LCA: News & Discussions - October 2016

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 12 Jul 2017 14:06

>>Well, techniquely it is our second after Marut.

yes but the key marut design inputs were from kurt tank and a few of his men and the senior indians involved then, who must have been in 40s or late 30s would have retired by the time Tejas project got funding around 1988. we needed the Marut to be successful and a Marut2 in between to keep the bloodlines and knowledge base alive.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 12 Jul 2017 14:11

despite the brickbats , one of the things bada bhai has proven is that his brains trust has a grasp on scale and production - from running of the worlds biggest refining and petrochem business to rolling out one of the worlds largest and busiest 4G networks, he has proven he can source the right talent and technical help and deliver a "solution"

just money is not the issue, there are billionaire kids who are sunk into drugs and despair. their father used to sell share forms on the footpath and from there to now is a long long way. sons have ruined what fathers built, and some dont even try, but these two have stuck to the fight and not run away to a soft life in massa like so many rich sons do.

just to give a context, they have purchased some 100,000 small network devices from netz and to hook them perhaps a 1000 more larger boxes. keeping that kind of network up 24x7 is a operational challenge and only a dozen or so operators worldwide have that scale like verizon , at&t, china telecom, china unicom, KDDI, ntt ...

so given the orders, I am sure he can deliver, he might poach from HAL and other places to seed the venture and these people will deliver a lot more probably with the right org culture and benefits.

chola · Post by **chola** » 12 Jul 2017 14:26

Singha wrote:>>Well, techniquely it is our second after Marut.

yes but the key marut design inputs were from kurt tank and a few of his men and the senior indians involved then, who must have been in 40s or late 30s would have retired by the time Tejas project got funding around 1988. we needed the Marut to be successful and a Marut2 in between to keep the bloodlines and knowledge base alive.

Yes, that is why I wonder if our culture -- especially when given the power of babudom -- can preserve practical institutional knowledge (not the corrupt kind of IK like schemes to fleece people.)

Should it not have been obvious to keep alive that kind of knowledge and ability? The chinis certainly did. Look at their institution like a CAC which kept alive its core ability from J-6 (ripoff of MiG-19) all the way to J-20. Or Japan, after the US dismantled their war machine after WWII Kawasaki and Mitsubishi are at it producing aircraft again.

Confucian government agencies seem better at preserving these abilities.

chola · Post by **chola** » 12 Jul 2017 14:46

Singha wrote:despite the brickbats , one of the things bada bhai has proven is that his brains trust has a grasp on scale and production - from running of the worlds biggest refining and petrochem business to rolling out one of the worlds largest and busiest 4G networks, he has proven he can source the right talent and technical help and deliver a "solution"

just money is not the issue, there are billionaire kids who are sunk into drugs and despair. their father used to sell share forms on the footpath and from there to now is a long long way. sons have ruined what fathers built, and some dont even try, but these two have stuck to the fight and not run away to a soft life in massa like so many rich sons do.

just to give a context, they have purchased some 100,000 small network devices from netz and to hook them perhaps a 1000 more larger boxes. keeping that kind of network up 24x7 is a operational challenge and only a dozen or so operators worldwide have that scale like verizon , at&t, china telecom, china unicom, KDDI, ntt ...

so given the orders, I am sure he can deliver, he might poach from HAL and other places to seed the venture and these people will deliver a lot more probably with the right org culture and benefits.

Exactly! Global competition have made the brothers Ambani masters who have transcended the culture. Not just the bada bai but look at all the NRI CEOs in the West's most iconic and competitive firms.

In fact, you WANT them to poach orders from HAL -- on merit, not just because of GOI directives.

You give them a chance to compete against HAL and even if they don't dominate, it will give you a far more efficient system nationally because HAL will be forced to get off its arse to survive.

The truth is HAL should have a massive lead over any private sector player from experience alone. So you want the bada bai and their private sector colleagues to not only poach orders but also TALENT from HAL so they could be put to better use. I think there are multitudes of talented competitent people trapped under the thumbs of fossilized or simply corrupt babus who can do great things once a new opportunity is given to them. That is where competition and the private sector is so inportant.

You want a churning, aggressive sector that can innovate and produce on a dime.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 12 Jul 2017 15:00

a good example of the "right stuff" we need

http://www.hondajet.com/Company/
In 1986, a young Honda engineer named Michimasa Fujino crystallized that vision when Honda initiated research and development into an advanced, air-bound Honda. After four decades of both passion and hard work, the HondaJet creator has nearly completed his vision as the president and CEO of Honda Aircraft Company.

HondaJet was truly born from the power of dreams — the power that drove our innovations in aircraft design from thought to drawing board to flight. HondaJet began as an intellectual contemplation and developed into a series of questions: How could a light jet become more efficient, more elegant, more advanced?

Experimentation, exploration, and research ensued — and the HondaJet vision was realized through design innovations that create an integrated, technologically advanced aircraft. The realization of this dream is due to equal parts romance and pragmatism.

they were able to work with GE to develop their own jet engine - a fairly small core team looking at the pic.
http://jalopnik.com/honda-sets-aviation ... 1692242887

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 12 Jul 2017 15:01

and they are not the heavies in japan - mitsubishi and kawasaki do far more , but the env there nurtured this young venture and team to realize its dream.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 12 Jul 2017 15:10

Zynda wrote:
JayS wrote:I would say perhaps we should consider ADA merging with a pvt company who will set up manufacturing plant. AMCA could be handed over to this entity. GOI can own 49% stake in it to bankroll the initial investment. Suppose SE MII is coming anyway, whoever is doing it can be considered for merger with ADA. We could have two Fighter developers with us. Let the second one diversify in Civil Jets and HAL can keep Helicopters.
^+108. ADA have currently built up some pretty good expertise in Aerospace design, systems integration and project management. Would save a prospective private company significant expense...But I have to mention that many of the capabilities ADA have currently is not in isolation but was built up working with various agencies. So the challenge of a private entity working with Govt institution will still remain but its a huge step in the right direction.

True. ADA is a small organisation of mere 700 engineers and program management folks. The real work has always happened in NAL/HAL/DRDO labs. But that work can still be sub-contracted to the same govt agencies on commercial terms. The Pvt company pays for it.

I would also like IAF (likewise IA, IN already does so) to have ultimate ownership of the program management of the Fighter or Heli program being made for them. They need to invest men and money in the program and the MoD should also let AFs drive the program, not some idiot babu from MoD on 6-month tenure who can't tell head from the tail of the program. IAF/IA need to institutionalise this project management in them.

chola · Post by **chola** » 12 Jul 2017 15:15

Singha wrote:and they are not the heavies in japan - mitsubishi and kawasaki do far more , but the env there nurtured this young venture and team to realize its dream.

Japan really is a marvel. Stereotypical Confucian ant-like population that is powerfully disciplined and loyal to its institutions -- salarymen will literally work themselves to death for their companies, just like their kamikaze warriors will do for their nation.

Yet they have this rich vein of individualistic dream and, as the article states, romance that can drive innovation like the HondaJet. You actually could see this romance and imagination in their anime and manga.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 12 Jul 2017 15:29

NAL should imo be merged with IISC-IIT complex. they will get a steady stream of the best Phd students available in field for long term projects and the benefit of freely moving around people and using the II* resources. plus UG interns can do other work like developing tools and packages.

remaining as a isolated ivory tower accessible only to the inner wheels of govt is not possible even for huge universities.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 12 Jul 2017 15:36

Merging HAL and ADA would be a problem. HAL will take away whatever positives ADA has, and there will be no change at HAL.
HAL's issue is powerful unionization and chalta hain senior management which is more used to currying favor with MOD than actually doing its national programs.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 12 Jul 2017 15:57

chola wrote:
Indranil wrote: Stop this nonsense. HAL has firm orders for 40 aircraft. According to plan it was supposed to produce 6 aircraft this year. It is moddle of the year and it has delivered 3. 4th to be delivered very soon.
EXACTLY. Six this year. MaPar (when he was still around) said way back we should be getting 8 a year and then 16.

For an indigenous product with first flight SIXTEEN years ago in 2001, we should be happy with 6 in 2017?!

MoD pretty much ordered 123 LCAs in 2015. MoD and IAF had supported HAL and its network with solid orders.

Sorry, as a nation we can do far better. Give the private sector a shot.

Err...But but, this is ramp up period no..? Are you expecting production rate to jump from 0/yr to 8/yr in one year..??? Lets put the things in perspective. SOP for this production batch was frozen in 2015. Had they started manufacturing from scratch after that, we should have been seeing SP1 rolling out only in 2018-19. This is by global standard. But since the program is not really going as planned, moving in staggered manner and is delayed, we are in a situation where we saw SP-1 coming in 2015 just a little later than SOP freeze, SP-2 coming in 2016 after a good delay with 3/yr rate in that year and 2017 to have 6/yr rate, next year the line will hit full rate. Till now its as per plan. Perhaps somewhat behind. But lets not make it look like failure when reality is different.

Also please don't forget that order of 83 has been only recently cleared. Yes, intent was given in 2015 and it can be argued that its sufficient for HAL to start groundwork. And they did. They sent proposal for 2nd production line in 2015 end. GOI sat over it for more than a year. Its only cleared in 2017..!!

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 12 Jul 2017 16:06

Singha wrote:NAL should imo be merged with IISC-IIT complex. they will get a steady stream of the best Phd students available in field for long term projects and the benefit of freely moving around people and using the II* resources. plus UG interns can do other work like developing tools and packages.

remaining as a isolated ivory tower accessible only to the inner wheels of govt is not possible even for huge universities.

NAL is a CSIR lab and is quite academic in nature. They have good ties with IIT/IISc folks. NAL itself has its own deemed university like setup which offers PhD programs. No need of merger as such. NAL is supposed to be India's TSAGI or NASA (minus the space programs stuff) (sorry for bringing in firang comparison, its just to put emphasize) and IMO they are doing a fantastic job. They should keep doing it. They have also taken up the challenge to manufacture LCA composite parts when no one in India, neither government nor private company, wanted to do that, even when NAL was giving full TOT. NAL should not be needed to do that. What they should also not do is projects like Saras.

Marten · Post by **Marten** » 12 Jul 2017 16:10

Why not simply spin off Tejas division as an independent entity and set up the joint working groups? What works elsewhere should also work here, given freedom from unionism and some incentivisation. HAL wants to own ADA and LCA and everything else, and none of the other entities would want to be part of them. Instead of finding solutions to improve their productivity and access to the latest technology, we are coming up with the same problematic approaches that will push back the teams by another decade.

If indeed our goal is enhancing production capabilities, invite F-16 or Grippen vendors to first set up shop in India. Let GE manufacture engines in India. Pay whoever you need to, for consultancy (such as Airbus experts consulting with ADA now). The goal is to get our industry going and create jobs in India, not to enrich foreign manufacturers who are happy keeping component suppliers based in their native countries where the jobs will remain.

We are of course conflating fight capabilities with building an aerospace manufacturing ecosystem in India. It will take precious money and effort and time, and currently we are happier copping out with an SE tender.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 12 Jul 2017 17:43

what is the secret to HALs clout in delhi? they have 20,000 staff mostly unionized in blr and a few 1000 spread across other sites. but even a strong MLA can gather 10k followers and show street muscle, does not buy him that much clout.
and unlike the mining cos i doubt HAL has a network of guest houses and other infra that babus going on vacations can enjoy as compliment. nor free air tickets up for grabs like AI.

vina · Post by **vina** » 12 Jul 2017 18:22

Singha wrote:what is the secret to HALs clout in delhi? they have 20,000 staff mostly unionized in blr and a few 1000 spread across other sites. .

Same as Air India, HMT, ITI , HEC and a whole host of others. Infact lot more, because it is "profit making" and "strategic" while the others are dead/zombies. That is how things work here. The AI privatisation under Arun Shourie (who desperately wanted to do in NDA 1) was stalled because of a few union types and politicos. Kolkata Airport and Madras Airport privatisation, same reasons (coupled with political masters) , for even fewer numbers and look at the huge costs inflicted on the nation because of the inability to privatise Air India in the late 90s/early 2000s and privatise Calcutta and Madras (just fly into those airports and you will see some absolutely crummy and cringeworthy rubbish. flying to Bangalore, Dilli , Hyderabad and Mumbai and the difference is stark).

Face it. Modi is NOT a reformer of any sort. He is at best a tinkerer at the margins, who thinks that he can out "command and control" the Congress. Stars lined up for him until now in terms of benign inflation. But growth has been sub par (challenging environment and lack of reforms of any significance , until GST and bankruptcy law, great reluctance to allow markets to operate especially in cleaning up bank balance sheets..). This is going to persist. No two questions about it.

Do the Make in India single engine fighter thing , gradually what happened to Air India when it's monopoly over routes were taken away and private entrants allowed in domestic market will happen to HAL as well (with private guys drawing screw driver giri of imported designs, just like the Govt guys). That is what the Modi Govt will accomplish over the long term, given the policy trajectory.

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 12 Jul 2017 18:54

[Deleted]

mody · Post by **mody** » 12 Jul 2017 19:29

I have said this before and will say it again. Production for LCA can be increased to the current installed capacity of 11 planes only from 2018 onwards.
The 0.5 assembly line is just being set up, with the 1st plane still to be completed. Once SP5 is done and delivered, we will most probably see 2 planes on the 0.5 assembly line. From 2018 onwards, you will see 3 planes.
Also for a completely new product like LCA, you cannot expect the vendors and sub-vendors to put up manufacturing capacity, to support a few dozens planes per year and few hundred planes in total, without assured orders or clarity on the same from the govt.
Parts and components developed for LCA, may never be used for any other project as the things stand. Would any business take that kind of risk?
You plan for upto 300 planes and then only 123 are produced and the project ends.

We have F-16s waiting in the wings to be produced in greater numbers then LCA and no clarity on LCA MK2. Navy has already said it is reluctant and IAF, once it has F-16s churning out quickly, would push for AMCA, which would take another 10+ years to materialize.

IAF and MoD have to signal that they are more then committed to the LCA program. If MK1A takes 1-2 years more to come up for production, then production or additional quantity of MK1 should be a given.
We can even sell about 20 LCA MK-1 to Bangladesh and Sri Lanka along with 20 I-Hawks, between them, to keep the production going.

The first priority is get the FOC done and finished. This means no further changes will be required. Currently we are not sure if gun firing or integration of Python-V will require any physical changes to the aircraft. Once FoC is achieved, then HAL should concentrate on producing 12 planes per year in 2018 with the 1.5 lines that it has, while simultaneously setting up an additional line to increase quantity to 20 planes per year from 2019 onwards.

No where else in the world, any country buys an imported product, when a similar/competing domestic product is ready. The only example would be Israel buying the F-16s instead of Lavi and the reasons for that are well known.

Also as Zynda very rightly said, without LCA MK2, getting to AMCA is going to be more difficult. We have to go to second gen composites, lighter composites that currently used in LCA MK-1, co-bonded co-cured, rivetless manufacturing process, all internal EW suite, better sensor fusion, indigenous AESA radar etc etc. All of these are going to come only with LCA MK2.

I just hope F-16 and Ka-226 are going to go the Maitri way. It might be our new chankian way of working. Drag on the negotiations while asking for technology and manufacturing knowhow, that no phoren company would want to give or will ask for a very high price for the same. Then the price negotiations go on for a while, till our own desi product is ready and enters production. The years taken up for negotiations are just the famous Indian red tape and labyrinthine procurement procedure. The phoren govt./company get tired by then and we have acquired enough strategic independence by then to say NO to them.

chola · Post by **chola** » 12 Jul 2017 19:31

vina wrote:
Singha wrote:what is the secret to HALs clout in delhi? they have 20,000 staff mostly unionized in blr and a few 1000 spread across other sites. .
Same as Air India, HMT, ITI , HEC and a whole host of others. Infact lot more, because it is "profit making" and "strategic" while the others are dead/zombies. That is how things work here. The AI privatisation under Arun Shourie (who desperately wanted to do in NDA 1) was stalled because of a few union types and politicos. Kolkata Airport and Madras Airport privatisation, same reasons (coupled with political masters) , for even fewer numbers and look at the huge costs inflicted on the nation because of the inability to privatise Air India in the late 90s/early 2000s and privatise Calcutta and Madras (just fly into those airports and you will see some absolutely crummy and cringeworthy rubbish. flying to Bangalore, Dilli , Hyderabad and Mumbai and the difference is stark).

Face it. Modi is NOT a reformer of any sort. He is at best a tinkerer at the margins, who thinks that he can out "command and control" the Congress. Stars lined up for him until now in terms of benign inflation. But growth has been sub par (challenging environment and lack of reforms of any significance , until GST and bankruptcy law, great reluctance to allow markets to operate especially in cleaning up bank balance sheets..). This is going to persist. No two questions about it.

Do the Make in India single engine fighter thing , gradually what happened to Air India when it's monopoly over routes were taken away and private entrants allowed in domestic market will happen to HAL as well (with private guys drawing screw driver giri of imported designs, just like the Govt guys). That is what the Modi Govt will accomplish over the long term, given the policy trajectory.

Vina-ji, please don't be so pessimistic. It is a downer reading for me when you do that!

Even you mentioned Bangalore, Hyderabad and Mumbai airports as examples of what is good so there is hope.

Give Modi and the private sector their shots first.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 12 Jul 2017 19:31

[Deleted]
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Moderators - You're requested to hereby delete/deactivate my account on BRF permanently.

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 12 Jul 2017 19:49

To those who say that it's ok if Mk-2 is abandoned because most of the changes are incorporated into Mk-1A, I would ask this: What good is an air-refueling probe to increase the LCA's range (Mk-1A) without an onboard oxygen generation system (OBOGS) which was slated for Mk-2?

The gains with just in-flight refueling are small if the pilot doesn't get to breathe much beyond a single tank's range.

Although not the most relevant graphic because the LCA was flying without a weapon load, the graphic below from the LCA's journey to the Bahrain International Air Show still captures the LCA's limited endurance without in-flight refueling and OBOGs. Only one of these problems gets solved with Mk-1A.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 12 Jul 2017 20:02

A lot of the OFBs and DPSU are setup in constiuencies/states of defence ministers and powerful politicians. The lobbying power comes not just from a few hundred/thousand unionised factory workers but very powerful people in the system.
Unions act like unions, whether in private sector or public. Only difference is that private players have a interest in keeping them in line.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 12 Jul 2017 20:18

Manish: Calling someone a liar or a traitor is totally unacceptable. Edit your post, otherwise the admins will do it for you. And apologize please. We all bat for the same team. There are diametrically opposing views, but you can be civil about it.

Rohitvats: The admins have a tough job as it is. If you have a grievance, please address it via email. Nobody on BRF gets paid to do this. Secondly, with regards to ramana and indranil - if they said what you have stated they have said - I do not see why you cannot counter that with your own arguments, as you have done in the past. The armed forces are open to criticism and critique. If you cannot criticize and critique the service, then we will end up like Pakistan. No one on BRF is promoting violence against the Chiefs or the Service. But folks are calling it out for what they see. Now that is their perception - right or wrong - they are entitled to it. You are within your rights to counter it and call it nonsense, if you have the facts to back it up or a solid argument to make. And you have done both in the past convincingly. I am personally witness to it

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 12 Jul 2017 20:30

Rakesh Saar I stand by my post and will accept whatever action is taken against me without any complaints.

I have been banned warned many times, I never complain.

I have not called anybody traitor. It's a lie.

chola · Post by **chola** » 12 Jul 2017 20:30

I invite all to the sex nukkad to cool down (or heat up even more depending the subject matter.)

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 12 Jul 2017 20:33

chola wrote:I invite all to the sex nukkad to cool down (or heat up even more depending the subject matter.)

I didn't even know there was such a thread. What does it even mean?

Akshay Kapoor · Post by **Akshay Kapoor** » 12 Jul 2017 20:35

Rakesh,

I think Rohit is completely justified in bringing this issue up. He has done it in a very dignified way. And yes the moderators have a very tough job but the danger is we get rid of high quality, domain specialists and are left with a large pool of uninformed posters who post simply on emotion and bias.Also I have written to moderators before warning of the deterioration in standards. But it hasn't helped.

While Armed Forces accept criticism, it should be based on an understanding of the facts - for example you did not know the procurement process or powers and I pointed it out. There are a few other issues I can point out in our exchange but the problem is I have pointed it out several times before but people with strong uninformed opinions disregard what they read even if I post it 100 times.

And calling for court martial for Air Chief is simply unacceptable on a forum like this. In a country where military services is done by so few I see how opinions can get made on lack of hands on experience. But its a shame that moderators and some other admins who should know better also show these biases. A good start would be a crash course in procurement rules and regulations, financial powers at different levels, approval chains etc for atleast moderators and webmasters.

Rohit has indeed been let down.

chola · Post by **chola** » 12 Jul 2017 20:41

PratikDas wrote:
chola wrote:I invite all to the sex nukkad to cool down (or heat up even more depending the subject matter.)

I didn't even know there was such a thread. What does it even mean?

viewtopic.php?f=24&t=7117

It is actually the Love and Marriage Nukkad. I don't know why I think of it as the Sex Nukkad. Pardon me.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 12 Jul 2017 20:47

Akshay Saar: People will say many things. But it has to be backed up by facts. Over time, their statements (and them) will become increasingly irrelevant. Case in point - you prefer blended scotch over single malt, because it is cheaper. But which gives you a better boost? That was a joke...please do not shoot me

But in all seriousness, does Air Chief Marshal Dhanoa really care what folks on an internet forum say about him or his service? He will continue to do what he has to do. Yes, many are uninformed about every intricate detail...me included. You pointed out the procurement process for example, but I was referring to something different.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 12 Jul 2017 20:49

Rohit,

At least change that request to "temporary". I have felt the same way many a times.

Also, on a totally diff note, the Admiral needs a raise at the very least, if not a promotion (which I assume comes with a raise).

Akshay Kapoor · Post by **Akshay Kapoor** » 12 Jul 2017 20:54

Rakesh wrote:Akshay Saar: People will say many things. But it has to be backed up by facts. Over time, their statements (and them) will become increasingly irrelevant. Case in point - you prefer blended scotch over single malt, because it is cheaper. But which gives you a better boost? That was a joke...please do not shoot me

But in all seriousness, does Air Chief Marshal Dhanoa really care what folks on an internet forum say about him or his service? He will continue to do what he has to do. Yes, many are uninformed about every intricate detail...me included. You pointed out the procurement process for example, but I was referring to something different.

Its just a question of respect and izzat....perhaps the most important thing to a soldier. And you don't expect that to be abused on this forum especially from moderators.

And specifically from Rohit's perspective an ex moderator being told that its good you are no longer a moderator and implying other things about the way he left moderating is shocking. I understand his feelings 100% and am very sad at what has happened.

yes our exchange was different and if you share your email with me I will tell you why I don't completely agree that a) Navy has indengised more and b) why they do have an inherent advantage in indegnisation. Its an interesting topic and I would love to share my views with you on this offline.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 12 Jul 2017 21:03

In my profile is my email. You can email me and we can have the discussion on the Navy. Looking forward to hearing from you.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 12 Jul 2017 21:11

Manish_Sharma wrote:
NRao wrote: The LCA Mk2 no longer brings anything to the table. What was expected out of the Mk2 should be incorporated into the Mk1A - which is now the lead plane for the IAF. For the MIC it will still be a play ground. Until, by my expectations, till 2020-22.

ADA and Bharatvarsh has as much right to create Mk2 as much as f16 had myriad blocks. As much as grippen E being created from plain grippen.

Absolutely. No two ways about that.

But, that addresses only the MIC portion. And not the production and the client (only IAF at the moment).

Those ADA scientists know that fattening a little bit of airframe and lengthening by half metres will do wonders for an already wonderful aircraft. So It is being suffocated to fund Foreign companies and gora nations.

Same as above. I expect the GoI/MoD to fund this effort (NOT the IAF/IN). The Indian MIC needs to grow, it has a very long way to go.

negi wrote: Any talk of AMCA without getting LCA over the hill will be like talking about clearing 12td std before clearing 10th class boards.

Two points:

1) IIRC, both the Mk2 and the Mk1A were supposed to actually fly around this year. ????? 2017. In *your* analogy, this student has been 'failing' class 10.

What I am saying is that this 'failure' is natural. "Lockheed" (pre Martin days) failed once, was bought out the second time and what you see today is the third version. Boeing too would have never been here today if it were not for the 747 - a civilian effort that pulled them out. SpaceX, down to the last rocket. On and on. So, I do not expect miracles from the Indian Labs. But at the same time you cannot expect a client to wait for too much longer.

2) In this business, based on history, those who take low risks pay in time - which is what is happening in India. In some situations there is alternative, one has to wait. But, when it comes to the AMCA ADA had requested $2 billion funding and were actually very confident of getting it:

“We have just started working on this fifth-generation aircraft, for which we had already received sanctions to the tune of Rs 100 crore. The way the government is cooperating, I am able to say that we will receive the funding ($2 billion) in the next 18 months,” PS Subramanyam, programme director (combat aircraft) and director of ADA, told Business Standard.

First of all it is a quote.

Second of all, THAT was in 2010!!!!! They have already waited 7 years (in Nov, 2017).

I would suggest that any proposed idea be run by three things: MIC, production (including scaling up) and client/s (who as the CASs have stated, is looking for a good, timely product). If any of these three fail, then the idea needs to be reworked.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 12 Jul 2017 22:27

OK guys looks like we need to grow up to carry on a discussion.
I am closing this thread.
Only Indranil will open the read after cleaning up the unnecessary posts.....

Thanks for participation.
ramana

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 13 Jul 2017 01:45

This thread needs to be stay locked for two days. Everybody cool the hell down.

Manish sir,
Rohit did whatever he needed to do as a moderator. He had every right. And although he does not need a certificate, I remember the episode you are talking of, he did the right thing. You are banned for 1 week for personal attack on a member for your last post.

Rohit,
First, as member to member. Where is all this talk about IAF coming from? I said "Time to take down the import pasand lobby here." That I am not as vocal, doesn't mean that I respect them any less. Men in uniform hold a special place in my eyes just like in yours. I remember getting into trouble here for saying respect a fallen PAF pilot, even if he is enemy.

Second, as moderator to member. You are a very respected member and contributor here. But as a moderator, I cannot treat you differently from other members. Show me a reason why I should not impose a similar punishment on you for calling "moderators sleeping on the wheels", without any reports and even a 24 hours window to respond. I will not take action against you because I will take the blame for this derailment. Whether you chose to stay on BRF or not is your prerogative.

Others,
When this thread is reopened. Be warned that it will be very strongly moderated. I will take it upon myself personally as a poster to take you down if you post without knowing. You can keep your opinions and feelings about the program, the govt., and the Indian Airforce to yourself. As a moderator too, I will be very strict. I tried to be lenient. But, I have learnt the hard way, that doesn't work here.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 15 Jul 2017 02:48

Thread unlocked.

Rishi_Tri · Post by **Rishi_Tri** » 15 Jul 2017 13:15

Great that daily nourishment of LCA news / discussions is back.

Close up of NLCA from AI17. Beauty.

https://twitter.com/RishiTri76/status/8 ... 7614108672

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 15 Jul 2017 14:04

In case it was not shared earlier, Chaiwallah sources indicate that the gun firing trials which were to be carried out this month has been postponed due to weather conditions in the trial range.

nirav · Post by **nirav** » 15 Jul 2017 14:49

Indranil wrote: First, as member to member. Where is all this talk about IAF coming from? I said "Time to take down the import pasand lobby here." That I am not as vocal, doesn't mean that I respect them any less. Men in uniform hold a special place in my eyes just like in yours. I remember getting into trouble here for saying respect a fallen PAF pilot, even if he is enemy.

This is really a ridiculous thing for a moderator to say.

Firstly by openly declaring that you will take the 'import pasand lobby down', you are indirectly encouraging posters to engage in stupid generalisations by doing so yourself.
Secondly,if you really respect men in uniform,why won't you respect the organisation that the same uniformed men represent ?
Your moderation is eerily quiet on that aspect.

Indranil wrote:Second, as moderator to member. You are a very respected member and contributor here. But as a moderator, I cannot treat you differently from other members. Show me a reason why I should not impose a similar punishment on you for calling "moderators sleeping on the wheels", without any reports and even a 24 hours window to respond. I will not take action against you because I will take the blame for this derailment. Whether you chose to stay on BRF or not is your prerogative.

Others,
When this thread is reopened. Be warned that it will be very strongly moderated. I will take it upon myself personally as a poster to take you down if you post without knowing. You can keep your opinions and feelings about the program, the govt., and the Indian Airforce to yourself. As a moderator too, I will be very strict. I tried to be lenient. But, I have learnt the hard way, that doesn't work here.

Here you take part ownership for the derailment,which is a good thing.
But go on to warn 'others' that - You can keep your opinions and feelings about the program, the govt., and the Indian Airforce to yourself - says that you stand by the ridiculous moniker of an import pasand lobby operating in here.

Why shouldn't you be warned as a poster for making such stupid generalisations?

@being lenient - you have been anything but.
How many times did you warn Karan M on this thread for constant personal abuse and heckling?
Even after you said cease and desist, he kept going on and on and on and on.

Either you are powerless to do something about it or looks to me that you approve of it.

At times,when the thread has gone tits up, you grandly proclaim it's the internet, don't take an argument so seriously.
Why on earth would you then state your intent on personally 'taking down the import pasand lobby' ?

Do any members posts affect LCAs FOC or production rate or push RM to order more Solah ?

All generalisations and accusations are valid if the above is true else it's a mere exchange of views on a thread on the internet.

The subject is IAFs re equipment, and no one has the right to tell anyone how they should form views.
And fall in line with the moderators views or get banned.

I don't care if you ban me after this post, as it's something that I actually want.
Thankfully it's allowed me to speak my mind and the truth without worry.

If you ask me honest feedback on the moderation on this dhagaa my answer would be - piss poor.

RKumar · Post by **RKumar** » 15 Jul 2017 15:31

^
Calling spade a spade is not a crime. When we can criticise MoD, GoI and abuse babu's openly, why military services decision makers are above any criticism. No one is blaming normal soldier or pilot who is doing his normal duty.

You can create another thread to cry and complain against people ... Lets not derail this thread. Thanks

srai · Post by **srai** » 15 Jul 2017 15:33

^^^
Time to move on! This should be LCA discussion going forward.