Artillery: News & Discussion

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 17 Jul 2017 18:36

http://www.dailydefencenews.com/dhanush ... my-trials/

The testfire will be held at Pokhran in Rajasthan next month with around 300 rounds of firing and this may be the final round under the “user exploitation”. The previous testfire was held at Siachen where the gun was able to fire accurately with even pinpointing bunkers. The rounds could hit the target with minute precision.

This was an intensive fire test. When 300 rounds are fired, one or two are bound to misfire by the law of averages. The cause will be found and rectified before mass production. Will be done for M777 too.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 17 Jul 2017 18:41

With all due respect to TSarkar sir, this Dhanush will never enter production because next time after fixing it we will get it to Pokhran again and this time around 1000 rounds will be fired and then there will be a failure and so on and so forth. Dhanush tu bhi gaya like Arjun

kvraghav · Post by **kvraghav** » 17 Jul 2017 18:46

American howitzer is here already and they are updated firing chart already without extended trials. ~~Time for some generals children to get green card out of order in waiting queue.~~

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 17 Jul 2017 19:00

srai wrote:

suryag wrote:With all due respect to TSarkar sir, this Dhanush will never enter production because next time after fixing it we will get it to Pokhran again and this time around 1000 rounds will be fired and then there will be a failure and so on and so forth. Dhanush tu bhi gaya like Arjun

kvraghav wrote:American howitzer is here already and they are updated firing chart already without extended trials. Time for some generals children to get green card out of order in waiting queue.

^^ Totally unnecessary posts.

tsarkar wrote:http://www.dailydefencenews.com/dhanush ... my-trials/

The testfire will be held at Pokhran in Rajasthan next month with around 300 rounds of firing and this may be the final round under the “user exploitation”. The previous testfire was held at Siachen where the gun was able to fire accurately with even pinpointing bunkers. The rounds could hit the target with minute precision.
This was an intensive fire test. When 300 rounds are fired, one or two are bound to misfire by the law of averages. The cause will be found and rectified before mass production. Will be done for M777 too.

Tsarkar/Rohit,
1-2 failures damaging muzzle or barrel for 300 firings seem too much to me in operational use. What is the reliability requirement on the ammunition for the howitzer..? Also what is the same requirement for the barrel.? How many firings before barrel needs replacement..? How many misfires allowed say per 1000 firing..?

Also what exactly "user exploitation" means..? How are these tests different than usual test matrix for under development platform..?

any info would be appreciated.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 17 Jul 2017 19:20

some data here, but dates back to ww2
http://www.kbismarck.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4098

they were using hefty 300kg charges and the rounds were around 2t ... but physics is a hard teacher for all.

sudeepj · Post by **sudeepj** » 17 Jul 2017 21:45

Appears to be a failure in the ammunition and not the Gun.. Last time, it appears there were air bubbles inside the explosive loaded in the shells, which caused an internal shockwave and a premature explosion within the barrel, this one sounds like a bad fuse. The fuse is supposed to count the number of revolutions of the shell and arm the shell only after the shell has gone through a certain number of revolutions. This makes sure that the shell does not explode so close to the gun so as to harm the gunners. It will be deeply disappointing if this latest mishap is treated as a gun problem and the induction postponed, particularly when the Chinese are posturing in the East and Pakis in the west.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 17 Jul 2017 21:51

Pratyush wrote: Well if pokhran is worst compared to other test sites. Then in a perverse way it is a badge of TFTAness.

I must be dumb. What is a TFTA artillery testing range? One with a bar and waiter bringing drinks and dancing girls? A firing range is just a vast empty area with some targets marked out and telemetry/observers to see what is going on

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 17 Jul 2017 22:02

kvraghav wrote:American howitzer is here already and they are updated firing chart already without extended trials. Time for some generals children to get green card out of order in waiting queue.

I object to this statement because you are insulting a number of sincere and brave people while painting the corrupt. I have repeatedly pointed to admins that on BRF if I accuse you personally of corruption I will get a warning or a ban, but you can accuse senior armed forces officers of corruption and it is "Freedom of Expression"

That is why BRF works like an exclusive club where we are loyal to each other and consider ourselves superior to others bragging that we are ahead of curve. Outsiders including the armed forces are all fair game for libellous comments. The irony of course is that this forum and site were started by people who were fundamentally respectful and grateful to the armed forces. Not to mention that I was a loose cannon as an admin and would ban people for such comments. Let me boast that I gave up my admin post myself - to "fight from the outside" without scaring the shit out of people who would go out of their way to butter me up. It still happens. You see all sorts of insulting people going all soft, gooey and respectful with "admin-sir".

And we have now lost Rohit Vats because of this sort of stuff. Other ex armed forces people have expressed anguish at this but hey this is BRF. We are friggin ahead of curve.

hack thoo

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 17 Jul 2017 22:28

^^^ The poster has been warned.

By the way, you are right. You have gone overboard with your latest post too. But I will let it slide this time.

You can help us by reporting the posts. In today's high volume traffic, it is unreasonable to expect moderators to read all the posts?

negi · Post by **negi** » 17 Jul 2017 22:43

People getting senti with forces lol ; what about the names we keep for IAS and Politicos ? Just because there is a perception that they are more corrupt does it mean we get touchy for one and not for others ? If people want to take a high moral ground there ain't no limit for getting high . I mean one could use same kind of lahori logic and defend INC too for I am sure there are some good folks there too . When someone makes a post about corruption in an institution why is it objectionable ? One has a right to be offended but then one should have an ability to take a stand which is consistent , to get offended when forces are put to question and then in every other post claim MOD sucks or how babus are responsible for all that ails India's MIC is hypocrisy .

srai · Post by **srai** » 17 Jul 2017 23:38

^^^
Well said negi.

Folks let's move on to the topic at hand. Enough of the continual thread derailment.

Criticism are everyday things. Some are valid; some are not. Treatment should be fair and should be justifiable. IMO, the largest share of criticism on BRF are made against DPSUs and GoI babus, and not against the armed forces. Go search the threads over the years and you will see too. Take it easy with long patriotic rants only in support of the forces; DPSUs and babus are Indian too.

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 17 Jul 2017 23:47

I have read in a few places that barrels need to be replaced after certain amount of firings. Is there any open source information about Dhanjsh and other big guns in India ?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 18 Jul 2017 00:11

Pokhran in summer gets hot and that effects shell accuracy. That is one reason why it is used to proof artillery to see how the temperature effects the overall system.

I posted a link to the US efforts to improve the M1 tank gun and one of the issues was the long barrel would distort due to the heat of firing multiple rounds. So one fix was an auto-frettage step in the gun barrel heat treatment to induce compressive stress to act like winding the barrel in the old days.

I never heard of 'user -exploitation trials'. Could be a new one.

maybe to provide training to more soldiers.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 18 Jul 2017 00:11

JayS. Please post the screen shot or put it on twitter.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 18 Jul 2017 00:36

ramana wrote:JayS. Please post the screen shot or put it on twitter.

Here is an image
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2Jcr1 ... p=drivesdk

Even India Today has tweeted the same thing. I saw that tweet too.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 18 Jul 2017 00:39

Everybody, move on. Stick to the topic at hand. Questioning IA/IAF decisions is not off the board, but needless/unsubstantiated name-calling will draw ire. Posters, please help us by reporting posts.

Akshay Kapoor · Post by **Akshay Kapoor** » 18 Jul 2017 00:40

Indranil wrote:^^^ The poster has been warned.

By the way, you are right. You have gone overboard with your latest post too. But I will let it slide this time.

You can help us by reporting the posts. In today's high volume traffic, it is unreasonable to expect moderators to read all the posts?

Sure it's unreasonable to expect moderators to read all posts but when mods themselves display bias because of a lack of knowledge and even when data and facts are given a 100 times some mods choose to ignore it. This sets the tone for the completely uninformed posting we have seen. There are many reasons to be critical of the armed forces but not one has come up here. Why - complete lack of knowledge and and even stronger lack of desire to apply mind. Subtly egged on by some mods. Anyway it's up to the mods to decide how they want to play this. Your forum, your choice. There is some good work going on here and I wish you all the best.

Best wishes.

ArjunPandit · Post by **ArjunPandit** » 18 Jul 2017 00:45

srai wrote:^^^
Well said negi.
Folks let's move on to the topic at hand. Enough of the continual thread derailment.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5052&p=2186439#p2186439

Request admaulanas to see the fariyad of this nanha mujahid

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 18 Jul 2017 00:47

Akshay Kapoor wrote:
Indranil wrote:^^^ The poster has been warned.

By the way, you are right. You have gone overboard with your latest post too. But I will let it slide this time.

You can help us by reporting the posts. In today's high volume traffic, it is unreasonable to expect moderators to read all the posts?
Sure it's unreasonable to expect moderators to read all posts but when mods themselves display bias because of a lack of knowledge and even when data and facts are given a 100 times some mods choose to ignore it. This sets the tone for the completely uninformed posting we have seen. There are many reasons to be critical of the armed forces but not one has come up here. Why - complete lack of knowledge and and even stronger lack of desire to apply mind. Subtly egged on by some mods. Anyway it's up to the mods to decide how they want to play this. Your forum, your choice. There is some good work going on here and I wish you all the best.

Best wishes.

Akshay sir, I will respond on the feedback thread.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 18 Jul 2017 07:29

Indranil wrote:^^^ The poster has been warned.

By the way, you are right. You have gone overboard with your latest post too. But I will let it slide this time.

You can help us by reporting the posts. In today's high volume traffic, it is unreasonable to expect moderators to read all the posts?

Indranil - let me remind you and other admins that you people do not have to wait for next elections. More admins can be appointed. It is many many months if not years since I saw RahulM doing any admin work. The last time there was an admin group expansion I recall both you and Rahul M became admins. I also recall suggesting some names. Please do not complain of being short of hands. Appoint more admins. It is in the hands of the admins and let that not become a closed club like P5

Bharat Rakshak is a site set up by volunteers and ideally people who are too busy should hand the baton to someone who has time. Or at least add to the group.

And I ask once again. What is the purpose of these forums? Does any forum member or any admin have any idea? This is the wrong thread but recall that it was an admin decision to move the forum complaints to a hidden thread. It is odd that the forum itself can be seen by the public but the complaints are discussed in the private clubhouse.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 18 Jul 2017 07:33

negi wrote:People getting senti with forces lol ; what about the names we keep for IAS and Politicos ? Just because there is a perception that they are more corrupt does it mean we get touchy for one and not for others ? If people want to take a high moral ground there ain't no limit for getting high . I mean one could use same kind of lahori logic and defend INC too for I am sure there are some good folks there too . When someone makes a post about corruption in an institution why is it objectionable ? One has a right to be offended but then one should have an ability to take a stand which is consistent , to get offended when forces are put to question and then in every other post claim MOD sucks or how babus are responsible for all that ails India's MIC is hypocrisy .

Recall that there are people with fathers and sons in the armed forces who visit this forum. It was these people as well as retired military folks who contributed immensely to these forums and still do in a situation where a lot of people live in la la land about the military. I am speaking from that perspective. If you like INC you should be doing the complaining about people cursing INC or Babus. This is a mil forum and not an INC/Babu forum

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 18 Jul 2017 07:51

>> It is many many months if not years since I saw RahulM doing any admin work. The last time there was an admin group expansion I recall both you and Rahul M became admins.

nitpicking & OT. my last 'admin work' was yesterday.

I was given moderation responsibilities way back in 2008 and was one of those who suggested Indranil's name for mod. btw, you are correct that as more admins have become busy IRL their moderation activities have gone down. I have been thinking of another expansion in mod ranks for sometime. will start that process.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 18 Jul 2017 10:17

Hakeem,

I disagree here.

I think I have explained my position. If you can show me a post where I have disrespected the armed forces, or have been selectively relaxed to only those who have questioned the military, I will happily put down my pen and walk out of here. If not, you guys should also question your biases. Afterall, you have questioned the integrity, patriotism and capability of three moderators directly.

srai · Post by **srai** » 18 Jul 2017 10:31

Back to Artillery.

Please move OT discussions to the feedback thread. Thanks.

Rishi_Tri · Post by **Rishi_Tri** » 18 Jul 2017 11:40

OT but relevant.

We seem to have lost focus on supporting home grown products after Parrikar left. He wanted to move on but don't know if something else precipitated it.

Non defense example on imports for a program of national importance - we are now importing 85% plus of Solar power equipment from China for a program which runs into 10,000s crores. A lot of it happening at cost of local manufacturing and they have cried themselves hoarse for almost year now. So much for Make in India.

Same extends to defense. PM has gone ahead and talked about open economies, borders at various fora and I am inclined to think, without careful thought to implications for local manufacturing, jobs.

I was gung ho about local equipment till the time Parrikar was here, but having doubts now. Its all coming down from top. If PM wanted Tejas, Arjun, Dhanush to be in Armed Forces, who could keep him from getting it but him?

Core BJP supporter here, but cant keep myself from criticising the direction we are taking.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 18 Jul 2017 12:33

Rishi_Tri wrote:OT but relevant.

We seem to have lost focus on supporting home grown products after Parrikar left. He wanted to move on but don't know if something else precipitated it.

Non defense example on imports for a program of national importance - we are now importing 85% plus of Solar power equipment from China for a program which runs into 10,000s crores. A lot of it happening at cost of local manufacturing and they have cried themselves hoarse for almost year now. So much for Make in India.

Same extends to defense. PM has gone ahead and talked about open economies, borders at various fora and I am inclined to think, without careful thought to implications for local manufacturing, jobs.

I was gung ho about local equipment till the time Parrikar was here, but having doubts now. Its all coming down from top. If PM wanted Tejas, Arjun, Dhanush to be in Armed Forces, who could keep him from getting it but him?

Core BJP supporter here, but cant keep myself from criticising the direction we are taking.

Of all, you chose artillery thread to post this..? Without question, Artillery is one of those big sectors which has got real good support for home grown products and things are looking up really good with Dhanush coming up well, ATAGS moving ahead nicely and most importantly private industry being enabled for future.

Rishi_Tri · Post by **Rishi_Tri** » 18 Jul 2017 12:53

Jay - You are right. Real support Yes.

But, perhaps tied up in trials and more trials in controlled situations? Should not we arm regiments with Dhanush .. ATAGS .. others in whatever numbers possible and get field feedback, not in tailored scenarios. Subscribe to the thought of incremental.. field based progress.. and not trying to build a super weapon first time around.

What if conflicts broke out and we didn't even know how to operate Dhanush,, whatever were available. Anyway,, end of thoughts on this.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 18 Jul 2017 12:56

X-Posted from another td.It sheds a beam of light into the murky world of the Bofors deal,with some intriguing new info as to how we ended up with Bofors.It was more than just a kickback. If the author is right then perhaps many more deals are using the Bofors "protocol" and what we see is merely kabuki.

MOHAN GURUSWAMYThe writer, a policy analyst studying economic and security issues, held senior positions in government and industry. He also specialises in the Chinese economy

http://www.deccanchronicle.com/opinion/ ... -sing.html

Bofors: Will the caged parrot sing?
Published Jul 18, 2017,

The Congress kept sheltering Quattrocchi, and the BJP was more intent on shielding the Hinduja brothers.
Dassault Rafale fighter aircraft (Photo: Youtube screengrab)

Acting on a directive of the Lok Sabha’s Public Accounts Committee, the CBI will now be writing to the government seeking its permission to restart the investigations into the alleged Bofors payoffs. Given this government’s special animosity towards the Nehru-Gandhi family, is there room for any doubt about what its decision will be? By today’s standards, the Bofors deal was really small and the quantum of the alleged kickbacks laughably miniscule. But a quarter of a century ago it was huge. It caused a change of government and possibly set India off in a new direction. In March 1986, a contract worth $285 million, or about Rs 1,600 crores, was entered into between the government of India and Swedish arms company Bofors for the supply of 410 155mm howitzer field guns. By contrast, in September 2016 India signed a deal of about Rs 58,000 crores, or 7.8 billion euros, for 36 off-the-shelf Dassault Rafale twin-engine fighters. Each Rafale will cost about Rs 680 crores and it’s a little over Rs 1600 crores per aircraft for the whole deal. The kickbacks alleged in the Bofors deal were supposed to total `64 crores in all. One can only speculate as to how many Bofors there are in the Rafale deal.

In the late 1970s, Voest Alpine purchased the design for a relatively light and rugged 155 mm howitzer from Gerald Bull, a well-regarded Canadian weapons designer. Iraq’s Saddam Hussein, then fighting a war with Iran, liked the planned 155 mm howitzer and a deal was struck for Voest Alpine to make them. The conservative party led by Kurt Waldheim, which was quite sympathetic to Iraq, then governed Austria. (Waldheim was soon uncovered by the Jewish Documentation Centre of Simon Wiesenthal to be a former Nazi and driven out of office.) But before the conservatives went, 160 Gerald Bull-designed howitzers, the Noricum GHN45 were manufactured and assembled for shipment to Iraq. (Gerald Bull was killed by the Mossad in Brussels in March 1990 as he had begun redesigning Scud missiles for Iraq to make them more accurate and nuclear-capable).

The Iraqi plan came to naught when Bruno Kreisky became Austrian Chancellor. Kreisky came from a prominent Vienna Jewish family and promptly scrapped the deal as it violated Austria’s neutrality laws. Kreisky was also a personal friend of Prime Minister Indira Gandhi and was instrumental in making the Congress Party a member of the Socialist International, much to the chagrin of George Fernandes’ German SDP friends. Kreisky persuaded Mrs Gandhi to take those 160 guns readied for the Iraqis and help him out. Mrs Gandhi was very obliged to Kreisky for saving her from socialist opprobrium after she had imposed the Emergency. And what are a few guns between friends? The GHN45 howitzers were indeed very good and with base bleed shells had the longest reach of all howitzers available then. They were accurate, rugged and easy to maintain. They came out best in the Indian Army trials supervised by the highly regarded DG Weapons Evaluation, the late Lt Gen. Misbah Mayadass. India would have benefitted greatly by entering into this deal as the Austrian government had also agreed to transfer the manufacturing technology and plant to India. Like in all such deals a small something was also to be made to the Congress Party’s war chest. In 1983, this money was also made over in advance, in anticipation of the formal order and the forthcoming Lok Sabha elections.

(Mrs Gandhi often made leader-to-leader deals of this kind. In 1970, she bought the Sukhoi-7 fighter-bomber on Leonid Brezhnev’s say, so. The Su-7 proved a great success in 1971.) Kreisky left office in 1983. In 1984, Mrs Gandhi was assassinated and a new chapter began. Olof Palme, Prime Minister of Sweden, soon befriended Rajiv Gandhi. Palme had an Indian connection. His aunt Anna Palme was the mother of Rajni Palme Dutt, at one time general secretary of the Communist Party of Great Britain, and a good friend of Mrs Gandhi and Jyoti Basu during their UK days. Palme was a big and respected name in world affairs and had strenuously opposed the US war on Vietnam. He inspired Rajiv Gandhi to take the initiative on nuclear disarmament. The implicit quid pro quo for facilitating Rajiv Gandhi’s easy entry to the global high table was the purchase of the Bofors FH45 howitzer. Palme was also facing a re-election and his party’s coffers needed topping up. The Indian howitzer order would do the trick. The donation by the Bofors Foundation at Karlskrona to the Swedish SDP is proof of this.

The Austrian government then advised the Indian government to have this money returned and close the matter. This was the first time the new Indian Prime Minister heard about it. He was furious. A very powerful minister in his government was summarily sacked. Now a way was sought to set this account right. Bofors was required to close this hole. This was being arranged via a Swiss banker Francis Laffont. The route went like this. Bofors pays Laffont. Laffont pays Voest Alpine, and the money already paid in India stays where it is. In all probability, it was used up in the 1984 elections. Voest Alpine’s representative in New Delhi, a man called Unterweger, was Ottavio Quattrocchi’s neighbour in Delhi. Being expatriate businessmen, they became good friends. It was also well-known that Quattrocchi had easy access to the Prime Minister’s house because of the well-known connection. Quattrocchi was the India representative for Snamprogetti ENI, the Italian government-owned engineering conglomerate, and was no stranger to controversy.

As was the well-established practice then, Unterweger also cut a deal with Quattrocchi. When the Voest Alpine deal collapsed, Quattrocchi was required to close that account, as did the Congress Party. So one more payoff stream was organised by Bofors to Quattrocchi to close this hole. The Quattrocchi method of cutting deals with all competing suppliers is a common practice in India now. Usually the best-suited item is chosen, and it still keeps the system smooth and palms greased. Bribes to be paid in India are also a way of getting money out by foreign executives for themselves. The Hinduja brothers with their Swiss banking expertise take this to the next level.

People like the Hindujas have friends in all parties and many countries. Lest we forget, it was Atal Bihari Vajpayee who wrote to Prime Minister P.V. Narasimha Rao seeking closure of the Bofors case against the Hinduja brothers. And it was Srichand Hinduja who accompanied Brajesh Mishra to his meetings with British Prime Minister Tony Blair, and French President Jacques Chirac after the nuclear tests in 1998. The Hindujas also midwifed the Sukhoi deal during P.V. Narasimha Rao’s days. After the Goenka-Gurumurthy conspiracy with President Zail Singh to dismiss Prime Minister Rajiv Gandhi lapsed, Bofors became the stick to beat him with. The subsequent behaviour of the successive governments did indicate that while there is something to hide, they were not in agreement on what to hide. The Congress kept sheltering Quattrocchi, and the BJP was more intent on shielding the Hinduja brothers. The fact is that the two roads crisscrossed, and neither the truth prevailed, nor did the law take its course. So will the caged parrot now shred the veils?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 18 Jul 2017 21:45

Philip, That Voest Alpine isn't that purchased by Baba Kalyani's group?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 18 Jul 2017 22:50

imo all artillery trials should only be conducted with match-grade US/israeli ammo to take shell quality out of the variables

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 18 Jul 2017 23:47

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 19 Jul 2017 00:14

Singha wrote:imo all artillery trials should only be conducted with match-grade US/israeli ammo to take shell quality out of the variables

Excellent point.
Dead ON!

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 19 Jul 2017 00:23

Cybaru wrote:
Singha wrote:imo all artillery trials should only be conducted with match-grade US/israeli ammo to take shell quality out of the variables
Excellent point.
Dead ON!

But trials are over.
This is some new thing called user exploitation trials.

Never done before.

What was the point of tacking them on ?

If it was to get more users familiar with the gun before its inducted they should have ensured good ammo from OFB.

Most likely the shells are unreliable.

Better have an investigation on why they shell armed and burst so close to the gun?

Here is the 155mm shell fuze

http://ofbindia.gov.in/products/data/am ... /fz/10.htm

I think the fuze setting was in super quick mode time delay. It arms at 2000 rpm minimum.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 19 Jul 2017 02:11

ramana wrote:But trials are over. This is some new thing called user exploitation trials. Never done before.

This was always done. Typically first batch from production is tested not for functionality & performance but for operationalization.

Its like a person going on a long drive after buying a new car on a weekend on a highway to ascertain pickup, breaking distance, mileage etc. Most of us would have done that.

Here are examples, some from Bharat Rakshak reporters themselves -

The MiG-29K was inducted in 2009 as Intensive Flying Trials Unit and the first squadron INAS 303 was formed in 2013, 3.5 years later after intensive flying and exploitation.

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Gall ... induction/

6 of these aircraft have been delivered so far out of which 4 have actually been accepted.Other aircraft will be coming in at peiodic intervals. The operating unit for this aircraft is known as the Intensive Flying Trials Unit (IFTU)-Mig29K.

https://www.indiannavy.nic.in/content/mig-29k

Aircraft deliveries began in Dec 09...Based on the exploitation experience, the first MiG-29K frontline squadron was commissioned on 11 May 13 at INS Hansa, Goa. Capt AD Theophilus was the first Commanding Officer.

The exhaustiveness of the exploitation is described in detail -

Since its induction, the aircraft have flown over 2500 hrs and have successfully concluded armament trials of the entire range of arsenal comprising air to surface missiles, air to air missiles, bombs, rockets and guns. After proving in trials the aircraft have also participated in important theatre level exercises with the Indian Navy and the Indian Air Force. Having successfully completed all tasks and trials assigned and established its combat potential, the MiG-29K squadron has now been commissioned into front line service to form the sword arm of the Indian Navy.

Only after all capabilities have been proven was the squadron formed.

BTW the CAG report on manufacturing defects and higher wear than estimated timelines comes from this Intensive Flying and Exploitation Experience.

More example - Dhruv

https://www.indiannavy.nic.in/content/alhdhruv

The Advanced Light Helicopter (ALH), also known as 'Dhruv', is the first indigenously designed and manufactured helicopter by HAL Bangalore. ALH was inducted into the Indian Navy on 28 Mar 2002. The Intensive Flying and Trials Unit (IFTU), formed at INS Garuda on 10 Feb 2003, undertook three years of intensive flying trials and evaluations. Post completion, the aircraft was cleared for operational exploitation and ALH Flights were established at Kochi and Goa on 01 Sep 05. With the amalgamation of the two units in Dec 09, ALH Flight Kochi remains the sole ALH operating unit in the Navy. The first ALH squadron was commissioned on 12 Nov 13 at INS Garuda, Kochi. The ALH is being employed for a variety of missions including Advanced Search and Rescue, Special Heli-Borne Operations, Armed Patrol, Sniper Ops, VVIP Carriage and Night SAR. Cdr Ravi Sivasankar is the first Commanding Officer of the squadron.

Again, Intensive Flying for 2.5 years before Operational Flights were formed.

More specifically, Standard Operating Procedures for operational roles like Advanced Search and Rescue, Special Heli-Borne Operations, Armed Patrol, Sniper Ops, etc are developed during exploitation. So that a pilot in a squadron has an established procedure for SAR or Sniper Ops using Dhruv, rather than 1. Wonder what do do or 2. Do some jugaad on his own.

One more example - P-8I

http://thediplomat.com/2015/11/india-in ... are-plane/

The first plane was delivered to India in May 2013

Squadron was commissioned 13 November 2015, again after 2.5 years of, to quote Manohar Parrikar -

In his remarks, Parrikar pointed out that even during the extensive trial and testing phases the P-8I aircraft had “achieved a number of operational milestones” including “participation in the search effort for Malaysian Airlines Flight MH 370, the first successful firing of air launched Harpoon Block II missile in the world, torpedo firing, and active participation in major naval exercises.”

Going by what MiG-29K, P-8I & Dhruv went through, that a professional fighting force does, the IAF 45 squadron formation with Tejas SP-1 & SP-2 got a complete waiver from these operationalizing activities for H&D purposes.

All of this is available openly in the internet and despite people choosing to wear blinkers and preach false conspiracy theories, the truth will still prevail.

Anyways in India, if a student fails, parents like Dhritarashtra, Gandhari & Lalu Prasad Yadav blame the invigilator and examiner for failing their baby!

BTW, the MiG-29K met its AoA, ITR, STR, speed, range, payload specifications. Where it suffers is extremely poor manufacturing quality and much less then specified reliability. For assessing Tejas on these issues, sufficient numbers are not even there in service.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 19 Jul 2017 02:45

Ok baba. Exploitation trials were the norm.

Yet the reporter of the Dhanush barrel shell burst claimed this was a new thing.

viewtopic.php?p=2186165#p2186165

We went by that.

No CT.

You are right the full story shows this was a user battery tiral with all six guns firing. It sprudent to have a Failure Review Board or court of inquiry to find out what happened.

Indian Bofors misfires during trials

TNN | May 26, 2017, 05.01 PM IST

NAGPUR: Last week, the first two units of the ultralight 155x39 mm howitzers were delivered to India from the US. It was 30 years after the Swedish Bofors guns were bought that India had acquired new guns of the same calibre. Around the same time, the indigenous version of the howitzers took a set back.

In the second such incident, one of the Indian guns was damaged due to an accident during test fires. Nearly a fortnight ago, as battery trials of Dhanush — the Indian gun were under way at Pokhran — the shell burst soon after ejection from the barrel, said sources.

They say this has damaged the muzzle brake, the part at the front of the barrel. Its function is to absorb recoil created during firing of shells. The howitzers are being made at the Gun Carriage Factory (GCF), Jabalpur. Around 12 pieces have already been made.

This incident has pushed the process back by a month. It happens when the GCF was in the last stage of trials. The firing was part of user exploitation, which was conducted for the first time for any weapon system.

Usually, once a system is cleared through user-trials, it is inducted. "For Dhanush, user exploitation was included after user trials were over," said the sources. This means the army wanted to further use guns to get accustomed to it. Any changes required were also supposed to be suggested.

Prior to this, in 2013, when summer trials were under way at Pokhran, one of the gun was damaged as the shell burst within the barrel. Following an inquiry it was concluded that there was a fault in the ammunition which led to a premature blast and no change was needed in the gun's design. The earlier accident delayed the project by over a year.

"This time the damage was not much, except for the impact on the muzzle brake," said in the know of the development.

"A court of inquiry has been instituted into the matter after which the reasons will be ascertained. However, this has delayed the process by one more month, otherwise all the stages of trials were over. It was for the first time a batter trial was held in which six guns are fired at a time. The problem occurred in one of the guns," said the source.

The next battery trials are planned to be held in June at Pokhran. Though the reports have not been finalized, sources said it is expected that there was a malfunction in ammunition due to which the shell did not travel the entire range.

Now the entire gun will have to be stripped to see if there is any further damage. After this, fresh trials will be conducted.

IN A NUTSHELL

* The project to make Indian 155mm howitzers started in 2011

* Named Dhanush, it has a higher calibre of 155x45mm as compared to original Bofors which is 155x39mm

* Had cleared all tests and was undergoing user exploitation

* The concept of user exploitation was introduced for first time for Dhanush

* Under this, test fires were conducted to get accustomed to the system

* Earlier test-fires under user trial which are otherwise conclusive are over

* Misfire of shell has delayed the process

* Earlier a barrel burst had occurred during trials of 2013

Now tell us why the shell burst so soon after leaving the barrel?

Aren't there certain distance and rotations/minute requirements to prevent fratricide?

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 19 Jul 2017 02:57

^^ There are many reasons for a premature burst, that I wouldn't want to speculate on unless the official investigation report comes out.

Most probable cause is the fuse - there is a time delay mechanism.

One earlier reason was bubbles in the explosive.

One reason late Brig RayC cited for barrel burst was that there were power cuts at the OFB factory where the barrels were auto-fregatted that resumed when power was restored. Typically such products must be discarded because the barrels dont get adequate strength in partial process. However, OFB went ahead and supplied the barrels and they burst.

Fuse, barrel, ammunition premature bursting was very common in WW1 & WW2 when non defence firms started manufacturing them to ramp up production and adequate quality control was not followed.

Added later - this is the fuse http://www.ofbindia.gov.in/products/dat ... /fz/10.htm

More information https://www.scribd.com/document/340248367/M572-PD-Fuze including this one

The booster delay mechanism provides an arming distance of approximately 61 m, but this distance will depend on the weapon involved. It is possible for the M572 PD to function prematurely when fired in heavy-rainfall conditions.

srai · Post by **srai** » 19 Jul 2017 03:02

...
Going by what MiG-29K, P-8I & Dhruv went through, that a professional fighting force does, the IAF 45 squadron formation with Tejas SP-1 & SP-2 got a complete waiver from these operationalizing activities for H&D purposes.
...

In regards to the "user exploitation" not done on the LCA before squadron formation, this one is a home-grown product and all the flight testing itself would be exploitation of sorts by the very IAF pilots deputed to the NFTC, one of whom is leading the IAF squadron formation.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 19 Jul 2017 03:21

srai wrote:
...
Going by what MiG-29K, P-8I & Dhruv went through, that a professional fighting force does, the IAF 45 squadron formation with Tejas SP-1 & SP-2 got a complete waiver from these operationalizing activities for H&D purposes.
...
In regards to the "user exploitation" not done on the LCA before squadron formation, this one is a home-grown product and all the flight testing itself would be exploitation of sorts by the very IAF pilots deputed to the NFTC, one of whom is leading the IAF squadron formation.

No, NFTC pilots or for that matter ASTE Test Pilots only test performance specifications, like flying it to 26 degree AoA, that in itself is a humongous activity.

Exploiting for operational uses is typically done by Intensive Flying Units, that are converted into Operational Conversion Units or Squadrons. They assess if in a dogfight the Tejas does vertical scissors better or a horizontal scissors. For example, the Sabre had better maneuverability in horizontal plane while Gnat had better maneuverability in vertical plane. Historically these were left to pilots to discover themselves by trial & error. However, in 1965, the Hunter didnt do too well against the Sabre which was an inferior aircraft. Thereafter procedures were evolved to discover and exploit strengths. Hence the term "Exploitation Trials"

Kakkaji · Post by **Kakkaji** » 19 Jul 2017 03:27

Could it be that the designated rpm for the fuze occurred closer to the barrel than it should have?

I agree that the quality of the shell needs to be taken out of the equation while testing Dhanush.

These delays are so frustrating at this point when the need is so critical, with two enemies on the borders spoiling to go to war with India.

Those 10 lost years of UPA rule are really biting us badly now.

While the Dhanush induction trials are going on, what happened to the trials of the Kalyani 155mm gun? The ATAGS will go through its own teething troubles. So why not have the Kalyani gun, although less sophisticated than ATAGS, go through the testing and induction cycle now, and thus give some breathing room to the ATAGS?

srai · Post by **srai** » 19 Jul 2017 03:27

^^^

All that data would be available to the IAF. Yes, it takes time to get the squadron fully operational and there will be training time for squadron pilots and maintenance crews. Having said that, at the same time they are being led by Commanding Officer Group Captain Madhav Rangachari, who has flown the LCA for a very long time. There are also quite a few IAF pilots who also have flown the LCA and would form the nucleus of the first squadron. So it's a bit different case.