LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

All threads that are locked or marked for deletion will be moved to this forum. The topics will be cleared from this archive on the 1st and 16th of each month.
srai
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4812
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 11:31

Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby srai » 12 May 2017 19:29

^^^

Second line coming into play according to AK.

Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8290
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Indranil » 12 May 2017 19:37

It has been in play from SP2 onwards.

nits
BRFite
Posts: 1020
Joined: 01 May 2006 22:56
Location: Some where near Equator...

Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby nits » 12 May 2017 20:12

Tejas successfully test-fires BVR missile From Rediff

Tejas, the Light Combat Aircraft, today successfully demonstrated an Air-to-Air Beyond Visual Range missile firing capability by releasing Derby Air-to-Air BVR missile in RADAR guided mode.

The missile launch was performed in Lock ON after Launch mode for a BVR target in the look down mode and the target was destroyed.

The objective of the test was to assess the Derby integration with aircraft systems on-board Tejas including the aircraft avionics, fire-control radar, launchers and Missile Weapon Delivery System and to verify its performance.

The test was conducted on a Manoeuvrable Aerial Target at the Interim Test Range (ITR), Chandipur. The sensors at ITR also tracked the target and missile.

A safe separation was followed by missile guidance towards RADAR acquired target.The flawless launch was demonstrated with all on-board systems performing satisfactorily and the missile scored a direct hit on the target with complete destruction of it.

The test firing achieved all its planned objectives.

The Derby firing is a major step towards clearing BVR capabilities on LCA aircraft for FOC. -- ANI


Image

Bheeshma
BRFite
Posts: 592
Joined: 15 Aug 2016 22:01

Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Bheeshma » 12 May 2017 21:26

Why not Astra? Even MK-I has higher or similar range as Derby.

Marten
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2176
Joined: 01 Jan 2010 21:41
Location: Engaging Communists, Uber-Socialists, Maoists, and other pro-poverty groups in fruitful dialog.

Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Marten » 12 May 2017 22:00

Indranil wrote:It has been in play from SP2 onwards.

Could you please elaborate if possible? As in, there are probably 4 (perhaps 6?) jigs at what we shall call final assembly shed 1, and let's say two more at shed 2 (or Kiran hangar). At seven months integration time (plus?) with 45 days final equipping, they will be able to churn out 12 every 18 months if all suppliers have had enough time to ramp up supplies. Is this more or less the situation, if not what are we missing?

To add, SP5 is from line 2 while SP 6-9 would be from the first line. So would 10,11 be from line 2 and 12-15 from line 1 and so on? Basically we should four more in 3 months if the earlier pace holds. If they are taking a month more for each, then the schedule delay cascades...

Please help me understand this set up.
Last edited by Marten on 12 May 2017 22:15, edited 1 time in total.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 55201
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby ramana » 12 May 2017 22:12

Bheeshma wrote:Why not Astra? Even MK-I has higher or similar range as Derby.

Will happen later.
This is to qualify Derby with 2032 radar.

JayS
Forum Moderator
Posts: 4565
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby JayS » 12 May 2017 22:27

Bheeshma wrote:Why not Astra? Even MK-I has higher or similar range as Derby.


Astra was conceived for LCA IIRC, so its a given. All in good time. But currently its not a mature missile and LCA cannot wait anymore.

We are going so slow on all our projects. :((

Santosh
BRFite
Posts: 743
Joined: 13 Apr 2005 01:55

Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Santosh » 12 May 2017 23:08

Good to see Tejas progressing so well towards FOC. Is there anything else pending for FOC other than missile and gun trials?

Marten
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2176
Joined: 01 Jan 2010 21:41
Location: Engaging Communists, Uber-Socialists, Maoists, and other pro-poverty groups in fruitful dialog.

Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Marten » 12 May 2017 23:20

Qualification of the refuelling probe in all regimes?

ashishvikas
BRFite
Posts: 576
Joined: 17 Oct 2016 14:18

Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby ashishvikas » 12 May 2017 23:23

Marten wrote:Qualification of the refuelling probe in all regimes?


Does that mean FOC will get cleared before actual mid air refueling test happens ?

Prasad
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7574
Joined: 16 Nov 2007 00:53
Location: Chennai

Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Prasad » 12 May 2017 23:24

Depends on what the IAF and ADA agree on I'd guess.

Marten
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2176
Joined: 01 Jan 2010 21:41
Location: Engaging Communists, Uber-Socialists, Maoists, and other pro-poverty groups in fruitful dialog.

Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Marten » 12 May 2017 23:25

ashishvikas wrote:
Marten wrote:Qualification of the refuelling probe in all regimes?

Does that mean FOC will get cleared before actual mid air refueling test happens ?

How so? Didn't understand your question.
Rather, if it is a critical part of FOC, would it not have to be completed? Would qualification not include refuelling itself at least once?

ashishvikas
BRFite
Posts: 576
Joined: 17 Oct 2016 14:18

Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby ashishvikas » 12 May 2017 23:31

Marten wrote:
ashishvikas wrote:Does that mean FOC will get cleared before actual mid air refueling test happens ?

How so? Didn't understand your question.
Rather, if it is a critical part of FOC, would it not have to be completed? Would qualification not include refuelling itself at least once?


Indranil wrote it earlier - "3. IFR testing: IAF wants the aircraft with the probe to be cleared for all parts of the envelop. Actual refueling in air has been pushed beyond FOC (shouldn't be a hassle)."

Marten
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2176
Joined: 01 Jan 2010 21:41
Location: Engaging Communists, Uber-Socialists, Maoists, and other pro-poverty groups in fruitful dialog.

Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Marten » 12 May 2017 23:37

Finally got what you are saying: So if gun trials and in air refuelling are not part of FOC... perhaps lungi dance time?
Would like to hear for sure though!

JTull
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2802
Joined: 18 Jul 2001 11:31

Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby JTull » 12 May 2017 23:40

I thought AI-17 news was that refuelling probe is for nos. 21-40 which will be built to FOC standard. Nos. 3-20 are IOC2 standard without the probe.

Kartik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5418
Joined: 04 Feb 2004 12:31

Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Kartik » 13 May 2017 00:20

The pics of LSP-4 prior to departure show that it carried a camera mounted on the airframe. So we should probably get another video of the Derby launch, as seen from the onboard camera.

But this is a big milestone. No one can take pot shots at the Tejas anymore, citing lack of BVR capability. It clears the way for almost full combat capability. A few more test launches will be required to test out all test points for BVR capability. Also important to note that the target was maneuvering and the missile was fired with the radar in look-down mode- clearly more complicated than the clutter free look-up mode.

And program officials are confident of achieving FOC by Dec 2017, that's another 6 months. Quite an achievement, when one considers that it was accorded induction into the IAF only mid last year. But the FOC SOP (Standard of Preparation) will be finalized this June, which is crucial in allowing HAL to begin the build of the second batch of 20 FOC standard Tejas Mk1s.

By comparison, the Gripen E will begin to enter Brazilian and SwAF service in 2019 and only reach FOC in 2023, a full 4 years after deliveries start to the SwAF and 2 years after they begin to be delivered to the FAB. Supposedly the Gripen E's delivered to the FAB will be IOC capable Gripen E's, as per the head of FAB.
Last edited by Kartik on 13 May 2017 00:32, edited 1 time in total.

ashishvikas
BRFite
Posts: 576
Joined: 17 Oct 2016 14:18

Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby ashishvikas » 13 May 2017 00:29

^^ That maneuvering Target was Banshee Drone. (Confirmed today by Tejas-LCA Facebook Admin)

JayS
Forum Moderator
Posts: 4565
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby JayS » 13 May 2017 01:44

Marten wrote:Qualification of the refuelling probe in all regimes?

Since its non retracting IFR probe, its effect on entire flight envelop needs to be qualified.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 19874
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Karan M » 13 May 2017 02:10

srai wrote:Image


Wow

I hope the IAF gets some sense and orders more Mk1As instead of waiting for unobtainium in the form of some MII this or that.

srai
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4812
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 11:31

Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby srai » 13 May 2017 02:13

Indranil wrote:It has been in play from SP2 onwards.

I think AK was talking from this pov:
HAL sets up second Tejas production line

srai
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4812
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 11:31

Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby srai » 13 May 2017 02:46

Kartik wrote:...
A few more test launches will be required to test out all test points for BVR capability. Also important to note that the target was maneuvering and the missile was fired with the radar in look-down mode- clearly more complicated than the clutter free look-up mode.
...


It seems they chose one of the more difficult BVR engagement profiles in the first attempt itself. Rest should be a breeze.

If I remember correctly, Barak-8 was "qualified" after only 4 firings. It just shows if most of the stuff can be proven through simulation (or other on-the-ground proofing) the flight tests can be limited to a handful. By maximizing each sortie through the combination of more difficult test points, the system can be proven much quicker. I read an article long time ago on F-22 weapons testing and it had mentioned that it took one-month of preparation per weapon qualification sortie. They were able to reduce the number of sorties required for qualification through simulation and combining test points, which directly/in-directly proved bunch of intermediary test cases without having to test each case separately.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 19874
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Karan M » 13 May 2017 02:52

Kartik wrote:Also important to note that the target was maneuvering and the missile was fired with the radar in look-down mode- clearly more complicated than the clutter free look-up mode.


Great point. I believe they will conduct launch against a supersonic, receding target

srai
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4812
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 11:31

Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby srai » 13 May 2017 03:28

Typical test cases:
  • far/near boundary
  • crossing
  • receeding/approaching
  • subsonic/supersonic
  • maneuvering
  • high/low altitude
  • ECM
  • LOBL/LOAL
  • off-bore sight
  • look up/look down
  • single/multi target(s)
  • single/multi sensors

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 19874
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Karan M » 13 May 2017 03:53

if we see the akash trials, literally all were tested, tough stds for desi product and relatively inexpensive missiles.
for derby, my take is some 4 tests (at max) will be done, for the corner cases (hardest ones).

sum
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10115
Joined: 08 May 2007 17:04
Location: (IT-vity && DRDO) nagar

Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby sum » 13 May 2017 04:53

ashishvikas wrote:^^ That maneuvering Target was Banshee Drone. (Confirmed today by Tejas-LCA Facebook Admin)

Why not the Lakshya?
Is the Banshee superior since i had assumed that we would be pretty much indiginised in the PTA atleast.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 19874
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Karan M » 13 May 2017 06:18

the banshee is likely cheaper. we have had them for a while now.

mirach is faster and we can expect it to be used in trials as well.

lakshya PTA et al effort will all truly take off once we get more of our own engines of different types.

ADE is not that focused on UAVs either right now. mandate is Nirbhay, Rustom & PGMs.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 19874
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Karan M » 13 May 2017 06:19

lakshya is in service btw. its just that with OTS drones available now for training DRDO is focused on weaponry more and more.

Cain Marko
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4700
Joined: 26 Jun 2005 10:26

Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Cain Marko » 13 May 2017 18:33

Karan M wrote:
srai wrote:Image


Wow

I hope the IAF gets some sense and orders more Mk1As instead of waiting for unobtainium in the form of some MII this or that.


I'm hoping for exactly this at foc Or bigger order for more FOC std. Would be a shame if this doesn't happen

suryag
Forum Moderator
Posts: 3851
Joined: 11 Jan 2009 00:14

Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby suryag » 14 May 2017 10:34

Saars bliss to identify the new things on LSP-04 during the BVR test(apart from drop tanks, high speed camera)

https://scontent.fmaa1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/18423104_1399911123436665_7655243666012472588_o.jpg?oh=8dad7d4b523188901325685a1a240336&oe=59BFCEA2

ashishvikas
BRFite
Posts: 576
Joined: 17 Oct 2016 14:18

Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby ashishvikas » 14 May 2017 10:53

^^ LSP04 is having Cobham Quartz Radome ??

Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8290
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Indranil » 14 May 2017 20:10

yes. Second aircraft to be fitted with the same.

Khalsa
BRFite
Posts: 1709
Joined: 12 Nov 2000 12:31
Location: NZL

Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Khalsa » 15 May 2017 02:48

More progress towards the FoC. Yay !!

srai
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4812
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 11:31

Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby srai » 15 May 2017 11:40

Smoke vs no smoke

R-73
Image

Derby
Image

Astra
Image

nvishal
BRFite
Posts: 964
Joined: 14 Aug 2010 18:03

Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby nvishal » 15 May 2017 11:52

Indranil wrote:
nvishal wrote:A good way to understand the progress of tejas:

As per stockholm arms transfer register: sipri.org/databases/armstransfers

Engine orders since 1990-2016 from USA to india - Three instances total

F404 Turbofan
2004 - 20 units (5 units delivered in 2016). 15 maybe cancelled and deal abandoned

2007 - 24 units (no deliveries yet) Maybe order never concluded


This cannot be correct, can it? We have had 2 TDs, 5 PVs, 7 LSPs, 2 NPs, and 4 SPs already. That's 20 engines already.

I have yet to see 2+ tejas fighters in one room. My guess is that they take it apart completely and use the parts on the upgraded prototype. This also makes economic sense. Wonder why they'd leave a million dollar engine resting on an old prototype at the hanger for years. Simple logic says that they are using it again and again. Although I agree that open source does not track deliveries data.

Marten
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2176
Joined: 01 Jan 2010 21:41
Location: Engaging Communists, Uber-Socialists, Maoists, and other pro-poverty groups in fruitful dialog.

Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Marten » 15 May 2017 11:58

>>I have yet to see 2+ tejas fighters in one room.

TejaS main hoon, woh Mark (1A) hai! :rotfl:
Props: "Teja main hoon, mark idhar hai' "
Image

JayS
Forum Moderator
Posts: 4565
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby JayS » 15 May 2017 12:57

nvishal wrote:
Indranil wrote:
This cannot be correct, can it? We have had 2 TDs, 5 PVs, 7 LSPs, 2 NPs, and 4 SPs already. That's 20 engines already.

I have yet to see 2+ tejas fighters in one room. My guess is that they take it apart completely and use the parts on the upgraded prototype. This also makes economic sense. Wonder why they'd leave a million dollar engine resting on an old prototype at the hanger for years. Simple logic says that they are using it again and again. Although I agree that open source does not track deliveries data.


Well I don't know which room exactly you are talking about. But surely the LCA hangers in IAF hold more than 2 at any time. But even seeing 100 LCAs in a big room, says anything about how many of them have engines inside..? :?:

Up to 5 have been seen flying together, at least once. I have never seen more than 5 flying at a time. But then does that corroborate your data point of 5 engine deliveries..?? :?: But then I have never seen more than 6 Su-30MKI flying at a time. :(( :((

Simple logic is OK, but oversimplification can get you in trouble sometimes. :P

Neshant
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4850
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby Neshant » 15 May 2017 14:20

Saab is still pumping away putting out announcements to the effect that "Saab is ready to build 200 Gripens for India".

Everyone and their mom is ready to build 200 planes and send India the bill.

However if the single engine aircraft market is not preserved for domestic players and the IAF keeps flooding the country with foreign wares, there will be no indigenous R&D aerospace industry.

There is near zero effort on the civilian front at aircraft design & development.
If they "gift" away the military market to foreign arms manufacturers, there will be nothing left.

Meanwhile the IAF seems to have resumed its efforts at single engine foreign plane import lobbying..... :roll:

tsarkar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3263
Joined: 08 May 2006 13:44
Location: mumbai

Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby tsarkar » 15 May 2017 17:43

Image
IN Lakshya and Banshee at INS Dega, Vizag for Eastern Fleet use. IAF and DRDO have separate stocks.

tsarkar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3263
Joined: 08 May 2006 13:44
Location: mumbai

Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby tsarkar » 15 May 2017 17:49

JayS wrote:
Bheeshma wrote:Why not Astra? Even MK-I has higher or similar range as Derby.


Astra was conceived for LCA IIRC, so its a given. All in good time. But currently its not a mature missile and LCA cannot wait anymore.

We are going so slow on all our projects. :((


Astra is conceived as an R-77 replacement, has a Russian seeker and interfaced to the Russian datalink and Bars radar.

Derby is interfaced to Israeli datalink and Elta 2032.

Marriage of Astra to 2032 with different DNA is possible, but would take time.

Simpler to use similar DNA - Litening, DASH, Derby, Griffin, 2032, 8222...

srai
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4812
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 11:31

Re: LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Postby srai » 15 May 2017 20:25

nvishal wrote:...
I have yet to see 2+ tejas fighters in one room. ...


Image
Image
Image


Return to “Trash Can Archive”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 7 guests