea and few other countries. This programme has set new benchmarks in co-development and co-production of defence systems by Indian private sector defence players and foreign majors. Jayant Patil, head of defence and aerospace and member of heavy engineering board at L&T, said: “This contract marks an important milestone in L&T’s defence business journey and in our relationship with Hanwha Techwin. It will create synergies not only for this programme but also for upcoming Indian and global programmes.

This also marks a giant step forward towards furthering the “Make in India” vision of the government of India. L&T plans to begin production of this vital weapon system at its Strategic Systems Complex at Talegaon near Pune in Maharashtra and deliver the first batch of 10 guns. L&T also has initiated setting up of a green field manufacturing line at Hazira, Gujarat, integral with a state-of- the-art test track, to produce, test and qualify the K9 VAJRA-T guns.” Keeping the spirit of Make in India, L&T shall not only manufacture K9 VAJRA-T in India, with over 50% indigenous content, but also provide through life support from India.
Kakkaji
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Kakkaji »

I have a thought.

The areas of border that the IA plans to deploy the Vajra in, are also likely to be 'happy hunting grounds' for the Arjun.

Can I dream of Indra's son, along with Indra's personal weapon, pouring across the border at Jaisalmer and smashing through Paki defenses for a quick dash to RYK? 8)
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by ArjunPandit »

Kakkaji wrote:I have a thought.

The areas of border that the IA plans to deploy the Vajra in, are also likely to be 'happy hunting grounds' for the Arjun.

Can I dream of Indra's son, along with Indra's personal weapon, pouring across the border at Jaisalmer and smashing through Paki defenses for a quick dash to RYK? 8)
Thoughts like these are called dreams. Sometimes they do come true but only after a long toiling day and a "hard day's night". The day it happens there will be a party on BRF :)
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Prem »

http://www.defencenews.in/article.aspx?id=251656
Indian Army to induct more extended range Pinaka Rocket Launch Systems
Adding fire power to its artillery, the Indian Army is looking to induct eight indigenously developed Pinaka multi-barrel rocket launcher systems. The Pinaka system is designed and developed by two private entities, the Tatas and Larsen and Toubro, in association with the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO).The Defence Acquisition Council cleared a RFP (Request for Proposal) last November for six additional regiments at a cost of ₹14,633 crore. The Indian Army currently operates two regiments of the Pinaka, combat proven and used in the Kargil conflict, that can fire up to 12 missiles in 44 seconds.Pinaka system was developed by the DRDO during early 90’s with L&T and Tata Power as development partners for the launch systems. After years of trials and evaluation and subsequent harmonisation, this weapon system was cleared for induction in the Indian Army about one-and-a-half decades back.Being an indigenously designed and developed system, the same was technologically brought to the state-of-the-art status and two regiments were produced for the Indian Army. Since two indigenous technological solutions were developed, the Ministry of Defence implemented the recommendations of an empowered committee to source the Launchers and Fire control systems (Command Posts) from L&T as well as Tata Power in equal proportion.In November 2016, a contract for two more regiments was placed almost six years after conclusion of negotiations against a June 2010 RFP.
L&T was entrusted the responsibility of realisation of two Multi-Barrel Rocket Launcher Systems (MBRLs) based on the concept and base specifications given by the Armament Research and Development Establishment (ARDE, a DRDO laboratory), but with low voltage battery backed system.The Pinaka MBRL is designed by L&T as an artillery system that is built for operating in ‘silent mode’ and is based on all-electric low-voltage battery backed technology developed in-house. Pinaka Launchers and Command Posts have been serially produced by L&T with indigenous content in excess of 80 per cent, including the imported Inertial Navigation SensorEarly this year, the DRDO tested a new version (Pinaka Mk-II) of the rockets, which can be guided to land on enemy targets. Can you give us some details on the extended range version of the rocket system, and L&T’s technical know-how which will boost the armoury?The Pinaka Mk-II variant has been a joint development by the DRDO in collaboration with the user (Artillery User Directorate) to target a range of 60 km with enhanced terminal accuracy. This is to be achieved by incorporating aerodynamic correction features to modify flight trajectory with the inclusion of INS.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by srai »

^^^

10 Pinaka Regiments
  • 2 x Pinaka Regiments - 2010
  • 2 x Pinaka Regiments- 2016
  • 6 x Pinaka Regiments - 2017* (RFP cleared DAC 2016)
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Singha »

how many launch vehicles and stock of rockets does each regiment have?
srai
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by srai »

Pinaka Battery
  • 1 x Command Post
  • 1 x DIGICORA MET Radar
  • 6 x Launcher -> 12 rockets each (2 pods with 6 rockets each) -> total = 72 rockets (ready to fire)
  • 6 x Loader cum Replenishment (LCR) -> 12 rockets each (2 pods with 6 rockets each) -> total = 72 rockets (reload)
  • 3 x Replenishment (LV) -> 24 rockets each (4 pods with 6 rockets each) -> total = 72 rockets (reload)
Total rockets (deployed) = 216 rockets

Each regiment comprises of 3 Pinaka batteries, plus reserves. That would mean minimum 648 rockets (deployed). More would be in reserves.

Couple of years ago, production of rockets was increased to 5000 a year.

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Gyan
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Gyan »

DAC clearance mean practically nothing.
Indranil
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Indranil »

srai sahab,

Thanks for maintaining these lists and posters at your end.
Will
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Will »

Wonder if they have started work on the 120Km Pinaka III.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Bheeshma »

That would be Pinaka-II? This extended range is Pinaka-1 Mk2? They have the same launcher. Pinaka-II or III will definitely be 300 mm or higher diameter.
Last edited by Bheeshma on 25 Apr 2017 03:01, edited 1 time in total.
Cosmo_R
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Cosmo_R »

Is Murree within range? :)
Bheeshma
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Bheeshma »

Saar from Kargil, Skardu will be in range of Pinaka-II's.
shiv
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by shiv »

What would it take to get the DRDO to release ONE just one video of a Pinaka salvo hitting a simulated target. Propaganda is made from such things and we as hopeless at the boasting and bluster game. Why do we revel in self criticism and "introspection". Is that all about dharma and making oneself pure and honest?
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by vasu raya »

Pinaka's range is alright, but India wouldn't go beyond 155mm artillery during peacetime, the 155mm is also used only when Pakis start their 155mms...we need peacetime weapons too with enough range
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by RohitAM »

I honestly think that we should start thinking "tactical depth" for cross-border firing and punitively punishing the Pakistanis in general. If we are manufacturing almost 5k Pinaka rockets every year, I think we can bring to bear 1-2 regiments of Pinaka on a regular basis to hammer Pakistani heavy artillery, mortar, and bunker positions, as well as supply lines. A sudden salvo firing across the LoC by almost 9 Pinaka batteries targeting various known Pakistani positions (or any important new ones earmarked through drone and satellite surveillance) can catch those idiots off-guard and result in severely steep losses in men and material.

We need to make every experiment by the Pakistani Army super-expensive from the viewpoint of both the Pakistanis as well as their Chinese overlords.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by sudeepj »

RohitAM wrote:I honestly think that we should start thinking "tactical depth" for cross-border firing and punitively punishing the Pakistanis in general. ...
:rotfl: As if Paki jernails give a rats arse about their own civilian population..
RohitAM wrote:We need to make every experiment by the Pakistani Army super-expensive from the viewpoint of both the Pakistanis as well as their Chinese overlords.
Only one way to control the Punjabi jernails. Target the families and their own personal safety.
ArjunPandit
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by ArjunPandit »

since we are in realm of dreams, i would add sudip's wishlist to cart as well
ramana
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by ramana »

Lets stick to topic.

The increase in Pinaka is a great thing.
Are these the MKII which has the Trajectory Correction System (TCS)?
Thanks,
ramana
ArjunPandit
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by ArjunPandit »

So these are the latest #s and timelines on Artillery
1. K9: 100 Delivery starts around 2018
2. Dhanush: 3 inducted 114 order
3. M777: 145; Guns start becoming available starting mid of this year. Chinooks start coming in 2018 and end in 2019
4. ATAGS: Seems like no order has been placed; but requirement running in 1000s; induction expected to startin '19-20; immediate requirement of 114
5. Pinaka : 10 regiments; already inducted; no.s to be increased.
I would also look for situation on Papistan.
One area, that we probably should consider is a plane mounted artillery like one on C130
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by ArjunPandit »

http://rightlog.in/2017/01/india-pakist ... ery-power/
Fairly interesting and detailed analysis. Misses out out on
1. Smerch, Grad and Pinaka
2. the fact that once the upcoming domestic programs mature, the lead will be by miles.
3. Acquisitions will tilt the balance in our favor significantly

But again it talks about "As-Is" state and not "To-Be"
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by malushahi »

5. Pinaka : 10 regiments; already inducted; no.s to be increased.
L&T and Tata Power (SED) are building IA’s third and fourth regiments (ordered in 12/2016). Tender for 6 more in pipeline.
Cosmo_R
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Cosmo_R »

The K9 Vajra stuff. The barrels and the breech will not be made in India apparently because L&T says it's not viable for an order of just 100.

I'm sure that this has been carefully thought through by the MOD Boffins but having commonality among barrels/breeches among the others (ATAGS/Dhanush) would have certainly helped towards an economic order quantity.

As it stands, one can almost predict what will happen: there will be delays on the Dhanush/ATAGS and emergency orders will be placed for the K9s which collectively will form an economic lot but since they are ordered piecemeal initially, we'll forever buy barrels and breeches from the SKOs.

I for one am awed by the fact that NOKOs have been building the 170MM SPG for some 20 plus years. We are still futzing around. THere's no Plan A when it comes to defense matters in India. Whatever its shortcomings, it works well enough for SOKO to bew concerned.
ArjunPandit
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by ArjunPandit »

^^ Multiple live studies have shown that the fear of getting eaten by dogs, shot by anti aircraft guns or murdered in exotic ways works wonders to the creativity and resourcefulness of people.
Try doing that here, RNDTV and physics will be the limit
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by abhik »

So the barrels (which have limited shelf life) of both M777 and K9 will be direct imports.
Keeping the spirit of Make in India, L&T shall not only manufacture K9 VAJRA-T in India, with over 50% indigenous content, but also provide through life support from India.
Wonder what 50% of K9 they are actually making.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by shiv »

abhik wrote: Wonder what 50% of K9 they are actually making.
With respect - the question is the type that one hears answers for on NDTV - that is "The least important and most low tech parts including painting are done in India"

"Painting - done in 4 hours by robots in the US takes 11 days in India"

"India struggles while China surges ahead"

"35 years late Tejas yet to reach Air Force"
ArjunPandit
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by ArjunPandit »

Why should barrel have a shelf life? Titanium does not rust in the normal sense; quick google search yields Titanium Oxide is actually a preventive coating. Wear and erosion is understandable, but shelf life?
Further, chromium is als applied to corrosion resistance.
http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a440980.pdf
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Kashi »

Regular firing would definitely impact the barrel wouldn't it? There would be wear and tear from hosting and propelling an explosive shell over long distances. Should require regular cleaning, maintenance and eventually replacement.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by la.khan »

ArjunPandit wrote:So these are the latest #s and timelines on Artillery
1. K9: 100 Delivery starts around 2018
2. Dhanush: 3 inducted 114 order
3. M777: 145; Guns start becoming available starting mid of this year. Chinooks start coming in 2018 and end in 2019
4. ATAGS: Seems like no order has been placed; but requirement running in 1000s; induction expected to startin '19-20; immediate requirement of 114
5. Pinaka : 10 regiments; already inducted; no.s to be increased.
I would also look for situation on Papistan.
One area, that we probably should consider is a plane mounted artillery like one on C130
Numbers for M777 look okay as these imports and may be needed in limited numbers. Pinaka is shaping up well, ramping up numbers. However, for the rest, are these final numbers? My understanding is that we need 800-1000 each of these. With K9 (100 nos), Dhanush (114 nos), ATAGS (114 nos), the numbers look piecemeal. We have not inducted any new artillery gun in the last 30 years, and when we induct, 100+ here and there?

Is this because of budgetary constraints or logistic constraints or IA can absorb only so many new guns? Or, is this an initial order, once the guns prove themselves in the field, IA may order more?
Thanks for posting that link, very informative and very depressing about current state of affairs (has UPA written all over it). I quote from the above URL:
The Indian light artillery is entirely made up of homegrown guns, this has resulted in high rates of availability and most of the fleet remaining intact over the years
I hope the high rates of availability gets carried over to the K9s, Dhanush, ATAGS guns. It will be good to see these guns inducted in higher hundreds apiece.
Last edited by la.khan on 28 Apr 2017 12:39, edited 1 time in total.
JTull
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by JTull »

Kashi wrote:Regular firing would definitely impact the barrel wouldn't it? There would be wear and tear from hosting and propelling an explosive shell over long distances. Should require regular cleaning, maintenance and eventually replacement.
How many times were original Bofors guns required to change barrels? Without a reference data point, it is 'point'less to wail about some speculative need to forever buy replacement barrels from SoKo.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Kashi »

JTull wrote:
Kashi wrote:Regular firing would definitely impact the barrel wouldn't it? There would be wear and tear from hosting and propelling an explosive shell over long distances. Should require regular cleaning, maintenance and eventually replacement.
How many times were original Bofors guns required to change barrels? Without a reference data point, it is 'point'less to wail about some speculative need to forever buy replacement barrels from SoKo.
I agree that we need proper reference points such as how many times were these Bofors guns fired and it was reported during the Kargil war that quite a few guns had to be cannibalised to keep the others functioning. Again, what components were cannibalised, we do not know.

Not everything is wailing. I was merely speculating on whether a barrel would have a shelf life or not.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Pratyush »

Typically the barrels for arty guns need replacement after 1500 to 2500 rounds depending upon the caliber of the guns.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by srai »

Kashi wrote:Regular firing would definitely impact the barrel wouldn't it? There would be wear and tear from hosting and propelling an explosive shell over long distances. Should require regular cleaning, maintenance and eventually replacement.
Read this:
Wear and Erosion in Large Caliber Gun Barrels
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Singha »

i read once that tank barrels need to get replaced after some 50 shots since pin-point precision is quite important for tanks vs tanks.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Yagnasri »

From what I read before ( I think here only) Bofors barrels are MII for a long time.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by darshhan »

Singha wrote:i read once that tank barrels need to get replaced after some 50 shots since pin-point precision is quite important for tanks vs tanks.
I read somewhere that wear and tear threshold for tank barrels is between 100-200 rounds. Although training rounds would be more corrosive. I doubt if they would be using sabot rounds for practice
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by JTull »

Kashi wrote:
JTull wrote:
How many times were original Bofors guns required to change barrels? Without a reference data point, it is 'point'less to wail about some speculative need to forever buy replacement barrels from SoKo.
I agree that we need proper reference points such as how many times were these Bofors guns fired and it was reported during the Kargil war that quite a few guns had to be cannibalised to keep the others functioning. Again, what components were cannibalised, we do not know.

Not everything is wailing. I was merely speculating on whether a barrel would have a shelf life or not.
Lot of opinions but no data points.

I'd counter that all the Bofors are using original barrels as they were blacklisted and any contact was banned. Only in the last 5 years have the plans that were originally received have been dusted off. Go figure!

If it was not wailing then how did you take a statement by someone that the barrels are to be imported to conclude that we'll forever be dependent on SoKo and how short-term planning this is. Without comparable figures it just betrays your insecurities.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by srai »

JTull wrote:...Only in the last 5 years have the plans that were originally received have been dusted off. Go figure!

...
Untrue statement.

GCF has been actively involved in maintaining Bofors making components/spare parts from the beginning. Also, another poster on this forum had mentioned barrel technology was mastered before 2004. A 45-cal model was displayed at DefExpo 2004. Here is mody's post on that.

Indian Army handed over 'desi Bofors' artillery guns
...
The Indian Army had stationed a special team of officers at the GCF to help monitor the progress, coordinate proof resources and provide guidance regarding the qualitative requirements vis-a-vis the gun system from the user's perspective, the official said.

"A team from the 506 Army Base Workshop, close to CGF, had constantly provided technical inputs which it acquired by repairing Bofors gun for over two decades," he said.

The Swedish Bofors company (now owned by Britain's BAE System) could not complete the ToT for the 155 mm howitzer with 39 calibre to India, as the deal got embroiled in a major political row over alleged kickbacks in 80s.

Subsequently, the OFB struggled for a long time to produce the howitzer indigenously despite the fact that it has manufactured and supplied several components or spare parts to keep the Bofors howitzers operational in India, especially during Kargil war.


The army had been desperately looking for 155 mm howitzers for more than a decade now. It had roped in an Israeli company Soltam to upgrade the imported, Russian-made 130 mm gun to 155 mm at GCF. But the project, after the upgraded gun's trial, ran into hot water, the official claimed.

Four years ago, the Defence Acquisition Council decided to look for artillery guns within the country and asked the OFB to start manufacturing howitzers.

Towards that end, former Defence Minister AK Antony flagged off a 155 mm gun manufacturing facility at GCF on September 22, 2012.

"The project has received support and active cooperation from other ordnance factories, PSUs such as SAIL, BEL, and many private sector companies. Their support has made the project a huge success," the official added.
...
abhik
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by abhik »

This link I found specifies the barrel life of M777 to be 2,650 firings.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Kashi »

Delhi Defence Review‏ @delhidefence
Rate production of 155 mm bi-modular charge systems is underway at OFB's Nalanda Factory. Thousands of units have been delivered to the IA.
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