China Military Watch - Sept' 2016

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 30 Jul 2017 08:06

Gagan wrote:Which means that in the near future, India needs to deploy large (actually massive) fixed AESA radars facing north and east in the himalayas to keep a close eye on chinese missile and aircraft activity.

maine to pehle hi bola tha... but due to himalaya, either we have to locate them on higher elevations in arunachal and uttaranchal or find some OTH tech if we want a low radar horizon.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 30 Jul 2017 08:10

Maybe there is a strong need for millimeter wave radar, where the dish is small enough to be man-portable.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 30 Jul 2017 11:54

http://blogs.timesofindia.indiatimes.co ... ese-tanks/

blogs.timesofindia.indiatimes.com
Debunking the hype on Chinese tanks
Lt General K J Singh
5-6 minutes

As the stand-off on Doklam extends into second month, it has raised serious questions on long-held belief that the border between Sikkim and Tibet is settled.

In absence of an agreement, on delineation and demarcation, mutual understanding has been based on an informal agreement on border conforming to a series of features, a sort of delimitation.

Notwithstanding this, there have been frequent pin-pricks, which have been downplayed by us.

In this age of satellites and GPS, two nuclear powers have continued to rely on stone heaps, referred to as Cairns on Kerang plateau in Northern Sikkim. Dragon has its own interpretation leading to silly game of dispersal and regathering of stone heaps. More importantly, Chinese periodically attempt to cut across the line of Cairns to test and stretch our deployment and surveillance. Tracks that Chinese construct in un-held areas unlike roads can take only limited traffic but they signal intention and potential for further mischief.

Chinese border management is based on Border Defence Regiments akin to our BSF / ITBP operating from bases like Yatung and Phari Dzong, who patrol to reiterate claims. Timing and choice of location of patrols is orchestrated to convey a message. Most objective comparison in various patrol stand-offs unequivocally establishes that Dragon is certainly not a ten feet tall super creature. It would be pragmatic to surmise that more like ‘Dr Deng’ of Hindi movies, it is to be feared for scheming nature. Our dealings in past have been defensive due to our belief in ‘peaceful rising’ China. Though slow but we are on a path of sustained capability building, which has been a relative success story in Sikkim. Has this pace combined with impending elections in Bhutan contributed to rattling of China and choice of location for stand-off?

What we are seeing is an aggressive Dragon, once again to borrow Bollywood analogy, the evil money lender, who considers it is his right to grab. Having established economic suzerainty in ASEAN, it promulgated, ‘Nine Dashes Line’ in South China sea and forced littorals like Philippines into meek submission. China is serving a dangerous brew of psychological warfare aided by media backed up with legal and cartographic manipulation. It is already beginning to have some effect as we hear informed voices warning us of possibility of ‘boomerang’ and even finding merit in Chinese claims.

Dolam is a pasture, grazing rights and permits for which have been traditionally controlled by Bhutan. Chinese on their part have been intimidating the grazers thereby shrinking the area to bolster their claim. Sikkimese documents describe Mt Gipmochi as Batang La, reinforcing our position, stand-offs is hardly a way to resolve delicate issue of tri-junction. In any case, what is the hurry to construct a road in unsettled pasture, where three claimants differ on its extent and there is an informal stand still agreement? If legal manipulation and cartographic aggression is going to be the new normal than we should focus on building matching capability using historic literature and local academia. Litigation in on going compensation cases in Sikkim High Court particularly recent judgement awarding compensation and revenue records need to be analysed, referenced and digitised.

It would be in order to correct the misperception that China, after they get to Zompleri ridge line, can roll down to Siliguri corridor. Treacherous mountainous jungle terrain and total absence of connectivity limits application of force levels and will reduce it to a slogging crawl. Such offensives need logistic sustenance, narrow Chumbi valley, dominated on both flanks, with limited deployment spaces and acclimatisation challenges is a virtual death trap. While granting credit to Chinese for favourable force ratios, its actual efficacy has to be discounted as force multipliers have severe limitation in application due to weather and terrain.

Though not immediate, it is a potent threat in the long term, above all, we have obligations to our neighbour and cannot be bullied into giving up our justified claim. Wisdom lies in nuanced backing off, which can be orchestrated as three step disengagement. India can start by pulling back to an agreed interim phase line, followed by Chinese disengagement and finally India completing the process. Embarrassment can be further minimised by finding low level scape goats, after all it was done at Sansha (Spartly).

DISCLAIMER : Views expressed above are the author's own.

negi · Post by **negi** » 30 Jul 2017 12:39

Actually we should worry more about the terrain hugging cruise missiles as against BMs which follow a lofted trajectory ; latter being larger and having a much higher IR signature can be detected by LEO satellites so we will have enough time to cue our ABM FCRs for such events , however cruise missiles flying through Himalayan terrain would be tricky to detect leave alone engage . Conversely speaking we need Nirbhay to come on line pretty fast.

sum · Post by **sum** » 30 Jul 2017 12:45

Is the Nirbhay even progressing or in complete standstill since absolute zero news on it and it comfortably missed all deadlines put out after the last failure?

kmkraoind · Post by **kmkraoind** » 30 Jul 2017 22:34

Wandering Baba @Leopard212
A Chinese Terracotta Army MBT Type 96 had a sort of a wardrobe malfunction during the International Army Games. . Pic via @raikartikey1

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 31 Jul 2017 00:17

Hawww!

Chinese quality on proud display

Shame shame, poppy shame!
All the zeros know your name!
Loss of face, shame on the honour of the Chinese nation and the Party!

Reeducation camp for the driver, and designer - no not the designer, he is a senior party member.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 31 Jul 2017 00:20

The terrain on the course in Russia is still soft sand and small gravel. It is much more easier than the territory around Daulat Beg Oldie or Demchock.

The Chinese are better off marching this tank in beijing on mil day parade. The wheels are coming off on their own!
The chinese need to leave war-fighting to adults. These precious single child army are sissy, crybabies.
Inse naa hoga ladai wadai

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 31 Jul 2017 04:17

kmkraoind wrote:Wandering Baba @Leopard212
A Chinese Terracotta Army MBT Type 96 had a sort of a wardrobe malfunction during the International Army Games. . Pic via @raikartikey1

Daemn son !!

next time don't brake so hard
ha ha ha ha ha

ArjunPandit · Post by **ArjunPandit** » 31 Jul 2017 05:06

This is last year's image
Chinese tank breakdown in 2016

VKumar · Post by **VKumar** » 31 Jul 2017 05:23

China showed off more than 600 pieces of military equipment in a parade recently,of which half were displayed for the first time.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 31 Jul 2017 05:27

The xerox machines were working overtime then?

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 31 Jul 2017 05:30

Debunking the hype on Chinese tanks
http://blogs.timesofindia.indiatimes.co ... ese-tanks/

By Lt General K J Singh (Retd)
The author is former Army Commander, Western Command

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 31 Jul 2017 06:09

kmkraoind wrote:Wandering Baba @Leopard212
A Chinese Terracotta Army MBT Type 96 had a sort of a wardrobe malfunction during the International Army Games. . Pic via @raikartikey1

I am no tank making genius but having seen a few tanks close up - I can say that the wheel that has fallen off probably sat at the end of a swivelling arm that is now pointing up on the side of the tank and that arm was restricted in its movement by a shock-absorber in the rectangular box like object that can be seen just behind the drive wheel in front. The metal has sheared off cleanly it appears - a serious material failure and IMO definitely points to a manufacturing defect

DavidD · Post by **DavidD** » 31 Jul 2017 10:47

Manufacturing defect for sure, closeups released last year showed that it indeed shear off very cleanly. Pretty new tank too, that model was just revealed to the public a few days prior to the Tank Biathlon last year, so probably not just stress either though it could've undergone a lot of tests as one of the first ones of a new model. According to Jane's the wheels are new, not sure about the axles, but something went wrong there for sure. Whatever the root cause is, it's a pretty embarrassing display in an international forum.

darshhan · Post by **darshhan** » 31 Jul 2017 10:51

Gives new meaning to the term " chinese quality ".

darshhan · Post by **darshhan** » 31 Jul 2017 10:58

DavidD wrote:Manufacturing defect for sure, closeups released last year showed that it indeed shear off very cleanly. Pretty new tank too, that model was just revealed to the public a few days prior to the Tank Biathlon last year, so probably not just stress either though it could've undergone a lot of tests as one of the first ones of a new model. According to Jane's the wheels are new, not sure about the axles, but something went wrong there for sure. Whatever the root cause is, it's a pretty embarrassing display in an international forum.

DavidD, The above post of yours is also a testament to chinese thinking. While your defence equipment is coming apart, all you care about is how it embarrases you and how shameful it is in an international forum. War fighting capability be damned but loss of face in an international platform cant be tolerated.

No wonder I havent seen a single independent audit on PLA's operational effectiveness including equipment and tactics. Meanwhile In the absence of such an audit the mistakes and flaws will continue to pile up and come back to bite PLA in ass should they ever find themselves in a combat situation.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 31 Jul 2017 11:02

i think it was going over a series of speedbreaker things which are standard in tank test ranges...made of concrete and it tests the independent suspension of each wheel making it move up and down like a milipedes legs. each wheel looks like its attached by 10 bolts seen on the outside...whatever round plate it was attached too may have come off with the wheel when the axle sheared off, leaving the wheel intact.

i would say it does happen. the wheels and tracks themselves are not like car wheels thats why armies put tracked vehicles on flatbed trucks unless really needed.

so no point crowing over it. stock up on our sticks and get ready for a fight in any case.

the 600 vehicle inner mongolia parade thing is because they usually showcase 4 to 12 instances of the same system never 1 like we do in republic day. this is std soviet union system like 4 x DF31 telar will drive in a row for more shakinah looks and intimidation. so divide the 600 by 6 to get 100 types which is fair enough..any large army will have 100-200 vehicle types.

DavidD · Post by **DavidD** » 31 Jul 2017 11:16

darshhan wrote:
DavidD wrote:Manufacturing defect for sure, closeups released last year showed that it indeed shear off very cleanly. Pretty new tank too, that model was just revealed to the public a few days prior to the Tank Biathlon last year, so probably not just stress either though it could've undergone a lot of tests as one of the first ones of a new model. According to Jane's the wheels are new, not sure about the axles, but something went wrong there for sure. Whatever the root cause is, it's a pretty embarrassing display in an international forum.
DavidD, The above post of yours is also a testament to chinese thinking. While your defence equipment is coming apart, all you care about is how it embarrases you and how shameful it is in an international forum. War fighting capability be damned but loss of face in an international platform cant be tolerated.

No wonder I havent seen a single independent audit on PLA's operational effectiveness including equipment and tactics. Meanwhile In the absence of such an audit the mistakes and flaws will continue to pile up and come back to bite PLA in ass should they ever find themselves in a combat situation.

My entire post except that last line discusses potential causes of this failure, but you decide to find some fault with that last sentence which is simply conveying agreement with the sentiments expressed by other posters above. Should I interpret your need to find faults in others to pump yourself up a testament to Indian thinking?

DavidD · Post by **DavidD** » 31 Jul 2017 11:33

Singha wrote:i think it was going over a series of speedbreaker things which are standard in tank test ranges...made of concrete and it tests the independent suspension of each wheel making it move up and down like a milipedes legs. each wheel looks like its attached by 10 bolts seen on the outside...whatever round plate it was attached too may have come off with the wheel when the axle sheared off, leaving the wheel intact.

i would say it does happen. the wheels and tracks themselves are not like car wheels thats why armies put tracked vehicles on flatbed trucks unless really needed.

so no point crowing over it. stock up on our sticks and get ready for a fight in any case.

the 600 vehicle inner mongolia parade thing is because they usually showcase 4 to 12 instances of the same system never 1 like we do in republic day. this is std soviet union system like 4 x DF31 telar will drive in a row for more shakinah looks and intimidation. so divide the 600 by 6 to get 100 types which is fair enough..any large army will have 100-200 vehicle types.

They had a lot more units of each type (e.g. I think they mentioned 22 Type-99A tanks?), so only a fraction of the types in service with the PLA is shown. Many of the types shown are paraded for the first time but have been in service for quite a while now. I think the only new vehicle they showed is the DF-31AG ICBM, but nobody has a good sense of China's nuclear arsenal so we don't know how long it's been in service or even if it's in service.

The aircrafts are mostly pretty new though, they're all top of the line stuff for the PLAAF. The only thing they didn't show are the UAVs.

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 31 Jul 2017 11:41

I remember during international tank games held in Russia, the Chinese were in awe of Arjun Tanks.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 31 Jul 2017 18:20

I don't know how those wheels are made.I doubt if they are cast. More likely they are shaped from a block of metal. Just a tooth gap guess.That particular wheel is the one that takes all the weight when the tank brakes hard and I suspect that the shearing force on that axle and on the corresponding axle on the other side goes up to several hundred tonnes (or even 4 figures) each time the tank brakes hard or hits a bump/step. I am guessing that the shock absorber is crucial. If it fails or if it is defective the wheel may go "bang" So can't tell where the failure occurred exactly. Maybe some automobile types will have a better idea..

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 31 Jul 2017 18:30

The shock absorber axle arm broke off.
Big time quality issue here. Thie could happen across the board on the entire fleet, on any wheel

This is exactly what happens when there is inadequate designing and testing.
Look at the JF-17 for example, 3-5 crashes already, poorly finished product, which must have big time quality and maintainability issues. This is a problem across the board for all chinese made products

nam · Post by **nam** » 31 Jul 2017 18:40

I presume the shock on the Chinese tank was torrison bar.

There was a doordharshan video about Arjun which showed it travelling on speed bumps and it's hydro pneumatic shocks in full glory.

Here is another one, watch at 2:50 & 8.06

Notice the speed it has over the bumps. All thanks to pneumatic shocks.

DavidD · Post by **DavidD** » 31 Jul 2017 23:33

You can see how the wheel broke off here, seems like that wheel hit a bump particularly hard and got sheared off.

The damage is likely done earlier during a collision with the Iranian team's tank, you can see the Iranian tank hitting the Chinese tank (109) at that exact spot:

AdityaM · Post by **AdityaM** » 01 Aug 2017 01:20

From 2017 tank games edition, video in tweet

https://twitter.com/xhnews/status/891284118553600001

https://t.co/UAsfP66jKw?amp=1

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 01 Aug 2017 02:30

My madrasa math tells me that 100 sub-par tanks are better then 1 gold standard tank. Chinese tanks are very poor in quality, their armor almost non-existent, but they exist, and they exist in huge numbers.

As much as I like to laugh at them, absence of Arjun (replaced by T-90) is whats is eating me from inside.

Instead its their ZT-96 is going toe to toe with our "make in India" T-90. SAD!!

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 01 Aug 2017 02:39

DavidD wrote:You can see how the wheel broke off here, seems like that wheel hit a bump particularly hard and got sheared off.

Amazing, so that particular unit actually finished the run with same damaged tank, and managed to fire couple of rounds as well. So they turned this into a positive story, I cannot imagine what our media would have done to Arjun if a wheel had flown out like this.

niran · Post by **niran** » 01 Aug 2017 09:35

move on gents it was just a road wheel coming off, as long as the wheels ain't stuck or it is road wheels tanks will perform, as is evident from the video.

chola · Post by **chola** » 01 Aug 2017 11:00

Sid wrote:My madrasa math tells me that 100 sub-par tanks are better then 1 gold standard tank. Chinese tanks are very poor in quality, their armor almost non-existent, but they exist, and they exist in huge numbers.

As much as I like to laugh at them, absence of Arjun (replaced by T-90) is whats is eating me from inside.

Instead its their ZT-96 is going toe to toe with our "make in India" T-90. SAD!!

It is much more serious than this. The chini military is based on intimidation and changing the facts on the ground/sea during PEACE time.

Numbers, especially in ships and aircraft but also ground vehicles, create persistence in disputed areas no matter the quality. This is why they build roads and artificial islands everywhere.

This logistics/infrastructure/numbers encrouchment policy works very well until someone makes Cheen go to war and then the quality issues will show up. But seeing that the PLA has not had to fight in five decades in spite of aggressive salami tactics, nothing will change because no one is willing to actually fight them.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 01 Aug 2017 11:05

they have found perfect soln to a optimization operations research problem - how do you plan for 99% peace and 1% war in the timeline ?

answer is - do what is being done as stated above to accrue steady gains most of the time and keep the pressure on challengers - not enough to goad a conflict but enough to keep the heat on. use other means like media and politics in adversary countries to restrict the response ...

in the 1% scenario, there is always nuclear weapons as a final backstop, and enough things will work .... and with any luck the demoralized and cowed down adversaries (like ASEAN) would not even dare to challenge (as seen in SCS)

so unless someone finds a solution to the 99% problem how to make them suffer and lose things in the 'warm peace' , there is no point spending so many CPU cycles on the 1% use case. so rather than debating a takeover of aksai chin etc, we should think of returning the favour and 100s of regular intrusions and squatting on unoccupied pieces of land all over and then blandly calling for talks, ancient maps have to be found, fakenews MSM have to be given chai pani to parrot our lines , ..... do tit for tat all over ... embroil them in a 100 disputes .... this will cut their gains from 'warm peace' to 0 and stabilize the situation.

they might then turn attention to easier adversaries in CAR, amur river front with russia and himalayan front will be quiet.

DavidD · Post by **DavidD** » 01 Aug 2017 11:29

Here's another video on Rear Admiral Ma Weiming, of interest is the first video of the IEPS he's developing (midway through the video):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFeqFbBPND0

Short summary: Dr. Ma received the 8/1 medal for his medium-voltage DC propulsion system, which has been described in the past and in this video as well as a system that leads the world by 10 years.

Dr. Ma had previously described IEPS in 3 generations, with the 3rd generation being a full DC propulsion system which only his team has developed. I believe the Type 45, Zumwalt, and Ford class all use 1st or 2nd gen systems. The new system is rumored to be equipped on the upcoming 054B frigates. The theoretical superiority of a DC system is not in question, but how well it'll work in practice of course remains to be seen. Both the Type 45 and the Zumwalt have had their fair share of engine problems, so we'll have to see if Dr. Ma's system works as well as he boasts. Of note, Dr. Ma is also the guy heading the EMALS and the rimless propulsion system projects. He's probably the most prized scientist for the PLA currently, the head of the PLA Navy was seen holding an umbrella for him when he came to inspect one of his projects.

chola · Post by **chola** » 01 Aug 2017 12:22

Singha wrote:they have found perfect soln to a optimization operations research problem - how do you plan for 99% peace and 1% war in the timeline ?

answer is - do what is being done as stated above to accrue steady gains most of the time and keep the pressure on challengers - not enough to goad a conflict but enough to keep the heat on. use other means like media and politics in adversary countries to restrict the response ...

in the 1% scenario, there is always nuclear weapons as a final backstop, and enough things will work .... and with any luck the demoralized and cowed down adversaries (like ASEAN) would not even dare to challenge (as seen in SCS)

so unless someone finds a solution to the 99% problem how to make them suffer and lose things in the 'warm peace' , there is no point spending so many CPU cycles on the 1% use case. so rather than debating a takeover of aksai chin etc, we should think of returning the favour and 100s of regular intrusions and squatting on unoccupied pieces of land all over and then blandly calling for talks, ancient maps have to be found, fakenews MSM have to be given chai pani to parrot our lines , ..... do tit for tat all over ... embroil them in a 100 disputes .... this will cut their gains from 'warm peace' to 0 and stabilize the situation.

they might then turn attention to easier adversaries in CAR, amur river front with russia and himalayan front will be quiet.

Exactly. Highly unprofitable if your military is useful only during war. And war is not the strength of SYRE people.

Cheen is an economic/manufacturing power and even the massive amounts of mil equipment comes from the fact they can build lots not that they can use them in actual fighting.

So when they give us an opportunity and excuse to fight for real like the current situation in Bhutan and when we have all the advantages, what should we do?

chola · Post by **chola** » 01 Aug 2017 12:33

DavidD wrote:Here's another video on Rear Admiral Ma Weiming, of interest is the first video of the IEPS he's developing (midway through the video):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFeqFbBPND0

Short summary: Dr. Ma received the 8/1 medal for his medium-voltage DC propulsion system, which has been described in the past and in this video as well as a system that leads the world by 10 years.

Dr. Ma had previously described IEPS in 3 generations, with the 3rd generation being a full DC propulsion system which only his team has developed. I believe the Type 45, Zumwalt, and Ford class all use 1st or 2nd gen systems. The new system is rumored to be equipped on the upcoming 054B frigates. The theoretical superiority of a DC system is not in question, but how well it'll work in practice of course remains to be seen. Both the Type 45 and the Zumwalt have had their fair share of engine problems, so we'll have to see if Dr. Ma's system works as well as he boasts. Of note, Dr. Ma is also the guy heading the EMALS and the rimless propulsion system projects. He's probably the most prized scientist for the PLA currently, the head of the PLA Navy was seen holding an umbrella for him when he came to inspect one of his projects.

The fvcking lizard has their Adm Rickover.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 01 Aug 2017 12:48

chola calm down.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 01 Aug 2017 12:53

a very large RV - easily fuel , small ring of liquid motors and 700kg - it is in effect the 3rd stage which defines a true ICBM

NDTV

Mihir · Post by **Mihir** » 01 Aug 2017 19:09

IIRC, during last year's biathlon, the ZTZ-96 appeared to show a superior fire on the move capability than whatever mark of T-72 the Russians had brought with them. Where the T-72 had to practically stop and fire, the ZTZ only slowed down, shot off a shell, and took off again.

ricky_v · Post by **ricky_v** » 01 Aug 2017 19:21

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2017 ... 287806.htm

The five new generals are: Han Weiguo, commander of the Central Theater; Liu Lei, political commissar of the PLA Ground Force; Yu Zhongfu, political commissar of the PLA Air Force; Wang Jia-sheng, political commissar of the PLA Rocket Force; and Gao Jin, commander of the PLA Strategic Support Force.

Wtf are political commissars? Are the highest and mightiest in lizard land just flunkies?

As for the award, this is the fourth time — and the first time since 1988 — that the Chinese military gave its highest military honor to distinguished individuals, who were selected from a list of 17 candidates published in June.
The recipients came from a wide range of military, science and armed police forces, including Rear Admiral Ma Mingwei, the leading engineer of electromagnetic catapult for Chinese aircraft carriers; Major General Jing Haipeng, an astronaut and the commander of the Shenzhou XI spacecraft; and Yin Chunrong, a border policeman who cracked more than 890 drug cases and caught more than 1,470 criminal suspects since 1998.

AdityaM · Post by **AdityaM** » 02 Aug 2017 07:34

Chinese base in Djibouti

More images at https://twitter.com/rajfortyseven/statu ... 5323530240
https://twitter.com/rajfortyseven/statu ... 7028834305

https://twitter.com/rajfortyseven/statu ... 8184931329

Is this twitter person one of brf?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 02 Aug 2017 07:42

AdityaM wrote:
Is this twitter person one of brf?

No. He is quite an arrogant bugger and will not answer questions. He blocked me on Twitter after he acted like an asshole when I asked him a simple question. He wanted me to give him my name, address and undie size to prove which side I am on and follow him as well (I was following him then). I gave him a short lesson on politeness and he blocked me