Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 31 Jul 2017 00:27

Bangladesh Navy officers, cadets visit Indian Naval Academy at Ezhimala
http://www.financialexpress.com/india-n ... la/785576/

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 31 Jul 2017 22:48

Indian Navy Gets Cracking on Jet Trials for $15 Billion Fighter Deal
https://sputniknews.com/asia/2017073110 ... hter-jets/

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 01 Aug 2017 06:32

Rakesh wrote:Indian Navy Gets Cracking on Jet Trials for $15 Billion Fighter Deal
https://sputniknews.com/asia/2017073110 ... hter-jets/

How is money available now?

http://m.timesofindia.com/india/MMRCA-d ... 910444.cms

MMRCA deal: India to scrap $20 billion mega project for 126 Rafale fighter jets

Rajat Pandit | TNN | Apr 14, 2015, 12.47AM IST

NEW DELHI: The Modi government has sounded the death knell for the deadlocked $20 billion MMRCA (medium multi-role combat aircraft) project to acquire 126 fighters, which was dubbed the "mother of all defence deals" around the globe after competition for it was launched by the previous UPA regime in 2007.

20 billion dollars deal for 126 jets manufactured here was too expensive, and 57 fighters for 15 billion dollars isn't?

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 01 Aug 2017 14:47

Vice Admiral flouts rules to promote son-in-law, sabotages career of promising officer

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/nepo ... 15716.html

In a case wherein a father-in-law sabotaged the career of a nuclear submarine specialist officer to promote his son-in-law, a military court reprimanded the Navy for allowing such nepotism and slapped a fine of Rs 5 lakh on the vice admiral who did this.
Officer commander SS Luthra was one of the 11 specialist officers trained in Russia for handling nuclear submarine reactors of INS Arihant and INS Chakra - the two strategic submarines in the Navy and had to quit facing discrimination.
"This is manifest and clearly evident that vice-admiral Pradeep Chatterjee has interfered in a mala fide and unjustified manner in the confidential records of commander Luthra," the Armed Forces Tribunal (AFT) Bench comprising Justice Virendra Singh and Lt Gen Sanjeev Langer said in its judgment.
"It is equally apparent to us that the profile of capt AV Agashe has been positively affected and enhanced in an unjustified manner by his father-in-law," the Bench added.
Luthra, in his plea, had alleged that Chatterjee was the senior reviewing officer (SRO) for officers serving in both INS Chakra and INS Arihant from 2010-12 as the inspector-general, nuclear safety - the officer in-charge for securing nuclear submarines and secret projects of the force. It was alleged that Chatterjee manipulated the naval system in such a way that he has been either reviewing officer or senior reviewing officer for his own son-in-law on various occasions. Due to this, other officers who were being considered in the same promotion board as his son-in-law stood at a disadvantage, the petition alleged.
Chatterjee retired from the Navy last year after commanding the Andaman and Nicobar Command and serving as deputy chief of the force.
The AFT took a strong view against the Navy's inactiveness in allowing the nepotism to grow saying, "It is disturbing and surprising that the Indian Navy does not have an in-built system to ensure such probable occurrence between relatives are addressed institutionally, so that such a situation, as occurred in this case, does not manifest."
The AFT "struck down" entries made by Chatterjee in Luthra's service record and asked the Navy to reconsider him for promotion to the rank of captain from the date when he was due to be considered for elevation.
The court said though Luthra has, of his own volition, already proceeded on premature retirement (PMR) and if he is approved for promotion, the officer will be granted his rank from the original date of his batch, and will be entitled to full pension and all terminal benefits in his enhanced rank.
On Luthra's exit from service, the court noted that the officer rather than serving superseded by others, has chosen to proceed on premature retirement.
Seeking to compensate the officer, the court slapped a cost on the vice-admiral, saying "He shall pay an amount of Rs 5 lakh as costs to the applicant, which is directed to be deposited with the principal registrar of this Tribunal within three months of the order."
On Agashe, who benefitted as son-in-law of the vice-admiral, the court did not interfere in his promotion but asked the Navy to keep the inflated ACRs in mind while considering him for elevation to the next rank.

DrRatnadip · Post by **DrRatnadip** » 01 Aug 2017 15:24

Fine of 5 lac only and no punishment for wrongfuly promoted son in law.. I feel this is too little punishment given for a serious misconduct.. Such things negatively impact moral of young officers.. I hope mechanisms to stop such occurence in future will be installed soon..

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 01 Aug 2017 19:45

MMRCA/New naval figjter.Costs.Mysterious and arcane are the workings of our MOD.Min.of Dumbwits!

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 03 Aug 2017 01:19

X-Posting from the SE Fighter thread...

US Denies Transfer of Critical Technology and F-16 Fighter Production in India
http://www.defenseworld.net/news/20116/ ... YIkKdIzXIU

If the above is true, what chances does the F-18 have?

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 03 Aug 2017 01:50

TOT can mean anything. The Naval fighter program is a double digit acquisition program. Do you think there is going to be significant TOT demanded with it? Offsets and access to certain systems in order to make changes (Even UAE got source codes to the Falcon Edge EW system) Yes but even if there were willingness to grant TOT the cost would be significant for such a small deal essentially killing it. Having said that if TOT is a 'must have' for these critical systems then the F/A-18 would be a no go. I think the Korean KF-X program support is the most the US is willing to give to any perspective operator for these systems.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 03 Aug 2017 15:01

Imo better to go israel way and install own offensive and defensive ew systems than ask for neutered gear sold all over incl to pakistan

Ideally the radar and weapons too but we are not there while israel has a full suite. Usa forces them to use only us gear to use up the annual arms subsidy

So f16 and f15 in idfaf use amraam but not derby i believe

This would permit us to buy a empty shell fgfa with engines only and install our own things down to computers and cockpits

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 03 Aug 2017 17:46

That may have been true for legacy systems where there were largely federated systems where you could replace certain components and mission systems designed in the 80s with more modern ones. However, with modern systems and increasingly with 5th generation systems this will be getting progressively harder and more expensive. Even on the F/A-18E/F much of the hundreds of millions of $ invested in block 1 to block 2 and now block 2 to block 3 development has involved closely linked integrated systems and processes like the mission computers, radar and software.

The additional radar modes, better ECM resistance and improved NCTR performance of the radar is closely linked with the overall integrated avionics suite and the software enhancements. On the F-35 this is even harder much of the processing and data crunching that would be handled by the radar in the past is actually done by the mission computers and as a stand alone set it isn't even a complete radar that you can mount on another fighter for example. Israel has smartly layered their proprietary waveform and EW modes on top of the F-35 CNI system because the wideband apertures and antennas pre-installed on the JSF allowed them to do it without any significant noticeable hardware changes (other than the CNI additions where the open architecture allows for proprietary systems to be added) but replacing whole-sale systems with indigenous ones is not possible without breaking the architecture unless you gain access into the program as a developmental partner and run an alternative development program alongside it.

Weapons are easier to integrate than mission systems but here Israel must balance what it pays for and what it uses US aid. One succesfull route they have followed is that of joint development using US money as is the case with much of their ballistic missile defense program where they may be cross compatibility allowing for these systems to be integrated on US products (Like Skycepter with Patriot) but yeah if they want large weapon suits to be indigenous then they need to spend their own money on buying them and replacing avionics on aircraft projects like the JSF would essentially mean running a parallel mission system and software program which is a very large undertaking and since Israel has a fairly small buy, and is an FMS customer not a feasible option.

kmkraoind · Post by **kmkraoind** » 03 Aug 2017 17:58

Aviator Anil Chopra @Chopsyturvey
Cochin, Indian Navy's new aircraft carrier being fitted out.

chola · Post by **chola** » 03 Aug 2017 18:04

Come on, CSL. Let's finish up the Vikrant. IN expects handover in 2018 so at the very least we should have sea trials soon.

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 03 Aug 2017 18:11

Are we still using Sea Harriers? I thought we do not. I have seen them parked on land this week nearly half a dozen. Any significance of this?

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 04 Aug 2017 02:56

SHARs have been retired for a while now. The ones you saw are probably waiting to be disposed of or waiting for gate guardian duties.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 05 Aug 2017 00:00

Indian Navy wants Russian MiG-29K jets to be ‘ruggedized’
https://www.defensenews.com/land/2017/0 ... uggedized/

Vips · Post by **Vips** » 05 Aug 2017 03:28

^^^^

“There are frequent structural defects due to deck landing,” the official added.

“After every carrier landing (which is virtually like a crash), components of the aircraft crack, break or stop functioning. The aircraft, then goes to the workshop for repair/replacement of the part, which often has to come from Russia,” Prakash said.

“Since induction in February 2010, 40 engines (62 percent) of twin-engine MiG-29K fighters have been withdrawn from service due to design-related defects,” according to the report.

So essentially these "cheap" MIG 29 jets at $50 Million each are nothing but flying Junk.

“The truth is that the Indian Navy has virtually funded the development of this aircraft (which the Russian Navy is now adopting), and if the Russians had any ethics they would ensure that every shortcoming is fixed free of cost.”

According to the MoD official, state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Limited is of little help in this situation: “Without approval of design authority, it is difficult to go in for any modification.”

Sounds too familiar doesn't it? The T90 tamasha (modus operandi) being repeated here by the Russians.

chola · Post by **chola** » 05 Aug 2017 09:16

^^^ Nothing surprises us any more with the MiG-29K. The Russians did a good job of selling us the "free" Gorshkov which in turn limited us to the 29K lemon and here we are.

The silver lining is the IN has already seem enough and is taking action rather quickly.

Hopefully we will select a good aircraft from the 57 naval aircraft tender.

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 05 Aug 2017 09:32

The cost will be a factor. From what I read here Vikranth can not have Rafale. So F-18? I do not think there is another AC available other than F 35.

negi · Post by **negi** » 05 Aug 2017 10:53

Even a small sized company buying a million dollar SW product puts it through more rigorous tests than what our military put foreign equipment to I mean if IN would have simply spent 1 day not more to simply check if the 29k could make 4 back to back take off and landings from the carrier with moderate load paint a target and come back things would have come out in open but our boys spent 1 year in Russia aur poora naam mitti mein mila diye. Structural deficiencies aside Radar too is defective .

When N Tejas's time will come magnifying glasses will come out ; F-35 might get bought just after watching the movie Green Lantern .

shaun · Post by **shaun** » 05 Aug 2017 10:54

Vips wrote:^^^^
“There are frequent structural defects due to deck landing,” the official added.

“After every carrier landing (which is virtually like a crash), components of the aircraft crack, break or stop functioning. The aircraft, then goes to the workshop for repair/replacement of the part, which often has to come from Russia,” Prakash said.

“Since induction in February 2010, 40 engines (62 percent) of twin-engine MiG-29K fighters have been withdrawn from service due to design-related defects,” according to the report.
So essentially these "cheap" MIG 29 jets at $50 Million each are nothing but flying Junk.

“The truth is that the Indian Navy has virtually funded the development of this aircraft (which the Russian Navy is now adopting), and if the Russians had any ethics they would ensure that every shortcoming is fixed free of cost.”

According to the MoD official, state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Limited is of little help in this situation: “Without approval of design authority, it is difficult to go in for any modification.”
Sounds too familiar doesn't it? The T90 tamasha (modus operandi) being repeated here by the Russians.

Well , the ruskies never told you to play hard with their toys !! Did they ? After every carrier landing ,defects means question mark on the evaluation process or the article simply magnifying the "usual " problems with carrier A/c s in order to accommodate the F series . Did GOI forced navy to purchase lemon or it's the other way , though I believe the former .

Prithwiraj · Post by **Prithwiraj** » 05 Aug 2017 11:05

It was a case too big to fail... the carrier was already invested and by the time mig29k trials started we already crossed point of no return.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 05 Aug 2017 12:18

Yagnasri wrote:Are we still using Sea Harriers? I thought we do not. I have seen them parked on land this week nearly half a dozen. Any significance of this?

where are they? all orphans from the viraat and no ships is available for them

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 05 Aug 2017 12:25

They are in Dabolim Naval Air base Goa. Parked on the ground.

negi · Post by **negi** » 05 Aug 2017 15:18

Sea Harriers have have been retired.

chola · Post by **chola** » 05 Aug 2017 16:48

Singha wrote:
Yagnasri wrote:Are we still using Sea Harriers? I thought we do not. I have seen them parked on land this week nearly half a dozen. Any significance of this?
where are they? all orphans from the viraat and no ships is available for them

No reason why the Vikramaditya can't take them if they are serviceable.

chola · Post by **chola** » 05 Aug 2017 17:06

The chini Type 001A carrier is way ahead of schedule and is looking like it would be handed over to their navy next year. Posted news story in china watch thread.

Keel laid down in 2015, launched 2017 and probable comission in 2018 or 2019 latest.

For comparison, the keel for the Vikrant was laid diwn in 2009. IN expects induction in 2018 but only for sea trials. CAG do not see flight system installment before 2023.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 06 Aug 2017 02:28

VikA.29Ks bought at $ 32M each.
The carrier came with a maintenance package.Shocking that we're now told that the aircraft did not. The report says that the "service" ,meaning IN did not ask for it.Inconceivable,plus it is the MOD that negotiates and signs contracts.
This aspect must be cross-ckd.IAF aircraft buys come with maintenance packages,why not for the IN in this case?

Time and again we've seen shoddy contracts detrimental to the nation tx to the MOD.Scorpenes,components,where France has made a huge profit for one example.However,I agree with the former admiral,it is in MIG's interests to rectify the glitches.The 29 when it flies is a superb bird,no problem in IAF colours.
Secondly,the babus who nrgotiated the deal ,now most probably in cushy retirement,should be identified and hauled over the coals.There must be accountability.Any negligence on the IN's part too must also be examined for.

vasu raya · Post by **vasu raya** » 06 Aug 2017 06:34

Studying the sea: India prepares to dive deep with manned craft

A team of scientists at ESSO-National Institute of Ocean Technology (NIOT) is ready with a preliminary design for the country's first manned submersible that can accommodate a three-member crew. Expected to be ready in five years at a cost of Rs 500 crore, it will be able to take scientists about six kilometres deep into the ocean to look for precious metals and lesser known life forms.

They should get rid of the five year plan mentality...

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 06 Aug 2017 09:22

Wow Philip!!!

Vips · Post by **Vips** » 06 Aug 2017 18:08

Jets bought under the influence of Natasha can do no wrong. Russians committed no mistake and are all very innocent in offering a lemon, defective and third rated jet to India. It is the IAF and Defence ministry babu's fault in not negotiating properly. Buying the maintenance contract would have overnight changed a junk aircraft into super duper one

shaun · Post by **shaun** » 06 Aug 2017 20:11

Do our Universal Vertical launcher Module UVLM-8 support canister replacement on high seas ??

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 06 Aug 2017 20:46

From horses mouth IN Mig-29K did well in recent Malabar Exercise

US Navy delighted over MiG-29K's performance in Malabar Naval exercise

According to Rear Admiral William D. Byrne, Jr., the Commander of Carrier Strike Group 11 which operates around the USS Nimitz, "the MiG-29s that were flying off the Vikramaditya and the FA-18 Super Hornets flying off Nimitz made approaches to the opposite flight decks. They got up in the air and got to do some dog fighting as well."

Read more at: http://www.oneindia.com/india/us-navy-d ... 97980.html

chola · Post by **chola** » 06 Aug 2017 21:01

Austin wrote:From horses mouth IN Mig-29K did well in recent Malabar Exercise

US Navy delighted over MiG-29K's performance in Malabar Naval exercise

According to Rear Admiral William D. Byrne, Jr., the Commander of Carrier Strike Group 11 which operates around the USS Nimitz, "the MiG-29s that were flying off the Vikramaditya and the FA-18 Super Hornets flying off Nimitz made approaches to the opposite flight decks. They got up in the air and got to do some dog fighting as well."
Read more at: http://www.oneindia.com/india/us-navy-d ... 97980.html

To be honest, I have never read anything critical from the USN/USAF on their counterparts in exercises. Not considered diplomatic?

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 06 Aug 2017 21:02

shaun wrote:

Look how aesthetic and optimum usage of space such launchers provide. Compare it with cluttered design on P-15A and B. We are losing another 16 missiles between BrahMos VLS and Barak-8 VLS.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 06 Aug 2017 21:11

chola wrote:
Austin wrote:From horses mouth IN Mig-29K did well in recent Malabar Exercise

US Navy delighted over MiG-29K's performance in Malabar Naval exercise

Read more at: http://www.oneindia.com/india/us-navy-d ... 97980.html

To be honest, I have never read anything critical from the USN/USAF on their counterparts in exercises. Not considered diplomatic?

Vishnu Som was there during MALABAR ex and he was the one who broke the story on Mig-29K performance during ex

Professionally USAF has even commended IAF Bison in one of the earliest cope india ex

We had some nasty comment on MKI and IAF pilots during one of Red Flag , Nasty enough that IAF had to officially respond to it.

chola · Post by **chola** » 06 Aug 2017 21:37

Karthik S wrote:
shaun wrote:
Look how aesthetic and optimum usage of space such launchers provide. Compare it with cluttered design on P-15A and B. We are losing another 16 missiles between BrahMos VLS and Barak-8 VLS.

I don't think we have a choice in the Project 15 cases:

1) We don't really have an universal VL system since UVLM is geared towards Brahmos and perhaps variants of the same family,

2) We will never be able to pack the Israeli Barak into a common launch system that fire Russian missiles.

If we want anything like the Mark 41/48/57, a full-fledge mature Universal Vertical launch system with an endless varieties of missiles then we have to design not only the launcher but the missiles it can fire as well.

But even the Mark 41 doesn't usually handle large anti-ship missiles (though the Tomahawk has an AShM variant.) Harpoons are usually carried separatedly for targeting ships.

shaun · Post by **shaun** » 06 Aug 2017 21:43

Austin wrote:From horses mouth IN Mig-29K did well in recent Malabar Exercise

US Navy delighted over MiG-29K's performance in Malabar Naval exercise

According to Rear Admiral William D. Byrne, Jr., the Commander of Carrier Strike Group 11 which operates around the USS Nimitz, "the MiG-29s that were flying off the Vikramaditya and the FA-18 Super Hornets flying off Nimitz made approaches to the opposite flight decks. They got up in the air and got to do some dog fighting as well."
Read more at: http://www.oneindia.com/india/us-navy-d ... 97980.html

where have the Admiral explicitly mentioned or quoted "delighted" or "impressed" ???? and on what parameters ?? just for formation flying , approach over nimitz or for some dog fighting ??

I

negi · Post by **negi** » 06 Aug 2017 21:48

IN as an institution has same responsibilities as any Indian , when representing the country we have to fight with what we have , whining and criticism of our resources is welcome when directed inwards for improvement however whenever we go out we have to put-up a good show that principle applies to all such exercises .

chola · Post by **chola** » 06 Aug 2017 21:52

negi wrote:IN as an institution has same responsibilities as any Indian , when representing the country we have to fight with what we have , whining and criticism of our resources is welcome when directed inwards for improvement however whenever we go out we have to put-up a good show that principle applies to all such exercises .

Exactly. How we fight and exercise with it will be to the highest degree of professionalism.

That said, the IN has made its feelings about the MiG-29K pretty with the new tender for carrier aircraft.

The IN's repeated calls for the 29K to be "ruggedized" pretty much paint the aircraft as badly designed for carrier operations.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 06 Aug 2017 21:53

Karthik S wrote:
shaun wrote:
Look how aesthetic and optimum usage of space such launchers provide. Compare it with cluttered design on P-15A and B. We are losing another 16 missiles between BrahMos VLS and Barak-8 VLS.

Dont just compare design from x country with IN ships and wonder why this does not have more of missiles etc.

P-15B and the entire P-15 class ships have excellent sea keeping qualities and they have a balanced mixed of weapons with fuel for long range patrol they would have traded some of of the space for weapons for something like more and better comfort for a larger crew so that they can get more times in sea without necessarily having the luxury to have tanker to top it up when ever they need like USN could enjoy.

So comparision is pointless unless one has all the data on ships ( which would be classified any ways ) and the design goals of P-15 class of ship would be entirely different from a USN or Chinese or Russian or European ships of similar class and tonnage.

May be getting 32 Brahmos or 64 or 80 VLS Barak-8 might have been very cool for a forum board discussion but that would not be so cool for IN DND if it compromises its sea keeping or longer patrol times or comfort of crews.

Also note that these ships have something called Built for But Not With Capabilites in them , Unused Space they might add armament like a modern VLS PDMS during future upgrades.