India Border Watch: Security and Operations

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 25 Jun 2017 09:41

Entry to Kailash was refused due to land slides or something, it's not related to the border skirmish.

DrRatnadip · Post by **DrRatnadip** » 25 Jun 2017 12:50

what exactly is chinese are trying to achieve? Is it somehow related to indian fire assaults on pakis?? They might try to help pakis by distracting IA with possibility of two front confrontation..

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 25 Jun 2017 13:40

A shoving match at one place on a long border will distract IA on the other front? And for an army that is one of the largest in the world. That doesn't sound right.

DrRatnadip · Post by **DrRatnadip** » 25 Jun 2017 14:28

pankajs wrote:A shoving match at one place on a long border will distract IA on the other front? And for an army that is one of the largest in the world. That doesn't sound right.

Exactly..I want to know what might be their objective.. Destruction of our bunkers few days after our PM praised tranquility on LAC since 40 ys..

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 25 Jun 2017 14:55

If you look at the map - the approach to Kailash Manasarovar via Nathu La looks totally weird to me. People have to cross north of Nepal and head west along the Chinese G 219 to get to the lake

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 25 Jun 2017 15:02

This is a guess ....

Perhaps the access via Sikkim has better roads, climate, less hazardous, etc.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 25 Jun 2017 15:08

OK ...
http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/india-em ... ra-1414482

The Nepalgunj-Simikot-Hilsa route is considered difficult due to a treacherous terrain but a lot of Indians prefer the route that is close to the China border.

The other routes are via Uttrakhand and Sikkim
http://www.livemint.com/Politics/vaqy8c ... rover.html

Nathu La pass—the new route via Sikkim is shorter, safer and more comfortable than the older route via Lipulekh Pass

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 25 Jun 2017 15:28

DrRatnadip wrote:Exactly..I want to know what might be their objective.. Destruction of our bunkers few days after our PM praised tranquility on LAC since 40 ys..

My guess is that they constantly try to remind us of our position especially given the recent trajectory of our relationship. So when Modi spoke, it provided a perfect backdrop to remind us [GOI and more importantly the Indian citizens] and the world of our position/vulnerability.

When I heard Modi say what he said I kind of expected some kind of bakiness from the Chinese. To my mind that was a clear invitation. My observation is that with the Bakis and the Chinis you should NEVER make an absolute statement. Perhaps Modi was using the opportunity to convey a more conciliatory stance in light of the recent occurrences.

Similar to when India says *peace at any cost* or "uninterrupted and uninterpretable dialog" is an open invitation to the Bakis.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 25 Jun 2017 19:07

I think Modi's words need to be seen in the overall context of India-China relations - an aspect that has been clearly dealt with by Shivshankar Menon in his book "Choices". He points out that huge areas of the border are so hostile to life that they are not inhabited or patrolled. It is just that China and India have reached an agreement (post Narasimha Rao) where each is aware of the other's claims but have simply agreed not to push their claim by creeping up and building something. In other words - over huge areas there is no marked border. This ambiguity means that Indians will be regularly patrolling areas that the Chinese claim while the Chinese intrude into areas that Indians claim. As long as no structure is built (or even if a structure is built) it is dealt with by dismantling followed by talks rather than shooting. There are areas where India might build a wall or a bunker that the Chinese object to and vice versa. We have seen numerous reports of this.

That said - Nathu La is pretty much the only area where Indian and Chines troops exist face to face. Face to face encounters have occurred in other areas - of which we have read reports. But Shivshankar Menon makes it a point to stress that the Indian presence used to be very thin on the ground till the mid 80s or early 90s. After that the Indian presence has expanded massively - so Chinese incursions are detected and reported and dealt with as per established procedure. This increased Indian presence has definitely caused concern to the Chinese.

Finally - a personal note - in the last BRF+DFI meet I had during Aero India - deejay told us a very funny story where a group of Air Force and army personnel went hunting for the wreckage of an aircraft at the border. They wandered into Chinese territory - a fact that was known to the accompanying army men but not to the Vayusena explorers until much later. But what ultimately chased them off was a bear if I recall correctly.

DrRatnadip · Post by **DrRatnadip** » 25 Jun 2017 20:27

Thanks for clarification Shiv sir.. One doubt remains in my mind..what chinese might have used to destroy bunkers? heavy wepons ???

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 25 Jun 2017 20:52

^^they wont risk that. there might be people inside. physically come up to bunkers and dismantle it is the usual modus operandi.

what the PM said is correct and stands to this day, no people have been killed due to restraint being shown by both sides. even in case of physical altercation. there's a gentleman's agreement so to speak that both sides adhere to; no bullets or weapons used.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 25 Jun 2017 20:56

DrRatnadip wrote:Thanks for clarification Shiv sir.. One doubt remains in my mind..what chinese might have used to destroy bunkers? heavy wepons ???

These so called "bunkers" are just locally available boulders heaped one on the other - so it is done manually
Watch this video. The only shooting, though both sides are armed is by video camera
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J14PCv5rRcc

Sridhar K · Post by **Sridhar K** » 25 Jun 2017 21:38

pankajs wrote:OK ...
http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/india-em ... ra-1414482
The Nepalgunj-Simikot-Hilsa route is considered difficult due to a treacherous terrain but a lot of Indians prefer the route that is close to the China border.

I have been on this route to Manasarovar. No one takes this route by road but rather by air, which is expensive. People who travel by road through Nepal (majority) do the Kathmandu G219 route which connects the road from Lhasa. The Nathula route also joins this road. Recently my aunt took the Nathula route which is quite long but on very good roads on Chinese volvo clones. This route is comfortable, shorter in time but not in distance when compared to Lipuleh pass which takes you very close to Manasarovar directly

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 25 Jun 2017 21:49

^^Thanks for that informative post.

Sridhar K · Post by **Sridhar K** » 25 Jun 2017 22:16

Shivji
Adding some couple of annectodes to your excellent reasearch on the Chinese sabre rattling thread.

The Simikot Hilsa route takes half an hour by chopper but 2 days by trek. once you cross the Mandakini river at the Hilsa border, The Chinese have laid excellent roads on their side. The villages enroute have excellent facilities for their Han populations, reminding me of US country side. There is quite a bit of farms with greenhouses to grow vegetables and fruits. You get a lot of them in super market in towns like Taklakot/Burang. These roads are able to handle large tractor/ trailers.

As we fly from Simikot to Hilsa the terrain changes from lush green mountains to barren ones as you reach the Chinese borders. Not sure whether they have similar infra all across right to the border but G219 is excellent all along. The two spurs from G219 to the border (Hilsa and Nathula)though shown as minor roads are pretty decent in Summer but closed during winter for the yatris

The Tibetan guides all along the Kailash Parikrama are dependent on Chinese packed food while we were served hot rava upma/pongal prepared by Nepali cooks using stuff that got shipped from Nepal along with our luggage.

Kashi · Post by **Kashi** » 26 Jun 2017 05:46

According to hammerhead on DFI, Para SF carried out trans-LoC hit on June 23, opposite the sector where the most recent BAT action was foiled. 3 given the taste of their own medicine.

DrRatnadip · Post by **DrRatnadip** » 26 Jun 2017 18:11

http://m.timesofindia.com/india/in-touc ... 320427.cms

BEIJING: China today said it was in talks with India over the denial of entry to 47 Indian pilgrims who were scheduled to travel to Kailash Mansarovar in Tibet through the Nathu-la pass in Sikkim.
"According to my information, the two governments are in touch over this issue," Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesman Geng Suhang told reporters, declining to elaborate whether it was due to any weather-related issues like landslides and rains the Pilgrims were stopped by the Chinese officials at the Sino-India border.

DrRatnadip · Post by **DrRatnadip** » 26 Jun 2017 19:21

http://m.timesofindia.com/india/chinese ... 322709.cms

NEW DELHI: In another transgression, Chinese troops entered India in the Sikkim sector and jostled with Indian Army personnel guarding the Sino-India frontier, besides destroying two bunkers.
The face-off has been going on in Doka La general area in Sikkim for the past ten days and the Chinese troops have also stopped a batch of pilgrims proceeding on Kailash Mansarovar Yatra, official sources said today.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 26 Jun 2017 20:52

Silly antics like clockwork to coincide with namo visit to USA

DrRatnadip · Post by **DrRatnadip** » 26 Jun 2017 21:19

suryag wrote:Silly antics like clockwork to coincide with namo visit to USA

Chinese love to give such not so subtle signals.. Agni V test in responce will give them good test of their own medicine.. We should make it clear everytime that they are dealing with a nuclear armed military power and not some punny nation..

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 26 Jun 2017 21:24

Warning not to move closer to US. The message is that only with China and with its consent can the border issues be resolved. US will not come to India's rescue.

sivab · Post by **sivab** » 26 Jun 2017 22:06

https://twitter.com/globaltimesnews/sta ... 4677604352

Global Times‏Verified account @globaltimesnews

#Indian troops’ provocation in border areas has violated Sino-Indian consensus and endangered peace: Chinese MoD

sudeepj · Post by **sudeepj** » 26 Jun 2017 22:23

This is.. Excellent news. I am happy that PLA is issuing threatening statements to India. I hope the tenor and the tone of the statements escalates even further and PLA thugs start bashing our PM directly.

The status of countries is defined not only by what they are capable of, but also who they are opposed to. Just as India-Pak confrontation limits India to the subcontinent in the strategic calculations of the world, Pak pull our strategic stature down, an Indo-China confrontation lifts Indian status up to a first rate, global power with its own interests in the 'Indo-Pacific'.

CentCom murdabaad, Pacom zindabad!

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 26 Jun 2017 22:52

Prashant Patel Umrao‏Verified account @ippatel
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After Clash Indian Army pushed Chinese Army back & blocked 6 Chinese spy spots in Arunachal. Indian Army captured 3 km of chinese land too.

I don't follow this gentleman much, but could this be accurate info?

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 26 Jun 2017 23:07

What is spy spot ?

DrRatnadip · Post by **DrRatnadip** » 26 Jun 2017 23:11

Indian govt is surprisingly very quiet about this recent standoff..

DrRatnadip · Post by **DrRatnadip** » 26 Jun 2017 23:14

Karthik S wrote:
Prashant Patel Umrao‏Verified account @ippatel
Follow
More
After Clash Indian Army pushed Chinese Army back & blocked 6 Chinese spy spots in Arunachal. Indian Army captured 3 km of chinese land too.
I don't follow this gentleman much, but could this be accurate info?

As per early reports confrontation was in sikkim tibet bhutan trijunction not Arunachal pradesh..

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 26 Jun 2017 23:16

Karthik S wrote:
Prashant Patel Umrao‏Verified account @ippatel
Follow
More
After Clash Indian Army pushed Chinese Army back & blocked 6 Chinese spy spots in Arunachal. Indian Army captured 3 km of chinese land too.
I don't follow this gentleman much, but could this be accurate info?

This might be similar to error Indians make parroting the bakis and refer to POK as "Ajad Kashmir".

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 27 Jun 2017 08:52

Per Rajfortyseven on twitter, PLA is building a road through Bhutan like they did in Aksai Chin. This bunker related skirmish is at the tibet bhutan india border.

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 27 Jun 2017 09:02

jamwal wrote:What is spy spot ?

My guess: an Observation Post (OP) from where movements across the line and other details are monitored daily. Located at a vantage point.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 27 Jun 2017 09:31

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 326587.cms
India's blocking of road building in Sikkim seriously damaged border peace: China

NEW DELHI/BEIJING: The People's Liberation Army today accused the Indian military of stopping the construction of a road in what it claims to be China's "sovereign territory" in the Sikkim section of the India-China border and said the move has "seriously damaged" border peace and tranquillity.

In a statement, the Chinese defence ministry spokesman Ren Guoqiang said recently China had begun the construction of a road in DongLang region, but was stopped by Indian troops crossing the Line of Actual Control (LAC).

<snip>

After the India-China war of 1962, the area has been under the Indian Army and the ITBP, which is the border guarding force and has a camp 15km from the international border.

So it seems to suggest that Indian holds areas beyond the Sikkim international border and this LAC is 15 km beyond. Interesting ...

Well of course India cannot unilaterally withdraw for the area under its control without demarcation of the border.

Kashi · Post by **Kashi** » 27 Jun 2017 09:35

^^ Well Aksai-Chin started with road building didn't it?

rahul_r · Post by **rahul_r** » 27 Jun 2017 10:06

This appears to be a more recent video from the Sikkim incident. The Chinese seem to be acting like selfie stick wielding tourists trying to encroach onto protected property.

kapilrdave · Post by **kapilrdave** » 27 Jun 2017 14:07

rahul_r wrote:

This appears to be a more recent video from the Sikkim incident. The Chinese seem to be acting like selfie stick wielding tourists trying to encroach onto protected property.

Forget firing a bullet, these oh-so-powerful chinese intruders aren't even carrying a rifle .

.
This reminds me of AAP's routine protests at jantar-mantar, so eager to get arrested to get a corner space on the front page next morning

. Photu khinch liya, ab chalo ghar wapas

.

prasan · Post by **prasan** » 27 Jun 2017 14:12

rahul_r wrote:

...

Zombie attack. Even baby pandas behave same way.

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 27 Jun 2017 14:18

DrRatnadip · Post by **DrRatnadip** » 27 Jun 2017 14:35

Reminded me preventing my wife from entering shops to avoid excessive shopping..

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 27 Jun 2017 14:39

Looks like we are going to see more and more incidents because the Chinese had got used to patrolling huge uncontrolled areas and seeing no Indians. Now they are seeing more and more. That is a good sign. After 70 years we seem to be putting men on the borders in some numbers. It is necessary.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 27 Jun 2017 14:47

^
Agree. Indians have started showing up and that is causing khujli. The Chinese want India to de-facto accept a boundary as per their wish even before the settlement.

ashthor · Post by **ashthor** » 27 Jun 2017 16:27

Did we do a chinese checker on the chinese...