Indian Military Helicopters

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Kakkaji
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Kakkaji » 24 May 2017 20:53

+1008 to Dr. Shiv on screwdriver-giri.

You start with screwdriver-giri and work your way up to to riveter-giri to welder-giri to fabricator-giri to designer-giri.

Just like in IT, the good IT companies start with body-shopping and work their way up to project outsourcing to product design.

JMHO

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby putnanja » 25 May 2017 07:45

There is another big issue with reverse engineering. The first few copies will be very inferior to the originals, any of the chinese cheap copies of aircraft, submarines etc are testimony to that. However, since the chinese armed forces had no alternative, they accepted it and continued to iterate on it.

Key requirement is that the first few versions will be worse, but users need to accept it and designers need to keep iterating on it. There needs to be a mentality change among users, government, R&D etc. The government needs to keep funding it. If users reject it saying the reverse engineered version is a decade behind the original, govt will stop funding it as armed forces rejected it. The project will hit a dead end.

That's why its easier to get small subcomponents reverse engineered, than entire systems. And most of the times, users call for reverse engineering/substitutes when the OEM stops supplying parts!

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Singha » 26 May 2017 05:23

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_ ... 8735715310

Video of cm fadnavis heli crash. Can anyone explain reason

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Prithwiraj » 26 May 2017 05:51

Singha wrote:https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10158835583380311&id=218735715310

Video of cm fadnavis heli crash. Can anyone explain reason


Looks like it hit the powerline --- with such level of dust... can't blame the pilot

ramana
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby ramana » 26 May 2017 05:54

And lot of wind was there at take off.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Cosmo_R » 26 May 2017 06:06

shiv wrote:
chola wrote:
Nope, the production patent buys of the Dauphin and Super Frelon are well documented.

Where is the documentation? Or at least a commentary by someone who has looked at it. Confident assertions should be easy to prove.


There appear to be some hints here
https://www.safran.cn/en/file/download/en_mag1.pdf

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Prithwiraj » 26 May 2017 06:09

ramana wrote:And lot of wind was there at take off.

The wind was rotorwash

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby shiv » 26 May 2017 06:19

ramana wrote:And lot of wind was there at take off.

The wind appeared to be downwash. It seems to have hit a powerline - though I can't figure out why the helo did not gain altitude - Oh OK it gains altitude and then loses power and descends - there is also some rotation as might happen if a tail rotor is kaput

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Singha » 26 May 2017 09:08

I heard bhuj is 45c..latur is likely to be similar. Maybe the payload was too much for the derating of engine or it packed up under the strain. Could easily have been fatal due to power line and any fuel tank rupture

Helipads need to be concrete with adequate clear areas. Netas swooping into school playgrounds hastily prepared is not great.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby shiv » 26 May 2017 10:50

^^Must mention - that is an imported helicopter. I can only imagine the massive self flagellation on here and in the media if it had been a Dhruv. But now - not a chirp...

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Austin » 26 May 2017 10:54

The pilot mentioned in a news interview that there was issue with Engine as soon as he took off and he wanted to land immediately .....It seems 15 days back the same chopper had engine issue and had to be grounded for maintenance at short notice and CM had to do road travel through naxal area , The chopper is some 6 years old

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby sankum » 26 May 2017 17:06

JayS, In LCH HAL has increased take off to 5.8T, so it can be taken that for Dhruv MTOW has been raised to 5.8T.

For naval version category Cat A performance i.e, safe take off with one engine operative with old engine was 5.3T which can be expected to be raised to 5.8T with Shakti engine.

If the MTOW is more than 6T then it is news but then empty weight also has to go up.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby chola » 26 May 2017 18:49

Cosmo_R wrote:
shiv wrote:Where is the documentation? Or at least a commentary by someone who has looked at it. Confident assertions should be easy to prove.


There appear to be some hints here
https://www.safran.cn/en/file/download/en_mag1.pdf



Also more suggestions here:
http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/2006-11-15/eurocopter-partnership-boosts-chinese-helo-biz

It talks about history of Eurocopter's projects with Cheen in relations to the then new Z-11 and Z-15 projects. There is nothing that suggests any tension from breaches of contract like reverse engineering or modification.

I doubt we can find a printout of the chini-frenchi contract. I would probably need to search in Chinese or French. lol

Even if the chini reverse engineered the Z-9 and Z-8, the PRC received no punishment and in fact continues to enjoy more joint ventures with the Euros. It is the same way with the J-11/Sukhoi-27. PRC makes a ton of aircraft of many variants and still gets all the goodies of engines, JVs, etc. for new projects.

Whether it is contract negotiations or blatant copying (why the hell not do it of there is no punishment), there is something amiss when our institutions are straitjacketed after these screwdrivergiri arrangements and those of the PRC's allowed to run free with someone else's designs.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Singha » 26 May 2017 19:01

I think they paid billions under table or in preferential civil projects to get the modding rights.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby chola » 26 May 2017 19:46

Singha wrote:I think they paid billions under table or in preferential civil projects to get the modding rights.


That is the same as using leverage during negotiation.

We really should do the same. We have a billion-person market and fastest growing economy in the world to leverage for goodness' sakes. In the long term full TOT (meaning real ownership of the design) builds out your industrial base and create permanent skilled jobs.

It is the perfect case of "penny wise, pound foolish" to keep doing single-run subcontracting (it is not ToT when you are restricted on usage of the design) if it is because of expenditure.

Either go cheap and import fully assembled products or pay more for full control of the production patents. Screwing together pre-built components under restrictions to numbers, modification or even repair/overhaul is not transfer of technology. It is just subcontracting or transfer of workload. Whatever the f.ck the PRC is doing, I want for Bharat.

Because it makes no sense to me that even though we have 70% of the MKI localized (including engine) we cannot make anything else flankerwise with all the toolings and processes in place. Maybe national security and development is more important than adhering to some bullsh1t stipulations on paper, which as the PRC has shown, probably won't have much consequences if broken.

And the first thing I want is a dedicated engine-testbed variant of our Indi-Flanker. -- desi produced AL-31 in one nacelle, a test engine, say Kaveri, in the other :D

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Indranil » 26 May 2017 20:42

HAL's RWRDC is revisiting a ALH Dhruv with surveillance radar for the Navy. The system will add approximately 80 kg to the empty weight. The radar will be mounted in the nose and have a primary role of searching for targets in SAR, ISAR & MTI classification modes. The secondary roles include weather avoidance and navigation mode with real beam mapping. Radar would have an useful angle of atleast ± 90° in Azimuth in the forward sector
with a maximum range in excess of 100 nm.

The helicopter will also have a 12.7 mm gun mounted in the cabin.

These copters are most likely going to be used for search and rescue and coast guard roles.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Singha » 26 May 2017 21:00

Chola the user also has to be captive and interested ...

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby shiv » 27 May 2017 07:35

chola wrote:It talks about history of Eurocopter's projects with Cheen in relations to the then new Z-11 and Z-15 projects. There is nothing that suggests any tension from breaches of contract like reverse engineering or modification.

I doubt we can find a printout of the chini-frenchi contract. I would probably need to search in Chinese or French. lol

Even if the chini reverse engineered the Z-9 and Z-8, the PRC received no punishment and in fact continues to enjoy more joint ventures with the Euros. It is the same way with the J-11/Sukhoi-27. PRC makes a ton of aircraft of many variants and still gets all the goodies of engines, JVs, etc. for new projects.

I don't disagree with the idea that copying should be done and blatantly, and there are other examples of the Chinese buying two examples of something like a reconnaissance pod with an intent to order 200 of them - having the supplier slobbering - followed by lack of orders after 2 were supplied and the appearance of copies 2-3 years later.

The consequence of copying is in failures and lack of reliability that we don't know about and the Chinese do not reveal. The only way to find out how reliable or unreliable a copy is - is simply to copy and see what happens. This has been essential for India in certain cases - as shown by what the BRDs do. But as far as I can tell - what happens with India is that if component X is unavailable from an OEM there are 20 other small companies abroad willing to offer the same component. So the incentive to set up a new line for components that are importable off the shelf is simply not there.

The example I quoted of Chinese ball-point pens using imported ball bearings is a case in point. Some non Chinese ball bearing manufacturer has been happy to supply the Chinese for decades while the Chinese discovered that their own reverse engineered ball bearings for pens were just not up to the mark. So the news now appears that the Chinese are going to set up a research unit to produce high quality ball bearings for ball-point pens and put the OEM out of business. The idea is good (for China) but it shows that reverse engineering is not as successful as it is made out to be - unless alternative suppliers supply quality parts. That is what China has surely been doing - importing quality component from high tech manufacturers for Grade A products and selling cheap unreliable "Grade B" products copied from the originals. As long as external suppliers exist this is feasible. The price China pays is the inability to break into real high tech markets for aircraft, radar etc - while B grade nations buy their knockoffs.

As I see it - the West and Russia sell to everyone, and China with its copies is trying to break in at the "low end" for nations who can;t afford much and will accept low quality and reliability in exchange for capability. India is neither here nor there - we have to follow a path that offers western reliability at China like prices.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby sankum » 27 May 2017 17:19

Indranil for ASW version of Dhruv the above radar will do or 360 degree coverage will be developed?

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Indranil » 27 May 2017 18:03

I think the desi ASW will have to wait for the IMRH. We might possibly see an Indian radar on the same too.

Another aspect that HAL should seriously look into is to come up with a hybrid helicopter. Such a helicopter would be great for a variety of roles including ASW. In my opinion, that is a much more worthwhile project than designing an ab initio amphibian.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby sankum » 27 May 2017 18:35

I just read the RFP for ALH radar.

Intergration with sonar sensors diagram is given and the total order is for 42 radar sets for 32nos for CG and IN helicopter on order and may be 10 nos for old IN and CG helos or just spares.

It is confirmed that no 360 degree surveillance is envisaged and we will see this only on naval IMRH.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby sankum » 27 May 2017 23:51

I think that the 100nos NLUH requirement is redundant in face of more capable Dhruv Helo ASW variant order which will go on next gen ASW corvette also.

The NLUH was to be equipped with small weather radar with secondary sea surveillance capability and no sonar capability while ASW Dhruv is to be equipped with primary surveillance radar with secondary weather radar capability and sonar capability.

CAG report also said of the required ability to remove ASW equipment from Dhruv in half hour and convert to utility role for swing role capability.

19 Dhruv in CG and 23 Dhruvs in IN by 2021 i.e, 42 nos with state of art radar will cover the lack of naval helicopters to a significant extent.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby srai » 28 May 2017 01:57

^^^
Haven't quite understood the rational for NLUH tender when an N-ALH would do the same roles better. The IN used a similar point to make a case for a larger NMRH ASW because the N-ALH was too small for the role :)

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Last edited by srai on 28 May 2017 02:11, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby titash » 28 May 2017 02:07

sankum wrote:I just read the RFP for ALH radar.

Intergration with sonar sensors diagram is given and the total order is for 42 radar sets for 32nos for CG and IN helicopter on order and may be 10 nos for old IN and CG helos or just spares.

It is confirmed that no 360 degree surveillance is envisaged and we will see this only on naval IMRH.


sankum-ji, pliss to post the url for said RFP. Thanks 8)

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby sankum » 28 May 2017 12:21


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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby sankum » 28 May 2017 13:04

After supply of 3 development sets production run for 42nos.


2.3.2 Production Phase : 2.3.2.1 The total production requirement is approximately about 42 Sets of SURVEILLANCE RADAR SYSTEM spread over a period of ~ 4 years after successful completion of development phase of project based on receipt of orders from customers. The tentative production program schedule is given below:

*Year of delivery 2018-19 2019-20 2020-21 2021-22
*Total Quantity in Sets. 6(4+2**) 19((16+3**) 14(12+2**) 3**

**- Indicates Surveillance Radar System without connectors

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby titash » 29 May 2017 05:03

sankum wrote:ALH radar tender


Thanks sankum-ji...this clears up a lot of speculation.

"Surveillance Radar Integration could be either through MIL-STD-1553B Mission
Bus to IADS or can be a standalone system with display integrated with DMC. In
both the options, it is required to display radar video in the display unit of Sonar
system which will be in the cabin in a few helicopters. The common keyboard /
joystick in the cabin would be used for controls of Radar also. There would be a
switch on the common keyboard which will toggle the cabin control and display
between Radar and Sonar."

The 16 IN Dhruvs will be equipped with the LFDS dipping SONAR as well as the surveillance radar. Looks like HAL has finally gotten around the 3 constraints that prevented the Dhruv from being carried onboard smaller warships:
(1) Vibration issues resolved
(2) folding rotor blades issues resolved
(3) payload & endurance apparently aren't that much of an issues given that the Westland Lynx and Augusta Bell AB212 are of similar or smaller dimensions...also helped by the fact that the 123 NMRHs (SeaHawk or NH-90 don't come cheap)

This should go a long way to mitigate the empty helipads on all out dual-hangar frigates and destroyers.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby jayasimha » 29 May 2017 15:50

http://www.tribuneindia.com/news/nation ... 07714.html

Indigenous black boxes for Mi-17s

The Air Force’s Russian built Mi-17 helicopters will soon be equipped with indigenously developed electronic black boxes in place of the existing older technology. These helicopters will also be fitted with underwater locator beacons (ULB).

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Rishi_Tri » 29 May 2017 21:33

jayasimha wrote:http://www.tribuneindia.com/news/nation/indigenous-black-boxes-for-mi-17s/407714.html

Indigenous black boxes for Mi-17s

The Air Force’s Russian built Mi-17 helicopters will soon be equipped with indigenously developed electronic black boxes in place of the existing older technology. These helicopters will also be fitted with underwater locator beacons (ULB).


Fab news this. Still remember a talk in one of my earlier firms by a US returned engineer who had designed black boxes, offered them for testing to armed forces but the proposal was lying around. Do hope his equipment was tested and found to be airworthy.


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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Rishi_Tri » 08 Jun 2017 19:49

From the above article --

"Having designed the helicopter, there is very little else that HAL has on its table, except setting up manufacturing facilities. Even the avionics of the IMRH will be imported," said Vijainder Thakur, a defense analyst and retired Indian Air Force squadron leader, referring to the Indian Multi-Role Helicopter.

Very casual comments.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby tsarkar » 08 Jun 2017 21:25

^^ That's a hit job article. No helicopter manufacturer makes engines or avionics - they source it from specialised suppliers.

Members need to do a sanity check before posting such hit job articles

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby ramana » 08 Jun 2017 23:13

tsarkar, I too felt the same on initial reading.
I say its hit job for the HAL has done the sizing design and is looking for the components to finalize the design.
That is how its done when you don't have engine development.
The Mi-17 blackboxes can be used for the IMRH or spiral development.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Pratyush » 09 Jun 2017 07:45

The points are identical to the criticism received by every domestic program. So as such nothing unique.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Gyan » 09 Jun 2017 09:38

The problem is that HAL made no attempt to indigenise ALH components in last 30 years and only has a fake JV for imported Shakti Engine. After a poster from HAL claimed that HAL is manufacturing Shakti Engine, he has disappeared without posting any info. HAL is only manfactering the tank for coolant of Shakti Engine from imported components. The value addition is less than 1%. Apache may be more Indian component wise than ALH.
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Reason: Warned for trolling and personal attacks. Banned for two weeks.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby JTull » 09 Jun 2017 13:52

Gyan wrote: Apache may be more Indian component wise than ALH.


Hit job alert!

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Cybaru » 09 Jun 2017 23:43

AGyan wrote:The problem is that HAL made no attempt to indigenise ALH components in last 30 years and only has a fake JV for imported Shakti Engine. After a poster from HAL claimed that HAL is manufacturing Shakti Engine, he has disappeared without posting any info. HAL is only manfactering the tank for coolant of Shakti Engine from imported components. The value addition is less than 1%. Apache may be more Indian component wise than ALH.



:rotfl: Aren't you full of it! Trolling again?

"Apache may be more Indian component wise than ALH"?? Please do enlighten on how your calculation works...

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Surya » 10 Jun 2017 00:58

Dont feed the troll

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby ramana » 11 Jun 2017 12:15


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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Gyan » 11 Jun 2017 13:03

Apache fuselage is manufactured in India the same as ALH. All other components of ALH including seats are imported and yes, some components of ALH transmission are made in India. Wooo ALH wins narrowly.


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