Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 18 Jul 2017 10:01

Thank you for that deejay. Beautifully written.

A Deshmukh · Post by **A Deshmukh** » 18 Jul 2017 11:26

Paul wrote:India begins talks for French Jaguar fighters
http://www.defensenews.com/articles/ind ... r-fighters

From the article:

Of the €7.8 billion, the platform costs approximately €3.42 billion; another €1.8 billion is for infrastructure and support supplies; €1.7 billion will be spent to meet India-specific changes to the aircraft; €710 million is for the additional weapons package; and €353 million is the cost of performance-based logistics support.

Total Rafale Project (36) = € 7.8 B (~$9B)
Cost of Planes: €3.42 B (€ 95 M per plane = $109M /plane).
Infrastructure and Support Supplies = € 1.8 B
India specific changes: €1.7 billion (mounting new-generation Meteor and Scalp missiles)
Additional Weapons: €710 million
Logistics support: €353 million

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 18 Jul 2017 11:30

I like they idea of buying some Jaguars, Mig 29's and M-2000's to keep numbers up until the LCA can replace them up. It is far better idea that Single Jet Fighter thingie.

These can give cushion till the LCA MK1, 1A and MK 11 replace the Mig 21 Bisions, balance of Mig 27's which need replacement.

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 18 Jul 2017 11:54

Aditya_V wrote:I like they idea of buying some Jaguars, Mig 29's and M-2000's to keep numbers up until the LCA can replace them up. It is far better idea that Single Jet Fighter thingie.

These can give cushion till the LCA MK1, 1A and MK 11 replace the Mig 21 Bisions, balance of Mig 27's which need replacement.

We are not buying additional Jaguars

@Livefist

Livefist wrote: 12:19 PM - 17 Jul 2017 - These are for parts, not airframes to-go. Offer actually bigger: parts cannibalisation on 30 Jaguars & to-go Mirage 2000 airframes.
12:22 PM - 17 Jul 2017 - IAF's effort to replace 2 Mirages lost in crashes still hasn't been concluded. We hear there's a stalemate there between HAL & Dassault.
12:27 PM - 17 Jul 2017 - France aggressively milks dead jets for biz from current users. Last month, Argentinian team arrived to cannibalise 7 Super Etendards.
7:23 PM - 17 Jul 2017 - A few, if at all. Though the French govt envisions a push of up to 40 jets.(to-go Mirage 2000 airframes)

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 18 Jul 2017 12:04

We are spending a colossal amt. on M2K upgrades,working out to around $50M a unit.Brand new MIG-29UG/35, std.cost between $30M to 40M.It's why M2K oldies less attractive than MIG-29s (Malaysian).

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 18 Jul 2017 12:30

Thank you Deejay sir for your posts like the one below. It helps keep the faith.

deejay wrote: Mandy was a close friend and a coursemate. On Sunday (16th July) was the bhog at Patiala. We lost him on 04th. Still can't get it in my head that he is gone. We shared a room during training. One of the first in the course to fly Captain over Siachen Glacier. A great runner. The smile and the polite jokes. Just nothing that you could fault him with.

Though he did not play any major role in operationalizing the Dhruv but once in the units it were people like Dhillon who made it their "baby" so to speak.

A special mention and salute goes out to the family. The sheer dignity and composure of the family in handling this irreparable loss is inspirational in itself. Mandy's father is a retired Air Force Officer as is his Father -in - Law. He has left behind 02 young children, a daughter and a son. Mrs. Dhillon is bravely picking up the pieces. May God give them strength. Punjab Govt has assured the lady of a government job, so I hope that works out. Hopefully there will be some ex-gratia from the Arunachal Govt.

Miss you Mandy. Stay happy wherever you are mate.

srai · Post by **srai** » 18 Jul 2017 16:06

Kakarat wrote:
Aditya_V wrote:I like they idea of buying some Jaguars, Mig 29's and M-2000's to keep numbers up until the LCA can replace them up. It is far better idea that Single Jet Fighter thingie.

These can give cushion till the LCA MK1, 1A and MK 11 replace the Mig 21 Bisions, balance of Mig 27's which need replacement.
We are not buying additional Jaguars

@Livefist

Livefist wrote: 12:19 PM - 17 Jul 2017 - These are for parts, not airframes to-go. Offer actually bigger: parts cannibalisation on 30 Jaguars & to-go Mirage 2000 airframes.
12:22 PM - 17 Jul 2017 - IAF's effort to replace 2 Mirages lost in crashes still hasn't been concluded. We hear there's a stalemate there between HAL & Dassault.
12:27 PM - 17 Jul 2017 - France aggressively milks dead jets for biz from current users. Last month, Argentinian team arrived to cannibalise 7 Super Etendards.
7:23 PM - 17 Jul 2017 - A few, if at all. Though the French govt envisions a push of up to 40 jets.(to-go Mirage 2000 airframes)

That's two squadrons worth of Mirage 2000. Two more squadrons worth could be picked up from Qatar and UAE. There would be more from French AF in a few years.

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 18 Jul 2017 16:17

srai wrote: That's two squadrons worth of Mirage 2000. Two more squadrons worth could be picked up from Qatar and UAE. There would be more from French AF in a few years.

Sraiji Saab, hope you realize that not one of them is in flying condition.

Akshay Kapoor · Post by **Akshay Kapoor** » 18 Jul 2017 16:35

Manish_P wrote:Thank you Deejay sir for your posts like the one below. It helps keep the faith.

deejay wrote: Mandy was a close friend and a coursemate. On Sunday (16th July) was the bhog at Patiala. We lost him on 04th. Still can't get it in my head that he is gone. We shared a room during training. One of the first in the course to fly Captain over Siachen Glacier. A great runner. The smile and the polite jokes. Just nothing that you could fault him with.

Though he did not play any major role in operationalizing the Dhruv but once in the units it were people like Dhillon who made it their "baby" so to speak.

A special mention and salute goes out to the family. The sheer dignity and composure of the family in handling this irreparable loss is inspirational in itself. Mandy's father is a retired Air Force Officer as is his Father -in - Law. He has left behind 02 young children, a daughter and a son. Mrs. Dhillon is bravely picking up the pieces. May God give them strength. Punjab Govt has assured the lady of a government job, so I hope that works out. Hopefully there will be some ex-gratia from the Arunachal Govt.

Miss you Mandy. Stay happy wherever you are mate.

Thanks Deejay for this beautiful tribute and last post for Wingco Mandy. It's so personal for you as he is your coursemate and room mate too. My deeest condolences.

My email is firstname last name 108 at gmail. Do drop me mail.

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 18 Jul 2017 16:40

Bala Vignesh wrote: Sraiji Saab, hope you realize that not one of them is in flying condition.

From what I understand the Jaguars are the ones not in flying condition and Mirage 2000 could be soon to be retired or just retired. I don't think IAF will be buying any if they are not flight worthy or not having enough service life. The French have made an offer but don't know whats the reaction of IAF or GOI

Marten · Post by **Marten** » 18 Jul 2017 17:32

Bala, are you sure the UAE units are non operational?
btw, Taiwan has 56 M2Ks that were supposedly up for retirement. Brazil probably has already retired 12 that it operated until recently.

Was under the impression our M2K units at least 1, 7 were 12 single seaters and 2-4 trainers. Could someone kindly edumacate?

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 18 Jul 2017 19:16

Marten wrote:Bala, are you sure the UAE units are non operational?
btw, Taiwan has 56 M2Ks that were supposedly up for retirement. Brazil probably has already retired 12 that it operated until recently.

Was under the impression our M2K units at least 1, 7 were 12 single seaters and 2-4 trainers. Could someone kindly edumacate?

Marten sir,
I was talking about the the FAF mirages, not the UAE/Qatari ones. Those are very much operational, iirc.

Our No1 and No 7 squadrons are at full authorised strength of 16+2 while the No 9 is understrength by a flight (only 9-12 birds on strength) and most of them twin seaters.

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 19 Jul 2017 02:42

Paul wrote:Shiv, you are in trouble now.

India begins talks for French Jaguar fighters
http://www.defensenews.com/articles/ind ... r-fighters

Left Ball on the line if I recall correctly.

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 19 Jul 2017 02:42

Rakesh wrote:Thank you for that deejay. Beautifully written.

Yes Indeed.
Thanks Deejay.

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 19 Jul 2017 02:46

ACM flies the rafael
https://twitter.com/livefist/status/887305719707443200

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 19 Jul 2017 03:10

Marten wrote:Bala, are you sure the UAE units are non operational?
btw, Taiwan has 56 M2Ks that were supposedly up for retirement. Brazil probably has already retired 12 that it operated until recently.

Was under the impression our M2K units at least 1, 7 were 12 single seaters and 2-4 trainers. Could someone kindly edumacate?

the UAE's Mirages are doing just fine, they're not near being retired, especially since the supposed UAE deal for Rafales never came through. Qatar's Mirage 2000-5s could be snapped up if a decent offer is made, since they're due to get Rafale deliveries from 2018 onwards. Taiwan won't part with its Mirage-2000-5s, they need all available airframes. They've supposedly had trouble with parts thanks to Chinese pressure on the French, but that doesn't mean they're nearing retirement.

France itself is looking to retire its oldest Mirage-2000Cs. Those will be the ones that will be offered. Will be interesting to see if they're just used as Christmas trees for supporting the rest of the fleet or whether they'll be put through the Mirage-2000I/TI upgrade like the rest of the IAF's Mirages.

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 20 Jul 2017 06:39

deejay wrote:
Miss you Mandy. Stay happy wherever you are mate.

Beautifully written deejay. Its a big loss. Do you have any info from the grapevine on what might have gone wrong? I know CoI will be still looking into it. But just wanted to see if there were any initial clues.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 20 Jul 2017 07:04

Khalsa wrote:
Paul wrote:Shiv, you are in trouble now.

India begins talks for French Jaguar fighters
http://www.defensenews.com/articles/ind ... r-fighters
Left Ball on the line if I recall correctly.

We can also "begin talks" about that..just sayin

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 20 Jul 2017 10:29

putnanja wrote:
deejay wrote:
Miss you Mandy. Stay happy wherever you are mate.
Beautifully written deejay. Its a big loss. Do you have any info from the grapevine on what might have gone wrong? I know CoI will be still looking into it. But just wanted to see if there were any initial clues.

Please wait for CoI to give the verdict but all indications are bad weather.

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 20 Jul 2017 10:45

shiv wrote:
Khalsa wrote: Left Ball on the line if I recall correctly.

We can also "begin talks" about that..just sayin

LOL
talks talks and more talks.

much rather have a scotch

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 20 Jul 2017 10:48

Indian Air Force may fly PM's aircraft after Air India sale

The Indian Air Force (IAF) might own and operate the aircraft used by the President and the prime minister (PM) in long-distance travel after the privatisation of Air India, a top government official said on Wednesday. At present, an Air India Boeing 747 is used by the President and the PM for long-duration, transcontinental flights, while the IAF’s Air Headquarters Communication Squadron operates a number of Boeing Business Jets, other executive jets, and helicopters for travel within the country and to neighbouring nations.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 20 Jul 2017 10:50

IAF will have to buy 2-3 wide body to fly VVIP PM/President etc for Trancontinental Flights unless they are fine with multiple hops and refuelling with BBJ

Chinmay · Post by **Chinmay** » 20 Jul 2017 11:35

The GoI will simply transfer those 747s to the IAF. It is unnecessary to buy new aircraft for that purpose.

kvraghav · Post by **kvraghav** » 20 Jul 2017 11:41

There was a proposal to use the 3 Boeing 777 for this purpose out of the new lot that Air India had booked after handing over the current 747 back.

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 20 Jul 2017 14:18

Air India has no 777 on order iirc, only 788.

kvraghav · Post by **kvraghav** » 20 Jul 2017 15:15

Bala Vignesh wrote:Air India has no 777 on order iirc, only 788.

Sorry, they were supposed to order new 777 for Pm and President.

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 20 Jul 2017 16:09

This was under discussion, don't recall IAF/AI placing an order for the same..

sankum · Post by **sankum** » 20 Jul 2017 22:36

Kamov military helicopters to India will begin within two years of the signing of the contract

sankum · Post by **sankum** » 20 Jul 2017 22:37

Swiss firm not extending maintenance deal for India's PC-7 trainers

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 21 Jul 2017 11:56

Why isn't there a service/support facility in India as being part of the deal? Haven't we learnt our lessons from the Sov. era systems support after the USSR ended? Well-knowing that the maintenance expiry date was around the corner,the MOD/IAF should've taken early measures for the same.Typical babudom costing the nation and taxpayer dearly.The Swiss will now demand an arm and a leg for continued support and HAL's basic trainer wonder still has years fo flight testing before it can enters series production and a reliable chain of support established.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 22 Jul 2017 01:24

sankum wrote:Swiss firm not extending maintenance deal for India's PC-7 trainers

"The MoD, under the current rule of the NDA government, is not likely [to] give support for [a] major contract for spares of Pilatus, and IAF has to maintain the fleet within the existing budget for the entire fleet," the IAF official said."

Firstly its MOD not extending contract for spares not Swiss not extending.
Secondly, it's an un-named official.
Thirdly, it hasn't happened yet. Could/may/perhaps happen. Speculative and perhaps arms twisting to exercise the remaining options.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 22 Jul 2017 08:44

Be fully prepared: IAF officer to personnel
http://indianexpress.com/article/india/ ... l-4761787/

Air Officer Commanding-in-Chief (AOC-in-C) of the South Western Air Command, Air Marshal R K Dhir, visited the strategically important Air Force Station Pune....

FYI...Air Marshal Dhir was the pilot who flew the first production MiG-21 Bison in 2002. Pls see below...

The MiG-21 Bison Upgrade Programme
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Aircr ... Bison.html

Wg Cdr Dhir flew the first ‘series’ production UPG (CU-2782) on Jan 25th, 2002.

Biography on Air Marshal R K Dhir
http://www.indiastrategic.in/topstories ... ommand.htm

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Database/15678

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 22 Jul 2017 10:02

Really moving Deejay. My condolences.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 22 Jul 2017 23:55

Swiss firm not extending maintenance deal for India's PC-7 trainers

http://www.defensenews.com/articles/swi ... 7-trainers

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 23 Jul 2017 03:13

unfrikkin believable...

shaun · Post by **shaun** » 23 Jul 2017 07:40

They must be scared shit going for maintenance deal on their built PCs , finding they were being screwed up badly by our badass sky warriors

!! Speaks volume of our training regime. A maintenance contract brings tons of money .

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 23 Jul 2017 12:11

huh?? they want more money and our mod wants to give less and only one caught up in the mess is the IAFs logistics establishment..these are just pressure tactics.

negi · Post by **negi** » 23 Jul 2017 12:36

Well we are facing a classic problem we are probably largest importers of finished parts and arms ; Chinese might be buying more in sheer dollar terms but they are not dependent on suppliers for simple things like nuts, bolts and bearings . We are nook nude in this department and at mercy of jugad and a few working relations with existing suppliers .

I can actually tell you for a fact how IAF will work around this ; they will do exactly what they did in the past i.e. reduce the effective number of flying AC and reserve some of them for spares . IN did the same with Tupolevs and even UK sourced Sea Kings and Harriers .

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 23 Jul 2017 13:05

Two very different (but connected) points in that post

"The follow-on guarantee of further 36 months beyond December 2016 is not being cleared by MoD on grounds of steep price," the MoD official said.

and

The Swiss company was unavailable for comment, but an Indian Air Force official asserted that the Pilatus is not extending the contract because the MoD decided against buying additional PC-7 Turbo Trainers, "which were earlier agreed upon."

So it seems basically that Pilatus is saying the prices of the maintenance have gone up since 2012.. so either pay at the new rates OR buy additional aircraft (agreed earlier ?!) and get a discount on the maintenance charges

tushar_m · Post by **tushar_m** » 23 Jul 2017 13:38

In other words HTT-40 is doing well.

We can maintain these aircraft's without OEM support since engine can be maintained by Pratt & Whitney support.