China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

srai · Post by **srai** » 12 Jul 2017 20:11

^^^

You can train up to 5500m.

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 12 Jul 2017 20:12

Hypoxico I believe is the largest such high altitude company.

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 12 Jul 2017 20:15

This case, I believe genetics play way too much important role. Any living organism native to particular environment will have an edge over other who try to acclimatize.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 12 Jul 2017 20:21

Singha wrote: well maybe thats the idea - if he is running faster than his aerobic threshold (which for a pro league guy like him could be 15kmph) he will be in anaerobic zone even without a mask. the mask might be to force into anaerobic zone at a lower speed or ++ the work post his natural threshold. the position of his back leg on the side photo indicates he is running very fast like 20kmph. he is doing interval training not a prolonged run....routine for sprinters and middle distance athletes. even marathoners do it for strength and finishing speed.
.

Yes that is the idea and it is the lactic acid build up that can get a bit chancy in some people.

Erythropoietin is produced in the kidneys and hence kidney failure leads to lack of the stuff.

srai · Post by **srai** » 12 Jul 2017 20:21

Prasad wrote:Hypoxico I believe is the largest such high altitude company.

Yes they supply products to various facilities (or buy/rent it for yourself).

Another one:
Altitue Training Systems (ATS)

...
ATS Portable Hypoxic Generators
MODEL Part # Description List price (ex. tax)
ATS-BASE KIT 1300100100 Training to an equivalent 3,700 m; includes all accessories & pulse oximeter $5,495AUD
ATS-ELITE KIT 1300100101 Training to an equivalent 5,100 m; includes all accessories & pulse oximeter $6,295AUD
ATS-HP - Hyperoxic 1100200100 Training to an equivalent 5,500 m, high flow & hyperoxic capability POA
ATS Complete Solutions for Performance Altitude Rooms
MODEL Part # Description
ATS-5KHP 200 SYSTEM 5000200100 Training up to 5,000m recommended for rooms up to 12 m³ and 2 people
ATS-5KHP 350 SYSTEM 5000350100 Training up to 5,000m recommended for rooms up to 28 m³ and 4 people
ATS-5KHP 500 SYSTEM 5000500100 Training up to 5,000m recommended for rooms up to 44 m³ and 5 people
ATS-5KHP 750 SYSTEM 5000750100 Training up to 5,000m recommended for rooms up to 64 m³ and 8 people
ATS-5KHP 1000 SYSTEM 5001000100 Training up to 5,000m recommended for rooms up to 85 m³ and 10 people
ATS-5KHP 1500 SYSTEM 5001500100 Training up to 5,000m recommended for rooms up to 128 m³ and 15 people
ATS-5KHP 2500 SYSTEM 5002500100 Training up to 5,000m recommended for rooms up to 214 m³ and 25 people
ATS-5KHP 5000 SYSTEM 5005000100 Training up to 5,000m recommended for rooms up to 425 m³ and 50 people
...

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 12 Jul 2017 20:25

srai wrote:^^^

You can train up to 5500m.

Do you have a link. I want to see what they are doing esp with regard to how big they can be made. Was unable to finds any refs to 5500 meters in those sites. I wonder if 500 to 2000 men can be accommodated at a time in any such facility, or at least up to 2000 men being trained every day for say 10 days or 2 weeks

srai · Post by **srai** » 12 Jul 2017 20:27

^^^
Take a look above. Posted a link and their products. The largest one they have is for 50 people at a time. Could easily train many more on a rotational basis as one only needs to use it for a short period of time at intervals for the acclimatization process.

chola · Post by **chola** » 12 Jul 2017 20:28

Please, don't help them out by explaining proper use of those chambers!

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 12 Jul 2017 20:45

Hypoxico has designed:

This client had a massive training center and associated dormitories for their Olympic athletes.
They required us to “Convert” 32 bedrooms, each housing two athletes, into altitude rooms.

64 is a good number - but I think it needs to be 10 times as large for serious armed forces usage. Sounds like something the Chinese would do.

But fascinating stuff nevertheless.

srai · Post by **srai** » 12 Jul 2017 21:00

^^^
It seems the effect can last for 1 to 2 months. Troops could be rotated for 2-3 weeks process for higher elevations (>3500m) and then again after 2 months or so. Lower elevations (<2500m) could be maintained more indefinitely.

http://www.bsems.com.au/altitude-illness.html

...
Altitude Training

Living and training at high altitude has proven to benefit subsequent performance at sea level, but that edge over the competition is quickly lost over the course of 2 to 3 weeks.

Exposure to altitude causes:

Respiratory response of ↑ ventilatory rate and respiratory alkalosis (which ceases with acclimatization).
Haematological response of ↓ plasma volume, ↑ haematocrit, ↑ erythropoietin (with resulting ↑ Hb after 4-7 days).
Muscle changes of ↑ aerobic enzymes, and ↑ muscle buffering.
Endurance athletes: VO2max is significantly reduced at altitude and training intensity may be compromised for endurance events.
Anaerobic athletes: Muscle buffering is improved, but as recovery relies on aerobic systems to replenish ATP recovery needs to be extended.
Power and sprint athletes: Muscle strength is unaffected by altitude, but there is no real benefit to training at altitude.

The recommended training elevation is 2200-3500m. The optimum duration is uncertain, but the higher the elevation, the less time the athlete should stay. It remains unclear as to whether constant exposure to altitude, intermittent exposure to altitude or live high/train low is beneficial.

Newer techniques include normobaric hypoxia (e.g. hypoxic apartments) where inspired O2 is around 15%; hyperoxic altitude training where O2 levels are normalized or increased whilst training at altitude; hypoxic sleeping devices; and intermittent hypoxic exposure (e.g. inspired O2 of 10% for 60+ minutes twice daily at rest or whilst training). Evidence for many of these techniques is lacking or inconclusive.

Altitude acclimation is essential to allow the body time to adapt and recover from the strain of lower oxygenation on the cardiopulmonary system. These effects are acquired and transient in most individuals. Only athletes born and raised at higher altitudes appear to retain any long-term benefits of such altitude exposure.

Return to Sea Level

There is an immediate ↓ in erythropoietin levels but elevated Hb and RCC persist for 1-2 months, at which time there can be a reactive anaemia which is detrimental to performance. Endurance athletes have a blunted HVR (hypoxic ventilatory response) which is advantageous as it ↓s the work done by the respiratory muscles and the O2 requirement of them.

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 12 Jul 2017 21:03

Well what do you know

http://www.hypoxico.eu/references

China

- China Olympic committee ( 5 projects, undisclosed locations)

If they can STM and recreate an IC, they can chapamar this.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 12 Jul 2017 21:12

srai wrote: It seems the effect can last for 1 to 2 months. Troops could be rotated for 2-3 weeks process for higher elevations (>3500m) and then again after 2 months or so. Lower elevations (<2500m) could be maintained more indefinitely.

To my knowledge the Indian army has many locations above 2000 meters from where men can be sent on treks above 3000-3500 meters to attain acclimatization and fitness at altitude. I am not sure whether the Chinese can mimic this in Tibet because the whole goddam area is already too high. However there are mountain regions that separate mainland China from Tibet where this can be done. Need to probe into that.

While I was doing my Google earth "exploration" I saw one Chinese base in the middle of Tibet at 3500 meters - just next to the railway. That struck me as a good interim area for extreme high altitude acclimatization. But the place does not look too big. I will have to locate it again because my single (and only) loss after a recent disk crash was all my China bookmarks on GE.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 12 Jul 2017 21:12

Prasad wrote: If they can STM and recreate an IC, they can chapamar this.

I bet my left testimonial that they will

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 12 Jul 2017 21:14

Karthik S wrote:This case, I believe genetics play way too much important role. Any living organism native to particular environment will have an edge over other who try to acclimatize.

That is where the 'Indo-Tibetan Border police" are a useful asset, But we also have a lot of other hill peoples

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 12 Jul 2017 21:54

Kenyan and ethiopian athletes train at around ooty alitude or somewhat more but not more than 8000 ft

But they have a history of living there for 100s of years herding and farming. Only these kalenjin tribe of kenyans have the advantage not all kenyans

Its their thing and they train frighteningly hard 6 days a week

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 12 Jul 2017 22:07

Now Zhongwei sits at 3000m/10,000' asl. After that it drops to 1500m at Lanzhou and again climbs towards Golmud and beyond to Lhasa. From Zhongwei its a 24hr run to Lhasa. Assuming military trains will get prioirty and won't stop anywhere, they could cut a few hours from that. That still leaves another x hr journey to anywhere on the border. Which will give troops atleast 2-3 days at high altitude assuming they start from 10,000' acclimatisation.

Zhongwei is right at the edge of the Tibetan plateau and troops can be rushed from there if needed. Need to check what sort of troop facility they might have there. So if we're focussed on just Tibet and troop movement there, we could miss out. A hypobaric setup there would be very very useful if I want troops that had high alt exposure before rushing to high alt. And be easier to do than doing it at sea level in the east.

prasannasimha · Post by **prasannasimha** » 12 Jul 2017 22:15

High altitude training is not just for erythropoeitin release but also to avoid high altitude sickness which includes high altitude pulmonary edema which can be deadly. his is why acclimatization is required. In fact the incidence is higher with fit people who doe excessive work (read soldiers). India has a huge experience wrt in Siachen and Kargil war

DavidD · Post by **DavidD** » 13 Jul 2017 00:28

shiv wrote:
DavidD wrote:
Not directly, but it allows you to take more risks by bringing more men to higher altitudes faster. Usually this would result in more cases of altitude sickness, which can be life threatening, but now the severe cases can be treated safely in hyperbaric chambers. In short, it reduces the risks of the consequences of bringing a lot of men to high altitudes. Using them for comfort would be so stupid that only one who's underestimating his opponent would believe. In any case there's no way to build so many hyper or hypobaric chambers for that matter to accomodate even the existing men posted there let alone in the event of a troops surge, so they can only be used to treat severely ill soldiers.
There are two types of "hyperbaric" facilties.

Hyperbaric barracks are oxygen enriched barracks (like your trains to Lhasa) where soldiers spend some time. Hyperbaric chambers used in high altitude sickness are different. They are a therapeutic facility used in emergencies pending evacuation

There are interim areas in Tibet where partial acclimatization can occur. But oxygen enriched barracks cannot aid quick acclimatization because acclimatization is a change in the body where the bone marrow responds to low oxygen by producing more red blood cells, apart from a few other changes in the circulatory system. An O2 enriched environment will only delay this process, and barracks will not be used for treating an acute emergency

And oxygen enriched barracks will definitely serve as a comfort zone because symptoms of mild altitude sickness like insomnia, dizzyness and headaches will be relieved. But men who need this relief will take longer to get adjusted to week long patrols without the comfort of the barracks. And if the Chinese government keeps party officials in uniform on the frontline - I suspect those people will live in the comfort of oxygen enriched barracks

India's much maligned DRDO long ago designed a one-man hyperbaric "HAPO" (High Altitude Pulmonary Oedema) chamber to facilitate safe evacuation

Hyperbaric is not the same as oxygen enriched. Oxygen enriched chambers have a limit to the partial pressure of oxygen, which is at the pressure of the atmosphere with 100% FiO2. Hyperbaric chambers overcome that limit by raising the "atmospheric" pressure, and that's the whole point of using hyperbaric chambers--so you can get more oxygen than inhaling pure oxygen. It's used to treat severe cases of altitude sickness e.g. high altitude pulmonary or cerebral edema in this setting, and more commonly for severe burns in most other settings. I'm not aware of hyperbaric chambers being used for acclimatization or comfort.

Shankas · Post by **Shankas** » 13 Jul 2017 04:30

China’s Mysterious Billionaire, Guo Wengui | China Uncensored

Posting here since we do not have a China Political Watch thread.

A fascinating look at the internal powerplay within CCP

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 14 Jul 2017 11:58

Analysis: Sensor and Electronic Warfare Suites Aboard China's Type 055 Destroyer

The Build quality of newer Cheeni Ships are much better

chola · Post by **chola** » 14 Jul 2017 12:09

The build quality has been there for years in the J-10, J-11 and especially the J-20 which looks so smooth that it looks like it was photoshopped. Maybe it is.

Courtesy of Japanese and German machine tools which they had led the world in importing for the past decade.

We led the world in importing arms. They led the world importing the machines that allowed them to make arms.

alexis · Post by **alexis** » 14 Jul 2017 15:48

Austin wrote:Analysis: Sensor and Electronic Warfare Suites Aboard China's Type 055 Destroyer

The Build quality of newer Cheeni Ships are much better

it is indeed a nice looking ship

chola · Post by **chola** » 15 Jul 2017 01:47

Undoubtedly for their upcoming CATOBAR. This thing won't be able to launch from a ramp.

We better get the E-2 for our 65K-tonner.

http://www.atimes.com/article/china-dev ... -carriers/

China develops first airborne early warning plane for aircraft carriers

Plane marks huge step towards having fully capable carrier wing

By ASIA UNHEDGEDJULY 14, 2017 11:12 PM (UTC+8) 40

pravula · Post by **pravula** » 15 Jul 2017 05:31

chola wrote:Teleport?!

https://amp-businessinsider-com.cdn.amp ... net-2017-7

Chinese scientists just teleported an object into Earth's orbit for the first time
Sarah Marquart, Futurism

Jul 11, 2017, 6:55 PM E

Quantum entanglement.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 15 Jul 2017 06:50

Myth building

g.sarkar · Post by **g.sarkar** » 15 Jul 2017 13:05

Captain Kirk and Scotty will be from Sugarland.
Gautam

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 15 Jul 2017 13:30

Coming up next week... Warp Drive

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 15 Jul 2017 15:38

They are using that sat to test some new cryptography that will be impossible to break google the details

Its sunrise tech and they off the mark first long way to ioc

http://money.cnn.com/2017/06/16/technol ... index.html

Part of being a superpawa is you invest in the science
Needed for industries that are decades away

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 15 Jul 2017 21:28

twitter

China puts preconditions for talks with India but backs terror all-weather ally Pak demand for unconditional talks with India. Seriously duh

DavidD · Post by **DavidD** » 15 Jul 2017 23:11

Singha wrote:They are using that sat to test some new cryptography that will be impossible to break google the details

Its sunrise tech and they off the mark first long way to ioc

http://money.cnn.com/2017/06/16/technol ... index.html

Part of being a superpawa is you invest in the science
Needed for industries that are decades away

The satellite network isn't at IOC yet but quantum network has been in use for a while now. The first, rudimentary network was deployed in China in 2012 in Hefei, the Beijing-Shanghai line was launched late last year, and the first exclusively quantum network is being constructed in Jinan to be finished next month.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 16 Jul 2017 06:34

China should stop ratcheting up 1962, remember 1967 Nathu La battle
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 552208.cms

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 16 Jul 2017 06:46

High Noon in the Himalayas: Behind the China-India Standoff at Doka La
https://warontherocks.com/2017/07/high- ... t-doka-la/

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 16 Jul 2017 06:47

China says no room for negotiations on Sikkim standoff, adds Ladakh to dispute with India
http://www.defencenews.in/article.aspx?id=263212

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 16 Jul 2017 07:31

Type 055 Destroyer "Renhai"
http://tejasmrca.weebly.com/naval-syste ... yer-renhai

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 16 Jul 2017 07:50

China's Radar Web
http://tejasmrca.weebly.com/orbat/chinas-radar-web

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 16 Jul 2017 07:50

China’s Restructured Power Posture: Challenges for India
http://tejasmrca.weebly.com/orbat/-chin ... -for-india

KrishnaK · Post by **KrishnaK** » 17 Jul 2017 05:36

THIS STANDOFF IS CHINA TELLING INDIA TO ACCEPT CHANGING REALITIES - JOHN GARVER

ArjunPandit · Post by **ArjunPandit** » 17 Jul 2017 19:18

chinese-army-conducts-live-fire-drills-in-tibet

There is a message to India as the article says, but the message should be to conduct a full scale fire exercise rather than DS.
That reminds me that IA hasnt done any major exercise in our eastern borders for long. I know IAF has done ex pralay but there is not much news about it. This thing has always intrigued me why is it so. Could be be our pacifist policies or lack of infra or our active exercises on western border that give us adequate exposure to avoid replicating the effort.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 19 Jul 2017 17:46

New BVRAAM may have entered PLAAF service

Images have emerged on Chinese online military forums showing a People’s Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF) Chengdu Aircraft Industry Corporation (CAC) J-10C combat aircraft armed with what appears to be a new beyond-visual-range air-to-air missile (BVRAAM).

The fighter was photographed carrying two PL-10 short-range AAMs on its outer underwing pylons and two of the new missiles on its mid-underwing pylons.

Although nomenclature is uncertain as no official information is forthcoming, it is likely that the new missile is the one being referred to unofficially as the PL-15, with its appearance on the underwing pylons of a J-10C possibly reflecting that it is now in service.

The missile is estimated to be around 3.7 m long, with a diameter of 200 mm. It is fitted with low aspect ratio aerodynamic stabilising surfaces (trapezoidal wings) on its mid-section and at the moveable control surfaces (clipped delta fins) at its tail.

The respective surface spans approximately 390 mm and 515 mm. There is no visible evidence of a thrust vectoring control (TVC) system present at the rear of the new missile, as can clearly be seen on the PL-10, so control appears to be aerodynamic only. Additionally, there are no air intakes that would be necessary if propulsion was provided by a ramjet, so it can be assumed that a standard form rocket motor is being used.

Photographs of a similar missile carried by a Shenyang Aircraft Corporation J-16 emerged in 2012, which is thought to be undergoing development trials. Like the recent sighting, the missile’s aerodynamic surfaces are the same low aspect ratio planform, which facilitates loading in the internal weapons bay of the CAC J-20 'fifth-generation' fighter.

Images appeared in 2013 of a J-20 carrying the missile, which has the capacity to take up to four of them in its weapons bay. It would seem a second of the new missiles was present in the bay, albeit without its aerodynamic surfaces attached.

Currently, the PLAAF’s principal in-service BVRAAM is the PL-12, which was introduced around 2005 and is thought to have a range of 60-70 km and a maximum speed at altitude of approximately Mach 4. The export version of the PL-12 is believed to be the SD-10.

Characteristics of the new missile are inevitably speculative, although it is reasonable to expect improvements over the PL-12. One usually well informed and reliable source assesses that the missile has a dual pulse rocket motor that may extend its range out to 200 km. It is also thought to be equipped with active/passive electronically scanned array radar and datalinking, which would support long-range engagements and make the missile less vulnerable to electronic countermeasures.

The recently photographed missile is not the same as another long-range AAM seen under the wing of a J-16 in December 2016 when it was thought to be undergoing trials. The nomenclature for this missile is also unknown, so it is commonly referred to as PL-X.

At around 5.8 m in length and 300 mm in diameter, it is much larger than the missile seen carried by the J-10C and has control surfaces only at the tail, although the short extension at the rear of the missile could possibly be some form of TVC system.

Having been photographed being carried by J-10, J-16, and J-20 aircraft, it is reasonable to assume that the new missile is intended to become the PLAAF’s main BVRAAM, and that it will be used by naval combat aircraft as well.

It is thought that targeting data for the missile can be supplied over the datalink by airborne early warning and control aircraft such as the KJ-500 and KJ-2000. Not only will this offer potentially longer-range detections than those achievable using the launch aircraft's radar, but it will also reduce the likelihood that the firing platform will be detected by the target aircraft.

chola · Post by **chola** » 19 Jul 2017 19:38

^^^
Probably using the same Russian seeker head as the R-77. Nothing to worry about.