Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

Kati · Post by **Kati** » 13 Aug 2017 19:54

Doklam standoff: Amid heightened tension, Indian insulted at Shanghai airport

https://www.newsbytesapp.com/timeline/W ... n-citizens

BSR Murthy · Post by **BSR Murthy** » 13 Aug 2017 19:57

[quote="Singha"]tibet is a 1500km wide flat board with not a lot of places to hide . to get the point of biting deep into us, all of chinese assets have to come out on this board and maintain a moving supply line to the mainland. all within indian surveillance and strike capabilities. a chain can be broken or disrupted at any point in its long length. its a hard problem for any general staff. a single division needs 100s of tons of supplies daily else it will be combat ineffective and grind to a halt. if supplies are piled up close to the front before escalating, loses the element of suprise, our jaguars will have a field day mauling these depots.

secondly as the russians saw in afpak , the mechanized steppe/desert forces are vulnerable in the mountains and only a massive air dominance can somewhat reduce risk , hard to enforce over the himalaya vs india.

there are no other places where they can really bit into our flesh unless they can get Pakis to launch a war - this i am 101% sure the Pakis will deftly not agree to - they are not about to risk blood and treasure for some mythical promise of loot and plunder. if we isolate and hammer them , they could lose a lot at least cost to their chinese masters. even a lapdog knows when its time to get off and slink under the sofa .

thats noko and tsp trying to hide if usa and india get on their case properly. note the strong well muscled backside and wheat fed brown tail of our arabi biraders.

101+
The picture is priceless Singha ji!

Kati · Post by **Kati** » 13 Aug 2017 19:58

China is trying to undercut all other air carriers by offering lower price, which is attracting a lot of desi passengers. However, I would say that exercise caution, or if possible avoid all Chinese carriers. Check their customer service ratings online to get an idea. ...
Flew by Air China several times in the past, and every time there was an issue. There is no way to reach the customer service dept (the toll-free number never gets answered). Midway through the journey they bump off passengers citing flight cancellations (which that may be the case, they are doubly courteous to gora passengers, which leaving desi flyers high and dry).

jagga · Post by **jagga** » 13 Aug 2017 20:16

kancha wrote:Folks, posted another blog on the quality of the PLA soldiers. This one is about an incident in South Sudan where the PLA peacekeepers ran away from their posts, abandoning their weapons upon coming under fire.
In the end, it was the Indian Peacekeepers from the Kumaon Regiment that restored the situation!

Blog Link

Twitter Link

BBC Newsnight had done a small documentary. Chinese left these poor lady's, in documentary, to be raped and murdered

jagga · Post by **jagga** » 13 Aug 2017 20:29

Chinease Peacekeepers Did Nothing As South Sudanese Soldiers Raped Women

"On July 17, two armed soldiers in uniform dragged away a woman who was less than a few hundred meters (yards) from the U.N. camp's western gate while armed peacekeepers on foot, in an armored vehicle and in a watchtower looked on. One witness estimated that 30 peacekeepers from Nepalese and Chinese battalions saw the incident."
" 'They were seeing it. Everyone was seeing it,' he said. 'The woman was seriously screaming, quarreling and crying also, but there was no help. She was crying for help.'"

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 13 Aug 2017 20:33

One must not read too much into the incident and extrapolating such act to the whole Chinese army. That is a risky thing to do and lead to a sense of false security.

We must be prepared to deal with them on the assumption that the Chinese are capable soldiers and fight for what they think is theirs.

TKiran · Post by **TKiran** » 13 Aug 2017 20:39

SSridhar wrote:

Since the 50s, China has considered India as an arch enemy and has been condescending about us.

China is confident that it can handle the USA and Japan once India is taken care of.

SS sir, I think the Han in their over enthusiasm to establish their superiority over other yellow races never considered India as their rival. They were over obsessed with Japanese, still they consider Japanese as their rival though they were able to subjugate them with their economy. They still think of indians as Somalis who need bread. That is the reason for their hubris and condescension. Otherwise how can you explain their condescension towards India. There was no "string of pearls" strategy also, it was their natural tendency of creepy behaviour for which some learned analysts gave a name "string of pearls" in order to explain the threat of Han China, but when I asked some Han who are interested in strategic affairs, they never had India as a threat. Whatever little apprehension they had about India was that India could reach Lhasa much easier than the Han PLA, so they wanted to take Tawang desperately and they still want Tawang. But as far as the memory that India could be a formidable foe was erased in 1962.

Also you said they will take care of Japan and USA after India is subjugated. Here also I have a different opinion. After 2008, the have concluded that they have subjugated Japan and the remaining foe is only one, ie USA. They never considered India as any power more than Philippines at all.

That would also explain the hyperbole we see in gobartimes. Except Hu Jintao (they conveniently forgot about Tibet till Hu Jintao made the claim for Tawang, even though PLA voluntarily vacated Tawang in 1962, but Hu Jintao understood that Tawang is the strategically important to deny India any threat to Tibet, in case), no other chairman really know what is the threat that India can pose to China in the Tibet autonomous region. Eleven is totally dismissive of India in TAR or he considers India as a threat or even a rival or even anything more significant than Philippines. To explain more accurately, they think that all Indians are under nutritioned, half-naked fakirs like MK Gandhi who would readily show their cheak to slap. The Indians are cowardly to behave like that by showing their cheak and say we are not for war, whereas they are really coward but good poor people. Their concern is really honest that they don't want to hurt Indians. That's the reason why gobartimes is asking us to back off, as the Han may end up beating the undernourished Indians. When you understand the Han behaviour like this, then we can explain everything that is happening in Doka Lam from Han point of view.

Amoghvarsha · Post by **Amoghvarsha** » 13 Aug 2017 21:12

Singha wrote:
Amoghvarsha wrote:
Heard people talk about SY 300 MLRS which have 300km range.
bigger the range more costly and fat the MLRS becomes and needs some form of precision guidance and cannot be fired in a swarm like the cheap Grads. you are in effect talking of a pralay or atacms type tactical strike missile at that range not a "true" MLRS.

SY 300 are gps guided.I dont undrstand what do you mean by true mlrs.

vasu raya · Post by **vasu raya** » 13 Aug 2017 21:26

There is the incident of a Russian Special forces operative calling a airstrike on himself when surrounded by ISIS militants, it was suicide but ensured higher enemy casualties. That incident raised the Russian forces image, which is what the Chinese might copy for a small skirmish and claim victory. Except here it may not be the Chinese 'special forces' operatives calling in for support when surrounded by Indian forces but the rocket forces commander or higher chain of command making the decision anyways, the story that will be told is of Chinese love for motherland

And, if TSP cannot be counted in the moment of crisis, can it be counted to protect CPEC? the Chinese would want to know

williams · Post by **williams** » 13 Aug 2017 21:29

We need to achieve air superiority over Tibetan air space with in the first 24 hours. While MKI and Mirage 2000 can take care of their fighters. We should use Jags to destroy their radar coverage and SAM threats. After that we should pound the PLA with PGMs before even IA visits them. Key strategy on our side should be to get IAF and IN involved the minute the first bullet is fired.

vasu raya · Post by **vasu raya** » 13 Aug 2017 21:30

if we manage to integrate LORROS type sensor with anti aircraft guns, the sensor is placed on a watch tower, can subsonic CMs be targeted? this is similar to Jugaad where BSF deployed machine guns on remotely operated turn tables to check infiltration.

wonder what kind of impact it can have on a EMP warhead, and no knowledge if they have such warheads and if so their radio destruction range

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 13 Aug 2017 21:35

vasu raya wrote:There is the incident of a Russian Special forces operative calling a airstrike on himself when surrounded by ISIS militants, it was suicide but ensured higher enemy casualties. That incident raised the Russian forces image, which is what the Chinese might copy for a small skirmish and claim victory.

Similar story of Indian spl forces in Sri Lanka. Story not well known.
http://www.amazon.in/Mission-Overseas-D ... gh+mission

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 13 Aug 2017 21:39

TKiran wrote: To explain more accurately, they think that all Indians are under nutritioned, half-naked fakirs like MK Gandhi who would readily show their cheak to slap. The Indians are cowardly to behave like that by showing their cheak and say we are not for war, whereas they are really coward but good poor people. Their concern is really honest that they don't want to hurt Indians. That's the reason why gobartimes is asking us to back off, as the Han may end up beating the undernourished Indians. When you understand the Han behaviour like this, then we can explain everything that is happening in Doka Lam from Han point of view.

Why would the Chinese feel sorry for Indians and not want to beat them up? What has changed? Why don't they feel sorry for undernutritioned Indians and support them about Masood Azhar?

The Chinese have no sympathy for the underdog. And if you say they are the cowards - that would also explain the behaviour. Going into Bhutan rather than India and then crying

nam · Post by **nam** » 13 Aug 2017 22:07

TKiran wrote: To explain more accurately, they think that all Indians are under nutritioned, half-naked fakirs like MK Gandhi who would readily show their cheak to slap. The Indians are cowardly to behave like that by showing their cheak and say we are not for war, whereas they are really coward but good poor people. Their concern is really honest that they don't want to hurt Indians. That's the reason why gobartimes is asking us to back off, as the Han may end up beating the undernourished Indians. When you understand the Han behaviour like this, then we can explain everything that is happening in Doka Lam from Han point of view.

This is a case of patience been considered weakness. One of the reason is probably the way we let Pakis get away every time they do a terror attack and in couple of months run off to do a peace talks. If we had publicly and regularly whip Paki a**, I doubt this perception would existing . This has probably led to a thinking that arming Pakis with missiles and nukes would keep Indians busy.

But then we can remove this misconception.

All the Chinis have to do as they promised. Send the TFTA Commie Army to dislodge us... we will be very forth coming to remove any mis-understanding.

srin · Post by **srin** » 13 Aug 2017 22:26

Singha wrote:tibet is a 1500km wide flat board with not a lot of places to hide . to get the point of biting deep into us, all of chinese assets have to come out on this board and maintain a moving supply line to the mainland. all within indian surveillance and strike capabilities. a chain can be broken or disrupted at any point in its long length. its a hard problem for any general staff. a single division needs 100s of tons of supplies daily else it will be combat ineffective and grind to a halt. if supplies are piled up close to the front before escalating, loses the element of suprise, our jaguars will have a field day mauling these depots.

You don't even need air dominance. I've been to Nathu La (from Gangtok via Changu lake). It's a winding and narrow road with sheer drop on one side, and crossing a few bridges. In a defensive battle, all we have to do is to destroy it every 100m or so and it is pretty much impassable. I don't think other roads will be much better. No bridge laying equipment is going to cross over, nor can the JCBs. In an offensive battle, once we get to the flatter plateau, we can take advantage of apparently nice roads that Chinese have built for our mobility

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 13 Aug 2017 22:27

in battle of ardenne the germans ran out petrol. the allied airpower did the rest once the weather cleared up.

Suresh S · Post by **Suresh S** » 13 Aug 2017 22:37

Request to mods please leave these comments if u can on this thread they are very relevant.

Here is my own first hand experience with chinese and koreans over the last 25 years in US.

very little interaction and low numbers in the first 5-10 yrs. Increasing nos and lot of interaction over the last 15-20 yrs.
I was removed from one hospital with no other reason except that I was an Indian by a chinese CEO. Rough interactions with chinese anesthetists over many yrs, only reason I am Indian and do not take no shit from these people.

Even the people that u help train can not be trusted(not all of course there are good ones). Every opportunity they try to sink u.
Chinese docs never sent a single pt in 10 yrs. Only earthly reason I am Indian.

Not just chinese but interactions with Koreans both north and south generally negative . koreans will help the chinese but not Indians
Japanese on the other hand are very helpful to Indians though my personal experience was limited but very positive.

Shankk · Post by **Shankk** » 13 Aug 2017 22:38

DrRatnadip wrote:
kancha wrote:Folks, posted another blog on the quality of the PLA soldiers. This one is about an incident in South Sudan where the PLA peacekeepers ran away from their posts, abandoning their weapons upon coming under fire.
In the end, it was the Indian Peacekeepers from the Kumaon Regiment that restored the situation!

Blog Link

Twitter Link
This shows real nature of chini soldiers.. Eleven is well aware of this fact hence only fighting war with gober times..Thanks for posting sir..

Don't be fooled by the reports. Not everything is what it seems. Now the people who really matter i.e. Indian strategists and armed forces will not take this at face value and will be ever vigilant. For the sake of us arm chair generals, I strongly believe that PLA is a very professional and well trained force and will be very difficult to beat in case of one on one war for any country. Multiple fronts is a different scenario.

Regarding the above reports, first of all we don't even know the authenticity of what is reported there. If those reports are indeed accurate, my theory is those were not real PLA soldiers. They were ordinary people picked up probably from prisons or other such places to be sent on UN missions simply to fulfill China's obligations to UN. They don't want to use real boot on the ground for missions like that and put PLA core in danger.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 13 Aug 2017 22:46

>>my theory is those were not real PLA soldiers. They were ordinary people picked up probably from prisons or other such places to be sent on UN missions simply to fulfill China's obligations to UN.

why are you so eager to give them a free pass without any proof of them being indentured criminals sent to serve? atleast do some r&d on which units of PLA or military police are sent for UN missions. generally no country sends 2nd string units to UN missions, esp when they are on the 'peaceful rise' and 'next superpawa' train.

none are extrapolating once incident into a whole army and this particular incident is probably a command failure and lack of initiative by the smaller officers. would be interesting to know how much freedom the JCOs, Lts and Majors are given in PLA - these are the men who win wars.

TKiran · Post by **TKiran** » 13 Aug 2017 22:48

shiv wrote: Why would the Chinese feel sorry for Indians and not want to beat them up? Because they feel sorry for Indians they don't want to beat them up What has changed? There is nothing that has changed. This has been their attitude for ever towards indians. Why don't they feel sorry for undernutritioned Indians and support them about Masood Azhar? Masood Azhar is their Munna's boy, and how dare these under nutritioned fellows "thang karre lere apunke munneko, chal jaa phut nikalle..." is the attitude of Hans. You may also call Han as bullies, or Mafia donsi, it doesn't bother them

The Chinese have no sympathy for the underdog. Thats the very reason they want to slap the underdog. And if you say they are the cowards - that would also explain the behaviour. I never said the Han are cowards. India is a blind spot for HHan.They have been cruising along very well, but when they were trying to change lane, Indians have started honking, now they are raged. Going Bhutan rather than India and then crying. Going to Bhutan is like changing lane for them, it was not intended to provoke India, but when the Indians started honking and also pushing on the gas and not allow to change the lane, they are raged.

DrRatnadip · Post by **DrRatnadip** » 13 Aug 2017 23:04

Shankk wrote:
DrRatnadip wrote: This shows real nature of chini soldiers.. Eleven is well aware of this fact hence only fighting war with gober times..Thanks for posting sir..
Don't be fooled by the reports. Not everything is what it seems. Now the people who really matter i.e. Indian strategists and armed forces will not take this at face value and will be ever vigilant. For the sake of us arm chair generals, I strongly believe that PLA is a very professional and well trained force and will be very difficult to beat in case of one on one war for any country. Multiple fronts is a different scenario
Regarding the above reports, first of all we don't even know the authenticity of what is reported there. If those reports are indeed accurate, my theory is those were not real PLA soldiers. They were ordinary people picked up probably from prisons or other such places to be sent on UN missions simply to fulfill China's obligations to UN. They don't want to use real boot on the ground for missions like that and put PLA core in danger.

Since I am writing this from my made in china phone with broken screen, I have zero faith left on cheeni maal and cheeni army..

.. And also I dont expect one imp member of P5 / would be number one superpower who wants to expand military and economic ties in Afreeka to send criminals or yellow abduls on UN mission..

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 13 Aug 2017 23:18

UlanBatori wrote:Dhoti-Shiver (DS-1313):

Doklam is a diversion. The real mischief is elsewhere (if I know where I would post it). Suggestions: South of Andaman/ Nicobar. Lakshadweep. Maladweep. North Myanmar border with India.
Seychelles? Mauritius? South Nicobar is most likely: equal access issues from mainland India and from South Myanmar where lizard has strength. Attack completely directed at Indian NAVY, not IAF or IA. Objective: Debilitate capability to hit Gwadar or block Malacca Straits - of help Taiwan or Vietnam.

Makes total sense. If we know China cannot win in the Himalayas, then China knows it too. So the distraction theory is quite plausible. India must have prepared for this as well.

DrRatnadip · Post by **DrRatnadip** » 13 Aug 2017 23:34

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=eQ_l_hAJ2p0

US Anchor making fun of CHINA ( INDIA - CHINA border standoff )
(Sorry if repost)

BSR Murthy · Post by **BSR Murthy** » 14 Aug 2017 00:34

TKiran wrote:
shiv wrote: Why would the Chinese feel sorry for Indians and not want to beat them up? Because they feel sorry for Indians they don't want to beat them up What has changed? There is nothing that has changed. This has been their attitude for ever towards indians. Why don't they feel sorry for undernutritioned Indians and support them about Masood Azhar? Masood Azhar is their Munna's boy, and how dare these under nutritioned fellows "thang karre lere apunke munneko, chal jaa phut nikalle..." is the attitude of Hans. You may also call Han as bullies, or Mafia donsi, it doesn't bother them

The Chinese have no sympathy for the underdog. Thats the very reason they want to slap the underdog. And if you say they are the cowards - that would also explain the behaviour. I never said the Han are cowards. India is a blind spot for HHan.They have been cruising along very well, but when they were trying to change lane, Indians have started honking, now they are raged. Going Bhutan rather than India and then crying. Going to Bhutan is like changing lane for them, it was not intended to provoke India, but when the Indians started honking and also pushing on the gas and not allow to change the lane, they are raged.

Contradictory and illogical.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 14 Aug 2017 01:29

The nearest flat area available for massing high number of 155 Arty with mobility in mind is about 50 km from Dokalam Plateau. This is not to say that such pieces could not be assembled nearer but they will not be mobile placed in narrow valleys further south.

Terrain map. Looking towards Doklam from Tibet

Shankk · Post by **Shankk** » 14 Aug 2017 02:36

Singha wrote:why are you so eager to give them a free pass without any proof of them being indentured criminals sent to serve? atleast do some r&d on which units of PLA or military police are sent for UN missions. generally no country sends 2nd string units to UN missions, esp when they are on the 'peaceful rise' and 'next superpawa' train.

Singha ji, no need to get so excited and I have no reason to give them a free pass. I have had my share of cursing them for using pakisatan and every other means to subdue India. My only reason was to put it out there so that even on an online forum we are not complacent. As to the veracity of what I said, it was made clear, it is just a theory. Now I cannot prove that I am right but you cannot prove that I am wrong either. Finally we are talking about people who adulterate all sorts of things including food and even baby food. This kind of cheating is nothing for them.

Shanmukh · Post by **Shanmukh** » 14 Aug 2017 02:37

Chinese start building a bridge near LAC in Ladakh. Looks like they want to move the hotspot elsewhere. Do they have local superiority in this sector in a possible shooting war?

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/indi ... 25376.html

eklavya · Post by **eklavya** » 14 Aug 2017 02:55

shiv wrote:The Chinese have no sympathy for the underdog.

I believe they do have a sauce for it though, and as an animal lover, I am simply appalled.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 14 Aug 2017 02:59

Is retaking Aksai Chin part of India's plan at all? Someone needs to elucidate this.
I know that the Tibeteans in India have been unfurling Indian and Tibetean flags at the banks of the Pagong Tso.

ashish raval · Post by **ashish raval** » 14 Aug 2017 03:06

Shanmukh wrote:Chinese start building a bridge near LAC in Ladakh. Looks like they want to move the hotspot elsewhere. Do they have local superiority in this sector in a possible shooting war?

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/indi ... 25376.html

Instead of moaning why don't we do the same elsewhere and then raise it when enemies object!!

SriKumar · Post by **SriKumar** » 14 Aug 2017 03:17

SwamyG wrote:
UlanBatori wrote:Dhoti-Shiver (DS-1313):

Doklam is a diversion. The real mischief is elsewhere (if I know where I would post it). Suggestions: South of Andaman/ Nicobar. Lakshadweep. Maladweep. North Myanmar border with India.
Seychelles? Mauritius? South Nicobar is most likely: equal access issues from mainland India and from South Myanmar where lizard has strength. Attack completely directed at Indian NAVY, not IAF or IA. Objective: Debilitate capability to hit Gwadar or block Malacca Straits - of help Taiwan or Vietnam.
Makes total sense. If we know China cannot win in the Himalayas, ......

I doubt it. No reason to give more credit to the Chinese planners than is necessary. If indeed Doka La was feint for something else, they have spent a remarkable amount of time hemming and hawing about it. It is more than 2 months now....and nothing has happened. The Chinese strategists are not super-minds that all outcomes of a move are known to them ahead of time. In this case, I do think that they were surprised by Indian troops blocking their construction activity. I dont think they expected it and are hurriedly looking at options to get out of this jam. If they actually expected India to stop them, their reaction to it does seem un-prepared and haphazard.

Now that they are in a jam however, one can expect them to look for pressure points everywhere (as ulanbatori listed) and try to convert this crisis for them into an opportunity.

*: The only possibility of Doka La being a feint is that US-NoKo stuff started many months ago and was threatening to get hotter. They started Doka La after that (mid-May?), so one could argue this. But then, they had to be sure that India would put troops into Bhutan/China disputed area. This is unprecedented for India and so I dont think could have been sure of the response.

Rishirishi · Post by **Rishirishi** » 14 Aug 2017 03:33

williams wrote:We need to achieve air superiority over Tibetan air space with in the first 24 hours. While MKI and Mirage 2000 can take care of their fighters. We should use Jags to destroy their radar coverage and SAM threats. After that we should pound the PLA with PGMs before even IA visits them. Key strategy on our side should be to get IAF and IN involved the minute the first bullet is fired.

Air superiority is not really required. all you have to do is to take out critical parts of the 1500 km supply roads. China will have to create an airbridge to supply the troops.

The greatest threat does not come from Indian armed forces, but from economical warfare. Neither EU, Russia, Japan are particularly happy with the rise of China. In reality they are looking for an excuse to stop chinease growth.

nam · Post by **nam** » 14 Aug 2017 04:00

The chinis have built a railway from Lhasa to shigaste which has 116 bridges!

Shigaste is the second biggest city in Tibet and is nearer to nathu la.

Took them four years for a 250 km line!

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 14 Aug 2017 06:33

They are trying to extend that railway line to Nepal

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 14 Aug 2017 06:34

One thing that I want to say here:

China must NOT get out of this unscathed. They have to pay a price for this.
If India lets them get out of this, this will only escalate in the future, when they are better prepared. And this will keep on recurring.

China is vulnerable in Tibet, they must be taught a lesson.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 14 Aug 2017 07:41

IMO, India should draw the straight line from north-east corner of Sikkim to northwest corner of Bhutan (per Bhutanese claim) and declare everything south of that a no-entry zone. Cut the roads, block reinforcements.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 14 Aug 2017 07:44

Also, a campaign to systematically take down roads, bridges and any other constructions in the disputed territories. This may come close to the much-dissed Forward Policy...

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 14 Aug 2017 07:47

Heavy rain and flood have cut road and rail to NE in many places

Time for dlagon lord to act

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 14 Aug 2017 07:55

UlanBatori wrote:IMO, India should draw the straight line from north-east corner of Sikkim to northwest corner of Bhutan (per Bhutanese claim) and declare everything south of that a no-entry zone. Cut the roads, block reinforcements.

Chumbi Valley is Indian at anytime the Indians want. The Chinese can graze some sacrificial lambs there, certainly.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 14 Aug 2017 08:46

perhaps that is why disposable border guards are in chumbi valley while the real PLA sits further north in warm heated huts.