Artillery: News & Discussion

Locked
Kakkaji
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3866
Joined: 23 Oct 2002 11:31

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Kakkaji »

Karan M wrote:^^ seems to be typical babu-giri to make things easy for themselves and protect dpsus like OFB and the shipyards from competition. if a company has capability it should be allowed in every space.
Some other private company will get SP for warships. Maybe Pipavav (Reliance)?
Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 20773
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Karan M »

yes - that would be my guess. they have a tie-up with MDL already.
Kashi
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3671
Joined: 06 May 2011 13:53

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Kashi »

In this case, I wouldn't worry about the colour of the desi billi as long as it catches the mice.

Now hope we some movement on the Mounted Gun system tender soon. According to the article posted above, the trials have been completed and the choice has been narrowed down to Nexter and Elbit.
Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Singha »

All capacity should be used and overflow work not delayed...pace has to be kept up. One co could be lead integrator but others cos also produce to the design.
Arent ddg51 ships made in 2 locations? I have seen the bath iron works in maine...read of another one in south coast.

Let them subcontract freely as needed incl between the tier1 i integrators

In next 15 yrs we must have a big pvt defmilind complex. We are falling way behind chinese production on many fronts. They are churning out ffg hulls like macd burgers and atleast 2-3 ddg a year
Bishwa
BRFite
Posts: 314
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Bishwa »

would the K9 Vajra turn out to be the armys first 52 cal 155 MM gun?

it should be able to travel to the LOC... afterall where tanks can be stationed, so can this one...

could the Vajra put the mirpur area and the mangla dam in range?

from naushera, these areas dont look that far of in the map
Kakkaji
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3866
Joined: 23 Oct 2002 11:31

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Kakkaji »

Vajra's optimal use is in mobile warfare. Not against large, static targets across the border. Towed will be cheaper to use against those IMHO.
Bishwa
BRFite
Posts: 314
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Bishwa »

The question is in the short term.

It sounds like the Vajra may be coming soon and it is of 52 Cal. Something the army does not possess currently.

The range quoted for the K9 in wiki for Base Bleed + Rocket Assisted is 52–56K

That could put mirpur and the dam area in range from naushera area?
shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by shiv »

Kakkaji wrote:Vajra's optimal use is in mobile warfare. Not against large, static targets across the border. Towed will be cheaper to use against those IMHO.
What is mobile warfare?
sudeepj
BRFite
Posts: 1976
Joined: 27 Nov 2008 11:25

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by sudeepj »

shiv wrote:
Kakkaji wrote:Vajra's optimal use is in mobile warfare. Not against large, static targets across the border. Towed will be cheaper to use against those IMHO.
What is mobile warfare?
When you post propaganda on Twitter, Facebook etc. From your mobile.
Bheeshma
BRFite
Posts: 592
Joined: 15 Aug 2016 22:01

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Bheeshma »

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
Good one But I do believe that a MGS will probably be faster and useful for a mobile thrust along with armored columns in case of cold start.
Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Singha »

As a data point samsung provided tech for turkiye 155/52 panter towed gun of which pakis have 72 already in service. They also setup a ammo plant for same in tsp. The general look of carriage is like the g5.

In addition the turkiye 155/52 firtina sp features the k9 turret ...the pakis have not purchased as they get m109a5 sp in dozens for free.

Wiki

Turkish Army – around 255 acquired until 2012; total 400 planned.[4]
Pakistan Pakistan Army – 72+ in service. 12 ordered for evaluation in 2007 and delivered by Turkey between 2008–09. Another 60 produced locally under ToT between 2011 and 2013 [5] by Heavy Industries Taxila (HIT).[6]


What chassis will our k9 be mounted on? The turks used the leopard2a4 chassis it looks like. The recoil forces are huge...i hope its not t90 chassis..
Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Singha »

The turks use the firtina weekly to shell kurdish villages on the syrian side. The firing positions are fronted by U shaped earth berms....if the us or russia gives wlr or real time coords to ypg and gives them grad rockets then kurds can strike back else no way

http://www.karamapress.com/images_lib/i ... 2_2091.jpg
Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Singha »

So its not like the k9 vajra is a wonder weapon that will change things

If we are serious about change we need 2000 atags dhanush on war footing and ability to use them all in punishing soviet army group type blitzes.
Aditya_V
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14333
Joined: 05 Apr 2006 16:25

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Aditya_V »

It would be nice to know what the Paki artillery resources are compared with ours including Smerch Chinese copies. It is this factor plus F16 BVR which has given them confidence which was not there in 2000-10 timeframe
Bishwa
BRFite
Posts: 314
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Bishwa »

I think a key question is of range. What extra capability in range with the K9 Vajra bring. And if it can be used to target some targets which were not possible before using the Bofors in the LOC. Especially in the Naushera area
shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by shiv »

Bheeshma wrote::rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
Good one But I do believe that a MGS will probably be faster and useful for a mobile thrust along with armored columns in case of cold start.
Artillery never moves with tanks in a thrust. Artillery always stays behind in a fixed place (apart from some movement to avoid counter-battery) - and hits the areas ahead that the tanks and troops are going to advance into later. Once they advance and take that area, the artillery can move forward a bit and start pounding something further forward. The opposite may happen. Artillery (from rear areas) may have to cover a withdrawal or retreat where enemy advancing columns are pounded while troops and tanks withdraw after which the artillery moves back. Basically artillery stays put when others are moving - helping that movement by shooting, not moving
Bheeshma
BRFite
Posts: 592
Joined: 15 Aug 2016 22:01

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Bheeshma »

Yes but for Cold start they need to get the guns into position quickly. Once the armored column has moved on Arty has to follow albeit at a safe distance.
Bishwa
BRFite
Posts: 314
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Bishwa »

The M109A5 has a 39 Cal gun. This the PA has. The K9 Vajra is 52 Cal. The Firtina is based on K9 but the PA does not have it.

The Panter is based on Singapore technology. Although it is 52 Cal. This the PA has.
shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by shiv »

Bheeshma wrote:Yes but for Cold start they need to get the guns into position quickly. Once the armored column has moved on Arty has to follow albeit at a safe distance.
Guns are probably already in position or minutes away - but they will form only one part of the hammering. An entire cold start front may not follow the formula that I mentioned.

Remember that if the guns are 10 km behind the frontiine they can hit anything from 11 to 30 km away. So even if the frontline moves 15 km the guns will still be able to hit stuff ahead of the battle zone without moving. But if an advance is so rapid that those 15 km are gained in a day or less - some of the guns will move forward or move elsewhere depending on the terrain and requirements. Forward columns that advance too rapidly will find that they are stretching their logistics lines too far - so they have to advance, dig in, get ready for counter attacks which will come, and wait for logistics (water, fuel ammo, comm lines, reinforcements) to catch up during which period the guns will also move forward, but will still stay 5-10 km behind the frontline. No "mobile warfare" of guns and frontline moving simultaneously.
Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Singha »

the only advantage of tracked K9 chassis over regular towed 155/52 or /45 guns could be they can march into the desert areas of jaisalmer and barmer behind armour divisions without waiting for engineers to lay tracks on the sandy soil which trucks would need.

since they have more automated loader inside, the rate of fire might be a bit higher.

at the cost of higher capex and opex. imo truck systems like Archer are bridging the gap between pure towed and tracked....it has a ready magazine of 20 rounds attached near the breech and is automated. so it can unleash all these rounds before driving away quickly. I believe thats where the world is moving to, rather than ponderous PZH2000 type heavies...the US cancelled the crusader and depends on M109 for now, with no apparent plans for a tracked howitzer. even the NLOS cannon on stryker looks dead. maybe they will use MLRS, M777 and CAS instead of long guns.

maybe the additional range of /52 over /39 cal is not a magic bullet except in the mountains where the US never fights. it permits better selection of firing sites.
Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21538
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Philip »

Saw a great pic in the media today about the completion of Asia's longest bridge being built over the Brahmaputra.It will cut 4 hrs. time to service the NEast. One intg. fact. The bridge can allow arty,AVs,MBTs,etc. of upto 60t to use it which makes a huge strat. gain for us in defending the NEast. Here one can see the IA's aversion to Arjun for logistic reasons.
Karthik S
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5380
Joined: 18 Sep 2009 12:12

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Karthik S »

NEW DELHI — In a move aimed at becoming more self-sufficient with multi-barrel rocket launchers, the Indian Ministry of Defence has floated a big-ticket bid to buy six regiments of homemade Pinaka multi-barrel rocket launchers for $2 billion. The order for the acquisition is expected to be placed within 18 months.

Last December, the ministry placed an order for two regiments — one regiment is 18 systems — totaling a $350 million order for the Pinaka rocket launchers. Industry sources say India is now contemplating exporting the Pinaka.
http://www.defensenews.com/articles/ind ... lued-at-2b
Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Singha »

it is the 9km dhola-sadiya bridge. PM will open it this week

http://sevendiary.com/wp-content/upload ... 50x270.jpg
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhola-Sadiya_bridge

it has been completed on a war footing in just 6 yrs given the vast flows of water in that place

the jinxed dibrugarh bogibeel bridge should also come online shortly
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bogibeel_Bridge

bogibeel is a road cum rail bridge...so armour , trucks, artillery and containers in BG flatbed cars can be brought in from any part of india and funneled into arunachal.
manjgu
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2615
Joined: 11 Aug 2006 10:33

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by manjgu »

also tracked SP artillery is less vulnerable to counter battery fire
rohitvats
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 7830
Joined: 08 Sep 2005 18:24
Location: Jatland

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by rohitvats »

Pakistan does not have 72 of those Turkish guns. Nor have any been produced in-house. Pakistan does not produce any artillery piece; does some mods to their older M-109.

As for tracked arty, it is about mobility through a terrain which wheeled vehicles might not be able to cope. Secondly, it carries its own magazine. Plus, the armor does give some protection against shrapnel.

The reason we've limited no of tracked SP arty is because, such terrain where only tracked solution might work was limited to certain areas. We had wheeled and tracked SP arty. Apart from mounted-gun-system - which is also an SP system. Most probably, the wheeled SP arty will see tracked guns instead. So about 280-300 guns in all (including present 100 guns).
uddu
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2091
Joined: 15 Aug 2004 17:09

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by uddu »

Philip wrote:The bridge can allow arty,AVs,MBTs,etc. of upto 60t to use it which makes a huge strat. gain for us in defending the NEast. Here one can see the IA's aversion to Arjun for logistic reasons.
Arjun Mark-1 is less than 60t. And must have been kept in mind while designing this bridge. So we get to move a better tank onto the other side. Now the Army can field Arjun in numbers in Arunachal.
Also the Mark-II is Mark-1 with add on armour and component improvement. The Armour can be fitted on the other side to the Mark-1 and we have Mark-II defending us. So with this bridge Army is provided with the ability to field a better tank like the Arjun all along the NE.
srai
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5249
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 11:31

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by srai »

^^^

There is another bridge under construction for rails and those will support a lot more than 60t.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=6651&start=2680#p2156624
Kakkaji
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3866
Joined: 23 Oct 2002 11:31

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Kakkaji »

Big guns: First modern 155 mm artillery guns to land in India after the Bofors scandal of 1980s 8)
NEW DELHI: India has now exorcised the ominous Bofors ghost haunting its artillery modernization plans for the last 30 years. In the first modern 155mm artillery guns to be inducted by the Army since the 1980s, two of the 145 M-777 ultra-light howitzers ordered from the US will touch down here on Thursday morning.

Defence sources on Wednesday said the two howitzers, which will come in a chartered aircraft from the UK, will be taken to the Pokhran ranges for testing and "compilation of the firing tables" for subsequent use. "The firing tables, with the guns being tested for different kinds of Indian ammunition with bi-modular charges, will take some time to be formulated," said a source.
Cosmo_R
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3407
Joined: 24 Apr 2010 01:24

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Cosmo_R »

rohitvats wrote:Pakistan does not have 72 of those Turkish guns. Nor have any been produced in-house. Pakistan does not produce any artillery piece; does some mods to their older M-109.

As for tracked arty, it is about mobility through a terrain which wheeled vehicles might not be able to cope. Secondly, it carries its own magazine. Plus, the armor does give some protection against shrapnel.

The reason we've limited no of tracked SP arty is because, such terrain where only tracked solution might work was limited to certain areas. We had wheeled and tracked SP arty. Apart from mounted-gun-system - which is also an SP system. Most probably, the wheeled SP arty will see tracked guns instead. So about 280-300 guns in all (including present 100 guns).
Question. Isn't the whole idea behind modern arty to shoot and scoot? For us what does the tracked vs wheeled imply based on location—along the border with pakistan?
Cosmo_R
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3407
Joined: 24 Apr 2010 01:24

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Cosmo_R »

shiv wrote:

What is mobile warfare?
Ask the Egyptians 8)
DrRatnadip
BRFite
Posts: 604
Joined: 31 Dec 2016 00:40

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by DrRatnadip »

http://m.timesofindia.com/india/big-gun ... 721807.cms

In the first modern 155mm artillery guns to be inducted by the Army since the 1980s, two of the 145 M-777 ultra-light howitzers ordered from the US will touch down here on Thursday morning.
srai
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5249
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 11:31

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by srai »

2019-2020 will be the 155mm artillery bonanza year for the IA. Mass induction will start taking place then.
  • Dhanush 155mm/45 cal
  • K9 Vajra SP 155mm/52 cal
  • M-777 ultra-light 155mm/39 cal
Plus, 2 + 6 Pinaka Regiments would also start mass induction around that time. ATAGS 155mm/52 cal would follow soon after. Follow-on orders for SP and ultra-light are likely. Only the Mounted Gun on a wheeled platform remains to be signed.

By 2025, the IA will be pretty well set with its artillery modernization/expansion.
shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by shiv »

Cosmo_R wrote: Question. Isn't the whole idea behind modern arty to shoot and scoot? For us what does the tracked vs wheeled imply based on location—along the border with pakistan?
No. Shoot and scoot is only when there is risk of counter battery fire. Otherwise artillery will sit there and blast the others to bits and move only when needed. Artillery is meant to lay down heavy deadly and demoralizing volumes of fire using multiple guns. One shot here and one shot there is no good for that but heavy fire can be maintained by moving between 2-3 presurveyed positions
Khalsa
BRFite
Posts: 1769
Joined: 12 Nov 2000 12:31
Location: NZL

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Khalsa »

YUHOO good times.
Arty, parties {again}!
Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Singha »

and more importantly the domestic Nalanda plant for the shells seems to be in production. we need millions of shells in stockpile.
Prasad
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7793
Joined: 16 Nov 2007 00:53
Location: Chennai

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Prasad »

Manu pubby posted on twitter saying the first two guns are already here :)
la.khan
BRFite
Posts: 467
Joined: 15 Aug 2016 05:02

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by la.khan »

srai wrote:2019-2020 will be the 155mm artillery bonanza year for the IA. Mass induction will start taking place then.
  • Dhanush 155mm/45 cal
  • K9 Vajra SP 155mm/52 cal
  • M-777 ultra-light 155mm/39 cal
Plus, 2 + 6 Pinaka Regiments would also start mass induction around that time. ATAGS 155mm/52 cal would follow soon after. Follow-on orders for SP and ultra-light are likely. Only the Mounted Gun on a wheeled platform remains to be signed.

By 2025, the IA will be pretty well set with its artillery modernization/expansion.
Sir, while I welcome induction of new hardware into IA, my pet peeve is these are inducted in piecemeal fashion, a 100 here and another 100 there. By 2025, I wish we induct 800-1000 each of Dhanush, K9, ATAGS. Then, I will consider IA done with artillery modernization.

To get there, we need to produce 2/week, a 100/year and in 7-8 years, we can have 800 guns of each. To me, this looks doable.
jamwal
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 5727
Joined: 19 Feb 2008 21:28
Location: Somewhere Else
Contact:

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by jamwal »

How'll you arrange for and manage small aspects like money, personnel training, logistics , testing, ammunition etc etc ?
la.khan
BRFite
Posts: 467
Joined: 15 Aug 2016 05:02

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by la.khan »

jamwal wrote:How'll you arrange for and manage small aspects like money, personnel training, logistics , testing, ammunition etc etc ?
Sahib, that is true but we will have 7-8 years for ramping all this, no? Initially, IA may absorb less number of guns but eventually, IA will have all these as part of SOP. If we want to maintain a 2 front posture, we need the requisite hardware, no skimping there.

Just my do paise.
jamwal
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 5727
Joined: 19 Feb 2008 21:28
Location: Somewhere Else
Contact:

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by jamwal »

There is not enough manufacturing capability, even if IA can absorb all these numbers. Setting up manufacturing plants and increasing capacity takes time.. But going by how things work here, we'll be lucky to have a total of 500 guns in 8 years,
Locked