Artillery: News & Discussion

[Manish_P]

47 kms. Nice. One could bombard lahore cantoment direct from Amritsar cantonment

[Pratyush]

Arjun syndrome kicking in.

Is the extra 2 to 3 tonnes acceptable to Indian Army om the march?

Is 2 km range worth the extra weight?

And the 2t litre chamber consumes more charge. Does it add to logistics trail?

To me the gun looks like a fortress gun.

The army will pick up the gun cause they will not be given a choice of import.

[Thakur_B]

Pzh 2000 that hit a target 56 km away using vlap ammo does 41km using base bleed. ATAGS will shatter all long range records with VLAP. Hell, if Bofors experience in kargil is anything to go by, where the 39 caliber gun was reaching ranges of 40 km instead of 24, ATAGS if fired in high altitude areas using base bleed may achieve 70-75 km ranges.

Edit: The increase in range at Kargil up to 40 km was using base bleed round and not the regular round. https://medium.com/@der_Wille/the-natio ... 8b6874e3cf. Still, an increase in range by a third, i.e. up to 60-65 km using base bleed in mountain areas can be expected.

[Vidur]

well the cat is out of bag now...4 tons heavier tauba tauba ... no titanium tauba tauba .. extra charges needed tauba tauba

i can see the shadows of import hawks swooping in with talons up

someone will right away demand a weight reducion of 3t while keeping the chamber.

from link above- the vast sum of money just in capex and then in opex over 30 yrs ensure none but Namo can save ATAGS from the hawks talons. its just too ripe a plate of meat for lutyens hawks not to pounce on
After the gun successfully completes development and firing trials, the army is likely to procure at least 2,000 ATAGS. At an estimated Rs 15 crore apiece, that will result in Rs 30,000 crore in business for the production eco-system, benefiting a large number of private defence firms.

Pls don't scaremonger. The army and therefore the nation has not been able to buy any artillery for almost 2 decades despite atleast 4 competitions. We have become the laughing stock of the world. ATAGS is meant for domestic production to cater to the towed gun requirement. Unless there is a big policy change what you are talking about won't happen. Some changes in parameters after testing is a standard procedure. Otherwise why test ?

[nam]

Pakis stopped plans for Turkish towed artillery because of weight issues.it is 18 tonnes.

My guess this has to do with their existing FAT is not able to pull the gun up the mountain roads.Probably didn't want to replace their FAT.

We are using the new Ashok Leyland FAT. Hope it goes fine in the winter mountain trials .

[Aditya G]

Pakis stopped plans for Turkish towed artillery because of weight issues.it is 18 tonnes.

My guess this has to do with their existing FAT is not able to pull the gun up the mountain roads.Probably didn't want to replace their FAT.

We are using the new Ashok Leyland FAT. Hope it goes fine in the winter mountain trials .

Interesting. How many Turkish guns did they eventually buy?

On paper both Tata and AL FATs have more horsepower than the Scania trucks... so fingers crossed!

[Aditya_V]

Its interesting, as per Paki forums its 100 going to 200, as per other internet sources 18-30 Panters. As per the Internet Pakistan has edge in Artillery but I think in reality something is not adding up. If Pakistan did have the advantages in Artillery as the Internet suggests, the 2003 Ceasefire agreement which was signed after 15 years of shelling on the LOC would have been flushed down the Toilet.

[nam]

Interesting. How many Turkish guns did they eventually buy?

On paper both Tata and AL FATs have more horsepower than the Scania trucks... so fingers crossed!

I think in the low 20's or 30s. Don't know the exact number.

Read on the Paki forums that due to weight issues, they decided not to purchase further. They had plans to locally produce it.

It is the torque which is important to pull such heavy load. AL FAT have 1400 N.

[Singha]

for those who speak of GPS guided smart shells, the excalibur started off at $150,000 *each* and may have dropped to around $40,000 now.

for that money we can buy 100 basic shells and flatten a whole village on the side.

True, but some times a single shell hitting in the first salvo has a greater impact than a whole battery firing for hrs and scoring just a single hit.

GPS guided means it will home to a given location from some spotter. if no spotter then no chance of striking any mobile or opportunity targets whether we have GPS or not.
i see no reason why a salvo of 6 cheap shells will deviate so much as to not hit this very same location from the same co-ordinates supplied by the spotting agent.

GPS guided does not mean a smart weapon able to locate its target.

[brar_w]

Correct, GPS is not an autonomous seeker that can discriminate targets. GPS guided shells are primarily there to aid on missions such as Close in support (alternative to CAS from a helicopter or fixed wing aircraft) or when relatively smaller number of systems are required to create effects, provided there are eyes on target.

[Pratyush]

The issue with unguided shell is dispersion and tumble. Which results in shell missing the intended impact point. Furthermore, the flight of the shell is also effected by prevailing wind at all altitudes. The a shell fired on pure ballistic aim will not be able to compensate for. However, some form of guidance will be able to resolve these issues provided the shell has sufficient forward momentum and is at a high enough altitude.

G P S is not a silver bullet. But it is better than every other fire plan.

The other point of note is that even for the unguided shell the same will require a forward observer or a drone to provided coordinate to the arty battery before the first round is fired.

[niran]

GPS arty system came about advent of political correctness which means minimize co-lateral damage, say there is a machine gun nest at such and such coordinates bring it down, GPS would blow the nest with minimal collateral damage (most probably goat shed in IA case) well i do not see expending 50K USD for a puki goat shed is wise, just flatten the area with 10 shells

[niran]

The issue with unguided shell is dispersion and tumble. Which results in shell missing the intended impact point. Furthermore, the flight of the shell is also effected by prevailing wind at all altitudes. The a shell fired on pure ballistic aim will not be able to compensate for. However, some form of guidance will be able to resolve these issues provided the shell has sufficient forward momentum and is at a high enough altitude.

have you not heard of Fire control computer? it calculate all parameters in seconds

[brar_w]

In instances when there is no close air support available, GPS may just be the difference allowing artillery to come in and contribute. Collateral damage does not necessary always mean civilians and civilian infrastructure but could also mean blue forces. As I have mentioned in the past its importance is decidedly more in an expeditionary environment where you may not always have access to call in CAS in a timely fashion, or you may not have the logistical train to maintain a large ground based fires footprint. It allows option and in such a case a better cost comparison is with a Brimstone, Hellfire or guided rocket launched from a rotary winged asset overhead and how much you are willing to pay to have it there all the time. The reason it is there as an option, and has not replaced every artillery shell in the inventory of those that deploy it is because of this niche capability. It is not a one size fits all solution.

[niran]

In instances when there is no close air support available, GPS may just be the difference allowing artillery to come in and contribute. Collateral damage does not necessary always mean civilians and civilian infrastructure but could also mean blue forces. As I have mentioned in the past its importance is decidedly more in an expeditionary environment where you may not always have access to call in CAS in a timely fashion, or you may not have the logistical train to maintain a large artillery footprint. It allows option and in such a case a better cost comparison is with a Brimstone, or Hellfire launched from a rotary winged asset over head and how much you are willing to pay to have it there all the time.

agree sir the operative word is <<bolded part>> but then there already system in place which does not need GPS.
BTW i regularly dream of at 8000 plus arty going from midnight to dawn followed by armored division blitzing through slicing pukes into pieces.

[Pratyush]

Niran, the FCC cannot compensate for the action of the shell once it leaves the gun. Which is what on board guidance is meant to deal with.

[kit]

47 kms. Nice. One could bombard lahore cantoment direct from Amritsar cantonment

.. get 500 guns in position and fire away .. Guess thats how SKo feels about the NKo artillery !!

[JayS]

47 kms. Nice. One could bombard lahore cantoment direct from Amritsar cantonment

.. get 500 guns in position and fire away .. Guess thats how SKo feels about the NKo artillery !!

reminds me of Age of Empires game. I used to love playing with Brit civilization because they had trebuchets. Just line up a lot of them and flatten castles in matter of seconds. Also awesome for defence if you line them up behind your walls.

[Aditya G]

....As per the Internet Pakistan has edge in Artillery but I think in reality something is not adding up. If Pakistan did have the advantages in Artillery as the Internet suggests, the 2003 Ceasefire agreement which was signed after 15 years of shelling on the LOC would have been flushed down the Toilet.

Exactly.

Pak Army has edge in terms of Self Propelled Tracked arty. But they cannot match IA for quantity as such.

I will research their field artillery trucks.

[Bart S]

I don't think the GPS shells (at least as originally envisioned) were intended to be used against dynamic or moving targets. The purpose of the GPS guidance is basically to make the shell more accurate, basically a trajectory correction system. And though one could use a deluge of cheaper shells to flatten the area, not every situation will allow you to do that in the heat of war. If you are in a tight situation and have to take down a critical threat/high value target and scoot in 5 mins, and/or you have limited guns/ammo, basically one or two shots on target possible, the GPS shell is probably worth the premium. Which is why it is always going to be useful, though in a much smaller proportion to conventional unguided shells.

[abhik]

We have bought Russian laser guided shells in the past. So let's not pretend we have some allergy to precision guided shells. Also PGK fuze type solutions (which we ourselves are developing) are bringing the cost down significantly.

[Manish_Sharma]

Pls don't scaremonger.

Doodh ka jalaa, chhach bhi foonk kar peeta hai !

(One burnt from hot milk, drinks cold lassi also with trepidation)

Just read through Arjun threads specially circa 2010 - 11 and you will see all the fears have come true.

I guarantee you this is exactly how it will play out in next few years.

[vasu raya]

GPS based shells are very relevant in mountainous terrain, M2K with precision bombs did better in Kargil., btw ATAGS just subsumed the Pinaka-1 range?

the other issue with imperfect ammunition causing the muzzle strikes, is there a way to measure such outliers in the field before feeding it to the gun? I remember a picture where Brahmos was being measured for CG using a lift during its QC process.

regular Bofors uses a 3 Shell cartridge while the ATAGS uses a 6 shell cartridge, so one cannot isolate individual shells here

[Singha]

the german co supplied bearings for dhanush is hopefully not in picture for ATAGS. OFB had to sign a paper saying the dhanush would not fire cluster munition, which is precisely the 'cargo shell' anti personnel munition I think (?)

or does it not count as unlike cluster bombs these munitions are explode on impact ?

[Bishwa]

As per Major Praveen Sahwney in the article "Himalayan Conflict Forges Artillery Doctrine"

"Once stabilized (in Siachen) , the FH-77B has shown itself to be both accurate and consistent, achieving a range of 42km from altitudes of 12,000ft using High Explosive Extended Range (HEER) base bleed ammunition."

High altitude seems to have assisted the bofors range by 1.75

So if ATAGS is giving 47 KM in the plains with HEER, its range in high altitude will be a phenomenal 82KM.

[Prem]

As per Major Praveen Sahwney in the article "Himalayan Conflict Forges Artillery Doctrine"
High altitude seems to have assisted the bofors range by 1.75
So if ATAGS is giving 47 KM in the plains with HEER, its range in high altitude will be a phenomenal 82KM.

Can it slaughter Skardu snakes from Kargil heights with this range ?

[Thakur_B]

As per Major Praveen Sahwney in the article "Himalayan Conflict Forges Artillery Doctrine"

"Once stabilized (in Siachen) , the FH-77B has shown itself to be both accurate and consistent, achieving a range of 42km from altitudes of 12,000ft using High Explosive Extended Range (HEER) base bleed ammunition."

High altitude seems to have assisted the bofors range by 1.75

So if ATAGS is giving 47 KM in the plains with HEER, its range in high altitude will be a phenomenal 82KM.

Bishwa ji, 47 km range from ATAGS is already done using base bleed round. Expect increase in range by a third at high altitude.

PS: Btw, wasn't ATAGS officially given a name?

[Pratyush]

I have been looking at the available picture of both the models of atags gun for a recoil base plate that most 155 mm guns have. But have not been able to see a clear picture of a gun in firing position form the front.

The reason why I am asking is that the bharat 52 by kalyani has been demonstrated with the base plate. So should the kalyani stage that shares the carriage with bharat 52 not also have this recoil plate.

[Manish_P]

As per Major Praveen Sahwney in the article "Himalayan Conflict Forges Artillery Doctrine"
High altitude seems to have assisted the bofors range by 1.75
So if ATAGS is giving 47 KM in the plains with HEER, its range in high altitude will be a phenomenal 82KM.

Can it slaughter Skardu snakes from Kargil heights with this range ?

It will need to be kept almost at the LOC border

You can Check using this tool - http://obeattie.github.io/gmaps-radius/ ... &u=km&r=80

[Gyan]

As the round will go higher, hence range multiple might be more than 1.75

[Pratyush]

People are already fantasizing about ultra long range guns. I am reminded of the paris gun that had a range of 70 kam and the shell was launched to such a hight that it was the first man made object to reach space.

Interesting, but the range makes some form of trajectory correction an absolute must.

[ramana]

Vidur, is Indian Army fully behind ATAGS? Not just range, but weight and ammo. It makes huge difference for strike corps.

Maybe holding corps can use them.

[sudeepj]

In instances when there is no close air support available, GPS may just be the difference allowing artillery to come in and contribute. Collateral damage does not necessary always mean civilians and civilian infrastructure but could also mean blue forces. As I have mentioned in the past its importance is decidedly more in an expeditionary environment where you may not always have access to call in CAS in a timely fashion, or you may not have the logistical train to maintain a large ground based fires footprint. It allows option and in such a case a better cost comparison is with a Brimstone, Hellfire or guided rocket launched from a rotary winged asset overhead and how much you are willing to pay to have it there all the time. The reason it is there as an option, and has not replaced every artillery shell in the inventory of those that deploy it is because of this niche capability. It is not a one size fits all solution.

GPS guided shells can be very useful in reducing logistics requirements and as Brar pointed out, perhaps even reducing CAS duties. Imagine a scenario, where soldiers are out on an area domination patrol and run into an ambush and need support. This can be provided using guided munitions from an airplane or a drone (both expensive) or a guided shell from an artillery unit. Given the extended ranges of these guns and potentially unlimited firepower at their disposal (unlike drones and airplanes) this can be the more economical solution, even at $50,000 a pop. Consider the economics of maintaining a fast jet up in the air, consider the cost of even the most low end guided munition delivered from air etc. and my guess is this will immediately pop out as the more economical solution.

Finally, consider the logistics requirements in a place such as Afghanistan where states like Pakistan extract a strategic price for logistics support and the appeal of guided munitions goes up.

[Singha]

Wuff wuff saar but drones and planes can use tv or laser guided weapons. Gps as already noted is no great for such running battles like cheen troops on atv and buggies chasing our men

[Vidur]

Vidur, is Indian Army fully behind ATAGS? Not just range, but weight and ammo. It makes huge difference for strike corps.

Maybe holding corps can use them.

Artillery is a critical and urgent need and army has made several attempts to try to get it. They have also tried to go for domestic options. Dhanush is one example. They have also tried to help a domestic pvt manufacturer with testing facilities but that did not happen. ATAGS is a good and fast option and they are keen for it to succeed. Testing process is on. Let it be completed.

[brar_w]

Wuff wuff saar but drones and planes can use tv or laser guided weapons. Gps as already noted is no great for such running battles like cheen troops on atv and buggies chasing our men

Not all fires would be required to strike moving, armored or soft moving targets. There may be plenty of support needs when blue forces are in close proximity and precision strike may need to be called in to provide assistance.

[ramana]

For Comparison 7.2" howitzer , Heavy artillery with Indian Army in 1965.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BL_7.2-inch_howitzer

This 7.2" howitzer had about 15.5Km range and was held at 2/corps as corps reserve.

ATAGS will be 2-3 tons more has 3 times the range

[Pratyush]

Wuff wuff saar but drones and planes can use tv or laser guided weapons. Gps as already noted is no great for such running battles like cheen troops on atv and buggies chasing our men

But won't BONUS type anti armour rounds or for that matters cargo rounds with cluster munition help.

[Prem]

Can it slaughter Skardu snakes from Kargil heights with this range ?

It will need to be kept almost at the LOC border
You can Check using this tool - http://obeattie.github.io/gmaps-radius/ ... &u=km&r=80

Bad that Skardu comes out as 87 KM from nearest Kargil point. We need to move LOC bit further Westward.

[Manish_P]

Yes sir . Need to do that Westward pushing all along the LOC.

For instance move down south below Poonch and see Isloo and Pindi come tempting close to range