MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 12 Jun 2017 07:22

As I posted long before as long as Babus of MoD are forced to buy Indian systems, there will not MII for armed forces. It is not IA or IAF that is the problem. It is the Babus that are the problem and lack of political leadership in MoD for decades. Even the mess in OFB of DPSUs all due to that only. MP return to Goa is a major tragic event from the national security angle.

Almost all IA systems can be now made in India. So why not simply go ahead and say no system required for IA can be imported at all. At least at the whole system level, iniitially and all the spares etc are to be Indegionised say within 3 years of the start of initial prodoction. Unless babus are forced they will not take any steps.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 12 Jun 2017 08:04

Marten wrote:China (PA) commits to orders for its products and works on making things work.

I erred in bringing China into the picture - because it is always a mixed bag. The Chinese have a long history of placing potential orders with foreign companies and then backing out after taking delivery of one or two examples for cloning. They did this with a European helicopter EO-sensor and with the Su-33. But in both cases the Chinese acknowledged that they could not make it in house and admitted to themselves that they would need to clone/copy. many of their copies have failed - and some quite miserably. But we don't know anything about the downstream effects of that on their armed forces.

In the case of both Arjun (transmission) and Dhruv (composite rotor blades) the items were supplied by PSUs to the armed forces as if they would be able to deliver on demand. But "delivering on demand" means army places order and Avadi delivers. It should not mean "Army places order. Avadi places sub-order with German company. German company gives a date for delivery and delivers after some time gap. Avadi then builds a tank and delivers to army"

Avadi/DRDO need to say up front to the army "If your transmission goes you are fuked because spares need to come from Germany". I don't think they have been transparent here. Or else they could say "Transmission needs to be pre-ordered from Germany- so please pay for 2 extra transmission sets for every 5 tanks we deliver" They are not doing this either.

The fantastic logistics/spares system that the US has is something we can learn. I am sure we are beginning to understand their efficiency from C-130 and C-17. But are our PSUs getting exposed to these practices? Another eye opener for me (but OT for this thread) is the fact that the OFBs much vaunted "made-in-India = so much value" was for lowest tech items like army/NCC uniforms etc. Not for manufactured hardware. Finally Goi has told them that this tailoring stuff can be done by others - OFB need not claim greatness for that.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 12 Jun 2017 08:07

Yagnasri wrote: Almost all IA systems can be now made in India.

We are not making transmission systems but we make metal plates, rubber pads, seat covers and uniforms. Let some low tech private industry do the uniforms/rubber pads bit and let PSUs collaborate with high tech industry to develop transmission systems. We are frigging providing employment to Germans while these PSUs claim that they are delivering but army is screwing them.

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 12 Jun 2017 08:42

Shivji, my mango view is they "can be made". We are of course not making them now. But we have the capability to make most of the things we need at least for IA. But as long as we are allowing ourselves captives of imports or OFB/DPSU gangs we can not do any MII.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 12 Jun 2017 09:07

Yagnasri wrote:Shivji, my mango view is they "can be made". We are of course not making them now. But we have the capability to make most of the things we need at least for IA. But as long as we are allowing ourselves captives of imports or OFB/DPSU gangs we can not do any MII.

I agree that they can be made. But there will be failures and tears shed because gearboxes are a problem item- high-tech-fancy materials -high wear and tear. That means that if we want a tank gearbox in 10 years - we must start today. OK it may take less time or there may be some private player who has the capability. But searching and coordination must start now.

For example - the high speed pumps used for cryo stage of GSLV need to turn at insane speeds at ridiculously low temperatures - and someone seems to be producing that in India. OTOH there are companies producing pumps and stuff for Arihant to work at insane high temperatures. BEML has been "producing" earthmovers for a while. Do they not do gearboxes at all. Also L&T. HAL has done an LCA gearbox. Is there no one to make a gearbox for Arjun or a future tank? Why does Avadi have to import and keep on importing?

Or is the problem for Arjun even worse - in that they have designed the entire system around an imported gearbox and there is no scope for replacement without exact cloning. I would see that as a dead end for Arjun

srai · Post by **srai** » 13 Jun 2017 05:40

^^^

All future deals (and retroactively applied to existing deals) should use Performance-Based Logistics (PBL) methodology. This would require careful monitoring and logging of usage data for all parts/components in various field conditions. From that detailed data, it would be possible for the manufacturer and maintenance depots to guarantee a certain level of desired fleet availability through stocking up on the right amount of inventory and timely orders/manufacture of parts/components as well as regular/preventative servicing. Source of those components, whether foreign or indigenous, would be less relevant if PBL is properly executed.

Kakkaji · Post by **Kakkaji** » 13 Jun 2017 06:23

Hakeem Saheb

The DRDO has been asking for a minimum order of 500 for the Arjun project to be viable. Had the army given firm orders for 500-1,000 to be delivered in tranches, then it is likely that all components including gearbox would have been progressively indigenized.

It is truly a chicken and egg situation in this case

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 13 Jun 2017 06:32

shiv wrote:
Yagnasri wrote: Almost all IA systems can be now made in India.
We are not making transmission systems but we make metal plates, rubber pads, seat covers and uniforms. Let some low tech private industry do the uniforms/rubber pads bit and let PSUs collaborate with high tech industry to develop transmission systems. We are frigging providing employment to Germans while these PSUs claim that they are delivering but army is screwing them.

+1. The PSUs offer a prototype with admitted flaws and promise a production ready model if 500 units are ordered to make it economically viable. These guys are reinventing market economics.

It's a laugh on par with Air India promising to be a profitable high service airline.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 13 Jun 2017 07:33

There was one Aero India talk video posted many years ago that spoke specifically of developments with respect to the Astra missile. the gist was that they would break the necessary components for the missile into separate categories and examine if each and every one of them could be made in India with low risk. The "risk" part is important because you can look at a part and say "Yes we can make this" or "No we need to import". But when we say "yes we can make it" the next questions would be "Are we already doing it? Would we have to develop it from scratch? Would it work? Would it be reliable? Would it be rugged? Accurate? Sensitive? easily reproducible? etc Answers to these questions are an indicator of the amount of risk there is.

If you break up a tank into parts you could get
1. Body armour: made in India
2. Gun - possibly made in India
3. Engine - imported, built under licence
4. Transmission: imported
5. Tracks - Indian
6. Wheels: Indian
7. Basic instruments and sensors - Indian
8. IR viewer, gun aiming system, electronics for slaving gun to gunsight, gun stabilization servo controls - probably imported (don't know)
9. Seats, upholstery - Indian
10. Air conditioning Indian
11. Radio/comm - possibly Indian
12. Countermeasures/munitions: partly Indian/partly imported?

If the above list is accurate then the Arjun is a disaster. Some of the most critical, difficult to make, difficult to design and failure prone stuff is imported. How can you stock up spares if you don't know how many will fail

Out of 124 Arjun tanks - how many transmission systems will fail? 2? 10? 40? 85? How many do you order. In an order of 1000 tanks - would you pre-order 20 extra transmissions? What if 100 of them fail? If so many critical parts have to be ordered from abroad and put on the waiting list of some foreign manufacturer how can the army hope to maintain a fighting fleet of tanks. Heck the news report says that 80 Arjuns had transmission failures and the lament is that "Only 124 were ordered." With that record we would have 600 out of 1000 failing.

The Arjun was a risk, like Tejas. The Tejas just made it through despite being higher tech. There may have been some serious planning and coordination gaps between Air Force and ADA/HAL but they were addressed. Similar gaps between army and Avadi were simply not managed well at all. Sad but that is what it appears to me like.

Nowadays - with great active tank protection systems coming in we may need to start looking at a new tank altogether. To me it appears that the Arjun is on the brink of being consigned to a bit-role in history. Not because it is a bad tank. It's one of the best in the world - but it's problems do not appear to be easily solvable if they need imports of critical parts

srai · Post by **srai** » 13 Jun 2017 10:17

^^^

Well ... the same can be said of T-90, Su-30MKI, Rafale, etc. It has more to do with "poor" lifecycle support/management.

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 13 Jun 2017 11:02

in the long run there is no substitute to developing ur own stuff ...engines..transmissions..avionics..etc etc..if u want truly to be considered a big boy !!

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 13 Jun 2017 11:44

"In the long run..." In India the long run for desi defence systems,it is as long as a marathon! Sibnce BRF's inception,I've bene crying out for the GOI to establish a dedicated design centre for engines for def. applications for all 3 services.GTRE has been an disaster,unable to even perfect the KaveriI know an industrialist who manufactured a key high-tech component,with a little moolah from it (we don't have this tech in India,zealously guarded by firang engine manufacturers),but has never been given any orders and thus he cannot sell what his ingenuity has developed even abroad becos of the pltry funding he got and the agreement.This saps the desire of pvt. entities from getting involved. Another group,sell their wares abroad happily which returns to India in firang systems that we import.He had a stall at an Aero-India ,atttracting much attention from our boffins,but have stopped doing so .The CMan of this group says that the DROI is "all talk.." and he is fed up even after supplying them with other items for decades.

These are specialist entities.However,the corporate majors like L&T,Tatas,R .co.Mahindras,etc.,have lobbied hard despite DPSU resistance to get a piece of the pie,and thanks to the enlightened govt. at the moment,decisions as one reads almost daily,have finally brought the pt. sector majors for a start into the "defence manufacturing tent" ,formerly the exclusive privilege of the DPSUs.

To my mind,Arjun has two fatal flaws.A 4 man crew-when the bulk of the IA's armour is 3-man MBTs,leading to excessive weight,etc., and its cost because of it being much larger and heavier than the T-series and that it has much imported content. Other factors as spelt out in the above posts-self-defence systems,passive and active,larger gun/missile requirements,etc.,as seen in new MBTs like the Armata,have raised the bar for any future MBT for the IA. The Q now is ,how many more A-2s can the IA afford to acquire,salvaging much of the expenditure of the CVRDE in its development. One is sure though that many of the items of tech developed for Arjun can be shoehorned into a new futuristic MBT with a 3-an crew. As we're doing for the P-75I progrgamme,BMos,etc.,there is no harm in even searching for an intl. partner in a JV who can deliver the same.

Marten · Post by **Marten** » 13 Jun 2017 11:51

>> my mind,Arjun has two fatal flaws.A 4 man crew-when the bulk of the IA's armour is 3-man MBTs,leading to excessive weight,etc., and its cost because of it being much larger and heavier than the T-series.
Are you saying IA DGMF is incapable of distinguishing what a fatal flaw would be for a tank? Or are you saying they made a mistake setting Specifications for a 4 man tank when they really wanted a 3 man tank, and then continued spending time and energies suggesting improvements when they really really needed a 3 man tank that was as light as the Tincan? Very confusing, Philip.

geeth · Post by **geeth** » 13 Jun 2017 11:52

Unlike the LCA program where many of the imported items were sanction prone, imports for Arjun were not so. Why, because it were not so high tech. For eg., the transmission..for us it may be high tech..but may not be for goras. Walchandnagar Industries make the gear box for warships, ofcourse under licence. This 'under licence' is often semi knocked down kits. So no knowlegde gained. We can safely assume any propeller shaft worth mentioning is all imported..so are propellers.

The Godavari Class 'indigenous' warships had representation from almost all countries of UN. American Satnav, French Log, Italian torpedos, British Sonar, Swiss Gearbox, british (licenced) boilers, pumps, German turbines...The list is long.

Why the MTU was selected for Arjun? Because Admiral Nada's company Globetech were their Indian agents..and they sold MTU engines to Navy also.

Though the initial plan was to import few emgines for development till Indian engine for Arjun was ready, babus and PSU wallas never pursued this goal, partly due to money involved, chalta hai attitude and also lack of expertise. But expertise come when to take the initiative and do it yourselves. There was lack of initiative, babus were unwilling to burn money on research and there is lack of top notch research facilities.

I can say with fair amount of confidence that the most critical parts like armour etc are developed and rest of it can also be developed in India. It is a question of showing the carrot & stick.

Marten · Post by **Marten** » 13 Jun 2017 11:53

shiv wrote:
Yagnasri wrote: Almost all IA systems can be now made in India.
We are not making transmission systems but we make metal plates, rubber pads, seat covers and uniforms. Let some low tech private industry do the uniforms/rubber pads bit and let PSUs collaborate with high tech industry to develop transmission systems. We are frigging providing employment to Germans while these PSUs claim that they are delivering but army is screwing them.

What about Kirloskar trying to make something of the Cummins support that they had? I suspect the lack of a platform or orders would be quite daunting to any co which wants to invest. Imagine if the MoD is unwilling to buy even 500nos of tank that has comprehensively beaten the MBT that has been purchased in the thousands, what chance would anyone else have?

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 13 Jun 2017 12:05

Though the initial plan was to import few emgines for development till Indian engine for Arjun was ready, babus and PSU wallas never pursued this goal, partly due to money involved, chalta hai attitude and also lack of expertise.

India has the knowledge base. Plenty of NRI in the field too. That is not a problem.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 13 Jun 2017 12:20

It's no great secret that Arjun was patterned after the German Leopard tank.Since we had the Vickers Light Tank being manufactured by Avadi (Vijayanta), at that time a 4-man crew tank seemed to be fine to co-exist with the T-72s being acquired. However,the ultra-long time in Arjun's gestation (I have Frontline mags from the '80s about Arjun),3 decades now,saw the rapid induction of relatively cheap T-series MBTs,first T-72s,made under licence in bulk like MIG-21s,and then T-90s. Remember that we also had 700+ T-55s in service too and supposedly over 700 still with us in 2006. So one can see that operating large numbers of 3-man MBTs was predominant.

Two+ decades ago,that was the vision of the MOD/services,copying the features of the best western tank to serve alongside the T-series.Also remember that western wares were NOT available to us until the Cold War ended and it was only from the '90s that western top line eqpt. started being offered. Therefore,most of our def. eqpt. was from the Sovs.They built in bulk,cheap reliable eqpt.,less sophisticated than western wares but was what was available to us and what we could afford at that time.

About the engine.I remember that initially the Germans refused to give us the engine,but the moment we developed (can't remember by whom) a successful prototype for the Arjun,the Germans came around! Naturally their agents in India,mentioned in an above post,would've kept them well informed as to the dev. stage of the tank.

Look,when we are so busy b*ggering ourselves by babudom-just look at last night's revelations on Republic TV about the Enron scam,where out top lawyers,world std.were dumped for a two-bit Paki lawyer by the new Snake-oil Singh govt.,who lost Pak's case recently at the Hague over the alleged Indian "spy" on death row in Pak ,to the very same lawyers whom he replaced! We paid hundreds of millions of $$$ in compensation to Enron-and their lawyers,who went laughing all the way to the bank.The MOD is a monumental edifice which has claimed the heads of more DMs wanting to clean it up than babus who've been cleaned out! Now the Cong. is charging the current regime for losing the Antrix-Devas case .where we again have allegedly paid out huge amts. to firang entities.
Even MP it is said failed in part to usher in a revolution in its working.There is a great new plan in place to streamline its working/decision making,etc.,,but this will kick in only after a few years after the next election! What a ridiculous state of affairs.If there is no concerted sustained effort at a revolution in the strat./def. affairs establishment,we will stutter along,taking 2 steps forward and one step back,as the "ancien regime" still survives.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 13 Jun 2017 15:21

Marten wrote: What about Kirloskar trying to make something of the Cummins support that they had? I suspect the lack of a platform or orders would be quite daunting to any co which wants to invest. Imagine if the MoD is unwilling to buy even 500nos of tank that has comprehensively beaten the MBT that has been purchased in the thousands, what chance would anyone else have?

Avadi should have asked Kirloskar to develop the gearbox - or at least clone a German one. They did not They simply bought from Germany and fitted on to the tank. If they had 500 ordered - maybe 100 would have come from Germany and rest from Kirloskar. But tthe government had no policy of inviting private players, and PSU managers would have wanted to show fat order books and large turnover while workers may have struck work for sending orders to pvt Industry.

So Avadi simply crossed their fingers and simply passed on orders to Germany. Near where I live is a Kebab shop. You pay for a tikka and hand the receipt to a boy who shouts loudly "One half Tikka" into the kitchen. Tikka appears and boy puts in plate and gives you. Avadi was playing the role of that tikka boy for German transmissions. Every time Indian army said "Give us 2 tanks" - Avadi shouted to the German kitchen "Two transmissions!"

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 13 Jun 2017 15:22

Tanks are subjected to what is known as AUCRT - Accelerated Usage Cum Reliability Trials. This happens post induction.

During AUCRT, the tank and each of its sub component is put through paces in a compressed timeline. This mimics the tank usage across it's lifecycle.

Each sub component is pushed to limit till it fails. This serves two purpose - (a) check whether claims MTBF of sub components is same as advertised (b) which allows to calculate the spare part requirement.

Problem occurs if MTBF is lower than claimed, and expected, levels and sub component has high unreliability rate.

This can be due to multiple factors. If the sub component did OK in AUCRT but fails much more frequently in actual usage, then there is most likely production quality issue or maintenance issue or both.

chola · Post by **chola** » 13 Jun 2017 15:29

Perfect example of screwdriver giri: instead of developing your own subsystems by hook or crook (it's fvcking national security -- copy, steal, clone, whatever) you decide to be tikka boy by ordering indispensable parts from a phoren kitchen.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 13 Jun 2017 15:30

and here we are debating the utility of cobol vs 8088 assembler while the world has moved on to java and python

video:: this the future. imagine what swarms of such units could do if released into the wide open plains of tibet or sindh with organic LCH and pinaka. no need to wait for imported german gearboxes and precise torque values....SJ road in blr and ghaziabad mechnics in dilli with patch things up , give it a good bash and repair.

#continuous deployment
#release every 1 week
#cloud based inventory cycling
#sms alerts using iot sensors for wear n tear
# AC dual zone

# LCD screens to watch movies on the march

https://twitter.com/IvanSidorenko1/stat ... 0820647938

listen with sound

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 13 Jun 2017 15:35

arjuns fate was sealed when TSP did not go ahead with a M1A1 purchase (it was offered and tested in sindh) - panic!!
it recovered somewhat when the T80UD was got in bulk from ukraine, leading to fresh bout of lungi shiver !! all we had was the 40t t72 non-upg

the t72 upg meandered on and on with all trying their luck incl the poles.

then the knight in shining armour the tea-90 came and we have never looked back. today we are the worlds largest operator of this supreme beast and can "punch way above our weight" - breakfast in lahore, lunch in sargodha and a delicious dinner of mutton kabab in attock.

Marten · Post by **Marten** » 13 Jun 2017 15:49

Rohit, genuine question - did the T-90s undergo AUCRT?

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 13 Jun 2017 17:29

When I look at the big pic,it all seems "Kabuki" to me. Sabre rattling,sending shivers up the enemy's backside.The US played this to perfection during the Cold War.The USSR was economically exhausted trying to catch up with the fear of losing "Star Wars".The threat/fact of possessing vastly greater numbers of key eqpt would worry a lesser power enormously.In the Indo-Pak context,the losses/casualties suffered in previous wars would give both sides a good picture of what would happen in any future conflict,where the arrival of tactical missiles could increase losses. The IA poised to get sev. thousands of Spike ATGMs from Israel,post Mr. M's visit there,is bound to give the heebie-jeebies to the brown-pants brigade of Paki cut outs at GHQ.

But the IA certainly has a definite edge over the PA as far as armour is concerned,both in number and quality.If the magic fig of 4500+ MBTs are achieved by 2020,where we would have approx 18+ regiments of T-90s in addition to the T-72s and some T-55s still in service.

No idea if this has been posted before.
http://www.news18.com/news/tech/indian- ... 73345.html

Indian Army Seeks Invisible Tanks Through Electronic Camouflage
IANS
Updated: April 21, 2017,
Indian Army Seeks Invisible Tanks Through Electronic Camouflage Indian Army's T-90 Bhishma tanks (front). Representative Image. (Image: REUTERS/Altaf Hussain)
The Indian Army has sought a camouflage system to make its armoured fighting vehicles invisible to all kinds of sensors, said an army report.
The army in the report said the modern sensors can locate armoured vehicle -- tanks and personnel carriers -- through their heat and radar signature and to ensure the safety of the vehicles it desires protective systems that can render the vehicle completely invisible.
"The sensors are fitted right from satellites, aircrafts, helicopters, UAVs in the third dimension to the ground-based long range surveillance equipment operating continuously during day and night. Thus, camouflage now is a necessity for survivability of the force right from the time it moves out of its permanent locations to the time it prosecutes its might on the enemy," the report said.

The Indian Army on March 24 released the 'Compendium of Problem Statements, Volume II' here.
The 28 new problem statements, part of Volume II, would allow the industry and academia to understand the needs of the army and come up with indigenous solutions for military requirements.
At present, the armoured vehicles are camouflaged through paints and multispectral camouflage nets. These passive methods do not provide the level of protection that is required in future conflict scenario.
The army has asked the industry to come up with the solution through electronic camouflage which will blend the vehicle in its surrounding. This would enable the vehicle to change the image of the hull in concert with the changing environment.

In another option, the army has suggested for development is that of 'Quantum Stealth', a system being developed by a Canadian company, where a special material would make the vehicle invisible by bending the light waves around the target and will also removes infrared (night vision) and thermal signatures and also the shadow of the vehicle.
Speaking to IANS, Maj. Gen. Rajiv Narayanan, former Additional Director, Military Operations, said: "That's the way ahead. It generates artificial signature around it. It can deceive the enemy. We can't wish it away."
"You need futuristic technology for Indian industry and academia," said Narayanan while talking about the idea behind the sharing of problems with industry, "This kind of projects will improve the thinking of academia. As researchers come to DRDO from academia it will also benefit."
The first volume, with 50 problem statements, was released on December 5 last year.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 13 Jun 2017 19:37

Singha wrote:and here we are debating the utility of cobol vs 8088 assembler while the world has moved on to java and python

video:: this the future. imagine what swarms of such units could do if released into the wide open plains of tibet or sindh with organic LCH and pinaka. no need to wait for imported german gearboxes and precise torque values....SJ road in blr and ghaziabad mechnics in dilli with patch things up , give it a good bash and repair.

#continuous deployment
#release every 1 week
#cloud based inventory cycling
#sms alerts using iot sensors for wear n tear
# AC dual zone
# LCD screens to watch movies on the march

https://twitter.com/IvanSidorenko1/stat ... 0820647938

listen with sound

Logistics. Fuel and oil and refuelling in Tibet and the personnel for maintenance. Food. clothing and water for them. high altitude medical facilities, cell towers for SMS. Power supply to those towers. Generators. Fuel for generators. repeat and rinse

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 13 Jun 2017 20:00

It all boils down to a lack of vision.
Lack of vision at the level of the Defense Minister, and the party in power.

The Def Min has to have the intelligence, the involvement with his ministry, to provide leadership, engage in intellectual pow-wows with the top military leadership, defence industry and scientists to see how the nations defence can be forwarded.

If you have a political insect in that post, who lives and breathes politics, is busy doing chamchagiri to the queen bee, then god save the country, AOA!

India was hemmed by lack of budgetary support all this while, but was literally taken to the cleaners by a lack of vision at the top. Someone whose writ ruled over the ministry, instead of the other way round, where babus with their agendas and infightings ran things.

Arjun is a victim of that.
The defence forces know there is ministry apathy. No one in the ministry owns the Arjun or any domestic project - there are no bribe givers to the minister, to the party and the babus. It is a much safer bet to buy a russian tank, because, the russian supplier and its agent in india will bribe the ministry and any other assorted people that need to be, to ensure future contracts for spares.

Who is going to bribe the ministry for 30 pieces of gear box gaskets or 50 numbers of special filters for the Arjun? The DRDO? HVF Avadi? Who?
Even HVF Avadi, itself a victim of ministry apathy, is trying to pass the buck onto the Army, asking it to directly contact the manufacturer in Germany for spares! How does the army do that hain ji!
If the Arjun was privately manufactured by an Indian entity, the system would move just fine, because the private manufacture would oil the crankshafts in the ministry as needed.

Defence labs should slowly get out of manufacturing, and only do research. Even the research should be with the forces and a private player involved.
Or either the Government owned defence labs take ownership of their product and aggressively market it like a private entitiy and oil the system, or they have a private, Antrix type maketer for them, that deals with the Ministry and the Armed forces, and which regularly lubricates the system.

This is a major major issue, that needs to be understood, and needs to be fixed. Only then will indigenous programs not get the short shaft

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 13 Jun 2017 20:10

If the LCA has problems, like the above, one will fully understand what happened.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 13 Jun 2017 20:38

Marten wrote:Rohit, genuine question - did the T-90s undergo AUCRT?

Yes. But the exploitation of T-90 during AUCRT was not to the extreme. This information is basis a study which was posted online at the website of College of Material Management, Jabalpur. But has since been taken down. It was a case study which captured the involvement/experience of EME unit (from 1st Armored Division, IIRC) tasked with induction of T-90 into IA. These guys are responsible for complete upkeep of the tanks/all vehicles/helicopters/missiles...everything. It is their job to know about spare part usage and issues. Again, from memory, some components did not perform as per claimed numbers during AUCRT.

Neither was the T-90 trial done as per the required rigorousness nor did the AUCRT under-taken to level as expected. T-90 was getting inducted by hook or crook.

But on the other-hand, it has 67% commonality (if I remember correctly the number quoted in the report) with T-72. And is a known beast for the army. Apart from Thermal Sight issue in high temperature, I've not heard any maintenance issues with respect to T-90. Even the most vocal critics of T-90 lobby (I'm referring to ex-Cavalry officers) say one thing about T-72 and T-90 - fill it, shut it and forget it.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 13 Jun 2017 20:39

Marten wrote:Rohit, genuine question - did the T-90s undergo AUCRT?

Yes and had quite a few problems

The engine packed up before stipulated time

Also russis did not allow certain inspections claiming warranty issues

Marten · Post by **Marten** » 13 Jun 2017 21:13

Thank you Surya Sir, Rohit. Have a family member that has access to this ecosystem, and won't say a word for or against any of the machines involved.

Re Arjun: India is both blessed and cursed to have seen this fleeting success and let it slip away. Big miss in terms of engineering and of course capability.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 13 Jun 2017 21:42

rohitvats wrote: But on the other-hand, it has 67% commonality (if I remember correctly the number quoted in the report) with T-72. And is a known beast for the army. Apart from Thermal Sight issue in high temperature, I've not heard any maintenance issues with respect to T-90. Even the most vocal critics of T-90 lobby (I'm referring to ex-Cavalry officers) say one thing about T-72 and T-90 - fill it, shut it and forget it.

Let me say one or two things about Russian stuff - some of it well known and some of it my own guesswork/speculation

What is well known is the Russian penchant for commonality across platforms. Known examples are front wheel of MiG 21 is a Russian tractor front wheel (also made in India IIRC). A Foxtrot sub had an AC failure en route from Russia and two pistons were needed. Those pistons were obtained from a convoy of Russian trucks in an African port (in exchange for Vodka) (source" "Foxtrots of the Indian Navy" Cdre Franklin)

My own (informed) guesswork is that Russian hardware uses simpler and easier to master techniques to manufacture stuff to make their hardware field repairable by minimally trained people. The "fill it, shut it forget it" comment gels well with this impression. That aside we seem to be greatly familiar wiith Russian stuff and there is likely commonality across many platforms like trucks used for Russian SAM or MBRLs.

One of our huge laments (often seen in the media) is that India has a relatively low tech army that has a long way to go to become "state of the art" (in western brochure/website terms). This is an army that is more likely to like something that they can do quick fixes with than something that requires factory support, or worse third party German support. Again this is my own comment - not sourced on any reading/inside knowledge.

If this is true - army-DRDO collaboration might be a good idea to design something that one can produce in quantity and the other can handle with comfort.

Baikul · Post by **Baikul** » 13 Jun 2017 22:50

shiv wrote:...............

If you break up a tank into parts you could get
1. Body armour: made in India
2. Gun - possibly made in India
3. Engine - imported, built under licence
4. Transmission: imported
5. Tracks - Indian
6. Wheels: Indian
7. Basic instruments and sensors - Indian
8. IR viewer, gun aiming system, electronics for slaving gun to gunsight, gun stabilization servo controls - probably imported (don't know)
9. Seats, upholstery - Indian
10. Air conditioning Indian
11. Radio/comm - possibly Indian
12. Countermeasures/munitions: partly Indian/partly imported?

If the above list is accurate then the Arjun is a disaster. Some of the most critical, difficult to make, difficult to design and failure prone stuff is imported. How can you stock up spares if you don't know how many will fail

.................

Your list sparked off a random memory of an article I had read a long time ago. It didn't take more than 2 minutes with google to track it down. From the pen of the much maligned Ajay Shukla, written in 2006!

http://www.business-standard.com/articl ... 103_1.html

Parthasarathi is correct only in enumerating what the project visualised: designing, developing, testing, mass-producing and handing over to the Army a world-class tank. What he does not mention is that the DRDO's Arjun tank has, despite a time overrun of more than two decades and the expenditure of over Rs 2,000 crore, failed in developing critical systems like an engine, night vision equipment and radio sets. Instead, it imported them off-the-shelf and fitted them in the Arjun, creating a dependency on foreign vendors that undermines the logic for developing an Indian tank: creating self-sufficiency.

I don't know if we indigenized our radio sets after 2006 (when he wrote his article).

This is not on topic, but frankly, after seven years in BR, remembering all those long discussion on Arjun, I am now off the opinion that we can get over technical, verbose and over-analytical when sometimes the truth is just there to see, right in front of us.

Baikul · Post by **Baikul** » 13 Jun 2017 23:21

And continuing my propensity for OT stuff, here is the wiki page of a man who exemplified how the Army and DRDO can really cooperate. So, the blueprint's already there in his career (extreme apologies if folks already know of this, Mods can delete or take elsewhere):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranjit_Lal_Jetley

This man upgunned India's near obsolete Sherman tanks (something never done before), which were key destroying Pakistani tanks in 1965 at Asal Uttar. He gives a lovely description of it here:

http://www.mapleleafup.nl/g104/india.htm

India's upgraded two regiments of Shermans with the French 75mm High Velocity guns was the result of my idea and design.
In 1957-58 as a Lt.-Col. I while commanding 38 Medium regiments took part in an exercise called Doaba in Panjab supporting an armored Brigade. At the summing up of the exercise it was brought out by Chief Empire Gen. Kulwant Singh that the 76mm guns on Sherman did not have sufficient fire power to beat enemy armor.

In 1959-60 when I was commanding the Proof and Experimental Establishment at Balasore I evaluated the firepower of AMX-13 with 75mm H.V. gun to assess the maker's claim and found it exceptionally good to beat thick armor. I put up as a new idea of my own to the General Staff that we should upgun our Sherman tanks (the wasting assets of the army) with this gun, and requested for a obsolete tank to be given to me for carrying out the modification. A tank was given to me and in 3 months I mounted the 75mm High Velocity gun as my personal project and requested the Director at Armoured corp. General Rajinder Singh to see a demonstration at my location. The firing was a great success and the idea accepted.

Your observations of its weakness were known but set aside by the USER as I had mounted the gun on the existing turret, no one else in the world succeeded in that by then or later. India did not manufacture a turret by that time. The modification was primarily meant for Anti-Tank Role and this was well played in 1965 war from the hides. For this outstanding example showing ingenuity and skill for up gunning and saving 100 crores of wasting assets of tanks I was given in the list of Honors and Awards by the Chief of the Army Staff,

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 13 Jun 2017 23:53

Surya wrote:
Marten wrote:Rohit, genuine question - did the T-90s undergo AUCRT?
Yes and had quite a few problems

The engine packed up before stipulated time

Also russis did not allow certain inspections claiming warranty issues

That happened in trials. AUCRT showed other issues, apart from engines.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 14 Jun 2017 00:48

Baikul wrote:And continuing my propensity for OT stuff, here is the wiki page of a man who exemplified how the Army and DRDO can really cooperate. So, the blueprint's already there in his career (extreme apologies if folks already know of this, Mods can delete or take elsewhere):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranjit_Lal_Jetley

This man upgunned India's near obsolete Sherman tanks (something never done before), which were key destroying Pakistani tanks in 1965 at Asal Uttar. He gives a lovely description of it here:

http://www.mapleleafup.nl/g104/india.htm

India's upgraded two regiments of Shermans with the French 75mm High Velocity guns was the result of my idea and design.
In 1957-58 as a Lt.-Col. I while commanding 38 Medium regiments took part in an exercise called Doaba in Panjab supporting an armored Brigade. At the summing up of the exercise it was brought out by Chief Empire Gen. Kulwant Singh that the 76mm guns on Sherman did not have sufficient fire power to beat enemy armor.

In 1959-60 when I was commanding the Proof and Experimental Establishment at Balasore I evaluated the firepower of AMX-13 with 75mm H.V. gun to assess the maker's claim and found it exceptionally good to beat thick armor. I put up as a new idea of my own to the General Staff that we should upgun our Sherman tanks (the wasting assets of the army) with this gun, and requested for a obsolete tank to be given to me for carrying out the modification. A tank was given to me and in 3 months I mounted the 75mm High Velocity gun as my personal project and requested the Director at Armoured corp. General Rajinder Singh to see a demonstration at my location. The firing was a great success and the idea accepted.

Your observations of its weakness were known but set aside by the USER as I had mounted the gun on the existing turret, no one else in the world succeeded in that by then or later. India did not manufacture a turret by that time. The modification was primarily meant for Anti-Tank Role and this was well played in 1965 war from the hides. For this outstanding example showing ingenuity and skill for up gunning and saving 100 crores of wasting assets of tanks I was given in the list of Honors and Awards by the Chief of the Army Staff,

What an innovative officer!!

Wish others who followed him had same sense of the moment.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 14 Jun 2017 05:34

rohitvats wrote:
Surya wrote:
Yes and had quite a few problems

The engine packed up before stipulated time

Also russis did not allow certain inspections claiming warranty issues
That happened in trials. AUCRT showed other issues, apart from engines.

Nope the column header said during AUCRT- engine seized and replacement engine packed up

in addition to not performing to rated levels

rest mostly good except no ability to inspect optonics

more importantly it said based on experience with T72 certain tests adn guidelines were there which suggests that the T 72 went through growing pains of its own

srai · Post by **srai** » 14 Jun 2017 05:36

Baikul wrote: ...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranjit_Lal_Jetley

This man upgunned India's near obsolete Sherman tanks (something never done before), which were key destroying Pakistani tanks in 1965 at Asal Uttar. He gives a lovely description of it here:

http://www.mapleleafup.nl/g104/india.htm

...

Written with bit too much ego IMO.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 14 Jun 2017 06:21

Baikul wrote: What he does not mention is that the DRDO's Arjun tank has, despite a time overrun of more than two decades and the expenditure of over Rs 2,000 crore, failed in developing critical systems like an engine, night vision equipment and radio sets. Instead, it imported them off-the-shelf and fitted them in the Arjun, creating a dependency on foreign vendors that undermines the logic for developing an Indian tank: creating self-sufficiency.

I recall more than one conversation/talk involving DRDO people where they seemed to live in a fairy-tale world of "global economy" in which they would casually state that X, Y and Z components are freely available in the international market and can be bought off the shelf - no need to make in India. There was also dismissive confidence that if one vendor failed there would always be another. This changes the meaning of "import pasand"

But the blindness of this attitude should have been obvious to them. Even if alternate vendors are available for critical imported parts - the time taken in selecting tendering and ordering would be unacceptable for time critical issues like national defence. It's a bit like building Lego houses. As long as Lego is available you're OK.

It seems to me that Arjun's "failure" is its dependence of imported parts. This is actually a disquieting problem that surely affects 99% of our high tech "indigenous" programs. One can imagine the trouble the Chinese have faced and are still facing. But I am sure there are practicable work-arounds including pre-ordering spares and working those costs into the cost of the item. I doubt if that will help Arjun in any way. They way I am beginning to see it - the sooner they start working on a future Indian tank the better. I may be mistaken but a tank is probably more easy to design and produce than an AMCA. If our younger people get down to work it should be feasible

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 14 Jun 2017 06:27

^^ I had posted a news paper link that showed that MoD antiquated procurement process had tied up the orders for spares for Arjun and now they have been smoothened and spares are now available.
Its in this very thread....

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 14 Jun 2017 07:05

The question I have is: Is the Arjun's 1400 HP engine a mass produced item?
If yes, why is an indian company not producing it here, cheaper than the foreign manufacturer and trying to capture its market?
If no, why is an indian company not producing it here, and india pay the indian company, instead of the foreign company?

Need answers...