GST - Discussion on all Aspects

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 09 Jul 2017 03:06

Filing 3 times is a talking point. Check specific details. Once entered , the other two are auto generated with minimal effort.

rahulm · Post by **rahulm** » 09 Jul 2017 10:32

GST forcing CAs to spend sleepless nights

Panaji: Since the Goods and Services Tax (GST) was launched, chartered accountants and taxation consultants are spending sleepless nights explaining the intricate details of the GST to their clients. With the clock ticking and the given July 31 deadline for income-tax returns looming, chartered accountants and consultants are getting additional hands on board to resolve customer queries.

"Over the last few days the calls have kept coming about queries related to rates and service codes. Then there are doubts over rates for bundled services and then there are grey areas. All of this brings quite a lot of people to my office," chartered accountant and Goa Chamber of Commerce and Industry president Sandip Bhandare said.

Panaji: Since the Goods and Services Tax (GST) was launched, chartered accountants and taxation consultants are spending sleepless nights explaining the intricate details of the GST to their clients. With the clock ticking and the given July 31 deadline for income-tax returns looming, chartered accountants and consultants are getting additional hands on board to resolve customer queries.

"Over the last few days the calls have kept coming about queries related to rates and service codes. Then there are doubts over rates for bundled services and then there are grey areas. All of this brings quite a lot of people to my office," chartered accountant and Goa Chamber of Commerce and Industry president Sandip Bhandare said.

While some accountants claim to have responded to late night panic calls, others complain about being asked to clarify rumours about GST being circulated on WhatsApp groups. Despite repeatedly addressing queries about provisional ids and final GSTN registration, the same questions keep coming up.

For director of Jamsons Computers Private Limited, Muzaffar Kadri, the sole distributor for Tally ERP in Goa, working hours have stretched to late night.

"There is a huge rush to purchase the software and people are also coming to us for software updates, which they had not done for a year. There has been a 50% increase in footfalls at my shop. We are now open even on Sundays, sometimes till 11pm, addressing service issues," Kadri said.

At least 80% of the services were not registered, but because of the reverse charge mechanism, a lot of people are compelled to come on board GST. It will be hectic for us as compliance will go up, and compliance is time bound," taxation consultant Rajendra Narvekar said.

It's working. Tax base and Compliance is going up and it's all 'time bound'. Nice. In the previous tax regime services 'escaped' the tax net.

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 09 Jul 2017 14:45

disha wrote:Guys., for complaining against restaurants who have jacked up prices post GST (they are all tax frauds)., send an email to blackmoneyinfo@incometax.gov.in with the restaurant details.

Have been to 4-5 udupi joints in the past week (including 2 really well known ones). ALL of them have put a 18% GST surcharge on the bill. It's highly unlikely they were not paying any tax earlier. Don't recollect their earlier bills breakup, but probably was all taxes included, since the price given on the menu card was what was to be paid.

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 09 Jul 2017 23:29

I expect that Budget 2018 will slash personal income tax rates. With the hugely broadened business tax income, they can afford to do so. Right now, as I'd posted during the last budget, the amount of income declared as business income is laughably small. Let me find that chart again. It was in economy thread.

Ah yes here:
Tax revenue breakdown post made during 2017 budget

I don't really expect the people to blame the government for inflation. All GoI has to do is repeatedly emphasize that tax has always been due for these items and that any significant price rise is because of unscrupulous owners, and people should boycott such businesses if they wish.

A lot of business folks who made a big deal about cost of doing business will be shown to have been swimming without underwear, as GST causes the tide to go out.

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 10 Jul 2017 09:24

Cross post from the Political thread:

GST will now lead to inflation. Earlier predictions that prices by and large remain the same are wrong. From what I saw, at least prices of food items in hotels and others have risen. The traders and other like builders who are not paying taxes earlier will game the system and just increased the prices. GoI can not go after the traders immediately and by the time the system stabilises and action is contemplated the increased prices will be new normal. GoI can now go on a new advertising campaign to educate people so that they can at least be informed what the traders etc are doing.

Hopefully, there is some benefit to mango people in the end by this.

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 10 Jul 2017 10:53

GST will now lead to inflation.

GST is NOT what's leading to price rise. It's the rampant tax avoidance that's leading to it. It's *very* important that those who understand the situation speak with proper nuance. Please don't misuse language like that. It's quite damaging to what is the most significant piece of taxation reform in our history.

All GST is doing is making tax avoidance impossible because of one cannot claim credit without paying tax first. There were an enormous number of businesses that were either not collecting tax at all, or pretending to collect it and pocketing it as added margin.

From a public perception point of view, it's critical that not just government, but we here get our message straight. "GST is leading to price rise" is wrong semantics. The public may be simple in its thinking. But that's not an excuse to misuse language and pass wrong simple messages to them. Not just govt, but we here, who post on social media etc, need to describe the situation accurately.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 10 Jul 2017 11:47

Gus wrote:Filing 3 times is a talking point. Check specific details. Once entered , the other two are auto generated with minimal effort.

Spoke to a CA yesterday. They are licking their lips. The "per filing" charge is Rs 500 (for him). Others charge different rates - some even as high as Rs 2000! Multiply that by 36 times. Every year.

If I am an SMB, either:

I do it myself, which will be painful because I am not tech savvy or GST savvy enough. Also, I need to be absolutely meticulous that I do it 36 frigging times a year without fail! Oh by the way, I also have a business to run.

(or)

I pay anywhere from Rs 18K to Rs 72K per annum, depending on which CA I pick

If I am an honest, tax-paying small business, I will absolutely hate Modi. Thanks to Jaitley & his baboons.

This is not a criticism of GST. It is a criticism of the babu-terrorism that's been unleashed on small businesses - even the honest ones. The implementation could have been far less painful & far more politically-winning.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 10 Jul 2017 13:10

Prem Kumar wrote:
Gus wrote:Filing 3 times is a talking point. Check specific details. Once entered , the other two are auto generated with minimal effort.
Spoke to a CA yesterday. They are licking their lips. The "per filing" charge is Rs 500 (for him). Others charge different rates - some even as high as Rs 2000! Multiply that by 36 times. Every year.

If I am an SMB, either:

I do it myself, which will be painful because I am not tech savvy or GST savvy enough. Also, I need to be absolutely meticulous that I do it 36 frigging times a year without fail! Oh by the way, I also have a business to run.

(or)

I pay anywhere from Rs 18K to Rs 72K per annum, depending on which CA I pick

If I am an honest, tax-paying small business, I will absolutely hate Modi. Thanks to Jaitley & his baboons.

This is not a criticism of GST. It is a criticism of the babu-terrorism that's been unleashed on small businesses - even the honest ones. The implementation could have been far less painful & far more politically-winning.

I am thinking,

- Weren't businesses employing CA's to do book keeping even previously..?
- Wasn't the previous tax regime much more complicated that GST..??
- Weren't businesses paying advanced taxes, self-assessment taxes, quarterly returns already..??

A majority of SMB businesses were perhaps saving on this because they simply were not paying any taxes. The overall financial systems have become markedly simpler in last 3-5yrs. It used to be far more complicated and slower previously. Regarding being savvy, I have seen so called "Tech-savvy" or supposedly smart-ass salaried folks paying 200 bucks en masse to fill even ITR1...!

Again when its been made clear that only 1 return needs to be filled and other two are auto generated, what's the point in repeating "36" returns per year diatribe?? Currently many will try to get windfall gains in the time of chaos. But soon the dust will settle. The processes will only improve in coming time. Short term pain, long term gain only.

I think Modi should have postponed the GST implementation by a quarter or so. I understand the compulsion of having a hard limit. But GOI could have postponed the date by one quarter in say last week of June. But yes, whatever the date might have been, there would have been a section who would have waited until the last date and then cry foul saying not enough time was given.

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 10 Jul 2017 13:17

CA may be overcharging due to fear and uncertain in the people. Once the GST becomes normal to do and there is no fear as such the charges will have to come down. If they over charge then use computers on your own or have a B Com fellow to do the work for you. There will be many to do it. Some happened with IT returns over the time.

@Suraj sir,

In respect of the GST creating infation, what I meant is what you said.

SaraLax · Post by **SaraLax** » 10 Jul 2017 13:40

Suraj wrote:
GST will now lead to inflation.
GST is NOT what's leading to price rise. It's the rampant tax avoidance that's leading to it. It's *very* important that those who understand the situation speak with proper nuance. Please don't misuse language like that. It's quite damaging to what is the most significant piece of taxation reform in our history.

All GST is doing is making tax avoidance impossible because of one cannot claim credit without paying tax first. There were an enormous number of businesses that were either not collecting tax at all, or pretending to collect it and pocketing it as added margin.

From a public perception point of view, it's critical that not just government, but we here get our message straight. "GST is leading to price rise" is wrong semantics. The public may be simple in its thinking. But that's not an excuse to misuse language and pass wrong simple messages to them. Not just govt, but we here, who post on social media etc, need to describe the situation accurately.

Once can say whatever they want. But GST is indeed leading to price rise for the common man by making the traders to compulsorily pay the taxes on their sales and this is happening by the process of traders passing over the entire tax amount on to the final consumer of whatever product they sell. Ofcourse the main problem here is that the previous governments allowed these same traders to escape out of the need to pay these same taxes due to corruption among government's revenue & tax enforcement organizations and also due to lazy monitoring & lax enforcement of taxation. The current government is properly forcing the traders to pay taxes and but is thus indirectly burdening the consumers to pay more for the same products that they used to consume previously. The traders are not at all affected in any manner - they continue to make same or more money than in pre-GST times because they just passed over the GST tax rate amount to the end consumer for the products they are selling.So its de-facto the central & state governments that are taxing the common man more via GST and since GST was pushed through by Central Govt ... it would be the CG that will take the bulk of this negative development. What sort of better governance & reach-out to the common man .. living in the last mile of the governance path ... the current NDA govt hopes to deliver via additional revenues earned through GST is something that can only be speculated.

I really don't know why my LIC premium, my life term premium payment rates and etc have increased by a few % points, why my Kids's video & electronic game parlours' rates have increased by 20 INR and etc. I am hearing that prices of bikes & cars are coming down by a few % points but then the prices of servicing them, buying yearly insurance for them, adding ancillaries to them seem to have increased. Net-Net .. no price increase for products like bikes & cars. Beyond that - when it comes to any service based consumption by the common man - it seems increased prices are more often encountered by the common man and he will remember these increased prices alone. It is not for some stupid reason that Congress, Communists and etc bailed out of the GST Launch ceremony and talked in the reverse of what they were doing until then (i.e combine with central government and fix the GST rates). At the same time, i know that BJP would have easily foreseen the scenario of price rise setting in across the common man's goods & services consumption spectrum. Makes me wonder what factor made the BJP's top brass & strategic thinkers to believe that in a post-GST world, the common man would still move their body out of his/her home to vote for them when they are facing an across-the-board-price-rise scenario. Is it that NDA plans to slash taxes for common man in coming budget in 2018 or 2019 ??? ... but that's not a 'sure-to-gather-votes' sort of tactic and i would be circumspect on that ploy. OR is the central govt still experimenting with the numerous GST rates and will quickly reduce the tax rates for various common man consuming products with in the next 2 or 3 months ?.

All the opponents of this NDA govt have seen the government do is .. place various sorts of additional service taxes & increase the service tax to upto 15% on the whole (i.e until roll out of GST). Swacch Bharat cess, Krishi Kalyan Cess (& we still have farmers rioting and getting numerous 100% loan waivers every 3 or so years across vast regions of the nation). Salaried folks have already had to give up on their subsidised LPG, are facing increased rail travel costs and Govt services are still no good when it comes to say education or health and the default choice of salaried folks is to run for privately delivered education & health alone. I agree the housing interest rates have fallen and are more attractive for the common man currently than before but the number of folks building first house is also not a lot in number.

IMHO - running a zero corruption, highly active & innovative government, relatively better functioning, strong posturing govt against China & Pak and etc pales in front of 'GST enforced' price rises for daily goods & services consumption !!. I only hope in 2019 when all Non-BJP parties combine & square off against Modi's BJP - the non-BJP parties don't win and ensconce themselves in a central government flush with finances earned through GST, earned through reducing chances of black-money-earning-tendencies, earned through reduced corruption in proper tendering & auction of the nation's resources and so on. It will not be a complex job for opposition parties to get together & craft a true anti-BJP, anti-NDA campaign messages on across-the-spectrum price-rises caused by GST and get through to the common man. So i hope the BJP knows what it is doing.

rahulm · Post by **rahulm** » 10 Jul 2017 14:55

Perhaps, it the 'organised' sector (big factories and karobar) which has no wiggle room and choice has complied with the letter and spirit of the GST. Most, maybe all, of these were probably already paying tax.

And, maybe, it's the 'unorganised' sector (gyms, mom and pop shops and establishments ) that were never part of the tax net have protected their sales and maintained and maybe even increased their margins by simply adding the GST to their baseline sales number.

The efficacy and effectiveness of the anti profiteering body remains to be seen but i would be surprised if it went after the 'unorganised' sector types where the profiteering is likely to be most rampant. Most biggies will likely comply.

I think most noises have come from the 'unorganised' sector types. The biggies mostly just got on with it.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 10 Jul 2017 15:22

SaraLax: agree with your sentiment. What the GST has done is enable mass-cartelization, whereby a large % of businesses simultaneously jack up the prices (as if in collusion). Such an event cannot normally happen, but the GST has provided them with that opportunity. Most businesses in India don't run an efficient supply chain and "cheating on taxes" contributed a good chunk to their margins. The GST price hike has now taken the place of cheating. Granted, its a one-time hit & a mass-price-hike is unlikely to happen again. But Modi sarkar may pay a price for it in 2019. That would be bad for the nation.

That's why they could've been smarter about it. If they had worked out an agreement with the states by which the tax on practically every item came down (with the center compensating the states accordingly), the political messaging would have been crystal clear: "With GST, you will pay equal-or-less for everything! So, report anything abnormal". Anyone doing price-gouging would have stuck out like a sore thumb. The expanded tax base would have justified such a move. But the nitpicking babugiri has ensured that the below 2 situations get mixed up, confuses the consumer & provides ammo for the opposition:

1) Genuine tax rise due to new GST rates
2) Price gouging by the business

And to the gentleman who stated above "2 out of 3 filings each month are auto-generated", my point is "why do it then?". Will GST not work if the filing happens only once a quarter? If I am a business, having to do a repetitive task 36 times in a year is bloody well not "ease of doing business". Maybe the ones defending this insane babugiri must try running a business to see how painful it is.

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 10 Jul 2017 15:28

As per the estimates 3 to 4 Lakh Cr will be the additional revenue. Traders are not going to take that hit. If anything they are going to make money out of this. Mango people will pay it. So GoI giving significant direct tax benefits to people is one way of offsetting the hardship for at least salaried class. There is little hope of that happening.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 10 Jul 2017 15:38

I recall Subramaniam Swamy stating as early as 2014 that Modi should abolish income tax and replace it with indirect taxes. But what we see are a nibble here and a nibble there by Jaitley & Baboons. Once again, there is clarity in Swamy's thought process, which is lacking in Modi.

Just like OROP, the babus will make sure that Modi comes out looking bad in GST, in spite of the best of intentions.

rahulm · Post by **rahulm** » 10 Jul 2017 16:38

Maybe personal income tax will be reduced in the enxt budget. If would,be smarter to cut rates next year and then year after which is an election year.

IIRC other countries went from pre GST state to post GST target state in 1 step. In India, it's going to me a multi step affair due to our economic stratification and political considerations.

In Oz, we went from pre GST to,one uniform 10% rate (few exceptions ), reduced personal income tax and refund for travellers in one single step but Oz is a smaller country, developed and with no electoral compulsions in this subject.

I had to file a monthly GST return (manual or electronic) , which due to the single rate was very simple irrespective of my turnover. Registered for GST means must file,return.

I had to register because my clients would mandate registration (for the input tax credits) for me to remain a supplier.

But there was absolutely no way I could even dream of gouging or profiteering. The law would be severe on me and therein lies a big difference which we don't talk about much.

IIRC for failure to file a return in time, there is penalty of AUD 550 per delayed return. (Things may have changed. I no longer have the company so not close to,it anymore )

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 10 Jul 2017 17:21

Direct taxes are progressive (slabs by income, with exemptions and credits tweaked per necessity/policy).

Indirect taxes or "flat sales taxes" are unfair because it affects poor people the most. SuSa tends to blabber about things. good thing he is only doing what he is good at (digging legal things and keeping the heat on) and NOT doing policy work.

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 10 Jul 2017 17:38

JayS wrote: A majority of SMB businesses were perhaps saving on this because they simply were not paying any taxes. The overall financial systems have become markedly simpler in last 3-5yrs. It used to be far more complicated and slower previously. Regarding being savvy, I have seen so called "Tech-savvy" or supposedly smart-ass salaried folks paying 200 bucks en masse to fill even ITR1...!

people have this phobia about some things or maybe conditioned thinking that they are not challenging. many things are becoming easy to manage online by yourselves with a little learning in the beginning.

Again when its been made clear that only 1 return needs to be filled and other two are auto generated, what's the point in repeating "36" returns per year diatribe??

..that argument is coming from the deluge of talking points flooding certain channels of information "OMG111..36 RETURNS PER YEAR..how will the small trader live

most people don't have computer..most people don't want to pay for monthly internet charges

"..

do people know that you can upload return via mobile. there will be enterprising folks who can come to you and neighboring traders, get data entry done by excel in offline mode (from paper invoices you should be keeping), and upload it for you etc..

a powerful light is now turned on and folks who were doing their own things in the dark are now whining that there is light and they can't do things like before. What they are not realising is how fast they can grow now in the light now instead of mucking around in the dark.

I think Modi should have postponed the GST implementation by a quarter or so. I understand the compulsion of having a hard limit. But GOI could have postponed the date by one quarter in say last week of June. But yes, whatever the date might have been, there would have been a section who would have waited until the last date and then cry foul saying not enough time was given.

I don't know about that. My experience is - work always expands to time. Whenever we feel we are going to miss some dates on delivery (for whatever reasons) ..we learned to not tell team until as late as possible, because the first whiff of postponing will most times lead to expanding of current work, putting even the next planned deadline in jeopardy.

The current deployment with no penalties for first few months is a good transition plan. people are herd..especially traders. adoption is slow at start but will increase exponentially because herd mentality.

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 10 Jul 2017 17:56

SaraLax wrote:One can say whatever they want

That would be the facepalm worthy thing to do. If you assert some personal right to be irresponsible, why are you any better than a price gouging trader ? You are helping them, and for all practical purposes, are an agent to them.

It's quite easy for GST to be misused . All it takes is enough people to 'say what they want' . People who act like that become witting or unwitting useful idiots to the cause of the opposition, 'oh look even the governments supporters are saying GST causes price rise! Vote for us!'

The GST is ten days old . The government is busy trying to get the thing to work. Probably the most complex task of any GST country because unlike even China, we are a federal and not unitary state . In other words it can't be done top down but only thru collaboration. And no this is not about democracy vs authoritarian. Even UK and France are unitary and not federal - everything happens too down from London and Paris . We are and will remain the biggest federal republic in history to implement a GST .

To make it work, it's important to be clear who's responsible for price rise . There's been taxes on items and services before GST. Anyone claiming a tax increase to the extent of 0 to current GST rate is explicitly stating that they never paid taxes before .

The citizens job is to report such entities, not sit around asserting that they can 'say whatever they want' . And in turn the governments job is to prosecute such entities . Make some prominent examples of harshly and the rest will fall in line .

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 10 Jul 2017 18:15

Yagnasri wrote:As per the estimates 3 to 4 Lakh Cr will be the additional revenue. Traders are not going to take that hit. If anything they are going to make money out of this. Mango people will pay it. So GoI giving significant direct tax benefits to people is one way of offsetting the hardship for at least salaried class. There is little hope of that happening.

What happened to that DTC - Direct Tax Code that was being discussed few years ago.? Slab of 5lakh, 10lakh, 20lakh for 10%, 20%, 30% tax respectively. I thought BJP was big time in favour of it during UPA 1 era, wasn't it..?

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 10 Jul 2017 18:44

Prem Kumar wrote:I recall Subramaniam Swamy stating as early as 2014 that Modi should abolish income tax and replace it with indirect taxes. But what we see are a nibble here and a nibble there by Jaitley & Baboons. Once again, there is clarity in Swamy's thought process, which is lacking in Modi.

Just like OROP, the babus will make sure that Modi comes out looking bad in GST, in spite of the best of intentions.

He has been saying this since 1991 if you believe him. He says he told this to PVNR too during liberalization but he didn't have guts to do such drastic change.

But indirect taxes are indeed regressive, as Gus mentioned above. Because that necessarily taxes lower strata more in terms of % of total income.

But I liked one suggestion that SS is suggesting all the while - make 80c limit infinite. Until people are saving in instruments which go on to capitalise the economy, the entire saving amount can be tax free. That would reduce the incentive to hide income for a lot of folks and would give some respite to salaried folks too.

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 10 Jul 2017 19:15

the "3 returns per month, 36 months per return = baboons or jetli doing an IED to bring down noble intentions of modi" is such a false statement at so many levels.

1. it is only one, the other two are auto gen

2. the way the GST works is by giving input tax credits. if you make that once a year, then a trader's capital is locked up, because he can get his money back in 2018 jan, for something that's invoiced today. How the F is that more desirable than having a monthly return? you will get your ITC only when you file return. Making it a longer interval and locking up everybody's capital and cash flow is guaranteed to be a disaster.

3. the ENTIRE point of making this online is to enable trader to do this on their own, without having to go to a govt "baboon" and the agents hanging around those corridors and pay for disputes and get harassed for dog biscuits and what not.

edit - corrected 2017 to 2018

srin · Post by **srin** » 10 Jul 2017 19:26

Why are indirect taxes regressive if they tax basic goods at a lower rate than "luxury" goods ? Or is it that our not-very-perfect GST actually less regressive than single-rate GST ?

srin · Post by **srin** » 10 Jul 2017 19:28

Gus wrote:the "3 returns per month, 36 months per return = baboons or jetli doing an IED to bring down noble intentions of modi" is such a false statement at so many levels.

1. it is only one, the other two are auto gen

2. the way the GST works is by giving input tax credits. if you make that once a year, then a trader's capital is locked up, because he can get his money back in 2017 jan, for something that's invoiced today. How the F is that more desirable than having a monthly return? you will get your ITC only when you file return. Making it a longer interval and locking up everybody's capital and cash flow is guaranteed to be a disaster.

3. the ENTIRE point of making this online is to enable trader to do this on their own, without having to go to a govt "baboon" and the agents hanging around those corridors and pay for disputes and get harassed for dog biscuits and what not.

Absolutely correct sir.

One more point - you don't need a CA to do this. A BCom grad (even MBA

) can be a Tax return preparer. See here.

srin · Post by **srin** » 10 Jul 2017 19:36

JayS wrote:
Yagnasri wrote:As per the estimates 3 to 4 Lakh Cr will be the additional revenue. Traders are not going to take that hit. If anything they are going to make money out of this. Mango people will pay it. So GoI giving significant direct tax benefits to people is one way of offsetting the hardship for at least salaried class. There is little hope of that happening.
What happened to that DTC - Direct Tax Code that was being discussed few years ago.? Slab of 5lakh, 10lakh, 20lakh for 10%, 20%, 30% tax respectively. I thought BJP was big time in favour of it during UPA 1 era, wasn't it..?

I loved the DTC for its simplicity when it was released. Even read the bare act. IIRC, everything was taxed, most exemptions were removed, except retirement funds (PF, etc) which needed to be deposited in some retirement accounts etc. Possibly the only good thing that happened in UPA-2 and under PC.

Then a parliamentary committee under Yashwant Sinha got into the act and screwed it all up. In the end, it became no different than any other budget proposal.

What I'd love to see that wasn't in the DTC is: some proportion of the tax I pay must be paid to the state I live in, and some proportion must be paid to city I live in. The hypothesis is that if people can associate direct benefit out of the taxes they pay, then they may less conduct tax avoidance.
Secondly, I want the IT dept to prepare a tax computation that I can verify and pay against. Sort of like the GSTR-1A and GSTR-2 in the GST era. Just send me an itemized bill based on your computations.

SaraLax · Post by **SaraLax** » 10 Jul 2017 19:45

Suraj wrote:
SaraLax wrote:One can say whatever they want
That would be the facepalm worthy thing to do. If you assert some personal right to be irresponsible, why are you any better than a price gouging trader ? You are helping them, and for all practical purposes, are an agent to them.

It's quite easy for GST to be misused . All it takes is enough people to 'say what they want' . People who act like that become witting or unwitting useful idiots to the cause of the opposition, 'oh look even the governments supporters are saying GST causes price rise! Vote for us!'

I will never understand why the indirect tax on even Life Term insurance policy & endowment policy premium payments need to be increased ... Is it the third time that it has increased in current NDA government's rule ?. Initial increase from 12.36% to 14% service tax and then from 14% service tax to 15% service tax and now to 18% under GST.

Same 3 step increase in monthly broadband bill too, i guess over the last 3 years.

Do you have any clue ?. Oh .. you live abroad so may be i am an idiot for asking such a question.

BTW - You sure do post in Shashi Tharoor english style !. Congrats on the same !!.

Yep .. I am quite an useful Idiot, an agent to the price gougers & other anti-India provocateurs. Where did i even assert in any of my posts that i would be irresponsible ?. Thanks a lot for all your insinuations about me. Anyway you are the moderator - so you have the BR given right to say what you want. Now - Why do i care about what you think about me or say to me. You don't face whatever situations that i face. I too don't care about whatever that happens to you.

Not that i cannot give more but just the cynical part of me that sometimes gets aroused & cries when it sees that neither me nor any of my family - get any good service from the government (but for those 2 drops of polio vaccine every year) and that mostly we salaried folks often live in India & prosper through our own hardwork - inspite of the governments in India. Maybe it is a crime in this Bharat-Rakshak forum under your moderation - to ask to be given some better education/healthcare/disaster-recovery service from the government for whatever direct & indirect taxes that i pay.

Naveen · Post by **Naveen** » 10 Jul 2017 19:55

One important point regarding the heartburn over taxing some items at 5% or 12% even though they seem essential items is that you won't get input tax credit if rate is 0%. This will create disadvantage to domestic production as imports will be non taxed.

The FinMin has released a press note today that explains this concept of import parity and input tax credit regarding sanitary napkins very well though it's a technical issue.

Traders understand this but will still outrage as the 'khujli' is not tax rates but having to declare turnover as inputs will come from a formal sector manufacturer who is now forced to declare his full sales.

All the tax arbitrage on prices in places like Chickpet and surrounding areas in Bangalore will vanish if GST is implemented across the supply chain. Let us be honest, we have knowingly or unknowingly contributed to this taxlessness in the informal sector by not demanding bills or not having the ability to demand bills.

People are complaining about 'Jetli', 'baboons' and Modi but show me a group of politicians who are willing to antagonise a core vote bank in battleground states to push this through.

Naveen · Post by **Naveen** » 10 Jul 2017 20:03

If TDS of salaried class didn't exist how many of the salaried people would have honestly declared incomes in our IT returns. Outside salary, do people declared FD and other interest income, rental income honestly?
Our honesty as a group is an outcome of helplessness and not a principled stand to pay taxes.

SaraLax · Post by **SaraLax** » 10 Jul 2017 20:14

Naveen wrote:If TDS of salaried class didn't exist how many of the salaried people would have honestly declared incomes in our IT returns. Outside salary, do people declared FD and other interest income, rental income honestly?
Our honesty as a group is an outcome of helplessness and not a principled stand to pay taxes.

Wow .. Honest people are helpless people ?.
Honest people don't have any moral principals or a conscience which pricks them when they cheat the government. Is that the case ?.

Do you like to be cheated by some other person ?. If answer is NO - then the next question is - Do you want to cheat others ?. If answer is NO - does this mean .. that a person is honest due to his helplessness ? or is the person honest due to his/her brought-up or/and due to his/her sense of fairness or/and the morals learned in whatever way his/her experiences had an effect on their life ?.

Naveen · Post by **Naveen** » 10 Jul 2017 20:23

Yes, honest people are helpless people....irrespective of the source of their honesty (upbringing or otherwise).
Because people in our peer group will not declare the correct incomes. And I'm not even talking about professions where it is easy to mask real incomes.
And please go easy on the question marks....I'm in the same boat as you but helpless as can see many of my peers not declaring entail incomes or interest incomes or capital gains...that's also cheating btw.
So I'm all for linking the hell out of all income sources through Aadhaar, PAN or any other tool. Only then can we even expect direct taxes to come down and really honest tax payers see the satisfaction of having declared true incomes all these years.

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 10 Jul 2017 20:24

SaraLax : thanks for making your position clearer . You're not here on this thread to discuss GST . You really don't care about that. Rather, you have a general grievance with the government because of some other actions .

This thread for you is simply a place for you to vent whatever you like, with no regard to the consequences . If others in turn are incited by your anger and post off topic too, that's still not your problem - mods are supposed to go clean up while you have the satisfaction, while you get to rant wherever you feel like ranting .

Sorry but that's not how it works . There's actually a thread for whining generally about the governments actions . Please use it . Or log out for a while, and do something that makes you happy .

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 10 Jul 2017 20:34

Quite a lot of folks do not even know that TDS is not the same as "filing your return". People just assume that TDS is done, that's all. This is the level of tax awareness among even the educated white collar folks.

SaraLax · Post by **SaraLax** » 10 Jul 2017 23:14

Suraj wrote:SaraLax : thanks for making your position clearer . You're not here on this thread to discuss GST . You really don't care about that. Rather, you have a general grievance with the government because of some other actions .

This thread for you is simply a place for you to vent whatever you like, with no regard to the consequences . If others in turn are incited by your anger and post off topic too, that's still not your problem - mods are supposed to go clean up while you have the satisfaction, while you get to rant wherever you feel like ranting .

Sorry but that's not how it works . There's actually a thread for whining generally about the governments actions . Please use it . Or log out for a while, and do something that makes you happy .

Thanks for all the unsolicited advise.

On the one hand this thread is named "GST - Discussion on all aspects" while on the other hand the thread's moderator is asking me to stop indicating the negative aspects of GST like the sudden price increase and its effect on the common man and more importantly the important consequence being the potential loss of power for the current NDA regime in the coming Lok Sabha elections in 2019 due to sharp price increase in many of the commonly consumed services (whether in restaurants or movies or entertainment joints or even juice shops).

Mr.Moderator - Either rename this thread to "GST - Discussions (but not on aspects like sharp price increases or on Common Man's reaction to GST)" or allow resident Indian members like me to indicate the negative aspects of GST based on our experiences. Don't shut me off just because what i am stating is not what you want to hear.

One hour before ... i had a glass of sweet lime juice in a juice shop that i have been frequenting for last 3 years. Straight 10% increase in price of sweet lime juice due to GST. 2 Rupees increase may not hit the consuming people much but a 7 rupees increase is quite visible and a business-draining price increase too. How can any government even justify this sort of increase in the price of even fresh fruit juices. I am hearing the same is the status in other nearby juice shops too. I will investigate more and come back with info on whether there exist juice shops that are selling at lower rate of increased prices & still complying with GST needs. No wonder this shop had a board in a prime place indicating that the sudden increase in price is not to increase the profit earned by the shop but was actually due to enforcement of GST by the government. In a place like Chennai which is quite hot & humid (meaning you need to replenish the fluids in your body more often) - these types of sudden 10% increase in even fresh fruit juice prices can be jarring to accept for the common man, for college students and for any thirsty person. While there exist other non-GST-affected options (like tender coconut or home made juices) to quench one's thirst but the common man would never ever appreciate a GST that is leading to increase in prices across various consumption aspects of his livelihood.

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 10 Jul 2017 23:23

all those who have increased prices to inflate margins under the guise of GST, are either going to come down or get undercut by another enterprising trader.

are we to make national level tax reforms based on some temporary shenanigans by some traders in some industries?

i had a glass of sweet lime juice in a juice shop that i have been frequenting for last 3 years. Straight 10% increase in price of sweet lime juice due to GST. 2 Rupees increase may not hit the consuming people much but a 7 rupees increase is quite visible and a business-draining price increase too. How can any government even justify this sort of increase in the price of even fresh fruit juices.

so you were getting lime juice for 70 rupees. and now it is 77?

and you are representative of "common man" only if by that you mean solid middle class and above. That is not common, man.

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 10 Jul 2017 23:25

SaraLax, stick to GST and you're good. I let you off despite ad hominem attacks on me. There won't be a second chance.

SaraLax · Post by **SaraLax** » 10 Jul 2017 23:28

Gus wrote:all those who have increased prices to inflate margins under the guise of GST, are either going to come down or get undercut by another enterprising trader.

are we to make national level tax reforms based on some temporary shenanigans by some traders in some industries?

i had a glass of sweet lime juice in a juice shop that i have been frequenting for last 3 years. Straight 10% increase in price of sweet lime juice due to GST. 2 Rupees increase may not hit the consuming people much but a 7 rupees increase is quite visible and a business-draining price increase too. How can any government even justify this sort of increase in the price of even fresh fruit juices.

so you were getting lime juice for 70 rupees. and now it is 77?

and you are representative of "common man" only if by that you mean solid middle class and above. That is not common, man.

I don't worry about your ROFLs.
The juice price actually shot up from 55 to 67 for a take-away and i am indicating only the GST % related price increase which may actually be more than just 10% !.

SaraLax · Post by **SaraLax** » 10 Jul 2017 23:35

Suraj wrote:SaraLax, stick to GST and you're good. I let you off despite ad hominem attacks on me. There won't be a second chance.

Ad Hominem : Appealing to personal considerations (rather than to fact or reason)

I am giving proper facts from the ground based on my experiences. Please call me out if i fudge with the values i am giving or if i use negative attributes in calling out others (including yourself).

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 10 Jul 2017 23:35

10% increase to 7 Rs means 70 and 77. That is math.

Calm down, and maybe have some more of the lime juice.

Maybe you should ask for his TIN status and if he means to file taxes and clarify that or go to a place which does file taxes.

A tax evader is a cheat. The money that he does not pay is directly causing increase to the the money that YOU pay as taxes and in some ways related to the poor services that YOU suffer from the govt.

Yet, you are here making his case. If that is not

worthy..then what is.

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 10 Jul 2017 23:41

SaraLax wrote:
Suraj wrote:SaraLax, stick to GST and you're good. I let you off despite ad hominem attacks on me. There won't be a second chance.
Ad Hominem : Appealing to personal considerations (rather than to fact or reason)
I am giving proper facts from the ground based on my experiences. Please call me out if i fudge with the values i am giving or if i use negative attributes in calling out others (including yourself).

Since proper facts involve namecalling me and associating me with political characters, and in addition you're willfully disrupting the thread , please enjoy a one week ban .

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 11 Jul 2017 00:04

It's a free market and prices will settle back at an equilibrium that customer and trader will arrive at when the dust settles. temporary pricing shenanigans like this is part of the game.

if a local population of folks (traders, consumers and everyone) cannot figure out that Rs 77 for a lime juice is too much and somebody is not cornering the market with a Rs 65 juice - then it means people are fine with that price. Both these situations are not the fault of GST.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 11 Jul 2017 00:25

Gus wrote:Quite a lot of folks do not even know that TDS is not the same as "filing your return". People just assume that TDS is done, that's all. This is the level of tax awareness among even the educated white collar folks.

Even if you do not have taxable income, in any particular year, its best to file a "nil" return. Some places ask for three years tax returns and there is no way of getting around this requirement/condition. No amount of explanation will wash.