GST - Discussion on all Aspects

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 16 Jul 2017 05:15

JohnTitor wrote:I get the feeling that the price rises attributed to GST is a lie. Some food shops are actually under reporting revenue by as much as 50% to lower tax incurred. I've seen this in 2 shops in bangalore

So if they buy 100 kg of food, they ask the supplier for an invoice of 50kg and pay for the other 50kg in cash thus keeping it off book.

I am not sure that the tax base will substantially increase

Since most food is tax-free, isn't this more to avoid income tax?

JohnTitor · Post by **JohnTitor** » 16 Jul 2017 11:57

Suraj wrote:And you've done your civic duty and reported them both to the government, right ? You have no excuse not to do so.

No, I'm unaware of where to do that. Where can I do that? Police station?

Also, don't i need some kind of physical proof? All I have is information through conversations

JohnTitor · Post by **JohnTitor** » 16 Jul 2017 11:59

A_Gupta wrote: Since most food is tax-free, isn't this more to avoid income tax?

I'm not sure. Because when they sell the product (ice cream etc), the bill includes GST - so surely they need to pass that on to the govt, right?

I've been told that just because a business gives you a bill, it doesn't mean it is "on the book" and the only thing that can guarantee "on the book" is a non-cash transaction. Funny thing is, many of these places won't accept non-cash currency.

rahulm · Post by **rahulm** » 16 Jul 2017 19:49

I bought cement, sand and other bits and pieces today from a hardware shop.

No bill, everything at pe-GST prices and paid using BHIM. The restaurant I patronise everyday has pre GST prices, hand scribbled bills and I pay by my debit card.

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 16 Jul 2017 20:03

As the check posts removed, people are all doing business in Pre GST system. A lot is happening in Mumbai and MH. No VAT etc and no GST. Enjoy.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 16 Jul 2017 20:49

JohnTitor wrote:
A_Gupta wrote: Since most food is tax-free, isn't this more to avoid income tax?
I'm not sure. Because when they sell the product (ice cream etc), the bill includes GST - so surely they need to pass that on to the govt, right?

I've been told that just because a business gives you a bill, it doesn't mean it is "on the book" and the only thing that can guarantee "on the book" is a non-cash transaction. Funny thing is, many of these places won't accept non-cash currency.

Of coarse just providing bill is not guarantee that tax is being paid on it. You can always have a machine/ computer creating fake bills. Its just like keeping two separate bill books.

And I see many restaurants are for sure gonna under report revenue n income by large margin. They are either going with Composition scheme or with no GST at all. All those I have seen so far are 400% above the limit of revenue for both these categories.

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 16 Jul 2017 20:55

Just like demo, it is a given that small scale tax evasion will still happen. But the ITC will force self regulation for the big fish.

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 17 Jul 2017 02:23

JohnTitor wrote:
Suraj wrote:And you've done your civic duty and reported them both to the government, right ? You have no excuse not to do so.
No, I'm unaware of where to do that. Where can I do that? Police station?

Also, don't i need some kind of physical proof? All I have is information through conversations

disha wrote:Guys., for complaining against restaurants who have jacked up prices post GST (they are all tax frauds)., send an email to blackmoneyinfo@incometax.gov.in with the restaurant details.

rajkumar · Post by **rajkumar** » 18 Jul 2017 14:48

Quick question - GST does cover Mobile Phone calls?

Marten · Post by **Marten** » 18 Jul 2017 15:17

rajkumar wrote:Quick question - GST does cover Mobile Phone calls?

Not individual calls, but telecom services overall. Both prepaid and postpaid services are charged 18% GST.

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 18 Jul 2017 15:48

Will the respective tax collecting agency not be keeping tabs on this at their end ?

For example number of bills last year, bill amount, tax amount collected vs the same number for this year..

I doub't people are reporting. Lack of awareness of such a mechanism, security concerns and even a simple thing like not keeping earlier bills (so unable to substantiate with proof) are some hinderances

Suraj wrote:
JohnTitor wrote:I get the feeling that the price rises attributed to GST is a lie. Some food shops are actually under reporting revenue by as much as 50% to lower tax incurred. I've seen this in 2 shops in bangalore

So if they buy 100 kg of food, they ask the supplier for an invoice of 50kg and pay for the other 50kg in cash thus keeping it off book.

I am not sure that the tax base will substantially increase
And you've done your civic duty and reported them both to the government, right ? You have no excuse not to do so.

krisna · Post by **krisna** » 18 Jul 2017 18:51

Talking with a marketing executive-
He said previously with no gst-people could evade taxes in business. Honest folks looked like stupid.

Now it is the reverse way.

There will be likely some teething problems due to various reasons like huge country,lot of differences and methods to deal in different states. Not all folks in the gst dept well trained .
NaMo and team at top very sincere honest. They have done their job but it the overall team effort which will make huge impact.

According to him, there has been a slow incremental change amongst the merchant community that NaMo is very serious and can be trusted,

He expects 2-3 years before gst could be smooth.

GST is huge challenge unlikely to be done by congress as it needs continuous pressure and adjustments from top. Probably only NaMo has the skills.

Large big companies are doing well relatively to other companies in gst filings including his own.
Small companies are likely to try evading taxes initially but will eventually fall in line. May take few months to 1-2 years.

The marketing executive deals with medical equipment MNC company.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 20 Jul 2017 15:59

Bloomberg story:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... w-tax-plan

On the edge of one of India’s biggest slums, Alauddin Ansari opens a paper ledger of daily sales at his small leather shop and points to a blank page. That’s the tally for today. Nothing.

Before Prime Minister Narendra Modi introduced the country’s new goods and services tax on July 1, Ansari said he was earning 6,000 rupees ($93) a day selling leather jackets, wallets, bags and belts. But India’s new tax classified leather products as luxury items and raised the rate to 28 percent -- more than double the 13.5 percent tax levied until June 30. Since then, his business has collapsed.

"My business is down nearly 75 percent," Ansari said, turning a page to show he made just 850 rupees the previous day at his shop near Mumbai’s vast Dharavi slum. "Obviously, the GST has had an impact on trade. At 28 percent, GST is a bit too much."

"As it boosts compliance, GST will have a negative impact on unorganized sector firms which rely largely on tax arbitrage," Nahar wrote. "While we believe that firms who benefit from tax non-compliance should face consequences, we are concerned on the impact on employment."

rahulm · Post by **rahulm** » 20 Jul 2017 16:09

Today, I went to my granite supplier. No stock, due to the traders strike he said.

He also said, they are scrambling to get GST registrations as upstream suppliers are mandating registration before supply. I returned empty handed but with a big grin on my face.

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 20 Jul 2017 18:29

Textile, tobacco, etc are going through a turmoil now. Will take some time to settle down.

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 20 Jul 2017 19:02

"As it boosts compliance, GST will have a negative impact on unorganized sector firms which rely largely on tax arbitrage," Nahar wrote. "While we believe that firms who benefit from tax non-compliance should face consequences, we are concerned on the impact on employment."

IOW - pre-GST, there were tax evaders benefiting from cheating in unorganized sector. post GST, it is harder to do that anymore, so they may become jobless

what about enterprising folks in unorganized sector (who had to play along in earlier setting which) moving into organized and avails benefits of cheaper capital and grows and hires employees with proper employee benefits and protection etc? wouldn't that be ultimately a good thing for everybody - the employee, the business manager, the economy, the consumer, the govt etc?

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 20 Jul 2017 19:04

rahulm wrote:Today, I went to my granite supplier. No stock, due to the traders strike he said.

He also said, they are scrambling to get GST registrations as upstream suppliers are mandating registration before supply. I returned empty handed but with a big grin on my face.

classic. what were these folks thinking? just sitting on their asses thinking they can be 'business as usual'?

IndraD · Post by **IndraD** » 20 Jul 2017 19:06

http://www.business-standard.com/articl ... 053_1.html
GST impact: Trucks save 8 hrs on Chennai-Delhi run

jayasimha · Post by **jayasimha** » 21 Jul 2017 15:06

Impact of GST on Unnsold stock of prepackaged commodities.

http://consumeraffairs.nic.in/writeread ... dities.pdf

jayasimha · Post by **jayasimha** » 21 Jul 2017 15:11

http://consumeraffairs.nic.in/writeread ... ly2017.pdf

Overview of GST law and procedure
by
Shri Yogendra garg IRS
Addl. DG, Centre of excellence
NACIN

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 21 Jul 2017 18:38

rahulm wrote:Today, I went to my granite supplier. No stock, due to the traders strike he said.

He also said, they are scrambling to get GST registrations as upstream suppliers are mandating registration before supply. I returned empty handed but with a big grin on my face.

About a year back I met a granite fellow. He is worth about 20 Cr and does not pay any income tax. Told me that vat etc is 11% and he does not pay that also. He was very angry at that time itself on NM. One wonders how he is feeling now.

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 22 Jul 2017 01:16

Gus wrote:
"As it boosts compliance, GST will have a negative impact on unorganized sector firms which rely largely on tax arbitrage," Nahar wrote. "While we believe that firms who benefit from tax non-compliance should face consequences, we are concerned on the impact on employment."
IOW - pre-GST, there were tax evaders benefiting from cheating in unorganized sector. post GST, it is harder to do that anymore, so they may become jobless

what about enterprising folks in unorganized sector (who had to play along in earlier setting which) moving into organized and avails benefits of cheaper capital and grows and hires employees with proper employee benefits and protection etc? wouldn't that be ultimately a good thing for everybody - the employee, the business manager, the economy, the consumer, the govt etc?

"Tax arbitrage" haha! That's a fabulous turn of phrase. Not "evasion", but "arbitrage". Yes he's saying that small companies with wafer thin margins were depending on not paying taxes, to stay afloat.

It's great to see GST's forced compliance bringing out so MANY evaders, who *have* to comply now because their buyers won't buy otherwise. That's the best thing about GST - you can'd decide by yourself. Either you find everyone up and downstream to also evade taxes, or you pay.

I haven't seen a GoI circular on this, but I hope the taxman also asks 'the company registration information says you've been running for 10 years but there are no taxes paid until this year. What about all previous years ?"

disha · Post by **disha** » 27 Jul 2017 06:43

Why o Why' this is languishing in the bottom of pits - when this should be way up above.

---

Here is some old news., but very new news for this thread which is punching way below its weight.

As Predicted:

http://www.foxbusiness.com/features/201 ... ivers.html

The transportation cost is down 40%. If people want to make big purchases (like furniture)., now is the time. Go to the hinterland., order good furniture and ship it.

Folks on this thread can easily spend 2-3L re-decorating their own home., dispose of the old furniture and get new one in AND actually make money. Since in 5-7 years when you want to dispose that furniture off - it will be double the value.

Another option., in September - order bulk food items (pulses, rice, wheat, oil) in bulk quantities - directly from wholesalers and store it up. In fact, you can band together with your neighbors, community, flat complex - whatever - and order in a bulk and redistribute it among yourselves. The cost savings will be huge!

jayasimha · Post by **jayasimha** » 31 Jul 2017 18:26

FAQs Relating to GST Migration / Registration
http://empcom.gov.in/WriteReadData/User ... xpress.pdf

In the end we see

Tweet us at @askGST_GoI for any GST Related Query

disha · Post by **disha** » 02 Aug 2017 10:05

What happened to GST will bring down the sky?

A month of GST: India warms up to the new tax regime : http://www.hindustantimes.com/business- ... k87WK.html

IGST collection from imports rises about 60% in just one month of GST http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 853786.cms

^^ With the above trends., 1.2 lakh crore additional tax revenues per year will be mopped up by GOI and States. Think about it., what happens if all of the above goes into infrastructure spending by August 2018?

GST nets a million more taxpayers, registrations cross the 10 lakh ... : http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/busi ... 827226.cms

The tax base just went wiiiiiide. Imagine if if 10 lakh tax payers report revenue of 10 lakhs per year., that is additional 1 lakh crore revenue reported and 12000 crore mopped up.

disha · Post by **disha** » 02 Aug 2017 10:17

Posting this in full., highlights mine.

http://www.oneindia.com/india/one-month ... 11967.html

One month of GST: What traders, customers, manufacturers have to say Written By: Anusha Ravi Published: Tuesday, August 1, 2017, 13:12 [IST]

A month after Goods and Services Tax was rolled out traders, manufacturers and customers are settling into the new tax regime. While eating out has become a little more expensive for the urban middle class, manufacturers are elated over the benefits of Input Tax Credit. advertisement With old stocks in inventories sold out, August looks to have GST complaint prices and taxation on all commodities and supplies.

"I do not see a great difference in my monthly grocery bill. The same need not apply to someone who buys more packaged foods. I suppose it is subjective but for me, the bills are better sorted. GST is split under SGST and CGST clearly on the bill. I know where my money is going," said Samprida, a consumer at a supermarket.

Small traders who were part of the unorganised industry faced difficulties during the first few weeks of the GST regime but now the regulations are becoming clearer. "I own three shops in Chikpete locality of Bengaluru. Business is such shops take place on cash and carry basis and there really is no billing done but under the GST regime, I have to show every single purchase made. I have hired a CA to register myself on the GST network," said a trader who did not wish to be named.

Input Tax Credit being hailed Manufacturers are an elated lot. While the new tax regime resulted in a dip in demand during the first two weeks, input tax credit has come as a blessing. "We receive better input benefits now. Profits are higher since we are receiving input tax credit which is beneficial for the industry. Now that we are receiving profits, the benefits will be transferred to the customers. The percentage will depend on the products and the slab under which manufacturer goods fall," said Uma Shankar, Chairman of sub-committee on GST, the Karnataka small scale industries association

Chartered accountants are now well equipped to handle finances and accounts books. "Many institutions offered special courses to understand GST. Moreover, since enough time was given to understand the tax regime, the fraternity is equipped to redo taxes," said Narasimhan Elangovan, a CA. He added that initial speculation and chaos was as expected but companies and traders were now getting adjusted to the tax regime.

The urban middle class, however, has begun to feel the pinch. "Eating out has become more expensive. Small luxuries of life are costing us more and discouraging us from spending on something. It gives you a feeling that you are ending up spending more than you are earning," said Lasya Umesh, an independent interior designer.

Race to register under new tax regime The union government said that about ten lakh applications for fresh registrations under GST have been received from across the country. The maximum number of applications have come from Maharashtra, Gujarat and Uttar Pradesh. The GSTN has received about 10 lakh applications out of which 1,32,448 applications are from Maharashtra. 90,000 applications have come from Gujarat and over 87,000 from Uttar Pradesh. West Bengal and TamilNadu have submitted 75,000 applications each.

On a daily basis, the GSTN is receiving 40,000 applications on an average.

Traders like those in Gujarat, unhappy over GST are hopeful that tax rates of few items could be changed in the GST council. The demand for lower GST on sanitary napkins is also growing loud. In the case of a trader needing help, a GST helpline operating from 8 AM to 8 PM every day will assist with uploading of invoices and data needed for fresh registration under GST.

vijayk · Post by **vijayk** » 03 Aug 2017 21:36

disha wrote:What happened to GST will bring down the sky?

A month of GST: India warms up to the new tax regime : http://www.hindustantimes.com/business- ... k87WK.html

IGST collection from imports rises about 60% in just one month of GST http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 853786.cms

^^ With the above trends., 1.2 lakh crore additional tax revenues per year will be mopped up by GOI and States. Think about it., what happens if all of the above goes into infrastructure spending by August 2018?

GST nets a million more taxpayers, registrations cross the 10 lakh ... : http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/busi ... 827226.cms

The tax base just went wiiiiiide. Imagine if if 10 lakh tax payers report revenue of 10 lakhs per year., that is additional 1 lakh crore revenue reported and 12000 crore mopped up.

I hope Modi/AJ give this good news and reduce rates

VKumar · Post by **VKumar** » 03 Aug 2017 22:02

disha wrote:What happened to GST will bring down the sky?

A month of GST: India warms up to the new tax regime : http://www.hindustantimes.com/business- ... k87WK.html

IGST collection from imports rises about 60% in just one month of GST http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 853786.cms

^^ With the above trends., 1.2 lakh crore additional tax revenues per year will be mopped up by GOI and States. Think about it., what happens if all of the above goes into infrastructure spending by August 2018?

GST nets a million more taxpayers, registrations cross the 10 lakh ... : http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/busi ... 827226.cms

The tax base just went wiiiiiide. Imagine if if 10 lakh tax payers report revenue of 10 lakhs per year., that is additional 1 lakh crore revenue reported and 12000 crore mopped up.

The GST collected on imports will be set off against GST collected on sales. Also Keep in mind that CVD and SAD are subsumed in GST.

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 03 Aug 2017 22:31

How can professional like doctors be taxed ? Only a small fraction accept card payments and a vast majority are crooks who only want to make money from patients with little choice in every single way possible.

prasannasimha · Post by **prasannasimha** » 03 Aug 2017 22:46

^ Jamwal I think you need to take that sentence back. There are thousands out there working diligently too and you should not generalize.

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 04 Aug 2017 02:09

My own personal experiences and those of my immediate family members say otherwise. A vast majority of doctors are just interested in making money by any means possible and have little concern about welfare of patients.

Now please do not try to justify doctors by saying how poor souls are overworked in hospitals. They are a blot on human race. If i start ranting about what people had to go through due to callous greed of these sanctimonious nparasites, it will not stop for hours.

Atmavik · Post by **Atmavik** » 04 Aug 2017 03:28

prasannasimha wrote:^ Jamwal I think you need to take that sentence back. There are thousands out there working diligently too and you should not generalize.

I know both types. but the few who do honest work make a big impact.

Kashi · Post by **Kashi** » 04 Aug 2017 06:18

jamwal wrote:My own personal experiences and those of my immediate family members say otherwise. A vast majority of doctors are just interested in making money by any means possible and have little concern about welfare of patients.

Now please do not try to justify doctors by saying how poor souls are overworked in hospitals. They are a blot on human race. If i start ranting about what people had to go through due to callous greed of these sanctimonious nparasites, it will not stop for hours.

Rants are fine and so are genuine grievances. But you cannot say that all doctors are "a blot on human race". All of us have to visit doctors from time to time and I am sure everyone has had their share of experiences-good and bad.

ragupta · Post by **ragupta** » 04 Aug 2017 07:07

Kashi wrote:
jamwal wrote:My own personal experiences and those of my immediate family members say otherwise. A vast majority of doctors are just interested in making money by any means possible and have little concern about welfare of patients.

Now please do not try to justify doctors by saying how poor souls are overworked in hospitals. They are a blot on human race. If i start ranting about what people had to go through due to callous greed of these sanctimonious nparasites, it will not stop for hours.
Rants are fine and so are genuine grievances. But you cannot say that all doctors are "a blot on human race". All of us have to visit doctors from time to time and I am sure everyone has had their share of experiences-good and bad.

lately I am hearing about only greedy doctors. Specially the one in big hospitals or running private services, they charge as per your insurance policy, first money and then services. Even the bills are bloated, use one gloves charge for whole box, do that same for several times a day. I know of many such experience from friends and family. Further they will make you go round different specialist, each one will have a cut in the referal.

prahaar · Post by **prahaar** » 04 Aug 2017 15:40

What has caused the removal of immigration forms while catching an international flight? I was told by the security guy that this has stopped after GST. Is this a coincidence or somehow connected? Delhi airport ordeal has become a breeze. Fully stocked immigration counters, no forms to fill with kids, super short queues in Delhi airport, never had a better experience.

Atmavik · Post by **Atmavik** » 04 Aug 2017 16:27

prahaar wrote:What has caused the removal of immigration forms while catching an international flight? I was told by the security guy that this has stopped after GST. Is this a coincidence or somehow connected? Delhi airport ordeal has become a breeze. Fully stocked immigration counters, no forms to fill with kids, super short queues in Delhi airport, never had a better experience.

going out was a breeze but coming in was a diff story at HYD. all because the line we got stuck in was moving 10 times slower. the person working in did not give a damn how much time it took he kept working at glacial pace. all others were pretty quick.

is there any procedure to complain?

prahaar · Post by **prahaar** » 04 Aug 2017 18:35

I raised this here, to ask if there is any actual relation to GST for removing those immigration forms. Immigration queue discussion we can take up in the appropriate thread, e.g., Nukkad. Sorry for the digression.

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 04 Aug 2017 18:36

prahaar wrote:What has caused the removal of immigration forms while catching an international flight? I was told by the security guy that this has stopped after GST. Is this a coincidence or somehow connected? Delhi airport ordeal has become a breeze. Fully stocked immigration counters, no forms to fill with kids, super short queues in Delhi airport, never had a better experience.

unrelated. it was redundant even ways back, because passport details can be used to track you across many systems in much more reliable way than whatever info and trackability that emigration form provides. it was just something they kept going just because they were used to it..and nobody asked 'why do we still need this'..

prasannasimha · Post by **prasannasimha** » 04 Aug 2017 19:25

jamwal wrote:My own personal experiences and those of my immediate family members say otherwise. A vast majority of doctors are just interested in making money by any means possible and have little concern about welfare of patients.

Now please do not try to justify doctors by saying how poor souls are overworked in hospitals. They are a blot on human race. If i start ranting about what people had to go through due to callous greed of these sanctimonious nparasites, it will not stop for hours.

N=1 is called an anecdotal experience. Of course there are bad sheep out there bu that does not mean all are bad. have your rants against the bad ones but don't make everyone bad. That is wrong and illogical

JohnTitor · Post by **JohnTitor** » 05 Aug 2017 18:04

^^ I think we should get back to the thread and see if the issue that jamwal brought up can be addressed... I.e.

How can professional like doctors be taxed ? Only a small fraction accept card payments