Small Arms Thread

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 28 Jul 2017 20:15

Kakarat wrote:
Thakur_B wrote:http://i.imgur.com/DYCT2t1.jpg

From the above image it is clear that OFB has gone for a complete redesign on INSAS with aluminium Milled upper and lower parts of receiver. Too bad the army jumped the gun in trashing the effort. This turf war is getting ridiculous.

OFB seems to have floated the RFI for a new 9 mm handgun and new ambidextrous 7.62x39 mm rifle, but Army hasn't started with the procurement process for 9 mm standard issue side arm. Army though was interested in a new sidearm for special forces a few years back. As far as7.62x39 mm rifle is concerned, looks like even AK-103 isn't passing muster.From the RFI it appears that they are looking for something modern like AK-12 with ambidextorous controls.
The guns in the picture looks to be the new 7.62x51 version from its magazine and the person looks like the one from the test firing video. can you please share more details of the photo, when was it taken before or after trials?

Yes, the gun in picture is the 7.62 nato variant. The picture is from sandeep unnithan's report on army procurement.

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 28 Jul 2017 20:17

Can you judge from the picture itself that these are "milled" receivers? Even MCIWS was milled aluminium receiver.

vaibhav.n · Post by **vaibhav.n** » 28 Jul 2017 22:39

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 29 Jul 2017 21:39

The Collapsing cum folding butt seems very sophisticated, is it fabricated by OFB?

nam · Post by **nam** » 31 Jul 2017 19:21

At least in the looks department, it looks TFTA. Hope they bring our a 7.62X39 version.

If need be, OFB can produce quality finish.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 31 Jul 2017 20:02

The R&D guys can make good looking maal.
The production shops is where the shoddy worksmanship happens.
The staff are just not motivated to do anything at all - OFBs are notorious for people slouching around, even commie sloganeering breaks AoA

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 31 Jul 2017 23:11

Firing the new OFB 7.62x51 mm AR

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 01 Aug 2017 00:46

Looks like Sandeep was aiming at fundamentals!!!!

Good grouping is untrained reporter can deliver that 9-10 inch radius(?)

What was the distance?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 01 Aug 2017 01:30

Gagan wrote:The R&D guys can make good looking maal.
The production shops is where the shoddy worksmanship happens.
The staff are just not motivated to do anything at all - OFBs are notorious for people slouching around, even commie sloganeering breaks AoA

After R&D it goes into production phase. And this is R&D from RFI, OFB and not outside house. So hopefully lessons learned from making the INSAS was used.

I think the 7.62mm x 51 is an upgrade of another RFI design.

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 01 Aug 2017 02:51

Nothing can be learned in OFB, too much red tape. Worker unions in OFB are notorious. All employee positions are guaranteed other then that of army personal posted there for a short period.

This may be a good opportunity for ask private industry to step in.

vaibhav.n · Post by **vaibhav.n** » 01 Aug 2017 03:46

Gyan wrote:The Collapsing cum folding butt seems very sophisticated, is it fabricated by OFB?

That stock is from an Israeli company, FAB Defence.

Long way to go as yet.

They need to straighten the trigger and curve the magazine to increase reliability and shorten dimensions.

The action looks overgassed, that can be rectified however and they probably wanted to err on the safer side for the prototypes.

A muzzle break or a third party bird cage style flash hider could also be looked at depending on where the priorities lie.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 01 Aug 2017 05:16

jayasimha wrote:EXPRESSION OF INTEREST: 8.6mm SNIPER RIFLE
http://www.rfi.gov.in/doc/EOI_8.6mm_SNIPER_RIFLE.pdf

This is a 0.338 caliber sniper rifle.

Cartridge: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.338_Lapua_Magnum

One can download the pdf and make an evaluation form based on available rifles.
Can be seen in the wiki page.

Also read this

https://www.wired.com/2011/08/ultimate-sniper-rifle/

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 01 Aug 2017 06:12

ramana wrote:Looks like Sandeep was aiming at fundamentals!!!!

Good grouping is untrained reporter can deliver that 9-10 inch radius(?)

What was the distance?

In the earlier video Unnithan was handling the weapon well - like a person who has has some firearms training

negi · Post by **negi** » 01 Aug 2017 08:51

vaibhav.n wrote:
Gyan wrote:The Collapsing cum folding butt seems very sophisticated, is it fabricated by OFB?
That stock is from an Israeli company, FAB Defence.

Long way to go as yet.

They need to straighten the trigger and curve the magazine to increase reliability and shorten dimensions.

The action looks overgassed, that can be rectified however and they probably wanted to err on the safer side for the prototypes.

A muzzle break or a third party bird cage style flash hider could also be looked at depending on where the priorities lie.

Actually they did the right thing; this is a 7.62mm rifle and what better template to go by than the SLR itself. If you look at the grip and magazine it looks very very close to the SLR.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 01 Aug 2017 15:37

ORSIS T-5000: New Name in Precision Rifles

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 01 Aug 2017 17:38

Why are they still looking at 5.56x45 CQB rifle when they are moving to 7.62x51? Also what replaces the INSAS LMG?

vaibhav.n · Post by **vaibhav.n** » 02 Aug 2017 20:09

negi wrote:Actually they did the right thing; this is a 7.62mm rifle and what better template to go by than the SLR itself. If you look at the grip and magazine it looks very very close to the SLR.

It is an SLR magazine. That is fine for initial testing purposes, but they will have to employ more current techniques.

The SLR is a 50's design. Today you can shape polymer magazines with a constant curve to increase reliability and shorten dimensions. Newer magazines also now come with anti-tilt followers to improve feeding rounds. Polymer magazines also weigh roughly half of steel ones. Also, pistol grips nowadays are more straight to reduce wrist strain.

Bharadwaj · Post by **Bharadwaj** » 02 Aug 2017 20:57

To the untrained eye and ear the ofb rifle has a lot of recoil and noise compared to the firing demos of the scar and galil ace on youtube. It sounds like a mini field artillery gun!. I hope the Army works with Ofb to sort this out and accepts the rifle in the long run. There is no long term alternative to a home grown rifle. In the shorter term we may be better off going with something like the arx200 which appears to offer good accuracy at range along with the stopping power which the army is looking for. It is also likely to be cheaper than the likes of the fn scar.

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 02 Aug 2017 21:07

AKs have a slant barrel. I suppose it can help with recoil. Does it reduce flash and noise ?

pattnayak · Post by **pattnayak** » 05 Aug 2017 22:10

New videos of JVPC. Apologies if the videos had already been posted earlier.

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 06 Aug 2017 09:30

Look at the related video for more info on INSAS 7.62x51

https://youtu.be/tfwbha6RIMc

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 06 Aug 2017 13:07

jamwal wrote:AKs have a slant barrel. I suppose it can help with recoil. Does it reduce flash and noise ?

If you mean the wedge tip it helps to reduce the tendency to recoil upwards which is caused by the barrel being out of line from the shoulder rest - causing recoil to push the barrel up

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 07 Aug 2017 10:06

Looks like ofb is going on a PR offensive here for its small arms.

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 07 Aug 2017 12:41

Very pathetic PR offence. They could have been more sophisticated without any cost. Shows laid back attitude of OFB.

AdityaM · Post by **AdityaM** » 11 Aug 2017 16:24

vaibhav.n · Post by **vaibhav.n** » 11 Aug 2017 17:07

US Army Issues RFI for 7.62mm Interim Combat Service Rifle

The U.S. Army Contracting Command has issued a request for information—on behalf of Product Manager Individual Weapons—for a new Interim Combat Service Rifle chambered in 7.62x51mm. The Army’s 7.62 Interim Combat Service Rifle requirement was borne out of a need for defeating enemies out to 600m, but Soldier Systems posits that Army Chief of Staff Gen. Mark Milley’s testimony before the Senate Armed Services Committee late last week is now the driving force behind the requirement. Gen. Milley testified that the Army had developed a 7.62 round which will defeat that body armor. The ICSR is intended to fire that cartridge. While the RFI mentions the production 10,000 rifles, remember, that’s a nice round number and not indicative of the actual requirement. Basis of Issue has been tossed around, ranging from four per squad to pure fleet fielding for IBCTs.

Desired Attributes of Interim Combat Service Rifle:
• The rifle must be a Commercial Off The Shelf (COTS) system readily available for purchase today. Modified or customized systems are not being considered.
• Caliber: 7.62x51mm
• Available barrel lengths, to include 16 and 20 inch barrels, without muzzle device attached.
• Muzzle device capable of or adaptable to auxiliary devices for:
— Compensation of muzzle climb
— Flash suppression
— Sound Suppression
• Fire Control: Safe, Semi-automatic, and fully automatic capable.
• All controls (e.g. selector, charging handle) are ambidextrous and operable by left and right handed users
• Capable of mounting a 1.25 inch wide military sling
• Capable of accepting or mounting the following accessories.
— Forward grip/bi-pod for the weapon
— variable power optic
• Detachable magazine with a minimum capacity of 20 rounds
• Folding or collapsing buttstock adjustable to change the overall length of the weapon
• Foldable backup iron sights calibrated/adjustable to a maximum of 600 meters range
• Weight less than 12lb unloaded and without optic
• Extended Forward Rail

http://soldiersystems.net/2017/06/02/pr ... ice-rifle/

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 14 Aug 2017 18:31

Ordnance Factory Trichy made AKM. DCP Delhi police has commented that they are as good in quality as Bulgarian/Russian variants.

Sophisticated illegal arms caught by Delhi Police made in MP.

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 14 Aug 2017 18:34

In one of his OFB Museum tour videos, Sandeep Unnithan commented about a particular AKM variant, MRF-91, made by OFB in early 90s. Has anyone ever heard anything about it ? I always thought A7 was the first AKM variant by OFB before Ghatak, OF Trichy AKM and RF Kanpur AKM came on the scene.

Vips · Post by **Vips** » 19 Aug 2017 02:52

Defence ministry junks machine guns order for foot soldiers.

In yet another major blow to the Army's modernisation plans, the procurement plan for over 44,000 light machine guns (LMGs) for its humble foot soldiers in the infantry has been scrapped by the defence ministry.

This is the third such project, after the cases for new assault rifles and close-quarter battle carbines, to be junked over the last two years. This once again shows that often in race to acquire big weapon systems like tanks and howitzers, desperate need to equip soldiers with basic infantry weapons, bullet-proof jackets, webbing and ballistic helmets often fall by the wayside.

Sources said the defence ministry had "retracted" the tender or RFP (request for proposal) for the 7.62mm calibre LMGs on the ground that it had become a "single-vendor situation" with only the Israeli Weapon Industries (IWI) left in the fray after protracted field trials from December 2015 to February 2017.

The mega "Buy and Make" procurement plan involved an initial direct purchase of around 4,400 LMGs from a foreign armament company, followed by a tie-up with the Ordnance factory Board with transfer of technology for large-scale indigenous production. The entire project would have cost an estimated Rs 13,000 crore.

The dumping of the project comes after MoD late last year also scrapped tender issued in 2010 for 44,618 close-quarter battle carbines, in which too IWI had emerged as "resultant single-vendor" over Italian firm Beretta, amid allegations of irregularities and political intrigue.

Last September, the Army was also forced to re-launch its global hunt for around two lakh new-generation 7.62mm x 51mm assault rifles after similar bids over last decade were scrapped due to corruption scandals, unrealistic technical requirements and change in calibre of the desired guns, as was first reported by TOI.

The last RFP for the assault rifles was scrapped in May 2015 because of the Army's overambitious experiment to induct rifles with interchangeable barrels, with a 5.56x45mm primary barrel for conventional warfare and a 7.62x39mm secondary one for counter-terrorism. "The three cases spell big trouble for the Infantry, which has been grappling with outdated basic weapons and lack of proper bullet-proof jackets for long. Given the long-winded defence procurement procedure, it will years for the new guns to be inducted," said a source.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 19 Aug 2017 02:59

A few things from above report

- MoD has to relook at the single vendor clause rationale. It was to prevent corruption and not to disarm the military. So a waiver process is need to ensure procurements happen in timely manner.
- Services have to look at how unrealistic requirements are being put repeatedly that suppliers balk or walk away and create single vendor situation. Are the requirements being vetted by senior officers or just let the committee put that in the tender?
One or two can be attributed to mistakes but not such repeated fiascos.

The Jaguar Honeywell engine upgrade is also stalled due to this single vendor scenario.

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 19 Aug 2017 18:48

Sandeep Unnithan on Amogh. Can't wait for him to cover MCIWS, MSMC/JVPC/Milaap, Kalantak/INSAS carbine and others.

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 19 Aug 2017 18:49

Funny thing is, MCMC/JVPC/Milaap and Amogh, both have ambidextrous controls, but somehow they aren't there in Mk1C or the new 7.62x51 rifle or Ghatak. It's like unlearning the lessons.

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 19 Aug 2017 20:13

I think only MCIWS is ambidextrous while all other ones have charging handle on one side ie left of receiver.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 19 Aug 2017 21:14

Vips wrote:Defence ministry junks machine guns order for foot soldiers.
...
The mega "Buy and Make" procurement plan involved an initial direct purchase of around 4,400 LMGs from a foreign armament company, followed by a tie-up with the Ordnance factory Board with transfer of technology for large-scale indigenous production. The entire project would have cost an estimated Rs 13,000 crore.
...

That's around 45K USD for each machine gun!

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 19 Aug 2017 21:54

Thakur_B wrote:

Sandeep Unnithan on Amogh. Can't wait for him to cover MCIWS, MSMC/JVPC/Milaap, Kalantak/INSAS carbine and others.

Comment section from Sandeep

Sandeep Unnithan13 hours ago
the simple answer to that--- the OFB has been cut off from the rapid advances in firearm technology. they are a pure production agency that has diversified into weapon design a decade or so...which for a sarkari corporation, is hardly any time at all. the Amogh I think is their first independent design ever. (they relied on the DRDO for design). and so far relied on the East block firearms for inspiration-- the INSAS is heavily inspired from eastern design philosophy (read, AK family), only one Indian design, the (now dead) MICWS went down the western design route (AR-15/M-16 family)

Sandeep Unnithan11 hours ago
MSMC set to start another round of trials soon. lets hope it makes it. it is a fantastic weapon and possibly the best IDDM firearm and deserves better. the MICWS project was shut down in 2015. no hope for this. Hope the DRDO/ARDE can revive it at some point at least as an AK import substitute.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 19 Aug 2017 21:56

The actual numbers are 44000. 4400 is off the shelf purchase. So the it comes out at 4500 $ per gun and not 45000$.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 19 Aug 2017 23:25

^^^
Plz recheck your calculations saar, you have missed a zero somewhere.

A 2 billion USD small arms contract is unheard of, hope it's a typo/DDMites.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 20 Aug 2017 09:29

Hai!
The MSMC made a splashing debut on Call Of Duty and is being called by many many users as the BEST submachine / PDW weapon ever!

Many videos on youtube

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 20 Aug 2017 11:47

https://youtu.be/MRSX391zmO4

https://youtu.be/Wxg3Q3Yr19o

https://youtu.be/BEYwdhfW9YA

And many more...

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 20 Aug 2017 17:31

H&K has launched HK433, mating the goodness of G36 and HK416. Unlike G36, this is all metal and is supposed to be significantly cheaper than HK416.
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2017 ... ical-test/

It is supposed to be a part of family of weapons available in multiple calibres. The 433 comes in 6 barrel lengths.

It shall be competing against Steyr Mannlicher RS556, an AR-15 derivative from Steyr for adoption by German Army.