Artillery: News & Discussion

Locked
Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Singha »

Giving monopoly on arty production to gcf to please their employees union is ridiculous. The ringleaders should be jailed and the rest given a ultimatum to work or leave.

We need much faster production and only pvt sector can close the gap.

To face china even a madman wont think a production of 2 or 5 guns a month is sufficient just because thats all gcf can and will do.

Its not building the moon rocket. 100s of trucks and cars roll of factories in india every day. At peak rate general dynamics was delivering 30 f16 a month.

Penny packets are suicide vs prc. All we will get is another localized beating and collapse of govt in next election.

Let govt farm out more atags and dhanush production to private players.
rohitvats
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 7830
Joined: 08 Sep 2005 18:24
Location: Jatland

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by rohitvats »

Parallel production order for Dhanush, Mounted Gun System and ATAGS will ensure we can re-equip the army in about 5 years. Same should go for ammunition production.
tsarkar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3263
Joined: 08 May 2006 13:44
Location: mumbai

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by tsarkar »

OFBs go on strike at the smallest of provocations.

April 2017

http://www.patrika.com/news/jabalpur/or ... r-1554066/
जबलपुर। ओटी में कटौती का विरोध, सरकार द्वारा निजीकरण की नीति लागू करने की योजना का विरोध, न्यू पेंशन नीति आदि मांगों को लेकर आयुध निर्माणी के कर्मचारी हड़ताल पर हैं। तीन दिनों से लगातार जारी हड़ताल के कारण निर्माणियों का काम-काज ठप पड़ा है। कर्मचारियों ने चेताया है कि जबतक उनकी मांगों को पूरा नहीं किया जाता, तबतक वे विरोध प्रदर्शन करते रहेंगे।
2016

http://thehitavada.com/Encyc/2016/6/30/ ... ly-11.aspx
Employees’ unions and associations of Ordnance Factory Khamaria (OFK), Gun Carriage Factory (GCF), Vehicle Factory Jabalpur (VFJ), Grey Iron Foundry (GIF), Central Ordnance Depot (COD), 506 Army Base Workshop, Military Engineering Services (MES), West Central Railway Employees Union (WCREW) and several other organizations have declared to stage series of demonstration and nationwide indefinite strike against the seventh pay commission from July 11.
And the largest union, BPMS is part of BMS that is part of RSS extended family, though in my opinion, that helps channelize govt vision better.
Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 20773
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Karan M »

:rotfl: If GOI expands the SP policy beyond the ridiculous two company one, then these jerks will quicklycome to their senses.
Pratyush
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12195
Joined: 05 Mar 2010 15:13

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Pratyush »

Better yet, offer compulsory retirement plan. And then privatise the plants to some local company.
ragupta
BRFite
Posts: 374
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by ragupta »

Vivek K wrote:Guptaji, you made a big statement! That is the crux of the whole saga. We can be self sufficient and produce world beating weapons. So why does that not happen? Who benefits form India's bias for imports? And who loses?
Old habbit die hard. We all know who benefit and benefitted in the past. It is unrealistic and very frustrating if we expect things to change overnight. the best part is things have started to change, and we all hope this is expedited. and the existing legal players can make money through new system, rather than playing spanners in the improvement of system. The crooks in the system and that mentality which is leading to vested interest in the system has to be weeded out. It will happen, but definately all of us who want to see the change have to keep expressing that raising it, to whatever small level of effort it amounts to.

We can keep up our efforts...
Prem
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21233
Joined: 01 Jul 1999 11:31
Location: Weighing and Waiting 8T Yconomy

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Prem »

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/867260783570206720

You might also soon see prototypes of a 155mm/52 caliber mounted gun system developed by the Ordnance Factory Board.
Kakarat
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2225
Joined: 26 Jan 2005 13:59

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Kakarat »

Army to induct 18 Dhanush artillery guns this year
“Six guns have been undergoing battery trials since April. Another round of trials is scheduled in Pokhran this month. All trials are expected to be completed by July, after which it would be ready for induction into the Army,” a senior Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) official told The Hindu.

The Army has placed an initial order for 114 guns. “The first regiment of 18 guns will be inducted in 2017, another 36 guns in 2018 and 60 guns in 2019, completing the initial order,” an Army source said.
srai
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5243
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 11:31

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by srai »

Kakarat wrote:Army to induct 18 Dhanush artillery guns this year
“Six guns have been undergoing battery trials since April. Another round of trials is scheduled in Pokhran this month. All trials are expected to be completed by July, after which it would be ready for induction into the Army,” a senior Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) official told The Hindu.

The Army has placed an initial order for 114 guns. “The first regiment of 18 guns will be inducted in 2017, another 36 guns in 2018 and 60 guns in 2019, completing the initial order,” an Army source said.
Where are the follow-on orders? If the initial orders are going to be completed within the next two years, the follow-on orders must be given soon given that typical lead-times for production are 24 to 36 months. Otherwise, we will see another production line sitting idle after 2019.
kmkraoind
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3908
Joined: 27 Jun 2008 00:24

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by kmkraoind »

Indian Army working on Mega order of Dhanush Artillery guns: Report - IDRW.org
With production rate of Dhanush Artillery guns to touch 60 per annum in 2019, Bulk order fo 300 Guns will require nearly 5 years for completion of the order but Indian Army is reportedly happy with proposed production timelines since major chunk of orders will likely be reserved for 155-mm, 52-calibre towed Advanced Towed Artillery Gun System (ATAGS) artillery gun developed by DRDO with private defence sector companies .
........
large-scale induction and production will commence from 2024 onwards and Army might be inducting nearly 1500 + Guns over a decade which might see first Private Defence Production orders.
suryag
Forum Moderator
Posts: 4041
Joined: 11 Jan 2009 00:14

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by suryag »

this is just tareekh pey taareekh like sunny paaji said, all mega orders are hot air
Gyan
BRFite
Posts: 1596
Joined: 26 Aug 2016 19:14

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Gyan »

Army has shifted goalpost to ATAGS
Kakarat
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2225
Joined: 26 Jan 2005 13:59

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Kakarat »

We should also explore the possibility of Dhanush exports to friendly countries especially Vietnam & Afghanistan. We can have a license production agreement with Vietnam with Important parts like barren getting imported from India
tsarkar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3263
Joined: 08 May 2006 13:44
Location: mumbai

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by tsarkar »

Dhanush orders were always 414,which is more than the holdings of many European nations.

6 have been delivered and remaining 108 will be delivered 2017-2018 (approx 54 per year)

The 300 @ 60 per year is from 2019 to 2024 after which production will shift to ATAGS. This is a great plan with smooth production run and seamless switchover to newer technology. ATAGS gets time to set up subcontractor network and manufacturing facilities.

I personally wish Arjun and truck mounted versions are developed to replace Catapult, etc.

Optimum production run IMO is 100 guns per year with an inventory of 3000 guns in 30 years.
Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Singha »

can atags be towed around the roads like srinagar to leh. i recall reading even the much shorter fh77b needed the towing trucks to do some back and forth in tricky corners in kargil period. are we able to source all necessary spares and ensure the 400 fh77b are all ready for use?

has that road been widened and fixed up for heavier meat like pralay and atags?
tsarkar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3263
Joined: 08 May 2006 13:44
Location: mumbai

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by tsarkar »

Singha wrote:can atags be towed around the roads like srinagar to leh. i recall reading even the much shorter fh77b needed the towing trucks to do some back and forth in tricky corners in kargil period. are we able to source all necessary spares and ensure the 400 fh77b are all ready for use?

has that road been widened and fixed up for heavier meat like pralay and atags?
Yes, using Field Artillery Tractors though there is an increasing tendency to use commercial flatbed trailers that prevent gun carriage wear due to road debris dry ricochet / wet smearing requiring frequent cleaning.

I've seen these flatbed trucks carrying artillery in Mumbai Agra highway. Earlier they would carry only tanks.

The Gun APU is very short ranged to move between gun positions.
manjgu
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2615
Joined: 11 Aug 2006 10:33

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by manjgu »

tsarkar...but our borders/requirements are also much more than European countries !!? I am sure there must be some rationale for the number 414...Even the Bofors contract was for 410 guns IIRC ( with a option to build i think 800 to 1000 more). Not sure how many of Bofors are still in operation? WIll the planned induction of Dhanush/ATGAS etc mean end of lighter guns?
Pratyush
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12195
Joined: 05 Mar 2010 15:13

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Pratyush »

The absence of new 155 mm guns is not really a big issue at a tactical level. As the holding's of 105 and 130 mm guns plus mortars of 81/ 120 mm and above are sufficient for any tactical situation.

The new guns are needed to complete the field arty rationalisation plan of the Indian army.
mody
BRFite
Posts: 1362
Joined: 18 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: Mumbai, India

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by mody »

OFB has already shown a Dhanush-52, a 52 caliber version of Dhanush.
The current plans as they stand are for first order for 45 cal Dhanush for 114 nos. This has already been placed with OFB and as posted above, will probably be delivered by end of 2019.
ATAGS orders will be split between Bharat Forge and Tata SED, with OFB making some components.
Currently two prototypes, 1 each from Bharat Forge and Tata have been produced. The winner will get higher quantity.

Total order quantity of ATAGS to be in the range of 1,500 guns. Total order for Dhanush to be 414 guns. The balance 300 gun is to be placed. It is possible that the balance proposed order for 300 Dhanush guns will be Dhanush-52 guns.
Approximately 800 Truck mounted guns will also be ordered and most likely will be a version ATAGS mounted on Tata trucks.
Tata had already demonstrated a MGS with Denel 155/52 guns on their truck.

The OFB staff at GCF had gone on strike, protesting against the same Tata MGS. The Dhanush guns were ready for trials, but the trials of the same were being delayed. With news of the Tata MGS with Denel guns started coming in, the OFB staff went on strike in protest.

Hopefully, OFB will also be given the order for upgrading the remaining 200-250 odd of the original Bofors guns to Dhanush-45 or Dhanush-52 standard and the ATAGS guns will be given solely to Bharat Forge and Tata SED.
abhik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3090
Joined: 02 Feb 2009 17:42

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by abhik »

On what basis were Tata SED and Kalyani chosen as 'primes' ? We're there others​ in contention, including OFB?
ashishvikas
BRFite
Posts: 852
Joined: 17 Oct 2016 14:18

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by ashishvikas »

Tweets by SJha1618

There has been talk of ordering more than just 23 regiments (18 units a regiment) of OFB's Dhanush 155mm howitzer family.

Some want the final order to be in the 33 regiment range.

Meanwhile @DRDO_India expects to see its production partners get orders for 8 regiments of the ATAGS up front.

With a total order of 50 plus regiments eventually.

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/871727946431696897
rohitvats
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 7830
Joined: 08 Sep 2005 18:24
Location: Jatland

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by rohitvats »

abhik wrote:On what basis were Tata SED and Kalyani chosen as 'primes' ? We're there others​ in contention, including OFB?
Because both had put money into artillery systems much before DRDO came into picture with ATAGS. TATA Power SED with Denel and Bharat Forge with their purchase of Austrian gun. ATAGS has come online in double quick time because of substantial inputs from these two companies. And that's why each of them has been asked to develop a model each.

DRDO collaboration with L&T and TATA Power SED on Pinaka has been a success story. Same model with ATAGS will ensure that the gun is produced in required timeline and with required quality standards.
rohitvats
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 7830
Joined: 08 Sep 2005 18:24
Location: Jatland

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by rohitvats »

Hope this talk of ordering more Dhanush is true. And between order for 33 Regiments of Dhanush and 50 Regiments of ATAGS, IA will fill about 1,500 guns order. Now, someone please develop a Dhanush based MGS in double quick time.
abhik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3090
Joined: 02 Feb 2009 17:42

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by abhik »

rohitvats wrote:
abhik wrote:On what basis were Tata SED and Kalyani chosen as 'primes' ? We're there others​ in contention, including OFB?
Because both had put money into artillery systems much before DRDO came into picture with ATAGS. TATA Power SED with Denel and Bharat Forge with their purchase of Austrian gun. ATAGS has come online in double quick time because of substantial inputs from these two companies. And that's why each of them has been asked to develop a model each.

DRDO collaboration with L&T and TATA Power SED on Pinaka has been a success story. Same model with ATAGS will ensure that the gun is produced in required timeline and with required quality standards.
Any sources or links?
tsarkar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3263
Joined: 08 May 2006 13:44
Location: mumbai

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by tsarkar »

abhik wrote:
rohitvats wrote:
Because both had put money into artillery systems much before DRDO came into picture with ATAGS. TATA Power SED with Denel and Bharat Forge with their purchase of Austrian gun. ATAGS has come online in double quick time because of substantial inputs from these two companies. And that's why each of them has been asked to develop a model each.

DRDO collaboration with L&T and TATA Power SED on Pinaka has been a success story. Same model with ATAGS will ensure that the gun is produced in required timeline and with required quality standards.
Any sources or links?
You may Google up news for what Rohit said.

To add to what Rohit said, they spent time in acquiring know how and knowledge of industrial manufacturing - that is very tough because of technology denial and (then) restrictive GoI policies. This knowledge helped DRDO develop two prototypes of ATAGS quickly and should help expediting manufacturing - unlike the challenges faced by HAL in ramping up Tejas production.
tsarkar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3263
Joined: 08 May 2006 13:44
Location: mumbai

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by tsarkar »

Most people see QRSAM or other systems photos and think all is hunky dory not realising setting up production and quality control is a bigger beast to tame. These are specialised fields by themselves as important as R&D. Before Pinaka, Akash & Dhruv, no one paid interest to them and overtime was deemed more important. The pains in productionizing these would fill a whole book.
Marten
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2176
Joined: 01 Jan 2010 21:41
Location: Engaging Communists, Uber-Socialists, Maoists, and other pro-poverty groups in fruitful dialog.

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Marten »

tsarkar wrote:Most people see QRSAM or other systems photos and think all is hunky dory not realising setting up production and quality control is a bigger beast to tame. These are specialised fields by themselves as important as R&D. Before Pinaka, Akash & Dhruv, no one paid interest to them and overtime was deemed more important. The pains in productionizing these would fill a whole book.
Sir, it would be good to learn about the productionizing issues typically faced on new products (be they eventually successful or not). Would you mind taking one product (other than Dhruv which has been covered very well by several folks) and helping us understand how both users and production teams have to adapt to eventually succeed?
Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 20773
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Karan M »

Given the quantum of programs we have successfully productionized, QRSAM won't be a huge challenge of the order of LCA. Plus all the usual pvt & public sector suspects will be involved. Plus one dude who always manages to get the groom high on weed, slapped by the bride and get it caught on camera. OFB..
Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Singha »

at any cost we must get ngarm, saaw, garud+amma, nirbhay, astra mk1, A5, brahmos-A, helina sorted out and productionzed in VOLUME in the next 5 yrs. and the astra mk2, akash-ng, qrsam, brahmos-M in the next slot of 5-10 yrs.

whichever size of boot needs to be applied, whatever funds and resources need to be thrown at the problems, whatever be the summer temp 20C or 60C, however many 1:1 browbeating sessions with Namo needed ...
abhik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3090
Joined: 02 Feb 2009 17:42

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by abhik »

OFB had the Dhanush in testing by the time ATAGS started, plus the Tata gun uses OFB barrel, so I don't see how OFB was at a disadvantage compared to the private players.
tsarkar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3263
Joined: 08 May 2006 13:44
Location: mumbai

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by tsarkar »

Marten wrote:
tsarkar wrote:Most people see QRSAM or other systems photos and think all is hunky dory not realising setting up production and quality control is a bigger beast to tame. These are specialised fields by themselves as important as R&D. Before Pinaka, Akash & Dhruv, no one paid interest to them and overtime was deemed more important. The pains in productionizing these would fill a whole book.
Sir, it would be good to learn about the productionizing issues typically faced on new products (be they eventually successful or not). Would you mind taking one product (other than Dhruv which has been covered very well by several folks) and helping us understand how both users and production teams have to adapt to eventually succeed?
Hello Marten, Pinaka is a great example with 2+2+6+12 regiments, eventually replacing Grad and Smerch, with DRDO, OFB, L&T, Tata and IA working together to evolve and expand rocket production from 1000 a year to 5000 a year. A detailed story needs time to put together, so I'll ask for some time until the weekend.

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 852579.cms
Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 20773
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Karan M »

Singha wrote:at any cost we must get ngarm, saaw, garud+amma, nirbhay, astra mk1, A5, brahmos-A, helina sorted out and productionzed in VOLUME in the next 5 yrs. and the astra mk2, akash-ng, qrsam, brahmos-M in the next slot of 5-10 yrs.

whichever size of boot needs to be applied, whatever funds and resources need to be thrown at the problems, whatever be the summer temp 20C or 60C, however many 1:1 browbeating sessions with Namo needed ...
Your thoughts to Modi's ear.
rohitvats
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 7830
Joined: 08 Sep 2005 18:24
Location: Jatland

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by rohitvats »

abhik wrote:OFB had the Dhanush in testing by the time ATAGS started, plus the Tata gun uses OFB barrel, so I don't see how OFB was at a disadvantage compared to the private players.
Which TATA gun uses which OFB barrel? ATAGS is independent of Dhanush system. TATA had demonstrated MGS based on Denel T5 155/52 caliber some time back. Both BF and TATA are most likely using DRDO developed barrel for their respective prototypes.
rohitvats
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 7830
Joined: 08 Sep 2005 18:24
Location: Jatland

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by rohitvats »

tsarkar wrote: Hello Marten, Pinaka is a great example with 2+2+6+12 regiments, eventually replacing Grad and Smerch, with DRDO, OFB, L&T, Tata and IA working together to evolve and expand rocket production from 1000 a year to 5000 a year. A detailed story needs time to put together, so I'll ask for some time until the weekend.<SNIP>
Actually, Pinaka system clearly shows what is the Achilles heel of defense production in India - OFB.

DRDO developed a system, transferred it to private sector (L&T and TATA Power SED) and production of the system was a success all the way. IA had asked for this structure.

Now, comes the OFB. Cannot produce the rockets in desired numbers. Has quality issues with the rockets. And PROPELLANT.

See this September 2016 report. Don't bother about the SMERCH nonsense but see how OFB has screwed up rocket production.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city ... 991553.cms

This is why IA is vary of anything and everything that comes from OFB stable. Give the order to a private entity like L&T and I'm sure problems will be resolved. Or won't arise to begin with.

Half the bad name which DRDO gets is because of shoddy production by OFB.
Manish_P
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5413
Joined: 25 Mar 2010 17:34

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Manish_P »

Several times i am thankful to Tsarkar and Rohitvats for bringing a factual balance to the discussions.

In frustrated angst, it is easy to quickly put blame on either end of the spectrum - either the designer (DRDO, ADA et al) or the end-user (the armed forces), completely forgetting that there are many other links in between - ministeries, babus, production, storeage, logistics and what not.
GopiD
BRFite
Posts: 146
Joined: 18 Jul 2011 14:57

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by GopiD »

rohitvats wrote:
tsarkar wrote: Hello Marten, Pinaka is a great example with 2+2+6+12 regiments, eventually replacing Grad and Smerch, with DRDO, OFB, L&T, Tata and IA working together to evolve and expand rocket production from 1000 a year to 5000 a year. A detailed story needs time to put together, so I'll ask for some time until the weekend.<SNIP>
Actually, Pinaka system clearly shows what is the Achilles heel of defense production in India - OFB.

DRDO developed a system, transferred it to private sector (L&T and TATA Power SED) and production of the system was a success all the way. IA had asked for this structure.

Now, comes the OFB. Cannot produce the rockets in desired numbers. Has quality issues with the rockets. And PROPELLANT.

See this September 2016 report. Don't bother about the SMERCH nonsense but see how OFB has screwed up rocket production.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city ... 991553.cms

This is why IA is vary of anything and everything that comes from OFB stable. Give the order to a private entity like L&T and I'm sure problems will be resolved. Or won't arise to begin with.

Half the bad name which DRDO gets is because of shoddy production by OFB.

I had a chaiwala in OFB, qualified as a lawyer but employed in ammunition testing :roll:
Seems like the OFB chaps would often bypass production processes to save time and sneak out during the extra time on hand to do their own house-hold chores (don't think all of them did it). He would quote like 80% failure rate of propellants in many production lots.

Spoke to the chaiwala a month back and was informed of the impending privatisation of four OFB factories. I googled this at that time, but couldn't find any source, but turned out to be true after a month :lol:
Seems like the OFB chaps are mighty upset. They are claiming national security compromise due to privatisation :rotfl:
Kakarat
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2225
Joined: 26 Jan 2005 13:59

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Kakarat »

Video of trials of M-777 that recently arrived in India

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18259
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Rakesh »

^^^^
Guess what the Artillery Corps is doing right now?

Indian Army Conducts Field Trial Of Newly Acquired M777 Howitzer In Pokhran
https://swarajyamag.com/insta/indian-ar ... in-pokhran

Think about this for a second. We just bought a foreign howitzer and are now field testing it. And what about our desi howitzers? We field tested them first and then placed orders. This is like the joke I once heard.

Q. What is the difference between a Regular man and Superman?
A. Regular Man wears his underwear first and then his pants. Superman wears his pants first and then wears his underwear.

We are Superman! :)

Image
sum
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10195
Joined: 08 May 2007 17:04
Location: (IT-vity && DRDO) nagar

Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by sum »

I had read that these are just range calibration rounds in the plains and trials were done in mountains before ordering (since they are intented for the mountains) .
Locked