China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 19 Jul 2017 19:45

This report seems to imply that it using a new seeker, different from their other BVRAAM/PL-12 which borrows the seeker and data-link from the R-77.

DavidD · Post by **DavidD** » 20 Jul 2017 09:09

Some news on the PLA orbat reform (from Forbin on SDF), not sexy topic but quite important operationally.

The red line outlines disbanded corps:

The remaining corps are undergoing brigadization, including the formation of combined arms brigades as following:

4 x combined arms battalion (合成营)
- each battalion (31 IFV + 40 MBT/Assault vehicle + 6 x 120mm mortar): 3 x IFV (装步连) company, 2 x tank (坦克连) company (only for 2 battalion) or assault vehicle (突击车连) company, 1 x 6x120mm mortar (炮兵连) company.

1 x artillery battalion (火炮营)
- comprising 4 x 9 gun (炮兵连) company or 2x9 gun (炮兵连)+ 2x 9 MRL company (火箭炮连), 1 x 4 ATGM (反坦克连) company

1 x air defence battalion (防空营)
- comprising 2 x 9 AAA (高炮连) company, 2 x 9 SAM (防空导单) company

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 20 Jul 2017 10:31

DavidD wrote:Some news on the PLA orbat reform (from Forbin on SDF), not sexy topic but quite important operationally.

...

Is their any info on UAV orbat on the Chinese side?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 23 Jul 2017 20:33

A list of major Chinese military installations, radar sites and logistics hubs near the border with India with coordinates. Will provide kmz file later
https://youtu.be/KtCb2P_KOgA

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 23 Jul 2017 20:56

^^^ Tweet it sir.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 23 Jul 2017 21:11

^^Done

AdityaM · Post by **AdityaM** » 26 Jul 2017 00:37

From twitter:

https://twitter.com/hdevreij/status/889842784584294400

Dutch civilian airline pilot witnessed a presumed Chinese (ABM?) missile launch over the Himalayas. Pics copyright: Christiaan van Heijst

https://twitter.com/defconwsalerts/stat ... 2504283136
Transporter vehicles carrying equipment for the firing of a ballistic missile were seen arriving in Kusong, North Pyongan Province

More info and pics from the pilot
https://jpcvanheijst.com/blogs/2017/07/ ... over-china

http://liuqiankktt.blog.163.com/blog/st ... 495336818/

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 26 Jul 2017 01:24

What the heck are these that require boring through hills to form a line that stretches all along the TsangPo river?
From 29°17'04.7"N 91°09'05.3"E to 29°17'21.4"N 91°02'58.9"E

Also looks like a massive subterranean whatever - Two tunnel entrances at Shannan -29°12'28.0"N 91°44'43.7"E

Another slightly to the north, on the other side of the hill - Two entrances again (at different levels?) 29°14'31.7"N 91°44'13.6"E

Note the racetrack type whitish road structure close to both tunnels? What are those? And are those orange trucks construction trucks ?

And what are these at 29°13'01.2"N 91°42'08.4"E ? Also at 29°12'34.6"N 91°43'09.1"E

Holy whatever - Look at the trucks in this compound right next to the hill into which those tunnels lead to - 29°11'56.8"N 91°45'28.0"E
Power Substation (I think. Looks that way with all the transmission lines leading from/to it) - 29°15'43.3"N 91°52'57.4"E There is a small track leading E from the SE corner to some 'thing'. Can anyone ID what that is? 4 holes in the ground surrounded by 4 mounds?

Possible SAM locations? North side of the Tsangpo of Shannan - Mountainside tracks leading up to hilltop with tunnels - 29°18'53.8"N 91°48'06.1"E
Possible massive barracks complex - 29°16'49.6"N 91°53'13.7"E There are 5 such complexes on the north bank in a line.

Bing maps appears to have older images than google. That last structure isn't present in bing. Same with all those trucks at that compound in Shannan. Guess Shannan, sitting at that tri-junction with the S202 that leads to border/Bum La pass will be figure quite extensively in our target list. Electricity being a prime target. And dams. Wrecking the Lhasa river might starve the city but flood everything downstream pretty quickly.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 26 Jul 2017 08:09

Prasad wrote:Also looks like a massive subterranean whatever - Two tunnel entrances at Shannan -29°12'28.0"N 91°44'43.7"E

These look like Hydel tunnel exits

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 26 Jul 2017 08:20

Hydro? How sir? They're on the edge of the city.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 26 Jul 2017 08:25

Prasad wrote:Hydro? How sir? They're on the edge of the city.

Look at the river North of that and the fact that both tunnels exit into a gorge.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 26 Jul 2017 08:41

Prasad wrote:
Holy whatever - Look at the trucks in this compound right next to the hill into which those tunnels lead to - 29°11'56.8"N 91°45'28.0"E.

This is a military site featured in my Tawang Video
https://youtu.be/azQlfT9Iv4s?t=258

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 26 Jul 2017 08:47

I must compliment you for taking the trouble and showing interest. It is important that more people do that and find what I have missed or new stuff.

Prasad wrote: Possible SAM locations? North side of the Tsangpo of Shannan - Mountainside tracks leading up to hilltop with tunnels - 29°18'53.8"N 91°48'06.1"E

In general I have found that the Chinese invariably have excellent tarred roads leading to military sites. These are dirt tracks and this looks more like a mine to me

Prasad wrote: Possible massive barracks complex - 29°16'49.6"N 91°53'13.7"E There are 5 such complexes on the north bank in a line.

These are solar panels. Note - there are no "roads" to service the barracks.

In general - military sites show
1. Excellent access roads
2. Walled compound with single protected gate
3. Barracks tend to be about 30 or more meters long and 10 or more meters wide
4. Parked military trucks is a clincher
5. Incorporate open areas for parking/assembly

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 26 Jul 2017 08:59

ABM is tough over a vast area like indo-china, but this could be a ASAT weapon. we have 8 sats flying polar orbits over the region and they have already demonstrated kinetic hits on their own sats. he who blinds the enemy from space has a advantage but this can only be done as the 1st move of a open war, not as a limited thing.

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 26 Jul 2017 12:14

shiv wrote:
Prasad wrote:Hydro? How sir? They're on the edge of the city.
Look at the river North of that and the fact that both tunnels exit into a gorge.

Cant be sir. There is a road leading to a fork and then to the two tunnels. There is a gate and some buildings too. Def not hydel. Could be some depot. Weapons, ammo, fuel. There is a fuel depot in the open on the road between the two tunnels.
South tunnel

North Tunnel - See the dirt track that leads to the main road?

Both & Fuel depot - Positions relative to each other and the Shannan town itself to the right.

shiv wrote:
Prasad wrote:
Holy whatever - Look at the trucks in this compound right next to the hill into which those tunnels lead to - 29°11'56.8"N 91°45'28.0"E.
This is a military site featured in my Tawang Video
https://youtu.be/azQlfT9Iv4s?t=258

Yes sir. I remember seeing it. Bing maps pictures do not show such a massive presence. Its pretty deserted in its sat picture. I wonder what the dates on bing & google are for the pictures.

shiv wrote:I must compliment you for taking the trouble and showing interest. It is important that more people do that and find what I have missed or new stuff.

Lawl. My wife would lou to hear that somebody else is as nuts

Prasad wrote: Possible SAM locations? North side of the Tsangpo of Shannan - Mountainside tracks leading up to hilltop with tunnels - 29°18'53.8"N 91°48'06.1"E
In general I have found that the Chinese invariably have excellent tarred roads leading to military sites. These are dirt tracks and this looks more like a mine to me

These seem to be nearer to the top of that ridge. I thought tracked/wheeled short range SAM might be used there. Hide when not in use and then quickly dart out to position themselves to provide cover when things get hot. Deejay or somebody else who knows SRSAMS tactics might be able to tell if i'm dead wrong here

This is particularly interesting since I was looking for SAM sites in the first place. There is an HQ-9 system deployed that is visible next to the Lhasa airport a bit to the west of this place. That is a medium/long range SAM. I suppose the shorter ranged ones might be to the south of the town but that is a narrow valley with no east-west spread. Will check.

Prasad wrote: Possible massive barracks complex - 29°16'49.6"N 91°53'13.7"E There are 5 such complexes on the north bank in a line.
These are solar panels. Note - there are no "roads" to service the barracks.

In general - military sites show
1. Excellent access roads
2. Walled compound with single protected gate
3. Barracks tend to be about 30 or more meters long and 10 or more meters wide
4. Parked military trucks is a clincher
5. Incorporate open areas for parking/assembly

Yeah.

Supposed to be elec engg. Explains the power lines and substation in the south. Nice ripe target for plinking, panels and substation both. Wonder what alternate electricity source they have.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 26 Jul 2017 14:38

Prasad wrote: Cant be sir. There is a road leading to a fork and then to the two tunnels. There is a gate and some buildings too. Def not hydel. Could be some depot. Weapons, ammo, fuel. There is a fuel depot in the open on the road between the two tunnels.
South tunnel

Good catch. I got the perspective better by turning the image 180 deg and tilting. Those tunnel entrances are actually opening into a mountainside. This is definitely a military site

DrRatnadip · Post by **DrRatnadip** » 27 Jul 2017 15:27

http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1058138.shtml

Missile destroyer Hefei opens live fire drill in Baltic Sea

Following the order of Tian Zhong, vice admiral of the People's Liberation Army (PLA) Navy, the missile destroyer Hefei departed from the naval port of Baltiysk, marking the beginning of the Russian-Chinese "Joint Sea 2017" naval drills.

During an opening ceremony, senior naval officers from China and Russia reiterated that the military exercises are not aimed at any third party and have nothing to do with the regional situation.

The Global Times reporter boarded Hefei and witnessed the joint air defense drill and live gun-firing practice in the first phase of the joint drills that runs from July 21 to 28 in the Baltic Sea.
.
.
Hefei was enlisted in December 2015 and accomplished all needed exercises in March 2016, in half the normal time frame. Within less than five months, the advanced destroyer, taking the role of command ship, joined a series of far-sea trainings within Chinese navy's South China Sea Fleet and entered the Indian Ocean and the Pacific Ocean.

Zhang Huiyao, a naval officer, told the Global Times that the Hefei, equipped with complex radar and air defense system and strong combat ability, is capable of detecting long-distance targets.

With the rapid development of China's navy and the growing demand to protect the country's legitimate interests overseas, China's naval vessels are entering the blue seas.

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 27 Jul 2017 17:57

A surprisingly detailed article by NYT on current standoff. Interesting to read how the other nations are viewing the situation. Be warned of slight dhoti shivering quote by an Indian "expert" though.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/26/worl ... hutan.html

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 27 Jul 2017 19:27

The number of Chinese mil targets keeps on increasing.India will have to dramatically ramp up production of BMos and other tactical missiles in the thousands,to deal with Pak as well. BMos missiles should be coming off the belts at the rate of at least 1/day per plant.The pace at which OPGMs get exhausted in a spat is amazing.The US found that out during GW1,when Tomahawk production had to be dramatically increased.Until our Nirbhay LRCM is perfected and in large-scale production,we may have to augment the forces with alternatives,which obviously can come from Russia (Klub/kalibir,etc.,etc.)

Meanwhile,the Dragon beefs up its sub=detection capabilities:
https://sputniknews.com/asia/2017072610 ... n-testing/
Xcpt:

Chinese Navy Expands Submarine Detection Testing in the South China Sea
© REUTERS/ U.S. Navy/Handout
Asia & Pacific
22:01 26.07.2017

The Chinese navy will conduct a massive experiment with underwater drones equipped with "real-time data transmission technology," in hopes of building up Beijing’s capacity to detect hostile submarines in the South China Sea.

Beijing wants to accelerate the development of underwater monitoring technology, the South China Morning Post report said, in response to US President Donald Trump’s sanctioning the US Navy to conduct more freedom-of-navigation operations.

Twelve undersea "gliders" positioned in undisclosed locations in the South China Sea will transmit data back to control centers, SCMP noted. The unmanned sea drones will cruise around for a month to gather data on water temperature, salinity, cleanliness, oxygen levels and sea current velocity, a Chinese Academy of Sciences official told the Post.

If the tests achieve the expected results it will "definitely" be a "breakthrough,' said Yin Jingwei, a dean at Harbin Engineering University. “Real-time data transmission” has proven “extremely difficult for underwater gliders,” Yin added.

Beijing has successfully installed military assets and new capabilities throughout the disputed South China Sea in recent years as it aims at full-on hegemony in the strategic body of water. "New missile shelters, radio/communications facilities, and other infrastructure are going in on the Fiery Cross, Mischief and Subi Reefs," in the Spratly archipelago, according to the Center for Strategic and International Studies’ Asia Maritime Transparency Initiative.

chola · Post by **chola** » 27 Jul 2017 19:44

DrRatnadip wrote:http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1058138.shtml

Missile destroyer Hefei opens live fire drill in Baltic Sea

Following the order of Tian Zhong, vice admiral of the People's Liberation Army (PLA) Navy, the missile destroyer Hefei departed from the naval port of Baltiysk, marking the beginning of the Russian-Chinese "Joint Sea 2017" naval drills.

During an opening ceremony, senior naval officers from China and Russia reiterated that the military exercises are not aimed at any third party and have nothing to do with the regional situation.

The Global Times reporter boarded Hefei and witnessed the joint air defense drill and live gun-firing practice in the first phase of the joint drills that runs from July 21 to 28 in the Baltic Sea.
.
.
Hefei was enlisted in December 2015 and accomplished all needed exercises in March 2016, in half the normal time frame. Within less than five months, the advanced destroyer, taking the role of command ship, joined a series of far-sea trainings within Chinese navy's South China Sea Fleet and entered the Indian Ocean and the Pacific Ocean.

Zhang Huiyao, a naval officer, told the Global Times that the Hefei, equipped with complex radar and air defense system and strong combat ability, is capable of detecting long-distance targets.

With the rapid development of China's navy and the growing demand to protect the country's legitimate interests overseas, China's naval vessels are entering the blue seas.

Originally, the Type 052D leading the Baltics flotilla was supposed to be Pennant 173 Changsha not the Hefei (174.) A veteran China watcher thinks the Changsha might have broken down in the Indian Ocean somewhere.

I hope the IN can locate it and put it under the surveillance of our warships.

We can sink or board it if hostilities broke out. It is their most powerful ship after the new Type 055. It would be a monumental prize if we could take it.

DavidD · Post by **DavidD** » 27 Jul 2017 21:12

The latest rumor is that the Changsha's early return is related to some internal disciplinary investigations. All rumors though at this point, but if it indeed broke down it was like 3 weeks ago, I'm sure it's been towed back to China by now.

chola · Post by **chola** » 27 Jul 2017 23:01

DavidD wrote:The latest rumor is that the Changsha's early return is related to some internal disciplinary investigations. All rumors though at this point, but if it indeed broke down it was like 3 weeks ago, I'm sure it's been towed back to China by now.

It would take more than three weeks for a tug (or tugs) to 1) get out there and then 2) tow a 8K ton warship back.

At best, it and those tugging it might still be in transit somewhere in the ocean.

I think you are just trying throw the wolfpack off the trail, chinaman.

DavidD · Post by **DavidD** » 27 Jul 2017 23:31

chola wrote:
DavidD wrote:The latest rumor is that the Changsha's early return is related to some internal disciplinary investigations. All rumors though at this point, but if it indeed broke down it was like 3 weeks ago, I'm sure it's been towed back to China by now.
It would take more than three weeks for a tug (or tugs) to 1) get out there and then 2) tow a 8K ton warship back.

At best, it and those tugging it might still be in transit somewhere in the ocean.

I think you are just trying throw the wolfpack off the trail, chinaman.

Not my analysis, it's Henri K's. Is he the "veteran China watcher" you referred to? I'd think it wouldn't take 3 weeks for a tug to get out there, but I guess it depends on where in in the IOR. A 94K ton LNG can be towed at 9 knots, I'd assume an 8K ton warship can be towed a bit faster than that.

http://www.eastpendulum.com/histoire-de ... 3-changsha

chola · Post by **chola** » 28 Jul 2017 16:33

Looks like Cheen is importing Antonov's people not just equipment and designs.

http://micetimes.asia/antonov-leaked-to ... er-needed/

In the County, Pucan (Weinan, Shaanxi province) on an area of 124 square kilometers, completed construction of a Modern open production area Loango, where they will live and work for two thousand employees of the Ukrainian KB Antonov with family members.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 28 Jul 2017 21:50

Nothing new. And incredibly smart of them. People are current and future technology and ecosystem. We import aircrafts/license manufacturing. In this aspect, China is better than us.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 29 Jul 2017 05:35

Prasad wrote:What the heck are these that require boring through hills to form a line that stretches all along the TsangPo river?
From 29°17'04.7"N 91°09'05.3"E to 29°17'21.4"N 91°02'58.9"E

Extension of the Tibet railways.
The chinese want to take this all the way into Nepal from Lhasa
You will see tunnels, poles for bridges and landscaping done in preparation for laying the track

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 29 Jul 2017 05:43

Prasad wrote:Also looks like a massive subterranean whatever - Two tunnel entrances at Shannan -29°12'28.0"N 91°44'43.7"E

Very very suspicious. Possible underground bunker or weapons storage site.
Might even store missiles. Possible Military location

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 29 Jul 2017 05:50

AdityaM wrote:From twitter:

https://twitter.com/hdevreij/status/889842784584294400

Dutch civilian airline pilot witnessed a presumed Chinese (ABM?) missile launch over the Himalayas. Pics copyright: Christiaan van Heijst

https://twitter.com/defconwsalerts/stat ... 2504283136
Transporter vehicles carrying equipment for the firing of a ballistic missile were seen arriving in Kusong, North Pyongan Province

More info and pics from the pilot
https://jpcvanheijst.com/blogs/2017/07/ ... over-china

http://liuqiankktt.blog.163.com/blog/st ... 495336818/

Kusong is right at the China-North Korea border, and hosts a few Anti-Aricraft SAM Units in the area.
Very possible that this is a high altitude SAM test or an ABM test.
Couple this with live fire exercises next to NoKo-SoKo border by the PLAN

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 29 Jul 2017 05:55

Prasad wrote: Possible SAM locations? North side of the Tsangpo of Shannan - Mountainside tracks leading up to hilltop with tunnels - 29°18'53.8"N 91°48'06.1"E

Possible mining sites. They are probably drilling and taking samples all over the mountain through those dirt tracks and sending them for analysis.
They have probably hit something precious, because a whole town has cropped up in the area !

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 29 Jul 2017 05:58

Prasad wrote:And what are these at 29°13'01.2"N 91°42'08.4"E ? Also at 29°12'34.6"N 91°43'09.1"E

Possible water pipes for drilling.
Possible mining area

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 29 Jul 2017 06:00

Shiv ji
Excellent video that, as always

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 29 Jul 2017 06:19

Thanks Gagan

AdityaM · Post by **AdityaM** » 29 Jul 2017 08:10

Gagan wrote:
AdityaM wrote:From twitter:

https://twitter.com/hdevreij/status/889842784584294400

Dutch civilian airline pilot witnessed a presumed Chinese (ABM?) missile launch over the Himalayas. Pics copyright: Christiaan van Heijst

https://twitter.com/defconwsalerts/stat ... 2504283136
Transporter vehicles carrying equipment for the firing of a ballistic missile were seen arriving in Kusong, North Pyongan Province

More info and pics from the pilot
https://jpcvanheijst.com/blogs/2017/07/ ... over-china

http://liuqiankktt.blog.163.com/blog/st ... 495336818/
Kusong is right at the China-North Korea border, and hosts a few Anti-Aricraft SAM Units in the area.
Very possible that this is a high altitude SAM test or an ABM test.
Couple this with live fire exercises next to NoKo-SoKo border by the PLAN

The missile test happened close to Himalayas as reported.
Kusong Tweet may have been unrelated which I mistakenly clubbed here

DavidD · Post by **DavidD** » 29 Jul 2017 09:45

It wasn't that close to the Himalayas:

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 29 Jul 2017 18:04

I can't understand why a missile test would be more scary if it happens closer to one's borders. I means missiles are the classic example of "Jo Lahore mein g@ndu woh Peshawar mein bhi g@ndu" If it can do its business 5000 km north it can do the same 5000 km south. That is why I an unimpressed by Chinese "moving missiles to our borders". This is made to sound like foreplay in the media "..and she slowly slipped off her skirt..". Those missiles can come an poke Indians in the butt pretty much wherever they are placed now.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 30 Jul 2017 02:01

DavidD wrote:It wasn't that close to the Himalayas:

The top circle is the Lop Nor test range. The south end (impact area / area of intercept) was the northwest Sichuan province - unihabited, without much roads.

Possibly an ABM test or an MRBM test

Hope there was an IAF AWACs in the air at that time, they would have all the details of this.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 30 Jul 2017 02:03

Which means that in the near future, India needs to deploy large (actually massive) fixed AESA radars facing north and east in the himalayas to keep a close eye on chinese missile and aircraft activity.

DavidD · Post by **DavidD** » 30 Jul 2017 07:06

The 8/1 parade is going on right now if you're interested:

http://tv.cctv.com/live/

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 30 Jul 2017 07:31

Wow! I have never seen so many septic tanks being carted along one road.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 30 Jul 2017 07:36

Wonder why they are testing inside China - don't they do their testing north of Pyongyang?