Indian Railways Thread (Dec 2015)

[Supratik]

It seems he was asked to resign. Gadkari is tipped to take over. Prabhu did not use the fear of danda soon enough when the first few accidents happened.

[Karthik S]

He can take over defense minister position, although it will raise hue and cry from usual suspects.

[srin]

It is time to split the railways into multiple integrated corporations. It is the last vestige of our socialist era - centrally run, centrally planned and loss-making. All decisions need to be decentralized and all aspects of infra needs to be profit-centers.
First, form JV (profit-sharing, instead of debt-funding) with each state to create a railway corp to host the infrastructure. Track-laying within the state is the responsibility of the state railway corp. There is no reason for someone sitting in Delhi to decide on line doubling of Bangalore-mysore line.
Next, corporatize each station with profit-sharing and reduce the stakes gradually.

Then the trains. Trains need to pay "toll" for utilizing the tracks of other state corp and for every station. For instance, train from Bangalore to Delhi needs to pay toll to AP, MH, MP, UP and Delhi.
Trains can also be private owned.

So, what will the central govt's railways do ? It will act as a regulator and lay down uniform rules.

[Sicanta]

[quote="Sachin"][/quote]


Officials said the accident occurred when the train hit a sand-laden dumper which overturned at an unmanned level crossing minutes before the train was to pass through.

[Sicanta]

I wonder if this truck was working on edfc; railways has categorically mentioned that truck does not belong to them. But through unconfirmed sources -



So the main reason of derailment looks like illegal way of crossing. In pic we can see mud filling to make temporary way/sort cut for dfc work. Truck just see both side and cross the track, it might had happened that it got chocked or trapped when train comes. This is hieght of ignorance of workers and it happens next to 3kms of a station.

[Sachin]

Officials said the accident occurred when the train hit a sand-laden dumper which overturned at an unmanned level crossing minutes before the train was to pass through.

If this was the case, no Railway Minister should resign. Because then that would become the main job of such ministers. In an unmanned level crossing the onus to ensure safety is on the road vehicle user (and not railways, or the engine drivers). In a country like India, where civic consciousness or even common sense is some times a rarity, such kinds of incidents would keep on coming. And completely phasing out "un manned level crossings" is not immediately possible considering the financial aspects.

[Marten]

It seems he was asked to resign. Gadkari is tipped to take over. Prabhu did not use the fear of danda soon enough when the first few accidents happened.

He is not known for being a harsh person. He is a scholarly person who can delve in detail and actually understand.
He might actually be a great RM if they decided to move in the exCOAS as his deputy. We have waited until two chiefs rotated. That much should be enough to avoid further issues related to both domain expertise and danda.

Gadkari on the other hand will be eminently suited to handle the million vendors and clean up whatever is required. He is also very unafraid of throwing his weight. Would welcome him and expect that we try another revision in passenger fares sometime soon. Our freight rates are already the highest in the world for comparable networks.

[Karthik S]

It seems he was asked to resign. Gadkari is tipped to take over. Prabhu did not use the fear of danda soon enough when the first few accidents happened.

He is not known for being a harsh person. He is a scholarly person who can delve in detail and actually understand.
He might actually be a great RM if they decided to move in the exCOAS as his deputy. We have waited until two chiefs rotated. That much should be enough to avoid further issues related to both domain expertise and danda.

Gadkari on the other hand will be eminently suited to handle the million vendors and clean up whatever is required. He is also very unafraid of throwing his weight. Would welcome him and expect that we try another revision in passenger fares sometime soon. Our freight rates are already the highest in the world for comparable networks.

Marten ji, that reshuffling can happen later, doing that now will show BJP has become defensive and this is something opposition will take full advantage of. It's an unfortunate event that the train hit a truck, there are many YT videos of such accidents happening across the world.

[Marten]

He is not known for being a harsh person. He is a scholarly person who can delve in detail and actually understand.
He might actually be a great RM if they decided to move in the exCOAS as his deputy. We have waited until two chiefs rotated. That much should be enough to avoid further issues related to both domain expertise and danda.

Gadkari on the other hand will be eminently suited to handle the million vendors and clean up whatever is required. He is also very unafraid of throwing his weight. Would welcome him and expect that we try another revision in passenger fares sometime soon. Our freight rates are already the highest in the world for comparable networks.

Marten ji, that reshuffling can happen later, doing that now will show BJP has become defensive and this is something opposition will take full advantage of. It's an unfortunate event that the train hit a truck, there are many YT videos of such accidents happening across the world.

Why ji for me, boss? I was just stating it in the context of the reshuffle. Whenever it happens. Simply integrated all surface transport into one ministry. We need to also see who the next rung of capable ministers will be.

(OT: I think RNS will move to a less hectic ministry while a younger, dynamic Piyush will take a step up.)

[Supratik]

Railways in India is too big. Need dedicated minister.

[Singha]

i have seen him respond live in parliament monsoon session from visitor gallery. he has the look of a iit/iim prof than a hard as nails streetfighter needed to control IR.

[nandakumar]

His claims to managerial prowess was never tested. In the first NDA govt he was Shiv Sena representative holding the Power ministry. He refused to engage in corrupt deals that would benefit his party/chief. He chose to resign instead. Later he drifted away from Shiv Dena. Integrity was his hallmark.

[chetak]

This is India.

The best and most effective management style is the Bata Management style.

Don't touch/tangle with the unionised labor class rascals but mercilessly go after non-performing middle and senior management.

Always works. Just let the middle and senior management handle the unions on a day to day basis because they all know how to do that.

there is just too much of easy money available for the asking in every railway division and department.

[suryag]

what if this was a deliberate vehicle pulled onto the tracks, hope that angle is explored too.

[vina]

His claims to managerial prowess was never tested. In the first NDA govt he was Shiv Sena representative holding the Power ministry. He refused to engage in corrupt deals that would benefit his party/chief. He chose to resign instead. Later he drifted away from Shiv Dena. Integrity was his hallmark.

He very successfully ran the Saraswat Bank.

[SBajwa]

Indian government needs to have hire and fire policy. Rewards for performing people and jail/suspension with fine for non-performance. People do not work and expect money from government!

all unions should be banned! no labor unions allowed!

[Karthik S]

pappu fatnavis again plays spoil sport, PM Abe will be here in next few weeks to launch the project. Great.

Chief minister Devendra Fadnavis has refused to allot land at Bandra-Kurla Complex to the railways ministry for the ambitious Rs98,000-crore bullet train project. He has offered two alternative sites instead — behind Dhirubhai Ambani International School at BKC and at Dharavi — where a terminus could be built.

In a meeting held on Wednesday with central authorities and officials from the Japan government, Fadnavis reiterated his government’s stand.

Railways officials expressed concern that if the BKC plot was not alloted, it would delay the project by one-and-a-half years. The Centre plans to complete the project by 2023.

He said that if it caused any delay in the project, railway authorities should blame themselves for not undertaking a feasibility check.

The state government has earmarked the BKC plot for Fadnavis’ pet project International Financial Services Centre. The Union government has not approved the 50-hectare land as a finance special economic zone (SEZ), which will lead to tax concessions.

In Wednesday’s meeting, Fadnavis said that the High Speed Rail Corporation, which is under the railways ministry, had failed to prepare a detailed project report.

He also urged railway officials to check feasibility of other alternative sites.

It is not the first time that the state government has suggested options for the starting point of the bullet train services. Earlier, it had asked the railways ministry to consider plots at Dadar, Kurla and Bandra.

According to an official from the transport department, the plot where IFSC is proposed cannot be shared for the bullet train, even if the station is underground. “Though the terminus needs only 0.9 hectares of 47, parking slots and other related activities will take up more space. Other sites suggested are in the vicinity and would not disturb the design of the project,” said the official.

“The central authorities have been asked to check the feasibility of the two alternative sites,” said Nitin Kareer, principal secretary, urban development department.

The state government also wants the authorities to extend the bullet train corridor to Nagpur via Nashik. A Spanish firm has been conducting a study for the extension, which will run parallel to Fadnavis’ pet project Samruddhi corridor (Mumbai-Nagpur Expressway).

“Over tax concessions for IFSC and a plot for the terminus, Fadnavis is playing hardball with the Centre,” said the official.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/mumbai-ne ... yxRJK.html

[niran]

pappu fatnavis again plays spoil sport, PM Abe will be here in next few weeks to launch the project. Great.

The state government also wants the authorities to extend the bullet train corridor to Nagpur via Nashik. A Spanish firm has been conducting a study for the extension, which will run parallel to Fadnavis’ pet project Samruddhi corridor (Mumbai-Nagpur Expressway).

first time i hear this, Fadnavis must realize NaMo can call him to Dilli as MoS in Khadi ministry if the need arises. BTW it is Al-Hundi so will wait for 72 hours

[Singha]

so why exactly is having the HSR in BKC a must have for its success?

and why are people wanting a sonia gandhi type high command regime that treats state CMs like peons?

we need a bunch of independent chief ministers who stand on their own merits and rise, to prevent the prithviraj chauhan and hemchandra vikramaditya episode dont we?

[Kashi]

so why exactly is having the HSR in BKC a must have for its success?

HSR model is critically reliant on connecting city centres or as close to city centres as it can get. If you build an HSR away from the city centre, then what's the point? Build a bloody airport.

Posters are correct to question Maha government's flip flops on this matter. The HSR corp bend over backwards to accommodate their concerns, they agreed to the original plan as laid out in the JICA report and now appear to be backing out. I'll wait for a confirmation, but it is disappointing if true.

and why are people wanting a sonia gandhi type high command regime that treats state CMs like peons?

we need a bunch of independent chief ministers who stand on their own merits and rise, to prevent the prithviraj chauhan and hemchandra vikramaditya episode dont we?

Well, then there was no reason to reject Djinnah's plan of India as a lose federation of autonomous states was it?

[Karthik S]

so why exactly is having the HSR in BKC a must have for its success?

and why are people wanting a sonia gandhi type high command regime that treats state CMs like peons?

we need a bunch of independent chief ministers who stand on their own merits and rise, to prevent the prithviraj chauhan and hemchandra vikramaditya episode dont we?

Singha ji, The route has be decided, budget fixed, LA about to start. We had this confusion before, IIRC, the confusion is because of stupid FSI laws that state that even if we build structure underground, it should be taken into account for the FSI of the structure above ground, we really have some mindless laws.
Point is both NM and SP spoke to phatnavis regarding this and the issue seemed resolved. Now Abe will be visiting India in next few weeks for the laying the foundation stone (it's in Gj but regardless), now at this point do we want to go back to the Japanese for alternate route? As the report says it will cause a further 1.5 year delay. It's phatnavis's one dream building in BKC vs entire project, what should be given priority to?

[Singha]

Ok ok i will admit to not knowing much of mumbai unlike dilli
Never been to bkc yet

[nachiket]

This is the first I'm hearing of BKC being Mumbai's city center, whatever that is.

Meanwhile Phadnavis is being too Chankian for his own good. He suggests an alternative plot in Dharavi, knowing fully well that it would require thousands of slums to be demolished and lakhs of people rehabilitated. Is he going to give a guarantee that the city administration can do that, when nobody has succeeded so far? Maybe he should build his International FInancial Services whatever there instead if he wants to take up that challenge.

[Rishirishi]

This is the first I'm hearing of BKC being Mumbai's city center, whatever that is.

Meanwhile Phadnavis is being too Chankian for his own good. He suggests an alternative plot in Dharavi, knowing fully well that it would require thousands of slums to be demolished and lakhs of people rehabilitated. Is he going to give a guarantee that the city administration can do that, when nobody has succeeded so far? Maybe he should build his International FInancial Services whatever there instead if he wants to take up that challenge.

Such large projects open a great window of opportunity to clear the slum. Out of the 98 000 crores. 1000 cores could do wonders in Dharavi.

[nachiket]

Such large projects open a great window of opportunity to clear the slum. Out of the 98 000 crores. 1000 cores could do wonders in Dharavi.

And how do you think the Japanese are going to feel about this endeavor being added to the project at the last minute? Dharavi exists because it is a vote bank nobody wants to let go of. EVen rehabilitation projects where most of the residents would get to stay in apartment building built at the same location failed to take off due to crooked politicos of which there are many in Mumbai. This would require moving them out and building apartments for them elsewhere. Good luck.

[Singha]

Dharavi is closer to sobo financial area than bkc

[Karan M]

Is Phadnavis a good administrator or some p-sec too big for his boots? Whats the view from Mumbai? Maharashtra?

[morem]

Such large projects open a great window of opportunity to clear the slum. Out of the 98 000 crores. 1000 cores could do wonders in Dharavi.

And how do you think the Japanese are going to feel about this endeavor being added to the project at the last minute? Dharavi exists because it is a vote bank nobody wants to let go of. EVen rehabilitation projects where most of the residents would get to stay in apartment building built at the same location failed to take off due to crooked politicos of which there are many in Mumbai. This would require moving them out and building apartments for them elsewhere. Good luck.

Believe me it has been tried , they sell/ rent the new apartment and come back and live in the slum

[Singha]

i dont think there i any way someone can just uproot dharavi . just look at it. must be atleast 5 lakh people
https://earth.google.com/web/@19.043001 ... .00000085r
i got a short look in january trip, its going nowhere

jobs and social network are local, there is no value proposition in a apt given 20km away thats why they return

[Prasad]

Is Phadnavis a good administrator or some p-sec too big for his boots? Whats the view from Mumbai? Maharashtra?

OT but he's congie lite. Maharashtra hasn't paid RTE dues to hindu schools for nearly 4 years now. Temples funds are being looted by politicos in their boards.

[ritesh]

Dharavi is closer to sobo financial area than bkc

It is right next to bkc.

[prahaar]

Is Phadnavis a good administrator or some p-sec too big for his boots? Whats the view from Mumbai? Maharashtra?

OT but he's congie lite. Maharashtra hasn't paid RTE dues to hindu schools for nearly 4 years now. Temples funds are being looted by politicos in their boards.

Response in politics thread.

[Dipanker]

Nagpur-Mumbai Duronto Express derails near Kalyan, none injured

No one injured, how is that even possible with this pile up? Anyway that is good news.

[yensoy]

i dont think there i any way someone can just uproot dharavi . just look at it. must be atleast 5 lakh people
https://earth.google.com/web/@19.043001 ... .00000085r
i got a short look in january trip, its going nowhere

jobs and social network are local, there is no value proposition in a apt given 20km away thats why they return

And the fact that a lot of the jobs in Dharavi are in the unorganized light industry sector which can't be done from a multistorey flat. This is an ecosystem in itself, and a highly productive one. Other examples of such light industry based areas are Bhiwandi and Malegaon so viewing Dharavi purely from the prism of housing is not going anywhere.

[Singha]

stronger and non-telescoping LHB coaches in play.

[arshyam]

^^ ICF coaches are also non-telescoping. Telescoping means that in the event of an accident, coaches collapse in the horizontal axis into each other (like a telescope), which of course, leads to a greater loss of lives. One of the original rationales for the current 'ICF' design coaches was that it was non-telescoping, over the then existing designs.

The problem with ICF coaches is that they climb over each other, whereas with LHB, that is minimized to a great extent. One of the main reasons for this is the type of coupler used (the one that holds coaches together). Most ICF coaches use the screw coupler, which is manually 'screwed', and has limitations on the amount of force it can absorb during an accident/derailment. This results in the couplers breaking off and coaches climbing over each other. Whereas the centrally-buffered-couplers (CBC) used in LHB mitigates this to an great extent, leaving the formation more or less integrated in the event of a derailment/accident. Interestingly, most goods wagons have been using CBC for a long time, as they are very useful when shunting empty wagons and building a rake - CBC is an 'automated' coupler, push two coaches against each other strongly, the couplers will part and couple themselves automatically. That's called 'loose shunting', and is done for most types of goods consists. The one exception I know of are oil tankers - they all will sport a 'not to be loose shunted' sign prominently. The reason for that is rather obvious .

Ironically because of their very strength, the CBC couplers would introduce jerking when stopping/starting. You can observe this when a goods train starts from rest - the consist sort of 'stretches' itself rather loudly and violently. It's fine for goods wagons, but passengers inside will definitely feel it.

A few years ago, IR retro-fitted many ICF coaches with CBC to improve safety. It was definitely a move in the right direction, but it led to lots of complaints about jerking from passengers. From a relatively harmless coffee spill, the jerk sometimes is so powerful (probably because of the humongous length and weight of the ICF coaches) that you might think the train is derailed or something. A classic example was Charminar express - both its ICF rakes are CBC fitted. I am not sure if they solved this jerking issue, but for the past couple of years, all new ICF coaches are being dispatched only with CBC. And older coaches coming in for POH (overhaul) are also being retrofitted thus. Considering the newest ICF coach will serve for its codal life of 30 years, CBC is a must. I don't know how LHB coaches handle this jerking effect, perhaps they do automatically due to their markedly lesser weight compared to ICF coaches.

[Singha]

>>The problem with ICF coaches is that they climb over each other,

thats what i meant but my understanding of what telescoping meant was wrong.

[svenkat]

[Supratik]

they should immediately cut down on unviable rail services on NR.

[arshyam]

They just need to double down on the E-DFC and take the pressure off the mainline route through Kanpur and Allahabad.