India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

[Thakur_B]

Blue laser based submarine communication system
https://twitter.com/sjha1618/status/902513262779973634

Apart from the fact that the laser colour will be blue , what is this?

http://www.militaryaerospace.com/articles/2010/01/darpa-pushes-submarine-laser-communications-technology-for-asw-operations.html

[ramana]

Folks please download and read this report. It clears up lot of anxieties about OFB, DRDO and DGQA.....

2016-2017 Parliament committee report on OFB functioning Issued March 2017...

Many infrastructure projects to be completed in 2017. Lots of monitoring by even Parliament.
Maj. Gen Khanduri is going gang busters.



LINK

[JayS]

^^ from the report, pg 13:

Akash booster and sustainaer - existing capacity of production = 100/yr. Planned 500/yr by Dec'2018. Looks like delayed big time. Expected was March'2014.

Pinaka - existing capacity 1000/yr. Planned 5000/yr by Sept'18. Again looks like 3yr delayed.


Overall Inhouse RND expenditure for OFB is paltry <90Cr for this year. at 0.7% of overall turnover. And this is 3x increase since 2011-12.

"‘OFB has taken up in-house R&D projects for Indigenous Design and Development of Futuristic Infantry Combat Vehicle (FICV), Air Defence Gun, Electronic Fuze, 7.62x51 mm Assault Rifle, 155/52mm MGS, Dhanush SP Gun etc. "

The value of indigenisation vis-a-vis value of supplies for the last three years is as under:
2013-14 11123 9438 84.85%
2014-15 11364 10347 91.10%
2015-16 13047 11391 87.30%

Quality Check process for OFB:

‘OFB supplies ammunition to Indian Army duly inspected by Quality Control department of factory as well as DGQA (2nd Party Inspection Agency). The following tests are carried for a batch of ammunition production to ensure quality:

All input materials are tested in designated laboratories. 100% dimensional checking is done by factory

Sampling dimensional checking is done by DGQA
On an average, 21 lab tests are conducted by factory and DGQA
On an average, 4% rounds are fired by DGQA as part of dynamic firing
The ammunition batch is accepted and issued to Army only after it passes all the above tests. However, in spite of maintaining stringent checks of quality, during bulk exploitation of above ammunition by user, some defects/accidents are observed sometime. Important reasons for the defect in performance of ammunition are: Manufacturing deficiencies

Improper handling and storage of ammunition in ammunition depots
Improper maintenance of weapon system in weapon depots
Improper handling of ammunition and weapons during firing
In addition to above, reliability of design always remains an issue.

Responsibility of OFB is to manufacturing and up to dispatching of ammunition to Army and responsibility of storage, handling, maintenance of ammunitions lies with the Army which are equally responsible for defects/accidents.

Unlike other products, ammunition is single-use item. For this reason, 100% inspection including dynamic proof cannot be carried out. A principle of Statistical Quality Control (SQC) is employed for final acceptance of ammunition. SQC is inherently associated with both Producer’s risk and Customer’s risk. Hence such problems may surface during the process of exploitation.
System of accelerated exploitation of ammunition has been introduced for last two years, to have early feedback on performance of Ammunition. As per reports received on accelerated exploitation from Army, the performance of the ammunition has been found to be satisfactory.’

Interesting stuff related to DRDO. Among new projects in pipeline for strategic missile systems are Submarine launched CM and RudraM-III. What is this RudraM-III..? I believe we have seen it being referred to previously from the same report.

Too tired to post all the stuff now. But two key data point. Our defense RnD expenditure is 5-6% of our total Def expenditure and sum total of 0.1% of our GDP..!!

[ramana]

And also I think they need a skill up gradation in the OFB personnel.
Also did you note that OFB wants to go for mainly CNC machines which need an educated work force.

In US they have two year college after high school that allows some technical training absorption.

R&D spending has to increase along with procurement reform of bottle necks.
This single vendor thing will choke all modern acquisitions.

-
This Parliamentary report is better than the CAG reports which are just find faults and deficiencies.

It gives better picture.

[Karan M]

Its a question of attitude. No amount of investment can help an organization which is held hostage by antiquated GOI policies and a completely unionized set up. Which OFB manager will buck the system? Please review the CAG reports. Its a saga of mismanagement. Expensive equipment lies wasting because it has either been procured for the wrong purpose or was never installed or was defective and OFB did not bother rectify. The amount of wastage in ammunition manufacture is dismaying, there is literally no ammunition they have not screwed up in collosal amounts.
125mm tank ammo to firearms - all is wasted. Every year OFB literally does an Air India to the MOD budget. Its unbelievable how long OFB set up has remained like this.

In turn, successful DPSU or Indian achievements get completely wasted. INSAS is a famous example. A private firm like Tata SED would have worked with DRDO to gradually make the rifle world class. OFB simply could not

[ShauryaT]

How armed forces can aid defence manufacturing in India

Unless there is a conscious attempt at building organic capability for design and development within the armed forces, the problems that have plagued defence manufacturing in India will persist

In the aftermath of the 1971 war, the navy decided to develop a new class of frigates with enhanced anti-submarine warfare capabilities and advanced missiles and radars provided by the Soviet Union. The initial naval staff requirements for the frigates were drawn up in 1974. Nine years later, the INS Godavari was commissioned—delivered on schedule and in line with the Navy’s requirements by the Mazagon Docks. To put this in perspective, it is worth recalling that the army and the air force also embarked on two major efforts at indigenous development during the period 1972-82. However, the Main Battle Tank (MBT) and the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) took over three decades and still fell short of the requirements of the army and the air force.

A key factor accounting for these widely different outcomes was the presence in the navy of a small team of designers. As Mohan Ram recalls in his book, the human and technical resources available to them were limited and challenges of designing the ship were many. The most critical of these was the power plant needed to obtain a higher speed in a bigger ship. The navy’s existing frigates used steam propulsion, though gas propulsion was emerging as the cutting-edge technology. The Directorate of Naval Design (DND) advocated continuing with steam to ensure that the design challenges were kept manageable and came up with a brilliant solution to ensure that the top speed of the ship remained the same even if fuel consumption was higher. The navy’s engineering branch, however, pushed for a shift to gas propulsion. Following an intense debate, the naval staff decided to go with the DND’s plan. Thereafter the DND worked closely with the Mazagon Docks (the DPSU in charge of production) to ensure timely delivery of the frigates.

The successful completion of this project underscored the importance of the navy’s organic capability for design. This capability had been built systematically from 1951 onwards. In 1957, the navy began to recruit naval architects from the Indian Institute of Technology, Kharagpur and sending them to Britain for a two-year “Long Naval Architecture Course”. These officers became the nucleus of the DND.

By contrast the army and the air force did not build up a cadre of in-house design specialists. From the outset, the army relied on the ordnance factories and later the DRDO to perform these functions. The air force had some rudimentary capability in the early years, but gave up its designers to the DPSUs. The consequences were evident in the MBT and LCA projects. For one thing, while the navy adopted an approach of gradualism in developing the Godavari-class frigates, the army and air force sought to leapfrog to the frontiers of military technology with the MBT and LCA. If these services went along with the DRDO’s ambitious plans, it was because they had no institutional capacity to understand the technological challenges involved.

For another, the lack of such capacity directly contributed to the inordinate delay in both these projects. In the absence of a design interface between the users and developers, it proved exceedingly difficult to reconcile their competing views and imperatives of the users and the designers. Indeed, in both projects the absence of design capability within the services meant that they were seriously involved in the projects only after the prototypes had been rolled out by the DRDO and DPSUs. Thereafter too their ability to translate their operational requirements into design hobbled the projects.

To be sure, the DRDO and the DPSUs have to take the bulk of the blame for being over-ambitious in conception and extraordinarily tardy in delivery. But the army and air force contributed to these. The government can supplant the DRDO and DPSUs by bringing in private entities, but unless it consciously attempts to build organic capability for design and development within the services, the problems that plagued the MBT and LCA might persist.

Srinath Raghavan is senior fellow at the Centre for Policy Research, New Delhi.

[abhijatT]

What is LCA Air force Mk-III ?

Sanctioned in 2009 , total cost as of now is 2573 cr.

Page no:49

[ramana]

Extra I. It's the MkII

[Gyan]

Its a question of attitude. No amount of investment can help an organization which is held hostage by antiquated GOI policies and a completely unionized set up. Which OFB manager will buck the system? Please review the CAG reports. Its a saga of mismanagement. Expensive equipment lies wasting because it has either been procured for the wrong purpose or was never installed or was defective and OFB did not bother rectify. The amount of wastage in ammunition manufacture is dismaying, there is literally no ammunition they have not screwed up in collosal amounts.
125mm tank ammo to firearms - all is wasted. Every year OFB literally does an Air India to the MOD budget. Its unbelievable how long OFB set up has remained like this.

In turn, successful DPSU or Indian achievements get completely wasted. INSAS is a famous example. A private firm like Tata SED would have worked with DRDO to gradually make the rifle world class. OFB simply could not

If one reads the CAG & PAC reports then it is evident that almost all delays (of many years) are bureaucratic delays regarding file pushing, wasting time in issuing & finalizing tenders and or Civil works. Practically no delay due to technical difficulty unless OFB forgets to order the machines. OFB is finding difficult to do basic things like manufacturing adequate Nos of MMGs, HMGs, AGLs, Fuses etc.

[VinodTK]

Telangana may set up 'world's largest' incubator for startups in defence

Hyderabad: The Telangana government is mulling to set up an exclusive incubator for startups working in defence sector, said state IT and Industries Minister K T Rama Rao said here on Thursday.

"We have series of discussions with the Scientific Advisor to Raksha Mantri (Defence Minister) and with the support of Centre we will be launching a Defence Electronics and Defence focused incubator in Hyderabad," Rama Rao said in his inaugural address of "Deftronics-2017", a two-day conclave of defence and aerospace electronics industry.

"I think it would be an important initiative and a step forward in ensuring the completely leverage our indigenous capabilities of our youngsters who wanted to come out with more and more success stories out of India," the Minister added.

He also said under the state's "Innovation Policy", the government is planning to develop a million square feet work space to accommodate startups across different sectors.

"Possibly we are going to launch the worlds' largest incubator by next year. This would be a 3.5 lakh sq ft area facility accommodating 1,000 startups all at one roof," he added.

He said the capital Hyderabad is shaping up as a hub for aerospace and defence manufacturing and there are number of MSMEs working in these sectors.

"We are as a state eyeing almost 7.5 million of electronic products (manufacturing) by 2020. This is an ambitious target in the next three years. I do believe that we are well poised. We also hope attract almost USD 3 billion investments in the electronic system design and manufacturing (ESDM) space by 2020," added KTR.

Earlier during the inaugural session, Scientific Advisor to Defence Minister G Satheesh Reddy said 80 per cent of the components being used in Akash Missile are manufactured by private companies.

A representative of India Electronics and Semiconductor Association said that the defence electronics trade is expected touch USD 80 billion from the current levels of USD 20 billion.

[JayS]

MoD forcefully retired 13 babus from OFB.

http://theprint.in/2017/08/31/defence-m ... mance/amp/

[Vips]

Firing just 13 babus is not going to solve any problem. Just Privatize the OFB and all DPSU's to have a thriving Indian MIC. Till it is done it is just criminal wastage of national resources.

[ramana]

This is first step. Relax. Give some time.

The Union has to taken care of next.
The MoD babus who stall the files and delay, reduce funds, blacklist suppliers all need to be weeded out.

[sum]

Firing just 13 babus is not going to solve any problem. Just Privatize the OFB and all DPSU's to have a thriving Indian MIC. Till it is done it is just criminal wastage of national resources.

Things dont really work that way ( black or white) in real life, esp in a complex situation like in India and esp when it involves 60 years of entrenched labour unions.

Its a good 1st step and am sure many such steps will be known in days to come

[Rakesh]

Vips, there is no magic wand that will change the situation overnight. Slowly but steady is the only way. You cannot change 70+ years of ingrained thought overnight. Not going to happen.

[Gaur]

Hope this is the right place to post this.

Telengana mulls to set up incubator for startups in defence

http://www.moneycontrol.com/news/business/telengana-mulls-to-set-up-incubator-for-startups-in-defence-2374545.html

[jayasimha]

http://www.defencenews.in/article/DRDO% ... oat-263499

DRDO’s Black Box can eject from crashing plane & float

[jayasimha]

http://www.dnaindia.com/jaipur/report-2 ... my-2520834

2 state villages chosen by DRDO for setting up radar to track enemy.

Two little known villages in Alwar and Pali districts will soon gain strategic importance as they have been selected by the Defence Ministry’s Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) for setting up radars to track enemy missiles.

[Vips]

Reliance Ind acquires Kemrock in auction-sale by banks.

Billionaire Mukesh Ambani’s Reliance Industries has bought over distressed bank assets of Vadodara-based Kemrock Industries and Exports Ltd, a plastics and composites maker, through an e-auction.

Kemrock manufactured fibre-reinforced composites that were used for the aerospace industry. A 2013 news report by Reuters quoted Kalpesh Patel, CMD, Kemrock, saying that the factory was running at just 15-20 per cent capacity as banks refused to lend further working capital to the business.

With this acquisition, Reliance, for its part, will now get a foothold in the composites and carbon fibre business.

Composites are used in a variety of applications and industries such as renewable energy, mass transportation, infrastructure and a host of other industrial products. Additionally, a key raw material for the business is petrochemicals, of which RIL is among the biggest producers in India. (Now Reliance will scale up the capacity of the plant to a global size)

[JayS]

Good to see Reliance buying kemrock. I hope they scale it up and help proliferate Carbon composites in India. Reliance/Tatas/Adanis should start picking up tier2/3 suppliers all over the world now. They come few tens of millions a piece and have key specific capabilities which in isolation dont look much but when integrated nicely a number of them, they can bea very good launchpad for these players directly into international aerospace supply chain. All they have to do is losen the purse, set up over-arching organisation and provide engineering capability which most of these companies lack and thus work suboptimally in isolation.

[nam]

This is one reason I never understood. Why doesn't Indian private companies buy out some of the tier 2 or tier 3 companies in place like Europe. Even GOI can do it indirectly by lending interest free loans and let private companies buy them.

To work around IP, create a subsidiary of these companies in India and manufacture in scale. If not the companies, Reliance,Tata, L&T can easily hire the people and bring them to India.

Fundamentally the core issue is GOI is content with imports. Just not interested to build local MIC, like the Chinese are.

[Gyan]

Folks please download and read this report. It clears up lot of anxieties about OFB, DRDO and DGQA.....

2016-2017 Parliament committee report on OFB functioning Issued March 2017...

Many infrastructure projects to be completed in 2017. Lots of monitoring by even Parliament.
Maj. Gen Khanduri is going gang busters.



LINK

Anyone who likes to read boring stuff, pls read the details of amount allocated to OFB and the actual amount spent. This will show how slow the projects are running and there will be further delays beyond anticipated completion dates, all due to bureaucratic reasons. Further most of the amount spent in OFB is T-72/90 related ie to increase its production, increase spare parts production, ammo etc. Was it considered in LCC (Life cycle costs??)

[Vips]

Ashok Leyland signs MOU with Russia’s Rosoboronexport to supply tracked vehicles to Indian Armed Forces.

Ashok Leyland Defence Systems (ALDS) signed a Memorandum of Understanding (MOU) on Cooperation with Russia's Rosoboronexport, on the sidelines of the International Military Technical Forum Army - 2017 held at Kubinka, near Moscow, on 25th August 2017. The Indian delegation to this forum was led by Ashok Gupta, Secretary (Defence Production) Government of India. Rosoboronexport (ROE) is the only state organisation in Russia for export of the entire range of military products and technologies. ROE represents Russian companies who are manufacturers of Infantry Fighting Vehicles and Main Battle Tanks, currently working with the Indian Army.

ELCOM Group is emerging as a significant player in strategic electronics, avionics and tactical communication globally. Ashok Leyland (AL) has been a supplier of Logistics and Special Role Vehicles to the Indian Army for the past 25 years.

Congratulating ALDS, ELCOM and the Rosoboronexport team, Vinod K Dasari, Managing Director of Ashok Leyland, said, “Ashok Leyland is fully committed to making Hon’ble Prime Minister's ‘Make in India’ in Defence sector, a resounding success. The signing of this MOU is a step in the direction as this new partnership allows Ashok Leyland to provide all types of Tracked Vehicle Solutions to the Armed Forces”

Signing the MOU on behalf of ALDS, Amandeep Singh, Head - Defence, Ashok Leyland, said, "We are happy that Rosoboronexport has chosen ALDS and ELCOM as its partners in India to address the Tracked Vehicle Upgrade Programs of Indian Armed Forces. The issue of indigenisation and availability of service and parts, which has been an area of concern, will now be addressed as ALDS and ELCOM will be responsible for manufacturing in India and also for providing life cycle support.”

[Karan M]

Check out the MSMC/JVPC - very little recoil! Looks to be a winner!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sgsyU48ODp0

[Karan M]

The recently announced policy on ‘Strategic
Partnership’ by the Defence Minister is the
most welcome decision of the Government
which would help the Indian manufacturers
of arms and ammunition to have long-term
assured growth avenues.
Currently we are the sole manufacturer
of HMX, RDX, TNT and their compounded
products in the private sector and also have
a large Composite Propellant plant. Most of
our products have been tested and validated
by various approved defence agencies.
We are also working on setting up a world-
class project for manufacture of Bi-modular
Charge Systems and fully integrated
Rockets which in the long run would play
a crucial role in considerably reducing the
Country’s foreign exchange outgo and will
help the Company to increase the return on
our Capital employed.

https://www.solargroup.com/Uploads/File ... r%20AR.pdf

[ramana]

Vips, We discussed on this forum in 2013, about the odd thing of Kemrock not getting bank loans to do their business and wondered if AKA was squeezing them out of business as a CBM to Pakis.

[Karan M]

^^ Indian MOD under Saint was all talk and no action. SMEs were scathing about state of affairs when supplying to services and MOD. All investment in spares, products, and no orders.

[ramana]

http://idrw.org/india-successfully-test ... hsld-bomb/


Note the guidance kit is DRDO developed kit. It's after Sudarshan was scrapped as this was in development. Israeli Griffin kit did not work with HSLD as the aerodynamic coefficients were designed for 500 kg NATO std bomb. I like HSLD as it has more explosive fill and has very good concrete penetration. All those Fizzleya aircraft shelters will be toast.
If DRDO can make this kit work with the new 500 kg GP bomb it will reduce the logistics trail.

[Karthik S]

Good collection of equipment, apologies if posted before.

[Yagnasri]

Best way to get better management and clear picture of HAL may divide it into several companies under a Holding company with the subsidiaries having divested large part of their shares to pubic. Land, petents, tech etc can be held by holding company which will do research and devlopment and receive all GoI grants etc. Only assembly will be done by the subsiadiaries and major components will be provided by 3rd party supplier. One exclusive subsidiary for exports only. It is the best way to bring more capital, more accountability and better admintration and better management of various activities. Example if we have HAL Helicaptors it can always do better. Entire Screw driver activities like SU30mki Hawk can be done by one sub. Then we know how much real and original and how much is rubbish.

[Kakarat]

An Interesting initiative for Aerospace development in India

MISSION aerofi (Mission Aerospace Foundation of India)

They have also put a requirement for a chief designer for design and development of a light business jet

[JayS]

An Interesting initiative for Aerospace development in India

MISSION aerofi (Mission Aerospace Foundation of India)

They have also put a requirement for a chief designer for design and development of a light business jet

I am sceptical of organisations like this.

[Zynda]

^^+1. Just checked their website. Latest news article seems to be from 2015. Not much seems to be happening off lately...not sure how recent that job opening post is. But will investigate further...

[JayS]

^^+1. Just checked their website. Latest news article seems to be from 2015. Not much seems to be happening off lately...not sure how recent that job opening post is. But will investigate further...

I would say, don't waste time on it.

Fun story. I was once offered job by similar type of group. I was desperate and would have tried anything at that point. So I went for a meeting. The investor guy (he was a genuine serial entrepreneur, not one of those Chain marketing luring types fake folks which are dime a dozen on linkedIn) who met me, was trying to impress me by telling me how he has some very senior retired IAF/IN folks on-board and how he just a day before had meeting with RM and all other stuff like that. He would claim they will have Fighter proto better than LCA flying in 3yrs and an Aircraft carrier in 5yrs. ADA was a group of bunch of idiots for him. HE wanted to make his own CFD SW and even asked me for nice sounding Sanskrit name for the SW. Obviously I left the meeting laughing, but also wondering how this idiot made millions in Technology (IT basically) in USA.

[ramana]

Guys why post fake news in this thread?

[Cosmo_R]

This struck me as interesting in the context of MII

http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/return-p ... ok-1748359

"Maj. Tango would be armed with his M4A1 5.56-mm carbine, the rest of the assault team with a mix of M4A1s and standard-issue Israeli Tavor TAR-21 assault rifles, Instalaza C90 disposable grenade launchers and Galil sniper rifles. Batteries on night-vision equipment were checked and other devices were charged too," the book states.

Are these made in India? I hope so. If not, we've got a long way to go to make things.

[ramana]

No they are not. Mix of eclectic make.
Commandos usually have an eclectic set of individual weapons.

Cant make everything. Some times have to buy limited qty items.

[Zynda]

[quote="JayS"][/quote]
viewtopic.php?f=24&t=7589&p=2213001#p2213001

[Thakur_B]

This struck me as interesting in the context of MII

http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/return-p ... ok-1748359

"Maj. Tango would be armed with his M4A1 5.56-mm carbine, the rest of the assault team with a mix of M4A1s and standard-issue Israeli Tavor TAR-21 assault rifles, Instalaza C90 disposable grenade launchers and Galil sniper rifles. Batteries on night-vision equipment were checked and other devices were charged too," the book states.

Are these made in India? I hope so. If not, we've got a long way to go to make things.

Yes. Punj Lloyd has set up a plant in Guna.

[Vips]

German Dry Docks looks to acquire Bharati Defence.