Small Arms Thread

Locked
abhik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3090
Joined: 02 Feb 2009 17:42

Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by abhik »

Is the Army still looking for a multi caliber rifle? Or has it been dropped after a wild goose chase.
Gyan
BRFite
Posts: 1596
Joined: 26 Aug 2016 19:14

Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by Gyan »

OFB Should have tried 7.62x51 in MCIWS variant which is more advanced design rather than in INSAS MK 1C.
Thakur_B
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2404
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by Thakur_B »

Gyan wrote:OFB Should have tried 7.62x51 in MCIWS variant which is more advanced design rather than in INSAS MK 1C.
OFB was given 4 months to be ready with a new rifle. I doubt they had the time to redesign MCIWS, itself a prototype, in that timeframe.
Gyan
BRFite
Posts: 1596
Joined: 26 Aug 2016 19:14

Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by Gyan »

4 months is adequate time in world of CAD CAM for a large manufacturing company in the relevant field. They already have manufacturing line of SLR for troublesome components like barrel, breech etc. MCIWS is reverse engineered HK416, they just had to copy HK417. The real problem might be that MCIWS is DRDO product & OFB did not involve them.
Gyan
BRFite
Posts: 1596
Joined: 26 Aug 2016 19:14

Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by Gyan »

But nice pics Thakur ji. Is LMG rotary or pivoting bolt?
Thakur_B
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2404
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by Thakur_B »

Gyan wrote:4 months is adequate time in world of CAD CAM for a large manufacturing company in the relevant field. They already have manufacturing line of SLR for troublesome components like barrel, breech etc. MCIWS is reverse engineered HK416, they just had to copy HK417. The real problem might be that MCIWS is DRDO product & OFB did not involve them.
AAR/MCIWS is not reverse engineered HK416, the 416, cannot field a folding buttstock as the stock houses the recoil spring. Internet speculation aside, at this point it is not even known whether it is a long stroke or short stroke design.
Gyan
BRFite
Posts: 1596
Joined: 26 Aug 2016 19:14

Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by Gyan »

Ok, MCIWS is hugely inspired by HK-416.
shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by shiv »

The original inspiration for all guns is here. Same basic design.
Thakur_B
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2404
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by Thakur_B »

Gyan wrote:Ok, MCIWS is hugely inspired by HK-416.
AR-15 family's ergonomics to be precise. Just like almost every non bullpup rifle being made today with few exceptions like galil, AK series and some SiG designs. The layout has its merits, easy to modify to ambidexterity, all controls (mag release, bolt release and safety) can be easily done without taking hands off rifle. Almost every new design is "inspired" from this layout.
Gyan
BRFite
Posts: 1596
Joined: 26 Aug 2016 19:14

Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by Gyan »

INSAS Was not inspired with this design hence sights were mounted on pivoting dust cover. It's a good thing to be able to chose the right design/layout from among dozens floating around. The point was, before being way laid, that 7.62x51 should also have adopted the same layout.
Pratyush
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12195
Joined: 05 Mar 2010 15:13

Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by Pratyush »

shiv wrote:The original inspiration for all guns is here. Same basic design.
:mrgreen: :rotfl:
Thakur_B
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2404
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by Thakur_B »

Image

The AK-103 is even stamped AK-103, which indicates this is a license build by one of the OFB factories. Apparently OFB's been trying to build them under license for a while.
http://www.indiastrategic.in/topstories ... _India.htm
http://www.indiandefensenews.in/2015/09 ... india.html
Gyan
BRFite
Posts: 1596
Joined: 26 Aug 2016 19:14

Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by Gyan »

AK 103 is just AK 103 which is being offered by OFB like they offered Tavor ie zitara
Thakur_B
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2404
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by Thakur_B »

Image

PARA SF firing GALIL short automatic rifle (not sure if we operate some or part of carbine trials).
Thakur_B
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2404
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by Thakur_B »

Image

Franchi SPAS-15 tactical shotgun on the leftmost NSG commando.
Thakur_B
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2404
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by Thakur_B »

Image
IWI Galatz in service with MARCOS
Kakkaji
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3866
Joined: 23 Oct 2002 11:31

Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by Kakkaji »

Might as well standardize on the Israeli small arms.

IA did not order Excalibur, and will not order MCIWS either. So, why waste time? Just give order to Punj-Lloyd under MII and be done with it.
Srutayus
BRFite
Posts: 178
Joined: 29 Aug 2016 05:53

Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by Srutayus »

IA did not order Excalibur, and will not order MCIWS either. So, why waste time? Just give order to Punj-Lloyd under MII and be done with it.
And some more indigenous efforts bite the dust...not because of the products, which appear to be very good designs. The small arms design capabilities at OFB and ARDE, the only organizations with this expertise in this country, which took decades to build, will be lost. :cry:

The climb from component manufacturing and assembly to design and design for manufacture for companies like Punj Lloyd will be a steep one, if they do attempt it that is.

And so the story continues... :roll:
Viv S
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5303
Joined: 03 Jan 2010 00:46

Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by Viv S »

What weapon am I looking at? Wooden stock with a scope?

Image
rkhanna
BRFite
Posts: 1171
Joined: 02 Jul 2006 02:35

Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by rkhanna »

Ak-47 .. alot of RR aks are getting new after market optics
Thakur_B
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2404
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by Thakur_B »

Comparing the newer Mk-1C prototypes, both 5.56 and 7.62 NATO, with older INSAS and excalibur builds, it appears that the manufacturing process has been changed from Stamped receiver to milled receiver. The rivets on the front of the receiver and around magazine well are gone now. The only rivets that remain are for trigger group and butt stock attachment. These differences are very similar to those in stamped and milled AKMs.

Here's older excalibur for comparison.
Image

Another point that I have noticed is extra large magwell cut, beyond the dimensions of 7.62 magazine. The magwell appears to have a chamber of some sorts visible in both 5.56 and 7.62 variant.
Image

My guess is that both variants are built around a common body, with minimum differences. I dare say there there might be a multi caliber version in works.
Thakur_B
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2404
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by Thakur_B »

Image

Jaitly checking out Mk-1c in 7.62 NATO.
Thakur_B
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2404
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by Thakur_B »

Army has issued two more RFIs for night sights for small arms.

5200 Nos for MMG.

15000 for 84 mm recoilless rifle.

Didn't knew we operated such a huge number of Carl Gustavs.
tsarkar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3263
Joined: 08 May 2006 13:44
Location: mumbai

Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by tsarkar »

Carl Gustav is the most versatile weapon Indian Service along with 7.62 mm MMG, and also carried by ships for boarding/landing parties. It offers ATGM effects at low costs, and much more accurate than RPGs used by Pakistan.

There is a beautiful air burst round that works wonders in jungles and mountains and proved very useful against LTTE in the foliage.
Manish_P
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5413
Joined: 25 Mar 2010 17:34

Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by Manish_P »

Hopefully it might be for the newest version

Much lighter than the earlier one.

Will lighten the load of our troops
Manish_P
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5413
Joined: 25 Mar 2010 17:34

Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by Manish_P »

Tsarkar ji

My mistake. I thought the RFI was for both the platform and the projectiles.

Hopefully the next batch of CGs we get/manufacture are the lighter M4 variant
Thakur_B
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2404
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by Thakur_B »

Image
Image
OFB prototype of the new 7.62x51mm assault rifle.This rifle is based on insas 1c rifle, that was developed from the experience derived from excalibur and insas rifle.It has a machined receiver,45 degree gas block, side folding metal butt stock and rotating bolt.
shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by shiv »

With OFB itself coming out with an array of small arms - I wonder if it is a good time for a "know your small arms" thread?
DrRatnadip
BRFite
Posts: 604
Joined: 31 Dec 2016 00:40

Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by DrRatnadip »

shiv wrote:With OFB itself coming out with an array of small arms - I wonder if it is a good time for a "know your small arms" thread?
Sir It will help people like me to understand small arms better.. learnt a lot from your videos on chinese infrastructure in tibet.. New thread will be a good learning experience on Indian small arms.. :)
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 59773
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by ramana »

Please read ArmenT 's blog
He starts from basics.
Thakur_B
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2404
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by Thakur_B »

Thakur_B
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2404
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by Thakur_B »

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 061913.cms

new INSAS 7.62 variant is lighter than older one.
Kakarat
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2225
Joined: 26 Jan 2005 13:59

Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by Kakarat »

Akshay Kapoor
Forum Moderator
Posts: 1643
Joined: 03 May 2011 11:15

Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by Akshay Kapoor »

If I'm not mistaken that's Gen YK Joshi ex CO of 13 Jak Rif in Kargil ops. Great to see battle veterans reaching the top. Wish Col Lalit Rai had also reached the top.
Thakur_B
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2404
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by Thakur_B »

That looks like standard Fn-Fal magazine. This rifle, though lighter than INSAS, will weigh at least 4.8 Kgs with magazine. Add weight of accessories like
4-5 spare magazines (800 g each)
holographic sight (350g)
UBGL (1.5 Kgs)
3-4 40 mm grenades (250g each)
foregrip (300-400g)
some spare batteries inside grips (60 g)
PNS (1.35 Kg)
Telescopic sight (500g)

We are easily looking at 8 Kg of rifle and ammunition weight for the individual soldier, for just basic configuration with 4 spare mags, holographic sight and foregrip.
Kakkaji
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3866
Joined: 23 Oct 2002 11:31

Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by Kakkaji »

Thakur_B wrote: That looks like standard Fn-Fal magazine. This rifle, though lighter than INSAS, will weigh at least 4.8 Kgs with magazine. Add weight of accessories like
4-5 spare magazines (800 g each)
holographic sight (350g)
UBGL (1.5 Kgs)
3-4 40 mm grenades (250g each)
foregrip (300-400g)
some spare batteries inside grips (60 g)
PNS (1.35 Kg)
Telescopic sight (500g)

We are easily looking at 8 Kg of rifle and ammunition weight for the individual soldier, for just basic configuration with 4 spare mags, holographic sight and foregrip.
Dumb question:

How does that compare with the "maadern" rifles from phaaren competitors?
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 59773
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by ramana »

From TOI report the rifle met all the requirements except the '2400 rounds without stoppage". Mr. Agarwal of RFI, OFB says that feature was there in the 5.56mm version and is an easy fix.
Cost wise it looks great at Rs. 50,000 for rifle and accessories.


Thakur_B:
How many magazines would 2400 rounds mean?

how does this compare to AK-47?
abhik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3090
Joined: 02 Feb 2009 17:42

Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by abhik »

Any idea on how this gun is supposed to be lighter than INSAS? Also the barrel length appears to be less than SLR (not sure if it actually is).
Bishwa
BRFite
Posts: 314
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Small Arms Thread

Post by Bishwa »

Yes, Lt. Gen Y.K.Joshi is former CO of 13 JAK Rif in Kargil. Capt Vikram Batra as well as Naib Subedar Sanjay Kumar are from the same unit.
Last edited by Bishwa on 21 Jun 2017 07:26, edited 1 time in total.
Locked