Neutering & Defanging Chinese Threat (09-08-2014)

vasu raya · Post by **vasu raya** » 16 Aug 2017 00:37

Based on the inverted map with Indian peninsular region jutting into the Indian ocean region, it would be nice if we can virtually overlay the Chinese boundaries as they are today and conduct exercises that simulate the air ops and missile tests over Tibet and Chinese eastern board, the latter probably maps closer to the southern part of the Indian ocean. IN could place its ships simulating the S300 units ringing the Chinese cities

the air force Jags and the maritime Jags converging technology wise would serve these exercises well

Mihaylo · Post by **Mihaylo** » 16 Aug 2017 00:43

Varoon Shekhar wrote:I have seen 3 crazy Chinese women on the Toronto transit system. Two of them were telling about India or toward Indians 1 was ranting openly, not directed at anyone in particular, about the Indian and Pakistani nuclear programmes. Another was yelling non stop at 2 Indian looking guys who were obvious strangers. Not sure what the topic was. An old Chinese man on the bus near Toronto's Chinatown was yakking at an Indian looking woman, and even gave a mocking namaste sign, hands together, to her. Again, not sure what the reason was, but it occurred soon after this current spat on the border broke out.

Citizens of the great superpower country reduced to this....lol.
Thok do !!

-M

BSR Murthy · Post by **BSR Murthy** » 16 Aug 2017 00:55

ManishC wrote:A correction in Chinese growth might occur sooner than later http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 074729.cms

Economic neutering is the most feasible and effective way to neutralize the yellow threat. India should act as a catalyst - increase defense spending, make CPEC a stone around the neck around these stone throwers, do not become a market for their crap.
Collapse of USSR is a ready template.
Live and Let Live should be put away next couple of decades towards both Chicken and its green shit to the west.

+100
Well said

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 16 Aug 2017 01:17

Singha wrote:We should give #patharbaaz j&k misguided youth once last chance to rejoin national mainstream. Serve a tour of duty stoning pla troops or serve it in jail

Wow! Time to send the entire SFI Corps(es) from Malloostan. I am terrified about the next step up their escaration raddel: Bicycle chains. Question of course is which side they will fight on.

But soldiers getting injured by stones at 13000 feet is not good news. I do hope that there are at least 300 return visits by Indian forces. Interesting definition of where the latest clash occurred.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 16 Aug 2017 01:18

Varoon Shekhar wrote:I have seen 3 crazy Chinese women on the Toronto transit system.

Any chance of posting video on social media/ filing charges?

kittoo · Post by **kittoo** » 16 Aug 2017 01:23

Chandragupta wrote:Why is our defence budget till languishing at 1.5-1.6% of GDP? With the threat of a 2.5 front war being very very real in the near future, at least increase it to 2% if not 2.5-3%! All things said & done, Defence acquisition & indigenousation seems pretty low on this government's priority lists. People fret on not having a full time defence minister, but that is probably a good thing - MoD being handled directly by the PMO and Doval. But for crying out loud, increase the defence budget to 3%, buy indigenous stuff, the money remains in the country and we build scale & capabilities.

Yeah this is one area where I've been severely disappointed by this government. There seems little urgency in terms of defense. There is no defense minister, no increase in defense budget, little quickness or streamlining of procurement. Only when push comes to shove, some emergency purchases are being done.

Jarita · Post by **Jarita** » 16 Aug 2017 01:26

DrRatnadip wrote: What the F*** is going on.. Two nuclear powers fighting with stones..

Because use of bullets will end the 40 year stalemate. Its a big deal if they use bullets.
This is not stupid. They are communicating aggression just short of a war.

Jarita · Post by **Jarita** » 16 Aug 2017 01:27

UlanBatori wrote:
Singha wrote:We should give #patharbaaz j&k misguided youth once last chance to rejoin national mainstream. Serve a tour of duty stoning pla troops or serve it in jail
Wow! Time to send the entire SFI Corps(es) from Malloostan. I am terrified about the next step up their escaration raddel: Bicycle chains. Question of course is which side they will fight on.

But soldiers getting injured by stones at 13000 feet is not good news. I do hope that there are at least 300 return visits by Indian forces. Interesting definition of where the latest clash occurred.

Yes because a bullet will be the beginning of real conflict. They are smart. They are not doing that. Do not trivialize their actions.

bharotshontan · Post by **bharotshontan** » 16 Aug 2017 01:37

Is there some escalation ladder protocol in place where non fatal combat between international combatants is somehow a lesser provocation than fatal combat? I don't understand the point of these jostling, wrestling, now stone throwing, next water cannon shooting etc. If Indian soldiers respond to a stone with a bullet does that make India the aggressor inside Indian territory?

pandyan · Post by **pandyan** » 16 Aug 2017 01:38

Hot oil and boulders (baahubali) style next

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 16 Aug 2017 01:39

What is the purpose of this thread? Or the generalized ranting righteous, juvenile nukkad-talk, and meaningless anecdotes about 'stupid'/'crazy'/'cowardly' Chinese people.

Sure it may be cathartic but its also pointless. And better suited to ToI comment sections.

- We cannot 'disable' the Chinese economy and it is too large & complex to simply collapse, however much you may wish it be true. Even if it slows down, it is still about three times larger than ours and it will take India at least two decades to close that gap down.

- China's military strength is primarily a function of its economic strength - and that too isn't getting 'neutered' overnight. Whatever qualitative issues it faced as a 'people's army' will reduce as its gradually professionalizes.

- Upping our defence budget means making cuts elsewhere (infrastructure, education, health), or raising taxes or running up debt, all which have serious and obvious long term consequences.

------------------------------------------------------

Aside from better budget management on the MoD side and increasing collaboration with PacRim states on the MEA side there isn't much of a 'response' required.

There has been no significant troop buildup on the Chinese side, we have an effective military & strategic deterrent to war, and shoving competitions on the LAC don't change the facts on ground.

Jarita · Post by **Jarita** » 16 Aug 2017 01:44

bharotshontan wrote:Is there some escalation ladder protocol in place where non fatal combat between international combatants is somehow a lesser provocation than fatal combat? I don't understand the point of these jostling, wrestling, now stone throwing, next water cannon shooting etc. If Indian soldiers respond to a stone with a bullet does that make India the aggressor inside Indian territory?

They would likely prefer provocation from our side. Imagine if one of our folks gets trigger happy a la Nathula. It would make things easier for them. We have to watch this carefully. There is much aplay within China. A good China observer would be able to read the signs.
Video game wars is well and good and older nations do not fight them that way.
And Ladakh is territory they can easily claim and state Indians shot their people in their territory. It might mobilize the nation.

Please do not underestimate the games and mock at their actions.

ManishC · Post by **ManishC** » 16 Aug 2017 01:51

Overnight is in your version of nukkad talk - keep at it for a decade or two I said - can we internalize a grudge and see it to the end? Chinese see India as a pushover - Doklam is a change in the right direction, more needs to be done in a sustained and planned manner regardless of which party is in power.
Why make it easy for them by being passive?

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 16 Aug 2017 01:53

Stone throwing is serious all right: soldiers are getting hurt. Soldiers being asked to engage in hand-to-hand unarmed combat, does not seem right. I am not sure exactly WHY, but it does not seem right. It's better than reading about soldiers being killed, after all. If we are going to lose soldiers, I would rather see that happening deep inside Uttar Dharmasala while liberating the people there from Han colonialist imperialist exploiter paper tigers and their running dogs.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 16 Aug 2017 01:59

About the thread's purpose, I always thought it was to advise the Indian PM, Cabinet, LokSabha, Army, Navy, Air Force, and to frighten and drive away the Chinese Dictator-in-Chief, Flunky PLA General #1, #2, all the rest, PLAF, PLAN, and the entire Politburo. U mean it's not?

I thought we were being extremely effective.
As for "trivializing", perish the thought. Would it help if we linked a rendition of the JGM, VM etc at the end of every post, I wonder.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 16 Aug 2017 02:02

ManishC wrote:Overnight is in your version of nukkad talk - keep at it for a decade or two I said - can we internalize a grudge and see it to the end? Chinese see India as a pushover - Doklam is a change in the right direction, more needs to be done in a sustained and planned manner regardless of which party is in power.
Why make it easy for them by being passive?

The Army isn't being 'passive' on the ground. And the Chinese military isn't exactly deterred by hyper-aggressive stances on the internet.

bharotshontan · Post by **bharotshontan** » 16 Aug 2017 02:04

Jarita wrote:
bharotshontan wrote:Is there some escalation ladder protocol in place where non fatal combat between international combatants is somehow a lesser provocation than fatal combat? I don't understand the point of these jostling, wrestling, now stone throwing, next water cannon shooting etc. If Indian soldiers respond to a stone with a bullet does that make India the aggressor inside Indian territory?
They would likely prefer provocation from our side. Imagine if one of our folks gets trigger happy a la Nathula. It would make things easier for them. We have to watch this carefully. There is much aplay within China. A good China observer would be able to read the signs.
Video game wars is well and good and older nations do not fight them that way.
And Ladakh is territory they can easily claim and state Indians shot their people in their territory. It might mobilize the nation.

Please do not underestimate the games and mock at their actions.

I'm not mocking, just trying to understand. Is there protocol for specifically non fatal combat? Like do area commanders call each other ahead of time decide place and time and say don't bring weapons? What purpose do these serve in terms of changing who is in control of better position etc? What happens if one group draws weapons and outnumbers or just overpowers other group into capture? Is that equivalent to a bullet firing? What is the utility of the non fatal combats in the larger picture?

ManishC · Post by **ManishC** » 16 Aug 2017 02:10

Viv S wrote:
ManishC wrote:Overnight is in your version of nukkad talk - keep at it for a decade or two I said - can we internalize a grudge and see it to the end? Chinese see India as a pushover - Doklam is a change in the right direction, more needs to be done in a sustained and planned manner regardless of which party is in power.
Why make it easy for them by being passive?
The Army isn't being 'passive' on the ground. And the Chinese military isn't exactly deterred by hyper-aggressive stances on the internet.

No reference to what Army is doing today in my post. I am talking medium to long term. Bigger and better empires have fallen, the middle kingdom will pass too. We just need to help them along, that's all.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 16 Aug 2017 02:19

UlanBatori wrote:About the thread's purpose, I always thought it was to advise the Indian PM, Cabinet, LokSabha, Army, Navy, Air Force, and to frighten and drive away the Chinese Dictator-in-Chief, Flunky PLA General #1, #2, all the rest, PLAF, PLAN, and the entire Politburo. U mean it's not?

Well I always assumed it was to facilitate informed discussion, raise general awareness and perhaps obliquely influence the media, on military & geo-political matters. Particularly on military issues where the depth of discussion is usually better than in dedicated sections of the media (IDSA & the like).

But of course if its intended for smack-talk of the yo-mama variety (complicated by the fact that there's only one Chinese guy on the forum), that's a different matter. Maybe its the moderators who ought to loosen up then.

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 16 Aug 2017 02:57

DrRatnadip wrote: What the F*** is going on.. Two nuclear powers fighting with stones..

Better than killing other humans any day.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 16 Aug 2017 02:59

sanjaykumar wrote:
DrRatnadip wrote: What the F*** is going on.. Two nuclear powers fighting with stones..
Better than killing other humans any day.

stones have killed in cashmere, no??

or are these very special peaceful stones??

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 16 Aug 2017 03:01

Chinese see India as a pushover

In fact that is not so. Do Indians go apesh!t over Cameroonians?

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 16 Aug 2017 03:09

DavidD wrote:Sure China spends money on logistics, but they're not for making war, at least not against external threats. You can consult shiv's videos regarding their usefulness in war-making against India.

You need a paradigm shift. Right now you're seeing everything coming from China through the lens of an impending attack on India. China is fundamentally an inward-looking nation, always has been, and the CCP is no different from past rulers of China in that their primary objective is to retain control within China. Try to look at Chinese actions through that lens, and you'll see a different picture.

I think you're buttressing my position without realizing it. Yes, China is inward looking. It's also not itching to go bomb other countries on a regular basis like the YooEss does.

But how does China stay inward looking ? By ensuring it's neighbors are off balance (everyone except Russia), or by suing for peace (with Russia). It doesn't mean you don't want half of eastern Siberia, but the point is you want quiet there now and you got it by signing a peace treaty. With the rest, you ensure they stay off balance by playing them against each other or constantly keeping the border unsettled but accessible to send mythically strong 50 man troops.

China pursues this trite Suntzutiapa policy on an essentially constant basis. The concept of a settled position simply does not exist unless it's dealing with what it considers a bigger power (e.g. Russia above) it doesn't want to get mauled by. With anyone else, standard policy is to maintain the needle-and-prod approach. In Tibet though, it's not easy. The border is on the other side of a restive occupied country, way up at altitude where the average tongzhi is freezing his nuts off and cannot breathe. And when the other side basically blocks you in mid attempt and refuses to blink, you have two options:
a) Withdraw quietly, pretend it didn't happen, repeat elsewhere
b) Go batshit crazy and yell loudly about Chinese sovirginity being non-negotiable and that vely glave consequences will follow if India doesn't immediately vacate. Continue on and on for 2+ months.

You should have picked a) but stupidly picked b). Picking a) would have let you sanitize your press and pretend nothing happened, giving plausible deniability while the other side cries wolf about something you simply claim never happened. By picking b), you can't do that. On the other hand, China typically can be reliably predicted to pick the dumb choice when forced to respond rather than set the terms.

Sure there's genius in constantly keeping the other side off balance, but it works with option a). The argument gets muddled when you take option b) and demonstrate repeatedly that you're a bully who's not too hard to stand up to. It makes you look impotent in our eyes, and even gets you laughed at, something the Indian press pretty much never did with China before.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 16 Aug 2017 04:13

China (Hanna) is an inward-looking nation, but why insist on looking in always standing on other people's territory? Let's see the list of places from where Hanna has been looking in: Mongolia (now called Inner Mongolia because it is used for Inward Looking), Dharmasala (ti-bet), Uighuristan, Aksai Hind, Ladakh, Northern Bhutan, now western Bhutan, Northern Arunachal, Siberia (Ussuri River and elsewhere), northern Myanmar, northern Thailand, Southern Myammar, Kampuchea, Laos, Vietnam, North Korea, Phillippines, Japan, Indonesia. Hong Kong.

Also Hanna is very Inward-Looking. Into other people's bedrooms. In Mizoram, Nagaland, Manipur, Tripura, Nepal, Bhutan, Jammu-Kashmir, Jharkhand. Also into other people's offices and companies. In Japan, UK, USA, Canada, France, Germany, Italy.

Back in the 1930s and early 1940s Germany was also very Inward-Looking. So was Japan.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 16 Aug 2017 04:14

I think that video of the Chinese Ambassador in Toronto should be spread far and wide. Priceless. Chinese ******* barking. Calm, dignified Indian lady. Security guard observing with deep interest. Chinese abusing the freedom of speech that they are given in other countries, which their own dump does not afford anyone.

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 16 Aug 2017 04:23

But how does China stay inward looking ? By ensuring it's neighbors are off balance (everyone except Russia), or by suing for peace (with Russia). It doesn't mean you don't want half of eastern Siberia, but the point is you want quiet there now and you got it by signing a peace treaty. With the rest, you ensure they stay off balance by playing them against each other or constantly keeping the border unsettled but accessible to send mythically strong 50 man troops.

China pursues this trite Suntzutiapa policy on an essentially constant basis. The concept of a settled position simply does not exist unless it's dealing with what it considers a bigger power (e.g. Russia above) it doesn't want to get mauled by. With anyone else, standard policy is to maintain the needle-and-prod approach. In Tibet though, it's not easy. The border is on the other side of a restive occupied country, way up at altitude where the average tongzhi is freezing his nuts off and cannot breathe. And when the other side basically blocks you in mid attempt and refuses to blink, you have two options:
a) Withdraw quietly, pretend it didn't happen, repeat elsewhere
b) Go batshit crazy and yell loudly about Chinese sovirginity being non-negotiable and that vely glave consequences will follow if India doesn't immediately vacate. Continue on and on for 2+ months.

You should have picked a) but stupidly picked b).

Suraj, excellent point.

The short/medium-term goal for India here is forcing China to the realization that, in the interest of remaining safely and comfortably "inward looking", it should adopt towards India the same approach it does towards Russia (sue for peace) and forget about the approach it uses with other neighbours (keep them off balance through serial micro-aggressions) because that approach will result in unacceptable pain.

They need to internalize the fact that the entire greater Indian subcontinent between Herat, Muscat, Walong, and Singapore is ours. Whatever belts and roads and maritime corridors they envision in this area, it is we who will build, own, and safeguard them. Any attempt by them to intrude upon our sphere of influence is unacceptable to us. To convey our displeasure we have the capacity to hurt their core interests in discrete, measurable quanta at times and places of our choosing. If they escalate in retaliation, they are subjecting their own dreams of a global Chinese Century to certain doom.

Talking about liberating Tibet and all that will have to wait until considerably later in this century. I personally think China will undergo a catastrophic political transformation internally before India actually gets around to doing anything like that... and Tibet will gain its independence from Communist rule as a result of that upheaval.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 16 Aug 2017 04:27

The frustration is clearly showing in the other incidents being cited (stone throwing at the lake). I think next step is that they are going to try to kidnap soldiers/officers and claim they were intruding.

If I were running the show, I would let them come far into our territory, then, say, disable the boat if possible. No contact, no interference. Let them expend energy walking. Of course if they try destroying our installations, fire to dissuade that.

Cut them off behind if possible, and make it interesting for them to go back to their side. No shooting, just humiliation. This intrusion business must be made more expensive to conduct, than to defend against.

DavidD · Post by **DavidD** » 16 Aug 2017 04:58

Suraj wrote:
DavidD wrote:Sure China spends money on logistics, but they're not for making war, at least not against external threats. You can consult shiv's videos regarding their usefulness in war-making against India.

You need a paradigm shift. Right now you're seeing everything coming from China through the lens of an impending attack on India. China is fundamentally an inward-looking nation, always has been, and the CCP is no different from past rulers of China in that their primary objective is to retain control within China. Try to look at Chinese actions through that lens, and you'll see a different picture.
I think you're buttressing my position without realizing it. Yes, China is inward looking. It's also not itching to go bomb other countries on a regular basis like the YooEss does.

But how does China stay inward looking ? By ensuring it's neighbors are off balance (everyone except Russia), or by suing for peace (with Russia). It doesn't mean you don't want half of eastern Siberia, but the point is you want quiet there now and you got it by signing a peace treaty. With the rest, you ensure they stay off balance by playing them against each other or constantly keeping the border unsettled but accessible to send mythically strong 50 man troops.

China pursues this trite Suntzutiapa policy on an essentially constant basis. The concept of a settled position simply does not exist unless it's dealing with what it considers a bigger power (e.g. Russia above) it doesn't want to get mauled by. With anyone else, standard policy is to maintain the needle-and-prod approach. In Tibet though, it's not easy. The border is on the other side of a restive occupied country, way up at altitude where the average tongzhi is freezing his nuts off and cannot breathe. And when the other side basically blocks you in mid attempt and refuses to blink, you have two options:
a) Withdraw quietly, pretend it didn't happen, repeat elsewhere
b) Go batshit crazy and yell loudly about Chinese sovirginity being non-negotiable and that vely glave consequences will follow if India doesn't immediately vacate. Continue on and on for 2+ months.

You should have picked a) but stupidly picked b). Picking a) would have let you sanitize your press and pretend nothing happened, giving plausible deniability while the other side cries wolf about something you simply claim never happened. By picking b), you can't do that. On the other hand, China typically can be reliably predicted to pick the dumb choice when forced to respond rather than set the terms.

Sure there's genius in constantly keeping the other side off balance, but it works with option a). The argument gets muddled when you take option b) and demonstrate repeatedly that you're a bully who's not too hard to stand up to. It makes you look impotent in our eyes, and even gets you laughed at, something the Indian press pretty much never did with China before.

For someone who's reliably picked the dumb choice, those choices have worked out pretty well haven't they? To this day you can still hear the chorus predicting imminent war with China. To this day you still see many unwilling to take their lumps with the LCA, Kaveri, etc. because they believe war can happen at any time with China so India needs to pay through the nose for Rafale, Gorshkov, and such. This all despite the fact that the last and only time China invaded (briefly) was over half a century ago.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 16 Aug 2017 05:44

OTOH, David, as someone interested in India's defence, I am deeply grateful to the Chinese Communist leadership of the PLA. If China were a friendly and trustworthy neighbor instead of a treacherous bully, India would **not** have an LCA at all. The Kaveri, yes, because the coffee shops in Bengaluru have benefited enormously from its patronage. The LCA, no, because the primary purpose of the LCA program (as defined circa 1994) was to provide cover for the development of the Agni, which is motivated purely by China. Same for BRAHMOS. The BOFORS mountain guns were primarily to defend against the PLA, but ended up annihilating your Taller-Than-The-Oceans proxies the pakis in 1999. oops!

Indians would be perfectly happy to buy their defense, as they buy anything else, from foreign experts. Maybe they would have disbanded the Indian Army and Navy and Air Force and just outsourced it all to Blackwater Security plus the Mumbai Supari Goondas. Or preferably, direct from China. In fact there was a move some years back to buy Chinese collaboration for the Kaveri high-pressure core section (a great day for the Reverse Engineering Dept there!) Shows you how serious the Kaveri program is/was. No need for a Navy either, the UK and US Navies are down in Diego Garcia and the Persian Gulf. Pakistan does not merit any serious expenditure on indigenous defense industry, India can probably afford to just BUY all of Pakistan too.

So it is Red China that has made India one of the most powerful militaries in the world.

谢谢您的帮助

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 16 Aug 2017 06:14

yak herder wrote:China (Hanna) is an inward-looking nation, but why insist on looking in always standing on other people's territory?

Because Suntzutiapa.

They don't have a concept of settled amicable borders . Its easier to figure when you view a border as a continuously negotiable entity, to be used any time for accomplishing small or large goals .

There is no point in wondering why they don't pursue peaceful coexistence . They just don't get it . Their strategic political bible says 'everything is a zero sum dog eat dog situation', so hey act accordingly . This doesn't just apply to outsiders . Most of their own history is like this . A dynasty ends with decades of continuous warfare killing 10-50m. The next dynasty is the biggest turd to rise to the top from the carnage . Rinse and repeat .

The Russians imho understand suntzutiapa better than us . Their response was to break PLAs jaw and ask 'don't do that again, da?' When they croak 'yes ok', they break both arms and legs so the message is heard and remembered better .

IA should act once in a while with extreme viciousness . But, and this may not be popular here, I feel we should not publicize it much. Hit back extrememely hard and suddenly and withdraw, but then publicly refuse to acknowledge anything . Let them shout .

Do this a few times and the problem of guessing will become theirs - 'will the Yinduren hit back hard or not ?' It takes away their ability to needle , and it also avoids us having to commit enough resources and effort to hit back at everything . Keeps our costs down . If they're going to make us guess, well so are we...

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 16 Aug 2017 06:26

Hit back extremely hard and suddenly and withdraw, but then publicly refuse to acknowledge anything . Let them shout .

I don't know about the "extremely" part but IMO the rest is exactly what has been happening since 2014. Hence the yelping and hissing and spitting. They can't say what has happened to them.

I had read about the Ussuri River tamasha, as in SR71 flights going over the area expecting to see tactical nukes used. But only recently did I read about the utter massacre there. No wonder there is peace. All of Red China's neighbors need to be educated on this, so that there is a coordinated kicking party.

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 16 Aug 2017 06:28

Ah DavidD's view of death by a thousand cuts . David, that's not a new thing to us . Long ago in the 90s a lady named Benazir Bhutto said the same thing - that they'd make us bleed by needling and prodding us with an endless supply of angry terorrists in Cashmere . Pakistan used to be richer than India those days . Scary stuff .

Today the Pakistanis are about 30% poorer on average . The Indian economy is about 10x larger than theirs . And Benazir ? She had her head blown off by one of those terrorists some years ago .

About the talk of war, maybe you didn't realize it, but Indian papers are quoting the Chinese press here, so...

China has been needling and prodding India even longer . And it's far too emotionally invested in Doklam, which betrays weakness . You've spent 2 months shouting pointlessly at a smaller/weaker/poorer country having great trouble productionizing a little 4G fighter while you have multiple 5G ones, and imported ACs, subs and even handguns . Surely you can do better than that ?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 16 Aug 2017 07:01

bharotshontan wrote:Is there some escalation ladder protocol in place where non fatal combat between international combatants is somehow a lesser provocation than fatal combat? I don't understand the point of these jostling, wrestling, now stone throwing, next water cannon shooting etc. If Indian soldiers respond to a stone with a bullet does that make India the aggressor inside Indian territory?

I think you need to look at this from an "on the ground" situation. These men are all young, fit and aggressive and are trained to kill. Some of our boys will have done tours through J&K where they have actually killed. Strict discipline is needed or things can very easily go out of hand. So they have orders not to raise their rifles or cock them, let alone shoot. When shooting starts it will be a deliberate act to win a tactical situation and not fire off angry gesticulative shots in the general direction of an enemy. That means an entire chain of command will know exactly what is needed of them.

Jostling and stones get handled locally. But if stones repeatedly hurt one side - someone on the other side will get shot. They know that.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 16 Aug 2017 07:19

Varoon Shekhar wrote:I have seen 2 crazy Chinese women and one crazy man on the Toronto transit system. Two of them were yelling about India or toward Indians .One was ranting openly, not directed at anyone in particular, about the Indian and Pakistani nuclear programmes. Another was yelling non stop at 2 Indian looking guys who were obvious strangers. Not sure what the topic was. An old Chinese man on the bus near Toronto's Chinatown was yakking at an Indian looking woman, and even gave a mocking namaste sign, hands together, to her. Again, not sure what the reason was, but it occurred soon after this current spat on the border broke out.

That video and this information are both very interesting. Clearly the information that the Chinese in Toronto are getting is different from the information in Western media - which is very very little about Doklam etc. Most likely those Toronto Chinese are picking up stuff from Chinese social media and CPC mouthpieces. The level of anger they show indicates that something has caused some serious gaand mein khujli.

I think that they might possibly be getting information that Indian underkuttas are not backing down as they should and are echoing warnings that punishment is on the way. That said - in the video of the umbrella swinging Chinese lady she seems to be saying that there should be UN sanctions against India. That is a strange statement..

PS: Comments from Chinese on many of my videos say that China has a right to build roads on its own territory and India has invaded Chinese territory. This is the likely Chinese viewpoint. Bhutan has been excluded from this. In fact it also suggests to me that if India had not intervened - all Bhutanese protests would have been scotched by a show of strength.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 16 Aug 2017 07:32

bharotshontan wrote:Is there some escalation ladder protocol in place where non fatal combat between international combatants is somehow a lesser provocation than fatal combat? I don't understand the point of these jostling, wrestling, now stone throwing, next water cannon shooting etc. If Indian soldiers respond to a stone with a bullet does that make India the aggressor inside Indian territory?

The Chinese think they are very smart and GoI doesn't understand its tactics or strategy.

They tried to force on us the BDCA (Border Defence Cooperation Agreement) in the last days of the UPA. The new BDCA was pushed by China because India has begun to concentrate on its eastern borders (against the usual practice of concentrating on its western borders) in military, infrastructure and logistics terms and China felt compelled to contain it through the means of a new agreement, it having already developed its infrastructure along its side of the border. The Daulat Beg Oldie (Depsang Valley) incident was therefore created to lend some urgency to the BDCA proposal of China. China demanded that BDCA be signed before Li Keqiang's first visit to India, but it finally got signed nearly nine months later after a couple of rounds of drafts etc.during Man Mohan Singh's last visit to China towards end of c. 2013.

The BDCA forbids ‘tailing’ of intruding forces, night patrols and eyeball-to-eyeball confrontations with intruding forces. Crucially, India and China have also agreed that if the two sides come face-to-face in areas where they have differing perceptions of the LAC, “both sides shall exercise maximum self-restraint, refrain from any provocative actions, not use force or threaten to use force against the other side, treat each other with courtesy and prevent exchange of armed conflict”. It also envisages periodic meetings between officers of the Chengdu Military Region (CMR) and India’s Eastern Command (Kolkatta) and Lanzhou Military Region (LMR) and the Northern Command (Udhampur). The two sides are to establish meeting sites for border personnel (BPM or Border Personnel Meeting), as well as telephone and telecommunication links on the LAC. A hotline between the two military headquarters is under consideration, though I am not sure if it ever got done. So, protocol is there.

These tactics (though I am not sure about pelting with stones) are part of BDCA. Indian and Chinese armies also conduct a joint exercise called Hand-in-Hand. Do they train for these jostling-type hand-in-hand situations?

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 16 Aug 2017 07:40

Chinkos learning from the Paki swine in J&K? I think that there's future in developing a "stone thrower" weapon! Would be very useful in J&K,giving it back to the pro-Paki rent-boys and against the "yellow peril".Why not some ballistae too,v.easy too transport by helo and assemble if in modular form,taking some ideas from M.Asterix and Obelix.Magic potion,XXX Hercules rum!

sum · Post by **sum** » 16 Aug 2017 07:45

^^ Isnt it the weaker power/underdog which usually throws stones ( ala the David and Goliath story) and thats how the Muslim world sells it ( Palestine, Kashmir etc where poor stone throwers have to overcome the large well armed kaffirs).

So the Chinese have now started considering themselves as the underdog here?

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 16 Aug 2017 07:53

Stone pelting would appear to be what happens when one is too far away for pushing & shoving but want to generally convey a pleasant greeting. The general idea in these parts is that both sides have the right to patrol, the trouble is when the patrols come up in the same place at the same time (or if one side starts building roads). When they say that the incident was on the "north shore" of that lake, that does not say much - it could still be well inside the LAC on the Indian side or not at all. "South Shore" is clearly Indian. The news says that in this 13000 foot place, both sides also deploy armed boats.

Yes, Chinese media level of shrillness is pretty comical. Maybe they have heard what we know already, and we should also start leaking that intel about that whole starving Division of PLA that defected last month on the Doklam plateau, leaving the rest of North Dharmasala completely open for Indian forces. At least tell the umbrella-swinging mommas that their spoiled-brat sons are still alive and being fed warm rice gruel in south Dharmasala under the good care of the Dalai Lama and the Falun Gong.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 16 Aug 2017 07:59

Stone throwing by PLA also shows the creeping influence of LeT etc on it, now that the PLA has been stationed in POK along with these jihadis.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 16 Aug 2017 08:02

Well... they seem to have found out that Indians are good at cricket. Where Jadeja got suspended for 1 game for a near-miss, the IA probably scored numerous direct hits on the "stumps".