Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 21 Jul 2017 13:26

hitlers thin shaft via the crimea to baku on caspian would have been shattered if the stalingrad region was left behind for a russian counteroffensive later.

ofcourse he could have chosen not make a issue of the city itself and just control the countryside and the shores of the volga, leaving it as a enclave on the west bank.

but whatever you do , russia is too vast a land to be ever conquered ... 200 divisions can vanish into its tractless forests.....a Tu160 blackjack did a 20 hr flight once around border of russia to test its endurance. its people are devout, hard drinking, hard fighting and heavily armed....

asgkhan · Post by **asgkhan** » 21 Jul 2017 13:26

How about
* inviting Dalai Lama in AP/Sikkim ?
* Start a 'Save Tibet' campaign in NY/Washington
* Start a discussion on 'disputed' status of Tibet in Parliament
* Send a sample shipment of Brahmos free to Vietnam
* Attach duties on Cheeni imports
* Mass Mail used toilet papers to Cheeni ambassador

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 21 Jul 2017 13:28

chola wrote:Their base GDP is $11T, ours is $2T. If we grow by the projected top of our range at 8% (we grew at 6.7% in last quarter) and the PRC at their projected low end 4% (they were 6.9% in the latest quarter):

8% x 2T is $160B : 4% x 11T is $440B. So even if we took the best case scenario, they will add close to three times what we will add to our economy.

Economic might does not matter really , Vitenam and most recently Afghanistan has shown that you can still Compete or Win if you can fight on your own terms and hold your own ground

You can spend your GDP any ways no matter how big it is and specially if you have huge debt .... there is no magic printing press that one can print till eternity with no consquences .doesnt happen in real world , Chinese day of recokning is near and as each day goes by it is getting closer

Iyersan · Post by **Iyersan** » 21 Jul 2017 13:35

China editorial slams 'lying' Sushma on Doklam standoff, threatens military escalation
http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/indi ... 07437.html

Bloody nation of traders, manipulators and farts

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 21 Jul 2017 13:42

Fu(kers sit their puny a$$es in Aksai Chin and talk about not withdrawing from chinese soil. Imo we should just sit it out from now on and wait for them to turn blue after all their bluster. After the all-party meeting discussing the issue, imo there was no need to even talk about it in Parl but here we are. Anyone who threatens war at the drop of a hat isn't someone you sit and talk to. Pigeon's visit should be fun and tense at the border.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 21 Jul 2017 13:49

Iyersan wrote:China editorial slams 'lying' Sushma on Doklam standoff, threatens military escalation
http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/indi ... 07437.html

Bloody nation of traders, manipulators and farts

Let them. Only shows them up. Mean-e-while the longer the keep issuing threats and NOT do anything the more they keep loosing face. After all the whole world is watching.

We sight tight and watch them $hit all over the place.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 21 Jul 2017 13:50

Tx. SS for your endorsement.You are spot on.We have to challenge China's changing the names of territory and waters that don't belong to it vociferously.Smaller nations in times of distress,do look up to nations who challenge their enemy. They would like to survive. The best example is our very own former Maharajah of J&K ,who dithered about joining the Indian union until the Pakis lit a torch under his backside!

Edmund Burke said it a long time ago, about "evil flourishing when good people did nothing". The same holds good with evil nations like China. If good nations keep quiet and do b*gger all,the Chinese will simply swarm all over them .The Chinese are using a tactic similar to a Sumo technique called "Yorikiri".It is a "push and shove" technique described a such:

yorikiri a kimarite in which the attacker drives his opponent out backwards while maintaining a constant grip on his mawashi (belt).

The Chinese use the ":constant grip",or should we say "constant gripe" about India,etc.,occupying "their" territory,producing fake documents from ancient times to "prove their point".India needs to publish a most ancient document to show that the whole of China at one time belonged to India,Kailash Mansarovar,etc.etc.Why we've never done so only shows that the Delhi establishment are a bunch of eunuchs. Did the Chinese do anything while Mrs. G was alive? Even Rajiv faced upto them. It is now because Mr.Modi has arrived and is sweeping out the cobwebs and deadwood in the MOD,MEA and India's security attitude,that the Chinese want to seize the window of opportunity before it closes during his era.

Who are equally worried are the Pakis,as Modi has called their Baluchi bluff,combating with force their continued cross-border terror ,even crossing the LOC to eliminate their scum.Expecting even worse punishment,the Pakis and Chinese are now engaged in this JV,where China is exerting pressure upon India,so that we lessen the pressure off Pak. The Doklan gambit may even be a decoy,with a real Chinese thrust in Ladakh,where combined Chinese and Paki forces operating out of POK could pose a real danger to J&K and threaten Siachen too.Pak has failed to unseat us from the Siachen heights ,a painful diabetic sore that it carries.Ladakh,

Capt.Bharat Verma said this 4 years ago,predicting a conflict with China.He was v.prophetic.the reasons the same today except that Snake-Oil Singh has been replaced by the tough Mr.Modi ,a strong Indian leader who the Chinese have feared would quickly strengthen India's military,making it far tougher for China to age war. In fact,Mr.Modi has gone sev. steps further in that his diplomatic offensive with the US,maritime policy,etc. is paying dividends infuriating the Chinese.

http://www.business-standard.com/articl ... 263_1.html
Incursions in Ladakh, a prelude a coming war with China, says analyst Bharat Verma
ANI | New Delhi
July 21, 2013
Xcpt:

Verma also said that the Chinese strategy has chosen the present time to provoke India because they are aware that New Delhi is not prepared. He further said that the Chinese are also aware that India might have a "no-nonsense" government from the 2014 Lok Sabha elections and considerably increase their military strength in the coming years to counter China. As a result, Verma said, the present time makes India a "soft-target" which is vulnerable right now.

"China can attack India across the borders and there is a clear calculation in (the) Chinese mind that if India becomes militarily very strong in the next few years, it will lose this window of opportunity. At present, the Government of India led by Dr. Manmohan Singh is too weak, is in too much of crisis, is too confused. It also appears there's a huge Chinese lobby within the Government of India and within India, which stops government of India from taking any action against the Chinese", Verma said.

Earlier in the day even Communist Part of India (CPI) leader D. Raja commented on Chinese incursions and said that the India -China relations are moving forward but India needs to take up the issue strongly with the leadership of China.

"There should not be any provocative action from the Chinese army. There is forward movement. India should take up this issue with the leadership of China. India should register its strong protest with the Chinese leadership if the incidents are recurring and provoking", Raja said.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 21 Jul 2017 13:50

I think that it is also time for India to go shriller on CPEC passing through sovereign Indian territory currently under Pakistani occupation.

China's words and comments may be hilarious at times and they may be shooting-at-their-own-feet most of the times (and when cornered, they offer no explanation), but their actions are hardly made on an impulse and hardly not well thought-through.

Usually, they have multiple aims so that at least a few would succeed. One technique is that they claim your territories and then 'concede' in one place asking you to reciprocate in the other place where they are vitally interested. In Bhutan as well, they claim Bhutanese territory elsewhere (up north), which they are willing to barter for, Dokalam plateau in West Bhutan, for example.

But, Doka La is another case altogether. Among the aims of China that I can think of in the present stand-off are:

Drive a wedge between Bhutan & India
Fortify a claim for territory that is not China's
Threaten a small state like Bhutan directly
If a 'threatened' India surrenders, a strategic piece of real-estate is acquired for a future use against it
Displace India incrementally from heights disadvantageous to China in the tri-junction area
Probe the Indian resolve
Retaliate against India over its OBOR stand which significantly dented its image in the May BRI Conference
Convey to other nations, especially US,Japan & ASEAN, that China pursues vigorously its territorial claims and is not afraid to use appropriate means against any country
Expose the 'fragility' of the emerging informal alliance in Asia and show up to nations that it is better to hitch with Chinese imperialism than the US

But, there could be also another aim which is to justify Chinese intervention in case of a future war between India & Pakistan. This was openly hinted at by a Global Times analyst (though we discount the usual frothing-at-mouth-corners type of analysts that Global Times employs). A few days later, China's Foreign office 'offered' its good offices to sort out differences between India & Pakistan. Since 1962, China has been toying with the idea of generating some noise at India's eastern borders whenever Pakistan attacked on the western borders. Though it was not significant and the Chinese have been more circumspect on the ground than in the media, the fact remains that they do entertain such a thought.

Now, Pakistan has become a Chinese province (or 'protectorate' according to how one sees it). The CPEC is the template for and the most critical component of OBOR, for the success of both land and sea corridors. Xi has staked personally on this. China wants Gwadar badly and the hinterland route to it from Kashgar. He is getting doubts whether India would let that happen, through its possible covert (sabotage) & overt (war) actions as India has firmly opposed this. He wants to be ready to intervene if India attacks G&B. He is preparing the ground and would use this stand-off to gain concessions from Pakistan citing possible risks that China could not allow. Pakistan may even enter into a special agreement to give China a status similar to what India enjoys with Bhutan.

Xi is also tightening his noose around the Politburo, dismissing a 'Wen Jiabao' faction member from the highest governing council two days back. The upcoming CPC Congress is important because many posts would need to be filled up and Xi would naturally stuff his supporters in. He would ratchet up nationalism in the run up to the Congress, a usual Chinese tactic. He would therefore like the decibel-level of the rhetoric to go up a few notches. He would be glad if GoI reacts because that would give him an opportunity to raise the heat further. But, he would be careful not to go to war because it may spin out of his control as India can effectively counterpunch in a limited engagement. That would be the end of Xi's 'China dreams'. There are too many knives out for him within the Party & PLA.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 21 Jul 2017 13:52

Prasad wrote:Fu(kers sit their puny a$$es in Aksai Chin and talk about not withdrawing from chinese soil. Imo we should just sit it out from now on and wait for them to turn blue after all their bluster. After the all-party meeting discussing the issue, imo there was no need to even talk about it in Parl but here we are. Anyone who threatens war at the drop of a hat isn't someone you sit and talk to. Pigeon's visit should be fun and tense at the border.

The favorite Chinese tactics is to insult visiting dignitaries. Lets see. First it will be Doval who will be followed by Modi.

nam · Post by **nam** » 21 Jul 2017 13:53

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/as ... c8d2a19f05

Tensions flared last month in the southernmost part of Tibet in an area also claimed by Indian ally Bhutan, after Chinese teams began building a road onto the Doklam Plateau.

Bhutan, a tiny Himalayan kingdom, sought help from New Delhi, which sent troops across the border from the northeastern state of Sikkim

The words are exactly what we want.

India standing up with real force for a ally, a small country, bullied by a big bad China and not backing down. For the all talk of Asia pivot and what now, we are yet to see American Marines on SCS islands.

It will heard very loudly is Asian countries.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 21 Jul 2017 13:56

SSridhar wrote:I think that it is also time for India to go shriller on CPEC passing through sovereign Indian territory currently under Pakistani occupation.

What if India is using Doka la standoff to drive home its view on CPEC also being similar *infringement* on Indian territory by the Chinese?

It does not matter that the Chinese will brush it aside. The high pitched Chinese squeal about *Sovereignty* will be used by India to present its case on CPEC to the rest of the world. Use Chinese words against them.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 21 Jul 2017 13:59

Chinese troops squatting in POK would be tantamount to a declaration of war.We have to be prepared for that eventuality,sooner rather than later ,and must take decisive measures now to prevent that from happening. If it means a conflict with Pak to stalemate that happening,so be it. in such a limited conflict,as Pak has no logistical stamina for a long fight,Gwadar must get the "3rd degree" treatment as well as all Paki-Chinese regions of opportunity,destroying elements of the Karakorum Highway ,and other key points of its proposed road/rail corridor through Pak.Now that the US appears to be on the side of the Baluchis,a full-court-press must be made to accelerate that happy event,the liberation of Baluchistan.

chola · Post by **chola** » 21 Jul 2017 14:07

Austin wrote:
chola wrote:Their base GDP is $11T, ours is $2T. If we grow by the projected top of our range at 8% (we grew at 6.7% in last quarter) and the PRC at their projected low end 4% (they were 6.9% in the latest quarter):

8% x 2T is $160B : 4% x 11T is $440B. So even if we took the best case scenario, they will add close to three times what we will add to our economy.
Economic might does not matter really , Vitenam and most recently Afghanistan has shown that you can still Compete or Win if you can fight on your own terms and hold your own ground

You can spend your GDP any ways no matter how big it is and specially if you have huge debt .... there is no magic printing press that one can print till eternity with no consquences .doesnt happen in real world , Chinese day of recokning is near and as each day goes by it is getting closer

Vietnam and Afghanistan could have been leveled to the ground and annihilated like Rome did to Carthage if the US so chose. The US economy allowed that option.

That said, we are not talking about being invaded by a humane democracy like the US. We're talking about geo-political competition. Cheen cannot invade Vietnam and Afghanistan like the US much less India so stop right there with the comparison.

The competition between Bharat and Cheen is mainly over influence and status. It will happen mostly in peace time where money and resources rule. They have more resources that is the bottom line there.

Growth rate portends potential but it means nothing in the near future. Power is based on absolute numbers. India is far more powerful than Belgium even though the Belgians have a higher per capita income and India is far more powerful than Ethiopia even though the Ethiopians have a faster growth rate. The same applies for Cheen and Bharat.

Japan has been printing for decades now. So has the US. Until you go into hyperinflation you can safely print as much as you want. For nearly every other country on earth outside Japan and the US, printing money and thereby incurring insane amount debt to oneself was not possible simply because your currency will inflate to worthless levels. The fact that Cheen is doing that without plunging into hyperinflation is indicative of an US/Japan style printing press and that to me is a fvcking bad game changer.

Their day of reckoning could come soon or it might not. Just like the US and Japan. Hoping they would simply collapse is not a strategy.

Beating their arse militarily with the overwhelming advantages we currently hold is a far better bet.

Iyersan · Post by **Iyersan** » 21 Jul 2017 14:14

nam wrote:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/as ... c8d2a19f05

Tensions flared last month in the southernmost part of Tibet in an area also claimed by Indian ally Bhutan, after Chinese teams began building a road onto the Doklam Plateau.

Bhutan, a tiny Himalayan kingdom, sought help from New Delhi, which sent troops across the border from the northeastern state of Sikkim
The words are exactly what we want.

India standing up with real force for a ally, a small country, bullied by a big bad China and not backing down. For the all talk of Asia pivot and what now, we are yet to see American Marines on SCS islands.

It will heard very loudly is Asian countries.

Link not functioning

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 21 Jul 2017 14:16

SSridhar wrote:Probe the Indian resolve

<snip>

Now, Pakistan has become a Chinese province (or 'protectorate' according to how one sees it). The CPEC is the template for and the most critical component of OBOR, for the success of both land and sea corridors. Xi has staked personally on this. China wants Gwadar badly and the hinterland route to it from Kashgar. He is getting doubts whether India would let that happen, through its possible covert (sabotage) & overt (war) actions as India has firmly opposed this. He wants to be ready to intervene if India attacks G&B. He is preparing the ground and would use this stand-off to gain concessions from Pakistan citing possible risks that China could not allow. Pakistan may even enter into a special agreement to give China a status similar to what India enjoys with Bhutan.
<snip>

This is the most critical point. If China takes over GB in any shape or form it will bring it in direct conflict with India as never before.

India's response at Doka la could be a measure of the risks such a move will involve. If India shows its commitment to defend what it considers its *strategic interests* that would be a signal of what to plan for if they indeed want to move on GB.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 21 Jul 2017 14:26

chola wrote: Vietnam and Afghanistan could have been leveled to the ground and annihilated like Rome did to Carthage if the US so chose. The US economy allowed that option.

What do you think they did in Vietnam and Afghanistan then , inspite of the annihilation they did there they did not win the game

That said, we are not talking about being invaded by a humane democracy like the US

Invaded by Humane Democracy like US that uses Agent Orange on Civilians ......Sounds like Oxymoron

The competition between Bharat and Cheen is mainly over influence and status. It will happen mostly in peace time where money and resources rule. They have more resources that is the bottom line there.

Bharat has not done any thing to gain infulence other done use Soft Power , So did China but China does that x times more

Japan has been printing for decades now. So has the US. Until you go into hyperinflation you can safely print as much as you want. For nearly every other country on earth outside Japan and the US, printing money and thereby incurring insane amount debt to oneself was not possible simply because your currency will inflate to worthless levels. The fact that Cheen is doing that without plunging into hyperinflation is indicative of an US/Japan style printing press and that to me is a fvcking bad game changer.

Japan is a basket case of what should not be done ....The only reason it survived is because Fed saved it.

Neither Cheeen nor US will survive Printing Press for long , We would be staying in Voodo magic land if that happens .....All they are doing building up debt is putting themself more and more in sink hole

Their day of reckoning could come soon or it might not. Just like the US and Japan. Hoping they would simply collapse is not a strategy.

It is not a strategy but a fact , Cycle of Boom and Bust is a Normal thing in a Normal Economy ......Due to Unconventional Monitory policy they are delaying the obvious

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 21 Jul 2017 14:29

SSridhar wrote:Probe the Indian resolve
Now, Pakistan has become a Chinese province (or 'protectorate' according to how one sees it). The CPEC is the template for and the most critical component of OBOR, for the success of both land and sea corridors. Xi has staked personally on this. China wants Gwadar badly and the hinterland route to it from Kashgar. He is getting doubts whether India would let that happen, through its possible covert (sabotage) & overt (war) actions as India has firmly opposed this. He wants to be ready to intervene if India attacks G&B. He is preparing the ground and would use this stand-off to gain concessions from Pakistan citing possible risks that China could not allow. Pakistan may even enter into a special agreement to give China a status similar to what India enjoys with Bhutan.

Very perceptive...this may well be the true motive behind the Chinese moves on Doka La.

Deans · Post by **Deans** » 21 Jul 2017 14:34

Iyersan wrote:China editorial slams 'lying' Sushma on Doklam standoff, threatens military escalation
http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/indi ... 07437.html

Bloody nation of traders, manipulators and farts

Bloody India today too, for `cut-pasting' the crap dished out by the Chinese govt.
Can we guys respond to this article ? I've done so.

brvarsh · Post by **brvarsh** » 21 Jul 2017 14:39

Arjun wrote:
SSridhar wrote:Probe the Indian resolve
Now, Pakistan has become a Chinese province (or 'protectorate' according to how one sees it). The CPEC is the template for and the most critical component of OBOR, for the success of both land and sea corridors. Xi has staked personally on this. China wants Gwadar badly and the hinterland route to it from Kashgar. He is getting doubts whether India would let that happen, through its possible covert (sabotage) & overt (war) actions as India has firmly opposed this. He wants to be ready to intervene if India attacks G&B. He is preparing the ground and would use this stand-off to gain concessions from Pakistan citing possible risks that China could not allow. Pakistan may even enter into a special agreement to give China a status similar to what India enjoys with Bhutan.
Very perceptive...this may well be the true motive behind the Chinese moves on Doka La.

But don't we know there are still some proud Pakistanis who would die but not accept any country's rule over them? If some in Pakistan have sold their country and their zameer to China then India should remind the others if they don't want to be part of this sell off then they should take their part and spin off. They have all our moral support!

g.sarkar · Post by **g.sarkar** » 21 Jul 2017 14:45

Iyersan wrote:
nam wrote: Link not functioning

Try this:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/as ... 4b010e91eb
Gautam

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 21 Jul 2017 14:52

pankajs wrote:India's response at Doka la could be a measure of the risks such a move will involve. If India shows its commitment to defend what it considers its *strategic interests* that would be a signal of what to plan for if they indeed want to move on GB.

Absolutely.

The most direct message that India is sending which not many people see or appreciate is that if India can go to the extent of defending its as well as its friend's strategic interests on the friend's territory, then India is determined to do so over its own territory as well even if it is under enemy occupation, when its strategic interests are threatened through that route.

vinod · Post by **vinod** » 21 Jul 2017 14:58

Another strategic objective:
A road connectivity from Mongolia to India via Xinjiang, through Tibet to Sikkim.

This will reduce the dependency of the land-locked Mongolio on China for access to sea. More revenue for the Xinjiang and Tibet and even Bangladesh as well.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 21 Jul 2017 15:02

Chinese don't have the *flexibility* of printing like US or Japan did.

US Dollar is a reserve currency which is mostly soaked up abroad. One just has to look at the Central banks Reserves from around the world, including China, Japan, SoKO and India to understand this *unique* phenomena. China does not have that *flexibility* because .. ok one just has to look at the breakup of the Chinese dollar reserves to understand why. Before folks say this let me say it. Just being part of SDR does not cut it.

Japan went through this phase when the world was booming and went on to grow blockbusters for the next 20 years thus absorbing all the excess capacity built up in Japan. Global trade was surging ahead thus providing them a *sort of* cushion. China does not have that luxury. Fact is Global trade is stagnating if not shrinking and there is not big market left for China to export its surplus but India. The tiny countries that are getting on the OBOR bandwagon will not be able to pay back.

Even with US and Japan, the printing can go on only so long. Printing/Debt is deflationary and all it has done is slow down the these economies further and further. Just look at Japanese economy's trajectory for the past 20-30 years. It is the best illustration of the printing game.

Added later: BTW when I write that US is *unique* the easiest way to verify my claim is to compare the Chinese *forex* reserves with the US *forex* reserves and then compare the reserve composition.

Inder Sharma · Post by **Inder Sharma** » 21 Jul 2017 15:04

I believe that the single child China is overestimating its ability to absorb the cost of war.

When bodybags of PLA men begin to arrive; per soldier there would 4 distraught grandparents and two devastated parents who would be left without progeny.

In such a scenario, Xi may have to worry more about Chinese mothers. So if we can run a successful psyops in the mind of Chinese mothers about the threat to her son, we have deterred Xi.

Our stance at the very least should be to deliver unacceptable number of bodybags to the PLA (by conventional means) if they play wonky.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 21 Jul 2017 15:06

If I were in Indian policy making circle I wouldn't count China *one child policy* in my planning. I would plan for *just* fighting and defeating the Chinese. I wouldn't care if they were single child of their parent or mercenaries.

Inder Sharma · Post by **Inder Sharma** » 21 Jul 2017 15:11

Agreed, Pankaj. But US Army exited from Vietnam because DIOK babyboomers were unwilling to accept bodybags while Vietnam was. IMHO

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 21 Jul 2017 15:12

^
What was saying is that we should focus on our work and that is IMHO fighting and winning. What happens in China is their problem unless we are in a position to *engineer* things.

We have such capacity to *engineer* stuff in Bakistan especially when a third party [Say the godless Chinese] is involved. In Bakis case it would count as a tool in our war fighting toolkit.

zoverian · Post by **zoverian** » 21 Jul 2017 15:30

Doval is visiting to China...I guess some solution or understanding may arrive. War or even skirmish is not going to happen..

g.sarkar · Post by **g.sarkar** » 21 Jul 2017 15:35

http://indianexpress.com/article/india/ ... uly-27-28/
Ajit Doval to visit China for BRICS NSA’s meet on July 27-28
The meeting will be hosted by Doval's counterpart Yang Jiechi. On the Doklam issue, MEA spokesperson Gopal Baglay said India is hoping to find a peaceful solution to resolve all the problems.
Amid the ongoing standoff between India and China over the Doklam issue, National Ajit Doval will travel to Beijing to attend the BRICS NSA’s meeting scheduled for later this month.
Briefing the media over the security situation at the border, MEA spokesperson Gopal Baglay confirmed that Doval will be visiting the country on July 27-28. The meeting will be hosted by Doval’s counterpart Yang Jiechi.
On the Doklam issue, Baglay said India is hoping to find a peaceful solution to resolve all the problems. “Diplomatic channels and diplomatic communications have never been ceased, they have never broken,” he told reporters.
.....

Gautam

Iyersan · Post by **Iyersan** » 21 Jul 2017 15:54

BEIJING, July 21 (Xinhua) -- Behind the ongoing border standoff caused by Indian troops' trespass into Chinese territory, is an ill-conceived notion of dragon-elephant rivalry that has grown into a major global topic.

Where does the confrontational idea come from?

The China-India comparison emerged as early as in the 2000s, and was elaborated by scholars and media from the United States and Britain.

The book "The Dragon and the Elephant: China, India and the New World Order", written by Sunday Times journalist David Smith, formally presented the idea to the world. The Financial Times even has a special page for "dragon-elephant rivalry."

It is fair to say that the concept of China and India being nemeses to each other was cooked by the West, a smart move, pitting the two biggest future competitors of the West against each other.

So who stands to win from a possible India-China war?

At least no one in Asia. Obviously the two would pay a heavy price first of all. Even Japan, the U.S. ally who relies heavily on the Chinese market, would suffer an economic blow, which could turn into a domestic crisis.

Most economies, including those in the West, will find themselves negatively affected by an India-China war in a globalized and intertwined world today.

The only beneficiaries, sadly, will be opportunists, short-sighted nationalist politicians who don't really have the people's interests in heart. And the dream of an Asian century would become a puff of wind.

What is the true nature of the China-India relations?

Being the world's oldest civilizations with a time-honored history and brilliant culture, China and India have long engaged in exchanges and mutual learning.

As the two countries are the world's biggest potential markets, each with over a billion people, they could develop complementary industries and cooperate in protecting common security.

Working together, China and India could build something unprecedentedly wonderful for not just themselves, but the whole region and the world.

The recent border issue between the two countries shows a lack of strategic trust on the Indian side. What is holding India back is not China, but common problems facing developing countries like corruption, a lack of quality education, healthcare and reforms.

Both China and India need to enhance communication and nurture trust between them, first by recognizing that the two are not born rivals and that harboring ill will against each other is dangerous.

India must understand that China wishes what's good for the Indian people and would love to see a strong India standing shoulder by shoulder with China.

Meanwhile, just like China, India must remain sober and guard against wrong judgement and irrational perceptions.

Instead of being rivals, India and China have much more common ground, common interests and common aspirations. Both as developing countries, the two need to work together on important issues like fighting climate change, protectionism and the financial privileges of Washington.

Hopefully, wisdom will guide the two countries to common prosperity. There is more than enough room for them to co-exist and thrive in Asia and in the world.

Iyersan · Post by **Iyersan** » 21 Jul 2017 15:55

Bloody farts. New Psyops

Iyersan · Post by **Iyersan** » 21 Jul 2017 15:59

Iyersan wrote: http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2017- ... 462094.htm
BEIJING, July 21 (Xinhua) -- Behind the ongoing border standoff caused by Indian troops' trespass into Chinese territory, is an ill-conceived notion of dragon-elephant rivalry that has grown into a major global topic.

Where does the confrontational idea come from?

The China-India comparison emerged as early as in the 2000s, and was elaborated by scholars and media from the United States and Britain.

The book "The Dragon and the Elephant: China, India and the New World Order", written by Sunday Times journalist David Smith, formally presented the idea to the world. The Financial Times even has a special page for "dragon-elephant rivalry."

It is fair to say that the concept of China and India being nemeses to each other was cooked by the West, a smart move, pitting the two biggest future competitors of the West against each other.

So who stands to win from a possible India-China war?

At least no one in Asia. Obviously the two would pay a heavy price first of all. Even Japan, the U.S. ally who relies heavily on the Chinese market, would suffer an economic blow, which could turn into a domestic crisis.

Most economies, including those in the West, will find themselves negatively affected by an India-China war in a globalized and intertwined world today.

The only beneficiaries, sadly, will be opportunists, short-sighted nationalist politicians who don't really have the people's interests in heart. And the dream of an Asian century would become a puff of wind.

What is the true nature of the China-India relations?

Being the world's oldest civilizations with a time-honored history and brilliant culture, China and India have long engaged in exchanges and mutual learning.

As the two countries are the world's biggest potential markets, each with over a billion people, they could develop complementary industries and cooperate in protecting common security.

Working together, China and India could build something unprecedentedly wonderful for not just themselves, but the whole region and the world.

The recent border issue between the two countries shows a lack of strategic trust on the Indian side. What is holding India back is not China, but common problems facing developing countries like corruption, a lack of quality education, healthcare and reforms.

Both China and India need to enhance communication and nurture trust between them, first by recognizing that the two are not born rivals and that harboring ill will against each other is dangerous.

India must understand that China wishes what's good for the Indian people and would love to see a strong India standing shoulder by shoulder with China.

Meanwhile, just like China, India must remain sober and guard against wrong judgement and irrational perceptions.

Instead of being rivals, India and China have much more common ground, common interests and common aspirations. Both as developing countries, the two need to work together on important issues like fighting climate change, protectionism and the financial privileges of Washington.

Hopefully, wisdom will guide the two countries to common prosperity. There is more than enough room for them to co-exist and thrive in Asia and in the world.

Lekhraj · Post by **Lekhraj** » 21 Jul 2017 16:11

Philip wrote:Chinese troops squatting in POK would be tantamount to a declaration of war.We have to be prepared for that eventuality,sooner rather than later ,and must take decisive measures now to prevent that from happening. If it means a conflict with Pak to stalemate that happening,so be it. in such a limited conflict,as Pak has no logistical stamina for a long fight,Gwadar must get the "3rd degree" treatment as well as all Paki-Chinese regions of opportunity,destroying elements of the Karakorum Highway ,and other key points of its proposed road/rail corridor through Pak.Now that the US appears to be on the side of the Baluchis,a full-court-press must be made to accelerate that happy event,the liberation of Baluchistan.

+ 108.

Today we talk about 2.5 wars. Why not go on the offensive on Pak + ".5" and reduce them to ".1"

Go after pro pak elements in Kashmir
Escalate at the international border and LOC to take over dominating hights. Paki's defences are very thin as we saw during surgical strike.

The time is now till Cheen is still dwelling upon millitary options and start something nasty on the eastern border.

nam · Post by **nam** » 21 Jul 2017 16:13

So India's self appointed pal, China gives nuke to Pakistan.... and it is conspiracy by colonials.

IndraD · Post by **IndraD** » 21 Jul 2017 16:27

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/sikk ... 07528.html
An article appearing in the Global Times - Considered as the mouthpiece of the Communist party of China - has appealed to India that the ongoing border tension between India and China should not impact the Regional Comprehensive Economic Partnership (RCEP) meet in Hyderabad.
The Global Times article said, the India-China border standoff should not be allowed to threaten a mega economic deal Asia- Pacific nations are trying to negotiate at a meeting in Hyderabad.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 21 Jul 2017 16:31

he he ... They want a FTA of some short with India.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 21 Jul 2017 16:35

Sikkim standoff should not threaten RCEP deal: Chinese media - PTI

The India-China border standoff should not be allowed to threaten a mega economic deal Asia- Pacific nations are trying to negotiate at a meeting in Hyderabad, an article in an official Chinese daily said today.

The comment was made by The Global Times, the mouthpiece of the Communist Party media group, which generally reflects the views of the ruling party. In recent days, the tabloid has been at the forefront of verbal allegations against India amid the tension between the two countries in the Sikkim sector.

Sixteen countries, accounting for about 27 per cent of global trade, are meeting in Hyderabad to discuss the Regional Comprehensive Economic Partnership (RCEP) that is aimed at liberalising trade and investment in the Asia-Pacific region.

The technical level talks for the RCEP began on July 18.

On July 24, the negotiations will formally start.

The meeting is happening under the shadow of the standoff between India and China - the two largest economies taking part in the talks. The standoff began over the construction of a road by China in Doklam area and India fears the road could be used to cut New Delhi's links with its northeastern states.

India has said it is ready for talks with China to end the tension but both sides should first withdraw their armies from the disputed area. "We are saying that the matter can be resolved through talks, but both sides have to first take back their armies," External Affairs Minister Sushma Swaraj has said.

"China and India are two prominent members of the group, but they face the task of preventing an escalation of their border tensions from becoming an obstacle to reaching trade agreements at the negotiating table," the article said.

"China hopes that India can strive to control its actions, ensuring that the escalation of the border tensions does not endanger the atmosphere of cooperation for the RCEP," it said.

"If India encourages the border tensions to thwart the free trade negotiations, China will fight back and spare no effort to safeguard its territorial sovereignty, which cannot be traded in any case," it said. {Since China usually conducts its foreign policy through its state-controlled media and think-tanks, we have to assume that this comes from their government. As usual, the Chinese do not see the absurdity of what they say ! Here is the usual 'frothing' Global Times saying that if India thwarts trade negotiations, then China will 'rake up' sovereignty ! Absurdly linking the two. Then it contradicts itself. If 'sovereignty cannot be traded at any cost', then why link it up with trade negotiations? These threats will work with Philippines, but not with India. That being said, China is trying to use the stand-off to get 'concessions' in the RCEP negotiations. This might have been another reason for the Doka La crisis, in the long list of such reasons.}

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 21 Jul 2017 16:51

India should first and foremost start imposing heavy punitive tarriffs on Chinese goods into India. As long as $60Bn trade imbalance exists, all this is high farce. That's 3 MMRCA deals @100 aircraft each, per year.

Marten · Post by **Marten** » 21 Jul 2017 16:58

Karan M wrote:India should first and foremost start imposing heavy punitive tarriffs on Chinese goods into India. As long as $60Bn trade imbalance exists, all this is high farce. That's 3 MMRCA deals @100 aircraft each, per year.

We could start with raids on the Sadarbazar merchants community -- and the traders from Gujarat and Rajasthan who conduct most of the import.

All of this warmaking ability and warmongering is useless because ultimately we are both mercantalist nations that will yield only if assured our business interests are not harmed. Make no mistake, folks who are importing even known harmful plastic products must be treated like traitors. First and foremost, let's put our house in order immediately, while the crew mend the fences.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 21 Jul 2017 17:41

Karan M wrote:India should first and foremost start imposing heavy punitive tarriffs on Chinese goods into India. As long as $60Bn trade imbalance exists, all this is high farce. That's 3 MMRCA deals @100 aircraft each, per year.

I think that is not possible within WTO framework and China might also retaliate in kind