China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 07 Jul 2017 16:48

That's exactly why it is superior. It is stealthy.

chola · Post by **chola** » 08 Jul 2017 08:56

Could be a nice intel of the chini ex-Varyag carrier, videos taken by a reporter attending a reception in the hangar:

Good footage of the lift and entrance to the carrier:

Inside, some details of the Su-33 rip-off, the thing is huge:

They did good work on the carrier, it looks clean and serviceable unlike the Kuznetsov.

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 08 Jul 2017 17:07

They may have.. I wouldn't be too worried about the clean part

chola · Post by **chola** » 08 Jul 2017 19:36

Manish_P wrote:They may have.. I wouldn't be too worried about the clean part

True that. Also true for the rest of their military since they haven't fought in decades. Lots of clean shiny toys. But then again, their strategy is designed to intimidate not actually fight.

Still, I wonder if we missed an opportunity with Varyag. It is a far better design than the Gorshkov but more importantly us taking it and keeping it from the PRC would have postponed the chini carrier program for decades.

In fact, considering the second chini carrier is a near copy as well, without Varyag the PLAN might never have started a carrier program.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 08 Jul 2017 22:33

New video: India-China standoff at Doklam plateau.

Geographical info courtesy Rohit Vats
http://vatsrohit.blogspot.in/2017/07/do ... l?spref=tw

https://youtu.be/6IXlLdtKIxQ

DrRatnadip · Post by **DrRatnadip** » 11 Jul 2017 22:54

http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1055927.shtml

Reform to downsize PLA Army, boost navy numbers

The People's Liberation Army (PLA) will downsize its army to under one million, and evenly proportion the PLA army and other services, the PLA's official media said.

Jun Zhengping Studio, a WeChat account run by the PLA Daily, the official newspaper of the Chinese military, published an article on structural reform in the military on Tuesday, saying that "the old military structure, where the army accounts for the vast majority, will be replaced after the reform."

"This is the first time that active PLA Army personnel would be reduced to below one million," wrote the article.

It added that the number of troops in the PLA Navy, PLA Strategic Support Force and the PLA Rocket Force will be increased, while the PLA Air Force's active service personnel will remain the same.

Ministry of Defense data shows the PLA Army has about 850,000 combat troops in 2013. No official numbers of the total population of PLA Army were released. The total PLA personnel was about 2.3 million before the country announced a cut of 300,000 troops in 2015.

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 11 Jul 2017 22:59

Are they less worried about India? Only adversary against which their army size matters is us. I don't think they are dreaming about beating us in Arabian Sea and BoB using their navy.

Marten · Post by **Marten** » 11 Jul 2017 23:08

Karthik S wrote:Are they less worried about India? Only adversary against which their army size matters is us. I don't think they are dreaming about beating us in Arabian Sea and BoB using their navy.

PLA is defensive in nature. PLAN is offensive in nature.
If one had to defend trade lines, would one also not prefer a naval route since most of their GDP relies on it?
Not sure though if the PLAN wants more of its Admirals to follow Zheng, but defending trade routes by establishing bases across all of these routes makes sense.

DrRatnadip · Post by **DrRatnadip** » 11 Jul 2017 23:31

It is not easy to guess what is in yellow lizard's mind..But considering our slow pace of aquiring essential equipements we must speed up naval modernization.. Serious national effort is required to improve our submarine fleet..

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 12 Jul 2017 01:13

DrRatnadip wrote:http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1055927.shtml

Reform to downsize PLA Army, boost navy numbers

The People's Liberation Army (PLA) will downsize its army to under one million, and evenly proportion the PLA army and other services, the PLA's official media said.

It added that the number of troops in the PLA Navy, PLA Strategic Support Force and the PLA Rocket Force will be increased, while the PLA Air Force's active service personnel will remain the same.

Ministry of Defense data shows the PLA Army has about 850,000 combat troops in 2013. No official numbers of the total population of PLA Army were released. The total PLA personnel was about 2.3 million before the country announced a cut of 300,000 troops in 2015.

This doesn't necessarily mean reduction in total active troops but could be transfer from Army to Navy. They could reduce the size of the Army and increase PLA Marine Corps which comes under their Navy

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 12 Jul 2017 03:49

Brilliant write up from S Jha. Don't read the last line first.
http://thediplomat.com/2017/07/chinas-c ... -of-india/

srai · Post by **srai** » 12 Jul 2017 06:28

SaiK wrote:Brilliant write up from S Jha. Don't read the last line first.
http://thediplomat.com/2017/07/chinas-c ... -of-india/

...
Indian military sources believe that the 77th and the 76th could concentrate the equivalent of up to seven division-sized formations (indicative figures, since the PLAGF is currently reorganizing itself into a brigade-based structure) in TAR within a week’s time with one “rapid reaction division” being inducted into Lhasa in as little as 24-36 hours. Using the 1,142 km long Qinghai-Tibet Railway, the three main highways that converge on Lhasa, as well as aviation infrastructure, the PLAGF could also bring 12 divisions into TAR in around a month’s time. For a much larger campaign that would see multiple fronts opened against India on the LAC, the PLAGF could mobilize up to 32 divisions in a single campaigning season and these could be sustained in TAR for a month (although it is debatable whether the PLAGF would really want to send deploy so many troops in TAR).

China can now not only mobilize such forces against India in a relatively short period of time but can also sustain them for relatively long periods of time. The significant number of camps that have come up in TAR simply plug into existing civilian water and power utility infrastructure. Incidentally, the Chinese have built hyperbaric chambers with storehouses in some of these camps to facilitate the rapid acclimatization of some troops inducted from lower altitudes in the event of a contingency. Apart from specialized storage (many underground), massive dual-use logistics centers, such as the one at Nagqu, have been constructed which also host command and control facilities.
...

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 12 Jul 2017 07:56

the report sounds like a union of all the mythical tales of the Han and rightly belongs as a leading exhibit in the lungi shiver thread.

I like the author, maybe he was trying to rattle bars of cage and wake the slumbering elements in the establishment ...

sustain 32 divisions for a month? or even 7 in a week ? one only has to look back at the OIF and ODS to look at the scale of the logistics involved to support a 3 or 4 mechanized corps in a area with excellent highways, ports, airports and driveable desert and COMPLETE AIR SUPERIORITY imposed by the usaf...and depots in southern europe which are probably nearer than the cheen mainland to western tibet. there are also lean manned bases with big runways in Saudi used to stockpile war stores from the cold war days (to fight a soviet move to gulf via iran or iraq) - were certainly put to use in ODS.

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 12 Jul 2017 08:18

How does hyperbaric chamber availability speed up acclimtisation?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 12 Jul 2017 08:30

sanjaykumar wrote:How does hyperbaric chamber availability speed up acclimtisation?

I keep saying this but Saurav Jha may not understand.

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 12 Jul 2017 08:36

Samurai Jha has an interesting twitter feed. We all need to learn so not a big problem.

KrishnaK · Post by **KrishnaK** » 12 Jul 2017 08:39

shiv wrote:
sanjaykumar wrote:How does hyperbaric chamber availability speed up acclimtisation?
I keep saying this but Saurav Jha may not understand.

Use of a hypobaric chamber for pre-acclimatization before climbing Mount Everest

Climbing Mount Everest needs an acclimatization period of 3 to 4 weeks between 3000 and 6000 m. In order to reduce this period of time spent in dangerous conditions, an experience of pre-acclimatization was performed with 5 elite alpinists (4 male, 1 female), aged 30 +/- 4 yrs (mean +/- SD), before their attempt to climb Mount Everest. Subjects first remained one week on Mont-Blanc (between 4350 and 4807 m), then spent a total of 38 hours in a hypobaric chamber (in 4 consecutive days) from 5000 to 8500 m standard altitude. Then, they flew to Kathmandu and reached 7800 m five days only after leaving the base camp. The pre-acclimatization period showed a 12% increase in hemoglobin concentration, and no change in ventilatory response to hypoxia. Arterial oxygen saturation at submaximal exercise in hypoxia (FIO2 = 0.115) increased from 75 +/- 4 to 82 +/- 3%, probably because of an efficient ventilatory acclimatization. On Mount Everest, the speed of ascent was very high (5600 m of altitude gain in 6 days), knowing that in conventional expeditions, 12 to 32 days are generally necessary to reach, safe, the same altitude. In conclusion, pre-acclimatization seems to have triggered efficient mechanisms which allowed climbers to save 1 to 3 weeks of time in mountain conditions.

srai · Post by **srai** » 12 Jul 2017 08:54

^^^
Pretty standard practice for any serious mountain climber. Saves time at climbing destination. Prep work ahead of expedition.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 12 Jul 2017 08:58

KrishnaK wrote:
shiv wrote: I keep saying this but Saurav Jha may not understand.
Use of a hypobaric chamber for pre-acclimatization before climbing Mount Everest

Climbing Mount Everest needs an acclimatization period of 3 to 4 weeks between 3000 and 6000 m. In order to reduce this period of time spent in dangerous conditions, an experience of pre-acclimatization was performed with 5 elite alpinists (4 male, 1 female), aged 30 +/- 4 yrs (mean +/- SD), before their attempt to climb Mount Everest. Subjects first remained one week on Mont-Blanc (between 4350 and 4807 m), then spent a total of 38 hours in a hypobaric chamber (in 4 consecutive days) from 5000 to 8500 m standard altitude. Then, they flew to Kathmandu and reached 7800 m five days only after leaving the base camp. The pre-acclimatization period showed a 12% increase in hemoglobin concentration, and no change in ventilatory response to hypoxia. Arterial oxygen saturation at submaximal exercise in hypoxia (FIO2 = 0.115) increased from 75 +/- 4 to 82 +/- 3%, probably because of an efficient ventilatory acclimatization. On Mount Everest, the speed of ascent was very high (5600 m of altitude gain in 6 days), knowing that in conventional expeditions, 12 to 32 days are generally necessary to reach, safe, the same altitude. In conclusion, pre-acclimatization seems to have triggered efficient mechanisms which allowed climbers to save 1 to 3 weeks of time in mountain conditions.

They spend time in hypobaric chambers not hyperbaric

That means they get acclimatized with low oxygen pressures before climbing. Hyperbaric is to feed oxygen at higher pressures which is what the Chinese do on their trains to Tibet and for their soldiers

srai · Post by **srai** » 12 Jul 2017 09:04

Let SJha know of his incorrect terminology. I would think he means hypobaric chamber.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 12 Jul 2017 09:08

srai wrote: Let SJha know of his incorrect terminology. I would think he means hypobaric chamber.

No.

Saurav Jha is right in saying that the Chinese use hyperbaric chambers. But they only delay acclimatization so he is wrong in claiming that it speeds up acclimatization. They (HYPER-baric chambers) are used by the Chinese at high altitude for comfort and preventing high altitude sickness for Han babies who are there on temporary postings. High altitude is already "hypobaric" so it is pointless setting up hypobaric chambers at high altitude. Open air is hypobaric up there

But high pressure delay acclimatization. Low pressures (used by mountaineers at normal altitudes) speed up acclimatization. The army does approximately what the mountaineers do - but they don't need chambers. There is a graded ascent

srai · Post by **srai** » 12 Jul 2017 09:15

^^^
I would think both techniques (hyper and hypo) would used.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 12 Jul 2017 09:21

srai wrote:^^^
I would think both techniques would used.

Why do you think so?

The hypobaric chambers would have to be at low altitude - in Chengdu. There are no reports of any army using (for tens of thousands of men) the techniques used for half a dozen mountaineers who only need to go up and come down within hours.

The men have to stay for months. So they are first stationed at 3500meters for 2 weeks and then moved higher.

On the other hand there are many reports of hyperbaric facilities used by the Chinese on their trains and in their barracks. On the border the soldiers wil breath low pressure for half day and get higher pressure for the night. This will keep them comfortable but it delays acclimatization. This is not a problem if the soldiers are there for many weeks at peacetime But if 10,000 soldiers are pushed in for an emergency these chambers are not going to help

India has low altitude regions within 50 km of the border. For Tibet the lowest altitude regions are 2000 km away in mainland China. Tibet averages 4500 meters and the mountain regions including Aksai Chin - 5000 meters. Altitude sickness tends to increase at 3500 meters and beyond. even acclimatized men get it

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 12 Jul 2017 09:42

it is not possible to take 1000s of reasonably fit lowlanders and "train" them to the levels of a pro league mountaineer who are self selected volunteers from the gene pool who like it up there.
that is a limitation of every army, including india. a small subset of people in any large army will have the dna , disposition, skills and training for proper high level mountaineering.

but to cheens somewhat advantage they do not need proper mountaineering skills or eqpt to fight on the tibet plataeu or its continuations in india like DBG, demchok, north sikkim, but they do need some getting used to the thin air. our needs go a high as 23,000ft a height at which no other army maintains a regular post.

engines of all stripes will also derate and need special handling in the cold and thin air conditions. the care and upkeep needs will be more than a nice warm garage in chengdu or chongqing

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 12 Jul 2017 09:47

If we are looking for Chinese mobilization we need to look in Satellite images for movements at Golmud from where the military supplies come to Lhasa by rail

36°22'23.96"N 94°53'46.17"E

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 12 Jul 2017 09:50

6 cartosats and 2 risats should be able to guarantee 1 visit every day over all nodes of interest.
no sign of our artillery divs moving out of their depots and no train cancellations and mass truck fleet requisitions in the north means they have not done any extra mobilization yet.

GOI knows we must respond instantly with counter-mobilization else it will just encourage them to attack and things will spiral into a war. deterrence is rapid mobilization to raise costs.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 12 Jul 2017 09:51

In addition to what Singha says above - a little revision of Chinese logistics lines
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wUkKcSBtss

DavidD · Post by **DavidD** » 12 Jul 2017 10:16

sanjaykumar wrote:How does hyperbaric chamber availability speed up acclimtisation?

Not directly, but it allows you to take more risks by bringing more men to higher altitudes faster. Usually this would result in more cases of altitude sickness, which can be life threatening, but now the severe cases can be treated safely in hyperbaric chambers. In short, it reduces the risks of the consequences of bringing a lot of men to high altitudes. Using them for comfort would be so stupid that only one who's underestimating his opponent would believe. In any case there's no way to build so many hyper or hypobaric chambers for that matter to accomodate even the existing men posted there let alone in the event of a troops surge, so they can only be used to treat severely ill soldiers.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 12 Jul 2017 10:35

DavidD wrote:
sanjaykumar wrote:How does hyperbaric chamber availability speed up acclimtisation?
Not directly, but it allows you to take more risks by bringing more men to higher altitudes faster. Usually this would result in more cases of altitude sickness, which can be life threatening, but now the severe cases can be treated safely in hyperbaric chambers. In short, it reduces the risks of the consequences of bringing a lot of men to high altitudes. Using them for comfort would be so stupid that only one who's underestimating his opponent would believe. In any case there's no way to build so many hyper or hypobaric chambers for that matter to accomodate even the existing men posted there let alone in the event of a troops surge, so they can only be used to treat severely ill soldiers.

There are two types of "hyperbaric" facilties.

Hyperbaric barracks are oxygen enriched barracks (like your trains to Lhasa) where soldiers spend some time. Hyperbaric chambers used in high altitude sickness are different. They are a therapeutic facility used in emergencies pending evacuation

There are interim areas in Tibet where partial acclimatization can occur. But oxygen enriched barracks cannot aid quick acclimatization because acclimatization is a change in the body where the bone marrow responds to low oxygen by producing more red blood cells, apart from a few other changes in the circulatory system. An O2 enriched environment will only delay this process, and barracks will not be used for treating an acute emergency

And oxygen enriched barracks will definitely serve as a comfort zone because symptoms of mild altitude sickness like insomnia, dizzyness and headaches will be relieved. But men who need this relief will take longer to get adjusted to week long patrols without the comfort of the barracks. And if the Chinese government keeps party officials in uniform on the frontline - I suspect those people will live in the comfort of oxygen enriched barracks

India's much maligned DRDO long ago designed a one-man hyperbaric "HAPO" (High Altitude Pulmonary Oedema) chamber to facilitate safe evacuation

chola · Post by **chola** » 12 Jul 2017 13:12

Teleport?!

https://amp-businessinsider-com.cdn.amp ... net-2017-7

Chinese scientists just teleported an object into Earth's orbit for the first time
Sarah Marquart, Futurism

Jul 11, 2017, 6:55 PM E

srai · Post by **srai** » 12 Jul 2017 13:20

shiv wrote:
srai wrote:^^^
I would think both techniques would used.
Why do you think so?

...

One to treat altitude sickness and the other for acclimatisation. There would multiple locations for these. Lowland bases would have hypo facilities with some in higher elevations for even higher altitude acclimatization. There would be some percentage who will get sick (with or without training) and they would need hyper facilities.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 12 Jul 2017 13:31

athletes like virat kohli also do aerobic workouts with a mask to simulate hypo and build endurance at lesser O2. this could be done enmasse at lower alt.

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 12 Jul 2017 13:35

Swimmer Phelps was the most famous who used hypobaric chambers to sleep in to increase rbc count. It is a widely used practice. Hypobaric chambers in the plains to start acclimatization can drastically reduce time needed to do it in Tibet. Hyperbaric chambers in the high altitude areas can then be used to treat, attenuate altitude related sickness. China is the world leader in the manufacture of the latter. Shouldn't be very difficult for them to crank out warehouse level hypobaric rooms to mass troop acclimatisation. Easier to do it at night while everyone is sleeping.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 12 Jul 2017 15:16

srai wrote:
shiv wrote: Why do you think so?

...
One to treat altitude sickness and the other for acclimatisation. There would multiple locations for these. Lowland bases would have hypo facilities with some in higher elevations for even higher altitude acclimatization. There would be some percentage who will get sick (with or without training) and they would need hyper facilities.

I don't think any country's armed forces maintain this because there are only 3-4 countries that need hi altitude acclimatization and have the required access to such altitudes. India, Pakistan, China and maybe Chile. Hyperbaric treatment chambers are well known and have been around for a long time in the treatment of the "bends" for deep sea divers, Acute high altitude sickness, some severe infections, some circulatory disorders and some cancers.

As regards hypobaric chambers you stated:

srai wrote:^^^
Pretty standard practice for any serious mountain climber. Saves time at climbing destination. Prep work ahead of expedition.

I was unable to find any links to any commercial hypobaric chamber facilities and I could find only links to research facilities in which mountaineers have been tested. Could you point me to a list of nations with hypobaric facilities that serious mountaineers can routinely use? Perhaps you do some mountaineering yourself and you might know.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 12 Jul 2017 15:34

Singha wrote:athletes like virat kohli also do aerobic workouts with a mask to simulate hypo and build endurance at lesser O2. this could be done enmasse at lower alt.

This is dangerous thing to do. That can kill even fit people unless this is done under good supervision. I would advise my young and fit friends not to use one. The market that promotes stuff for young men looking to build muscle or get fit is full of a lot of dangerous shit - including energy drinks that can cause sudden death.

That said, by definition you don't do "aerobic" exercises in an anaerobic or hypo aerobic environment. If you reduce oxygen you are increasing your body's need to work anaerobically - which it does - as it builds up lactic acid. Swimming is probably just as good in developing the same or better breathing benefits

One of the changes of high altitude training is an increase in the red blood cell count, mediated by a natural body chemical called Erythropoietin. Injections of that stuff would mimic that effect. India manufactures the stuff by the way. Look out for huge orders from China

srai · Post by **srai** » 12 Jul 2017 16:33

shiv wrote:
srai wrote: One to treat altitude sickness and the other for acclimatisation. There would multiple locations for these. Lowland bases would have hypo facilities with some in higher elevations for even higher altitude acclimatization. There would be some percentage who will get sick (with or without training) and they would need hyper facilities.
I don't think any country's armed forces maintain this because there are only 3-4 countries that need hi altitude acclimatization and have the required access to such altitudes. India, Pakistan, China and maybe Chile. Hyperbaric treatment chambers are well known and have been around for a long time in the treatment of the "bends" for deep sea divers, Acute high altitude sickness, some severe infections, some circulatory disorders and some cancers.

As regards hypobaric chambers you stated:
srai wrote:^^^
Pretty standard practice for any serious mountain climber. Saves time at climbing destination. Prep work ahead of expedition.
I was unable to find any links to any commercial hypobaric chamber facilities and I could find only links to research facilities in which mountaineers have been tested. Could you point me to a list of nations with hypobaric facilities that serious mountaineers can routinely use? Perhaps you do some mountaineering yourself and you might know.

They are everywhere

Etc.

On the other note: Yes, when I was a bit younger I was into mountaineering.

darshhan · Post by **darshhan** » 12 Jul 2017 17:07

shiv wrote:
sanjaykumar wrote:How does hyperbaric chamber availability speed up acclimtisation?
I keep saying this but Saurav Jha may not understand.

Shiv, actually the hans should have tried the reverse. Rarefied chambers in the lowland. That would have been better to acclimatize the han boys.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 12 Jul 2017 17:20

If you reduce oxygen you are increasing your body's need to work anaerobically - which it does - as it builds up lactic acid. Swimming is probably just as good in developing the same or better breathing benefits

well maybe thats the idea - if he is running faster than his aerobic threshold (which for a pro league guy like him could be 15kmph) he will be in anaerobic zone even without a mask. the mask might be to force into anaerobic zone at a lower speed or ++ the work post his natural threshold. the position of his back leg on the side photo indicates he is running very fast like 20kmph. he is doing interval training not a prolonged run....routine for sprinters and middle distance athletes. even marathoners do it for strength and finishing speed.

while he can handle this, I would agree that most of us cannot. btw amitabh bacchan wore it in a movie Pink recently.

One of the changes of high altitude training is an increase in the red blood cell count, mediated by a natural body chemical called Erythropoietin. Injections of that stuff would mimic that effect. India manufactures the stuff by the way. Look out for huge orders from China

it comes in little red pre-loaded syringes right? i used to buy them for my late father. his kidneys had failed, which somehow affects the bone marrows production of RBC, which made his blood counts low , hence the periodic injections.

i think EPO is used by athletes and cyclists to blood dope also.

Paul · Post by **Paul** » 12 Jul 2017 18:23

As long as civilians are allowed in Nathu La, means under control.

Repeated statements by Jaishankar calling for mutual talks indicates push for diplomatic solution.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 12 Jul 2017 20:08

srai wrote: They are everywhere

http://altitudetraining.com

http://altitudeaustralia.com.au

https://www.altitudecentre.com
Etc.

OK thanks. Very informative but all of them appear to be inadequate for Himalayan heights and mainly aimed at athlete training. They train at around 2700 meters/9000 feet. which is a little higher than Ooty or Simla. 9000 feet is liveable but not quite the the 3500 meters/11,500 feet where soldiers acclimatization must begin - that is where altitude sickness starts becoming an issue. But this stage can be shortened by such training I guess - not eliminated. After acclimatization to 3500 meters soldiers go up to 4500 meters and higher and need further acclimatization.

One of those sites lists the ability to simulate 30,000 feet which which human life is unsustainable except for short periods. But this appears to be emergency training for pilots for high altitude decompression