Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

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Rudradev
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Rudradev » 03 Aug 2017 04:01

The drum beat in Washington is surely getting louder.

Goes without saying that it may all be posturing. But consider this: for an adversary like China, posturing is (at least) half the game. Beijing has elevated H&D and face-saving to the level of diplomatic hard currency... throwing a hissy fit because Trump spoke to the Taiwanese president, or because Botswana hosted the Dalai Lama, is how low they have set the bar for taking offence.

What is noteworthy is this: a low bar for taking offence also means a low *real* cost for giving offence, making it easier if one's objective is to deliberately give offence and show disrespect.

For example, if you say: don't raise your fist to strike me, or I'll hit you. That is a pretty high bar for taking offence on your part. Most people would think it reasonable. Also, they would feel comfortable with the idea that as long as they don't raise their fist to strike you, you will be cool.

Now supposing I deliberately *wanted* to offend you. If so, your statement has made offending you a high-risk proposition for me, no? I mean, If I wanted to provoke you I would have to walk to within striking distance of you and raise my fist. Then I am close enough to you to hit you, but I am also close enough to you for you to hit me.

But supposing you say: don't cast a shadow on me, or I'll hit you. That is a very low bar for taking offence on your part... so those who are easily intimidated may get very nervous about letting their shadows fall upon you.

But if I deliberately *wanted* to offend you I can do that with relatively low risk. I can stand far away from you, at any point between you and a light source. And just by letting my shadow fall on you, I am calling your bluff, deliberately insulting you in public, AND demonstrating that you can't do $hit about it. After all I could be ten metres away from you. You have to come running towards me to attack me. This gives me all the initiative I need to deal with you as preferred: run away, or find something to throw at you, or get into a defensive posture with plenty of time to meet your advance.

So: when a country puts on airs as "the Middle Kingdom" by flaunting a chip on its shoulder and daring others to knock it off, it is easy (and low-risk) to expose them as a Middle Donkey in reality.

This is what the USA has discovered. It is psyopping the cr@p out of the Cheenis by crossing all the "Led Lines of Lespect" by which the PRC has always demanded Washington treat them.

Here is an article by no less than Senator Ted Cruz, a Presidential Candidate and current Senator from Texas, in today's WaPo.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions ... 383f686a9a

However, simply defending against North Korean projectiles is insufficient. We must also deprive Pyongyang of the resources it directs to its nuclear and ballistic missile programs. Unfortunately, during the Obama administration, the White House was more interested in securing a climate deal with China than enforcing sanctions against Pyongyang.

President Trump is right when he says that China holds unique sway over North Korea. Beijing is effectively its only real trading partner, and the illicit network that finances North Korea’s atomic pursuits runs through Chinese banks and companies.

I applaud the Treasury Department for recently designating the Bank of Dandong as a primary money laundering concern; now is the time to take further action against other key violators that bankroll the North Korean mafia state, including Bank of China. U.N. reports, Justice Department documents and nongovernmental organization research have proved that Kim depends on the U.S. financial system to pay his elites, generals, security forces and soldiers. We must, through our financial regulations, compel U.S. banks with correspondent accounts linked to North Korean entities to begin mapping out the complex financial web of beneficial ownership that Pyongyang obscures with Chinese assistance.

UlanBatori
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby UlanBatori » 03 Aug 2017 04:08

Maybe the thing to do is to set a low bar for taking offence, but not threaten disproportionate retaliation.
Dont u dare turn ur back 2 me or I will f**t on u!
seems to convey the principle without escalating or losing credibility by not implementing threat.
The thing is, though, that the Gecko Minister threatened to KILL or CAPTURE Indian soldiers. That went over the top. Good that India did not respond in kind with a silly threat, the bugger came across like the Paki woman-beater UN rep in 2002 who threatened nuclear first strike if India blockaded Karachi. It is sad that India did not call that bluff but I guess more mature heads than mine were making policy.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby UlanBatori » 03 Aug 2017 04:09

All the more reason why Indians should quietly and without official govt action, boycott all Chinese goods. Until further notice.

SaiK
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby SaiK » 03 Aug 2017 04:28

UlanBatori wrote:All the more reason why Indians should quietly and without official govt action, boycott all Chinese goods. Until further notice.

we have to run a signature pledge campaign., still no guarantee we can satisfy these due to a plethora of Chinese products and non-availability of others.

UlanBatori
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby UlanBatori » 03 Aug 2017 04:30

No signature campaigns & petitions pls. Just Post-Action Reports. This should be strictly individual preference. I have notched up $90. More when I actually do it. Intentions don't count, only action.

chanakyaa
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby chanakyaa » 03 Aug 2017 04:49

This is the time when you need gau-rakshak vigilantes to focus their attention from people carrying gau in the truck to trucks and people carrying and selling Cheeni products!! Where is the Shivsena cabal??

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Liu » 03 Aug 2017 06:43

i do think that a limited war is coming,unless india reteats .


yesterday, eithr CCtv or peopledaily had a statement .

that is almost the Ultimatum,as i understand.

and, china transported lots of blood to Lhasa last weak.

Manish_Sharma
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Manish_Sharma » 03 Aug 2017 06:47

UlanBatori wrote:All the more reason why Indians should quietly and without official govt action, boycott all Chinese goods. Until further notice.


I have written from several different accounts to Baba Ramdev on this issue, as a statement or advertisement from Patanjali would compound the effect.

Secondly I have made presentation to:

Dr. Subhash Chandra Zee
Sudheer Chaudhary Zee
Rajat Sharma IndiaTV

Tried Republic TV too here:
http://www.republicworld.com/contact-us

Hope more BRFites write to have ThermoNuclear effect. :twisted:

UlanBatori
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby UlanBatori » 03 Aug 2017 06:58

May your goats eat the Red Book of Mao ze Dung.

Shankas
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Shankas » 03 Aug 2017 07:01

Liu wrote:i do think that a limited war is coming,unless india reteats .


yesterday, eithr CCtv or peopledaily had a statement .

that is almost the Ultimatum,as i understand.

and, china transported lots of blood to Lhasa last weak.


Meanwhile on the indian side at Dokla plateau...

Image

Shardul
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Shardul » 03 Aug 2017 07:15

:twisted: "
Liu wrote:i do think that a limited war is coming,unless india reteats .

yesterday, eithr CCtv or peopledaily had a statement .

that is almost the Ultimatum,as i understand.

and, china transported lots of blood to Lhasa last weak.
"
Let it come. It will further chip away the cosmetic behind the fancy dress and high tech toys in the hand of PLA. Also no need to send blood to Lhasa . You already have the local Tibetan population there whose blood is being sucked for years.PLA don't have the courage for direct confrontation else they might not have been operating via proxy's in the neighborhood / across the world. They can hide behind terrorist like Masood Azhar and Sayed Sallauddin / but will never come out openly in direct physical contact. Just to remind in case forgotten the heavy deployment of American troops in Korean peninsula/ in Japan and Phillipins. Any redeployment from eastern china to western border is not possible now. Most of the troops are heavenly commited to protect protect eastern flank.

UlanBatori
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby UlanBatori » 03 Aug 2017 07:15

del
Last edited by UlanBatori on 03 Aug 2017 07:16, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby UlanBatori » 03 Aug 2017 07:16

Shankas wrote:Meanwhile on the indian side at Dokla plateau...

Appukutty's historic chai-kada Dosa-Kalam (The dosa pot) which is the root of the Doklam misnomer.

ArjunPandit
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby ArjunPandit » 03 Aug 2017 07:17

Liu wrote:i do think that a limited war is coming,unless india reteats .


yesterday, eithr CCtv or peopledaily had a statement .

that is almost the Ultimatum,as i understand.

and, china transported lots of blood to Lhasa last weak.


They are gonna need lot of it

UlanBatori
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby UlanBatori » 03 Aug 2017 07:26

That's to care for the PLA Political Commissars who are in for a beating by the NorthDharmasala monks.
Last edited by UlanBatori on 03 Aug 2017 07:27, edited 1 time in total.

Shardul
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Shardul » 03 Aug 2017 07:27

In fact few years back I remember one of my friends wife telling us during dinner "Gas mask being distributed in her native village and people being prepaired against immenent attack from Americans". All laughing at the gimmicks being employed to generate some kind of ear hysteria just to divert people's attention.

shiv
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby shiv » 03 Aug 2017 07:47

Liu wrote:i do think that a limited war is coming,.

How do you know it will be limited? It takes 2 sides to limit a war and you can send a message to all middle aged and elderly Chinese parents that their only sons' blood is going to be spilled in an unlimited way 1000 km from Lhasa and 3000 km from home. A lot of young men will not come home.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Singha » 03 Aug 2017 08:01

^^ while the ccp and army elites sons take it easy in peking, sydney, vancouver , SFO and NYC.

UlanBatori
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby UlanBatori » 03 Aug 2017 08:05

Let's not forget the Red Lips Massage Parlor in LaHore where they can enjoy Chinese women along with Pakistani men.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby UlanBatori » 03 Aug 2017 08:06

Let's not forget the Red Lips Massage Parlor in LaHore where they can enjoy watching Chinese women servicing Pakistani men, and make more money off that too.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby UlanBatori » 03 Aug 2017 08:07

del Top Secret

UlanBatori
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby UlanBatori » 03 Aug 2017 08:13

While Chinese Communist Generals rant and fume, here is Indian Prime Minister's "Mann ki Baat": just came in, not in 2015 but today:

Technology can play a big role in accurate weather forecast and preparedness. The Indian Army, Navy and Air Force are helping in a big way to save people hit by weather extremes.
Successful rollout of GST is a case study, a shining example of cooperative federalism.
The Quit Bhutan India Movement is an important milestone in history. {And hysterics at the panic of the yeller-bellied cowardly PLA.}
Let us celebrate 15 August 2017 as Sankalp Parva.
Let us make India free from Communist Chinese terrorism and crooks.
Festivals light the lamp of prosperity in the homes of the poor {But we won't be buying chinese fake lights and crackers and toys made by the PLA slave camps}

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Kashi » 03 Aug 2017 08:19

UlanBatori wrote:Let us make India free from Communist Chinese terrorism and crooks.


Did he actually say that?

schinnas
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby schinnas » 03 Aug 2017 08:19

Since China is disadvantaged in most border areas compared to India, the chances of them using their rocket force on our ground and satellite targets is high.

I think Idev has a point and it needs to be fully gamed. US can provide substantial intelligence on these areas of they chose to.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Kashi » 03 Aug 2017 08:22

Liu wrote:i do think that a limited war is coming...


Winter is coming....

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby BajKhedawal » 03 Aug 2017 08:22

Whats with dick-tators and fancy dress costumes, as far as i know eleven jinns is not a serving gent and yet yesterday he wore some camouflage costume and rode a open jeep with his minions army parading behind.

Image

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Pulikeshi » 03 Aug 2017 08:24

^^^It looks like a poster from a bad Hollywood B-grade movie! Have these guys even fought anyone? Seems all the genelals are arm chair onlee!
Not sure if anyone understands Chinese drill commands - Eleven kept repeating two commands to which the troops responded... anyone know what?
Is there a Little Kim and Daddy Kim poster somewhere ala 'new chick'? :D

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby schinnas » 03 Aug 2017 08:30

We don't yet have an ASAT weapon or even a tech demonstrator.

Hope Kali is operationalized soon enough.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby shiv » 03 Aug 2017 08:35

schinnas wrote:Since China is disadvantaged in most border areas compared to India, the chances of them using their rocket force on our ground and satellite targets is high.

I think Idev has a point and it needs to be fully gamed. US can provide substantial intelligence on these areas of they chose to.

We have to be careful about the US.

The US's national interest is to make the Chinese weaker by keeping them in constant conflict. The relative peace of the last few decades can be upset if they play the game to allow China to take some Indian territory - after which India and China will be fighting for a long long time and China's leputation will suffer and it's forces will have to concentrate on the western border with India.

We are in this on our own..

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby shiv » 03 Aug 2017 08:39

Pulikeshi wrote:^^^It looks like a poster from a bad Hollywood B-grade movie!

I agree.

I think a civilian leader who has never served in the armed forces is, in a way insulting the armed forces by strutting about in uniform. Does a leader have to wear a military uniform for the armed forces to show allegiance and loyalty? Or is Eleven giving out a weird signal that by wearing fatigues he is as much part of the PLA and any general?

Completely weird..

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby UlanBatori » 03 Aug 2017 08:40

BajKhedawal wrote:eleven jinns yesterday wore some camouflage costume and rode a open jeep with his minions army parading behind.

If I were he I would not only get into camo uniform I would head for my cave in Mongolia. Fear is writ large on his fat mug. The US Pacific fleet is doing its last checks on systems. Japan is checking their combat planes. British warships have missiles trained on the South China North Indonesia Sea. Hainan is in the cross-hairs of several B-2 squadrons.

And the Bhutanese traffic polis and rural women with frying pans are losing patience with the stupid Red Chinese intruders.

yes indeed, war is coming and the limited brain of Eleven can't figure out how everything went wong wei.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Singha » 03 Aug 2017 08:45

i have searched high and low for intimidating tyrants powerplay but the gold standard continues to remain Kim and his artillery demos.
the earth trembles at his wrath ...


Rudradev
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Rudradev » 03 Aug 2017 09:01

Waste of ammo. Also, overcompensation for the fact that only a tiny % of his artillery pieces actually have Seoul or other ROK cities within range.

This naatak is convenient because it lets KJU, ROK, US and PRC all pretend that fear of NoKo arty is the reason a regime-change war would be irresponsible to attempt. Truth is KJU could be toppled by invasion but nobody wants to put up the stakes required to seize control of the aftermath. NoKo is a useful buffer. KJU gone means US and PRC troops facing off across a common land border (whether at 38th parallel or Yalu R or somewhere in between).

And there is nothing the US fears more than getting into a land war in Asia. And nothing the Chinese fear more than having the PLA's mettle openly tested in an all-out war scenario they can't stage-manage or bluster their way out of. So everyone just pretends to be terrified of Dear Leader's fireworks displays, lol.
Last edited by Rudradev on 03 Aug 2017 09:03, edited 1 time in total.

suryag
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby suryag » 03 Aug 2017 09:02

Do they want to resemble Mao by wearing those military fatigues

Pulikeshi
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Pulikeshi » 03 Aug 2017 09:14

shiv wrote:
Liu wrote:i do think that a limited war is coming,.

How do you know it will be limited?


Good call!
Damned if you do and damed if you don't! :P
Last time a limited war made India into a Nuclear power today :rotfl:
Boy then Chine too like 'new chick' must hate that pigeon schemer
It is hald fitting a democrazy with a battle hardened army, with Curzon+ strategy!
Some send these folks a gift of Thucydides work.... same war different rising/risen power
If you limted win - Persia (read the sole soup power wins), if you don't Macedonia (read reinvented India) wins...
Either way China is in lose loose! Or is it loose lose? :mrgreen:

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby TKiran » 03 Aug 2017 09:30

. After China's tough posture on Doka La border row, India calls for peace, tranquility in region - MEA Gopal Bagle


Yeh bahoot naa insafee. When they took 52 days to prepare 15 page statement, this yindoo bania says peace peace....

This kinda response is what makes the Han very angry (I face this all the time in my house, my wife is the Han). When they are interested in provoking a strong response, we banias dhoti shiver. Main is casual approach ka khandan karta hoon, kadee ninda karta hoon.....

Bramha chellaney @Chellaney

Will India's external affairs ministry end its reticence on the standoff and rebut China's 15-page statement by laying bare the full facts?

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby abhik » 03 Aug 2017 09:55

Pulikeshi wrote:^^^It looks like a poster from a bad Hollywood B-grade movie! Have these guys even fought anyone? Seems all the genelals are arm chair onlee!
Not sure if anyone understands Chinese drill commands - Eleven kept repeating two commands to which the troops responded... anyone know what?
Is there a Little Kim and Daddy Kim poster somewhere ala 'new chick'? :D

I kept imagining he asks "Who's your daddy?" And the troops respond with "You are, dear Chailman!"

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby shiv » 03 Aug 2017 09:57

Although I am tempted, I don't want to start a new thread for this..

I would like to start a purely theoretical discussion on the political effects in China if 4 nuclear bombs went off in Beijing - ensuring much loss of life and definite destruction of CPC symbols like the great hall of the people. Let us assume for the sake of ease of discussion and to prevent digression of subject that the nuclear bombs were set off by Martians who promptly vanished to the far side of Alpha Centauri

With the center and the seat of power in Beijing in disarray (assume all leaders are alive and safe, if shaken and stirred a bit but incommunicado for a short while) what is the level of autonomy of the provinces. who takes second rung decisions in China?

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby VKumar » 03 Aug 2017 10:03

What is future economic value of a war for China? Over next 50 years? TSP of course will be finished.

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Re: Managing Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Postby Singha » 03 Aug 2017 10:07

each province has leaders appointed by peking

but the key players are the mayors of the top10 cities which are like our union territories and control massive part of the economy. the GDP of the top10 cities are akin to medium sized countries so they are used to power and operating at scale.

many of these mayors go on to top posts in the high council after delivering results at UT level. so these mayors and regional leaders can run the show until the shaken and stirred leaders are ok.

its fairly resilient system imo just like any large country. one or two cities going under will not collapse the country...infact look at a minnow like syria - set upon by wolves from all sides but still fighting and functioning.

there is no personality cult in cheen with a supreme leader who takes all operational decisions unlike north korea. the CCP makes sure to have a pipeline of capable 2nd rung leaders groomed and ready.


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