India - South & North Korea Thread

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 09 Sep 2017 03:14

April 2017: India bans all trade except food & medicines

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 09 Sep 2017 03:17

In 2015, India hosted the North Korean Foreign Minister in an attempt to deliver the Pyongyang leadership a message to delink from Pakistan's nuclear programme. Hence, New Delhi's current action is significant ... gazette also suggests the expulsion of any North Korean government representative found violating the UN sanctions. Training of North Korean individuals in advanced physics, aeronautical engineering, and nuclear engineering, and police training all banned. Any export of arms of course prohibited.

Read more at:
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/art ... aign=cppst

And as May 1..
North Korea cut off by 3rd biggest trading partner
by Ivana Kottasová and Sugam Pokharel @ivanakottasova

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 09 Sep 2017 03:18

But as NoKo develops 100 thermonukes, India will have to knuckle under, hain?

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 09 Sep 2017 03:52

UlanBatori wrote:I

And as May 1..
North Korea cut off by 3rd biggest trading partner
by Ivana Kottasová and Sugam Pokharel @ivanakottasova

No sulplise about the FIRST, but did you notice from that article who NoKo's SECOND largest trading partner is?

No, not Iran or Russia.

Saudi Arabia.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 09 Sep 2017 06:54

No wonder they are busy developing the Bum-e-Is***

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 09 Sep 2017 12:59

Militarily, NoKo is too strong to be Denuked
It will take a full scale war with a risk of an attack and some destruction of SoKo, Japan, Guam and a possible N weapons attack at Continental US
SoKo had better be careful, Korea might get unified again, but not in the way they had imagined

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 09 Sep 2017 21:23

Huge parade to thank the nuclear and missile scientists

https://twitter.com/afp/status/905709927854952448

Noko may be odd but not poor or dumb

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 09 Sep 2017 21:28

They have secured themselves in long run and safely past the wire now like pakistan

Proof will be toning down of threats

IndraD · Post by **IndraD** » 09 Sep 2017 21:32

Made in North Korea: Business in a 'communist monarchy'
China is the biggest trade partner of NoKo

A few years ago, a young Swedish man crossed the border into North Korea. In his bags were packed spools of sewing thread and large amounts of cash.
Such is the nature of doing business in the world's most closed economy.
Tor Rauden Kallstigen was the fresh faced co-founder of Noko Jeans - the first Western clothing label to brand itself Made in North Korea.
"In North Korea, they don't produce any materials," says Kallstigen. "Any buttons, any threads, any anything - you have to send everything into the country."
And even then, there were still some things that couldn't just be sent in.
"Since it was such a small project, we brought the cash for the production with us because it was too complicated to do it the ordinary bank way," he explains.
North Korea isn't the first place most people would think of setting up a business. Run by a repressive Stalinist regime, with power passed from father to son, it's been called a communist monarchy.
Ordinary citizens have almost no links with the outside world - internet and international phone lines are officially restricted to the ruling elite.
And if that's not enough to make you think twice, consider the practical difficulties. A domestic economy that has been eaten away by decades of centralised economic planning, with roads in poor repair, an unreliable power supply, and a workforce that is subject to annual food shortages.
That's before you've worked out how to circumvent the sanctions slapped on the country by the United Nations and major economies like the US and South Korea for developing nuclear weapons.
And yet, North Korea is managing to attract foreign investment.
The country keeps its economic data, like so many other things, secret.
But the UN Conference on Trade and Development estimates that foreign direct investment in 2010 was $38m (£24m; 29m euros) and that the total amount invested in North Korea over the past few decades comes to $1.475bn (£940m; 1.13bn euros).
Most of that comes from China.
North Korea sits right on its doorstep and reportedly has vast natural resources - coal and anthracite, timber, iron, gold and copper - that China hungers for.
Chinese manufacturing companies have also been investing in special economic zones (SEZs) - set up as self-contained bubbles of capitalism along the North Korean-Chinese border.
The oldest of these, at Rason in the far north-east gives a taste of what investing in this creaking economy means in practice.
"All SEZs need sufficient power, transport links and water," says Andray Abrahamian, executive director of the Choson Exchange, a volunteer-based consultancy group that trains North Koreans in business skills.
"The [first] two of those have been problems at Rason for the past 20 years. Imagine that - a special economic zone, which existed for 20 years and they never bothered to pave the road to the [Chinese] border. But it's getting fixed now and that's really important."
It's the Chinese companies themselves who are doing this work, though, and connecting Rason to a power supply across the border, not the North Korean government, says Mr Abrahamian.
"At least when the Chinese say, 'This is going to be an investment zone,' they put in electricity and phone lines and sewers," says Paul French, a China-based markets analyst and author of a history of Korea, The Paranoid Peninsula.
"The North Koreans just take some fields and say, 'This is going to be an investment zone' and expect it to look like Chicago in a few years."
China doesn't publish details of its economic relationship with North Korea, but the Bank of Korea estimates trade between the two Communist nations has been steadily rising, and reached $3.5bn (£2.2bn / 2.7bn euros) in 2010.
South Korea, meanwhile, has set up the Gaesong Industrial Complex with its northern neighbour, which now employs 50,000 people and contributed heavily to $1.7bn (£1.1bn / 1.3bn euros) of trade between the two Koreas last year.
Other countries are interested too. German, Russian, Indian and Thai companies are already trading with North Korea. There are reports of Australian interest in mining and British involvement in finance.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/mobile/magazine-17046941

ldev · Post by **ldev** » 09 Sep 2017 21:55

So China is comfortable with a thermo nuclear armed North Korea on it's border just as it is comfortable with a nuclear armed Pakistan on it's border.

BUT it is not comfortable with a unified Korea under South Korean control AND US armed forces on it's border. That tell's you everything about how China has always orchestrated the nuclear arming of it's 2 proxies. The only reason for this comfort is that both these countries are it's allies just as the US is comfortable with a nuclear armed UK and France. Just as the US created a constellation of allies with nukes, China is now doing the same. One has to say to it's credit the former USSR did not do any such thing and it's nukes even if based overseas were always firmly within it's control. Maybe that's why it's extinct. Having allies besides you with nukes opens up many more variables in Game Theory for your opponent.

China proliferated to Pakistan to check India. That was high school stuff. Now it has proliferated to North Korea with a thermo nuke and ICBM to check the US and at a minimum have the ability to wreak havoc in US allies South Korea, Japan, certainly Guam and the big mother lode of them all, the west coast of the continental US itself. This is graduate level stuff certainly if not a PhD dissertation!!

For India the implication is to be prepared for Pakistan to receive some TN gifts to target India.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 10 Sep 2017 01:22

I am most depressed about the Subs Bearing Gifts. Still hopeful that the US will not wimp out - and convey a deterrent lesson.

Today the best deterrent is to show that a thermonuclear armed rat is still only a rat - and can be taken out with conventional forces.
Reason USSR did not nuke-arm "allies" is that they did not want those getting Moscow addresses. Arming Ukraine and Kazakhstan was adventurous and suicidal enough for the TFTA Russians. Maybe Paki-Xinjiang and NoKo with whoever, will make Eleven regret the new clear gift program.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 10 Sep 2017 02:16

Unfortunately the descent into war - or surrender - has to be documented here, with the India relevance being that radioactive clouds and global recession will affect India. Would be much better to archive using the "Morbid Rubbernecking" thread...
US UN resolution calls for stopNsearch of NoKo-bound/origin ships "using any necessary means"
Also calls for end to giving North Koreans jobs!!! Both are IMO intended to get PeeAllSee and Russia to veto. because:

“the Chinese are willing to consider some measures”, adding that the Russians are unlikely to veto a resolution on their own.

“Up to now, the Chinese and the Russians have tried to keep on giving the US just enough to keep Trump playing the UN game,” said Richard Gowan, an expert on the UN at the European Council for Foreign Relations. “The question is what happens with an extraordinarily hardline resolution and US pressure to do something quickly.”

Munchkin says ready for trade embargo (with PeeAllSee)

said documentation had been prepared to make that threat real if UN diplomacy failed.
“I have an executive order prepared that’s ready to go to the president that would authorise me to stop doing trade, put sanctions on anybody that does trade with North Korea, and the president will consider that at the appropriate time once he gives the UN time to act,” Mnuchin told reporters.

An administration official, speaking to the New Yorker, compared Kim to Saddam Hussein. “Saddam Hussein was not suicidal, but he committed suicide,” the official said.
Surrounded by yes-men and cut off from accurate intelligence, the Iraqi leader thought he could call Washington’s bluff in 2003.

Army lieutenant-general HR McMaster, has argued that North Korea, unlike Russia and China, may not be deterrable and therefore a preventative strike must remain on the table.

There could never be certainty that a preventative strike, however punishing, would hit all the regime’s missiles and nuclear warheads, while its conventional artillery alone could wreak devastating damage on Seoul.

There they go again. Sep. 25. The whole flaw in the "too strong to deter or strike, so must use diplomacy to contain" cop-out is that it has been clearly debunked by experience. NoKo is developing missiles and conducting nuke tests with absolutely nothing done that is "OMG! He wouldn't DARE because".

there is no "because" until the Because is clearly demonstrated. Today the only demonstration cited is that dictators who fall out of favor with the west and don't have nukes, get killed. So all dictators are wise to develop (chinese) nukes.

ldev · Post by **ldev** » 10 Sep 2017 09:00

Trump team prepping aggressive actions for North Korea

In addition, the administration is not ruling out moving tactical nuclear weapons to South Korea should Seoul request them, a White House official said, though many consider such a move a nonstarter. It would break with nearly three decades of U.S. policy of denuclearizing the Korean Peninsula.

Some successful policy it has been.

The president's advisers have made the case, however, that military strikes on North Korea could have serious repercussions, senior defense officials said.

China has also told administration officials that if the U.S. strikes North Korea first, Beijing would back Pyongyang, a senior military official said.

No sh*t!! So China is making no bones about protecting it's proxy!! Wonder if it's other munna Pakistan will also receive such protection?

U.S. officials have also made the case to China that if Beijing doesn't take stronger steps against North Korea, such as cutting off oil exports, South Korea and Japan are likely to pursue their own nuclear weapons programs and the U.S. won't stop them, the official said.

"It's more a message for China than North Korea," the official said.

The way this is headed both Japan and South Korean could soon go nuclear. Japan in any event has both the high grade plutonium and technology to make hundreds of nukes overnight.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 10 Sep 2017 09:22

ldev, former President K.R. Narayanan in his earlier role as Director of China desk in MEA, wrote after the 1964 Chinese nuke test that the eventual objective of the Chinese is to drive the US out of Asia. There is an article in a newspaper today that Rohit Vats tweeted to me.

Looks like it's well underway.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 10 Sep 2017 09:24

See Western Europe had two bogus nuke powers France and UK.
So SoKo and Japan will be added.
Maybe time to disarm the two European powers especially as Brexit could lead to Scotxit.

ldev · Post by **ldev** » 10 Sep 2017 09:52

ramana wrote:ldev, former President K.R. Narayanan in his earlier role as Director of China desk in MEA, wrote after the 1964 Chinese nuke test that the eventual objective of the Chinese is to drive the US out of Asia. There is an article in a newspaper today that Rohit Vats tweeted to me.

Looks like it's well underway.

That is correct. The article is given below:

For China, ’64 n-test was meant as a ‘head-on blow’ to India

In Mr. Narayanan’s view, diplomacy could only embroider on the fact of power but not act as a substitute for it. “Therefore, whatever policy we may choose to follow, it seems that without a nuclear bomb of our own, India cannot answer the challenge posed by China.”

He argued that India acquiring the bomb might make Chinese leaders sit up and reconcile with Delhi just like the U.S. and other nuclear powers were coming to grips with the reality of China. According to the memo, China’s ultimate aim was to drive the U.S. out of Asia and “establish herself” as a nuclear power equal to the U.S. and the USSR. A second nuclear test conducted by the Chinese in May 1965 drew great praise from over 100 Pakistani officials gathered for a reception hosted by the Chinese embassy in Karachi.

KR Narayanan was certainly far-sighted, predicting in 1964 what Chinese objectives were. And yes, more than 50 years later the process is underway.

Kashi · Post by **Kashi** » 10 Sep 2017 10:44

x-post

The time for NoKo to fall was in 1990-91, when the rest of communist regimes started dropping like flies one by one. There would have been a unified Korea, Kims (Grampa, Pa and Baby bears) in exile in China, no nukes on the peninsula or if unification were not possible, for consensus, there would be a DPRK that would closer to it's name in spirit and practice.

For some reason no one was interested. Least of all SoKo.

The fall of communist regimes, the dissolution of USSR and the 1994 famine and arduous march that followed was what accelerated NoKo attempts at obtaining nukes- not to take over SoKo, but for the survival of the Kim dynasty regime.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 10 Sep 2017 12:17

I didn't have the insight that KRN had but as the NoKo crisis heated up I mentioned to Ravi Rikhye that it looks like China wants the US to vacate Guam as a trade-off. RR wrote a very good article expanding on that in Swarajya.

ldev · Post by **ldev** » 10 Sep 2017 18:40

ramana wrote:I didn't have the insight that KRN had but as the NoKo crisis heated up I mentioned to Ravi Rikhye that it looks like China wants the US to vacate Guam as a trade-off. RR wrote a very good article expanding on that in Swarajya.

Very good article.

Here's a great quote from it. This quote by the way validates what was said in the NBC news article posted above by me about China warning the US not to preemptively strike North Korea because in that case it will back Pyongyang:

Beijing has said if DPRK strikes the US first, China will remain neutral, but if US attacks first, it will support DPRK. This is the usual ambiguous Chinese statement intended to allow the listener to believe what it wants. Obviously DPRK will not attack Guam and seal its own fate; the real issue is a pre-emptive US strike against DPRK. Even if DPRK moves first, China cannot stand by while the US levels North Korea, because it is a crucial buffer between China and the US in the northeast. By having its proxy put Guam under threat, China may have embarked on its first steps to control the waters of the Second Island Chain.

If and it's a big if the US decides to downgrade Guam as a base as a quid pro quo, it is 100% sure that both Japan and South Korea will go nuclear.

Opportunities rise during a crisis. The P5 was born out of the crisis of WW2. The US-Chinese tussle for power in the Western Pacific is another looming crisis. Japan and South Korea going nuclear will be one outcome of this crisis. The other outcome which India can shape as an opportunity will be to explicitly confirm it's TN status during this crisis either via a test and/or via a quid pro quo with the US/others for simulation technology. This crisis if it comes to fruition will lead to a revamping of the P5 and India has to be ready for it.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 10 Sep 2017 22:09

ldev, China-US interaction began in the mid 19th century: Mary Knoll missionaries, Open Door Policy, Yale Divinity school etc. China had its own secondary colonization. There was Civil war in the 19th Century from a rebellion.
So there is long memory.

India should sit tight and not help either side.
End of colonization which is Western Dominance of Asia is in balance.
Proofing TN is nice but not in this crisis.
What India has does manage China.
Who is the TN for?
If there is break out then it makes sense but no need to break out before anyone else.

Crisis should be used to take apart Pakistan.
Just as China wants to end Western dominance in their East, so too India needs to finish off the Anglo-Saxon project on India's West.
Lets see.

ldev · Post by **ldev** » 10 Sep 2017 23:19

ramana wrote: Who is the TN for?
If there is break out then it makes sense but no need to break out before anyone else.

The bold part is exactly what I meant.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 11 Sep 2017 06:42

North Korea vows nuclear attack. Or do they?

But NK’s Foreign Ministry has hit back, saying the US is “going frantic” trying to impose measures on Pyongyang and claimed is missile tests are a “legitimate self-defensive measure”.
In a statement released through its official propaganda arm, it said: "In case the US eventually does rig up the illegal and unlawful 'resolution' on harsher sanctions, the DPRK shall make absolutely sure that the US pays due price.
"The world will witness how the DPRK tames the US gangsters by taking a series of actions tougher than they have ever envisaged.”

That just means that they will send a hundred robocalls threatening to sic the IRS on Donald Trump.

It added: ”The DPRK has developed and perfected the super-powerful thermo-nuclear weapon as a means to deter the ever-increasing hostile moves and nuclear threat of the US and defuse the danger of nuclear war looming over the Korean peninsula and the region."

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 11 Sep 2017 07:01

ldev wrote: The other outcome which India can shape as an opportunity will be to explicitly confirm it's TN status during this crisis

Sorry to be such a dolt - but what would the exact goal of such confirmation be?

Would it be to reassure ourselves? Or threaten someone else? Or apply for some club membership based on seismological certificate? There maybe other reasons but I have not figured them out - but none of the options seem to bring in anything positive other than self-reassurance.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 11 Sep 2017 07:35

Well.. the evolving Whirled Odor seems to be one of Friendship and Camaraderie enforced by a thermonuke up the musharraf of every nation. Next UN meeting, probably all the twerps will stand up and bow to welcome the NoKo Ambassador.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 11 Sep 2017 07:56

"Security Council" is a rhetorical name and the permanent members are supposed to wield the power and influence to ensure "security". To that extent India is a misfit. The world remains secure only so long as the security council don't make war. NoKo should find a place in the expanded security council.

Interestingly if Pakistan and NoKo are added to the security council it will not matter whether India, Japan and Germany are added or not. But anything that the US does will be opposed and condemned. Essentially the security council will become even more useless than it already is.

There are IMO a lot of lessons in the power that NoKo displays - lessons that go beyond the blather which India is subjected to and which we Indians have swallowed, having complete faith in the west. We have been taught that factors like removing poverty, availability of electricity to all, food for all and freedom need to come first before hard military power. This is complete nonsense. Pakistan and NoKo are shining examples of that and guess what - some Indians are now jealous of SoKo and Pakistan for those reasons. Add that to those who are jealous of the west for its lack of poverty, healthcare, food and electricity for all and we have the self image of a nation that hangs in there as one with neither development nor hard power. We are not like the west which we admire. We are not like Pakistan or NoKo which we hate, but secretly admire the contempt they show for the west via nukes.

But don't people realize that we admire the west and we have sold ourselves to their paradigm of poverty alleviation and literacy while toeing their lines on nuclear weapons. Either we muddle through in that direction or simply go the NoKo/Pakistan way.

Let me stick my neck out here and say that we cannot go the NoKo/pakistan way without India breaking up or slithering into a mass of civil disturbances. We are sold on the "investment/development" line and there is no going back. There is not going to be any testing or "mine nuke is as big as yours" from India

ldev · Post by **ldev** » 11 Sep 2017 08:59

shiv wrote:
ldev wrote: The other outcome which India can shape as an opportunity will be to explicitly confirm it's TN status during this crisis
Sorry to be such a dolt - but what would the exact goal of such confirmation be?

Would it be to reassure ourselves? Or threaten someone else? Or apply for some club membership based on seismological certificate? There maybe other reasons but I have not figured them out - but none of the options seem to bring in anything positive other than self-reassurance.

Sometimes you have an opponent that has to see the possibility of MAD (Mutal Assured Destruction) even of a billion people on each side, before sense dawns. And to destroy a billion people you need mega tonnage. That can only come via TNs. So it is not to provide reassurance to self, but to send a message to your opponent.

Approximately 36 million died in China during the Great Famine, part of the Great Leap Forward in 1959-61. Another 46 million babies were not born. That's an aggregate negative population impact of 76 million. And the very next year the Chinese fought India in 1962 i.e. the country shrugged off this huge death toll and was ready to fight. I don't think India's aggregate nuke tonnage will cause that many deaths in China today. So if they were not deterred by 36 million deaths in ~1960 why will they be deterred by the prospect of another 36 million dying now if India nukes them with what it currently has?

I'll go back to that quote from KR Narayanan in that memo he wrote in 1964 after the first Chinese nuclear test:

In Mr. Narayanan’s view, diplomacy could only embroider on the fact of power but not act as a substitute for it. “Therefore, whatever policy we may choose to follow, it seems that without a nuclear bomb of our own, India cannot answer the challenge posed by China.”

In the world of 1964 KRN was really saying that India has to have equivalent power to China i.e. a nuke for a nuke. A TN was not on the horizon then, even for China, although China surprised everyone by exploding a 3.3 MT TN less than 3 years later in 1967. So in the world of TNs, KRN would have said a TN for a TN. Only then will diplomacy be effective.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 11 Sep 2017 09:40

ldev wrote:
Sometimes you have an opponent that has to see the possibility of MAD (Mutal Assured Destruction) even of a billion people on each side, before sense dawns. And to destroy a billion people you need mega tonnage.

Please pardon my obstinacy. Nothing personal.

I have not figured out why or how an entity that is willing to lose say 100 million people will fear losing 1 billion. These are big numbers being thrown about. What is the logic behind that. I understand that if you place yourself as Chinese leader you may find that "sense dawns" at that stage. But another person who does not give a rats ass about 100 million cannot be assured to be worried about 1 billion. There is an unexplained assumption there.

About killing a billion people with megatonnage - I think think you have access to all the literature that I have and you can yourself see the dynamics of killing a billion and whether those billion deaths are going to be only "enemy deaths" or others, including Indian because of factors beyond our control.

In fact "use it or lose it" is very good logic when faced with overwhelming megatonnage on the other side. If every single Indian can be eliminated in an attack what logic would stop us from nuking the other guy early and fully- no matter how small our arsenal is. In fact the other guy - beyond a point should not scare us ("deter us") any more. He is definitely going to get hit and his megatonnage stops being a deterrent.

Reverse this logic and ask why the other guy should consider our megatonnage a deterrent?

All this is OT for this thread.

But if you put it in a US-vsNoKo context it would still make sense.

I think we need to conduct these discussions in teh context of whether we are talking deterrence or whether we are talking of fighting (and winning) nuclear war. For deterrence megatonnage is IMO no better than smaller arsenals.

Warfighting with nukes is not deterrence. It is "breakdown of deterrence" and should be discussed in a separate thread.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 11 Sep 2017 14:33

Shfted to other Korea td.

chola · Post by **chola** » 11 Sep 2017 15:32

I think Cheen would accept Japan and SoKo going nuclear if it means getting the US out of Asia.

The PRC has had potentially several thousand nukes leveled on it by the US since the 1950s and another couple of thousands from the USSR/Russia since the 1960s. Then another 100 or so potential nukes from us after 1998. So if there is nation who is used to living under nuclear threat, it is Cheen.

And they've always been non-chalant about nukes since Mao which explains their free-wheeling proliferation activities. I doubt they were ever naive enough to think their proliferation with NoKo would not eventually make SoKo and Japan get the bum. They just didn't care as long it puts pressure on the US to leave.

Japan and SoKo, even going nook, will still be tied together with Cheen through deep economic and cultural exchanges and the same pressure points that those ties and dependencies create.

A wrench in this plan is if they go nuke and the US still stays. LoL.

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 11 Sep 2017 15:37

chola wrote:I think Cheen would accept Japan and SoKo going nuclear if it means getting the US out of Asia.

Chinese have massive inferiority complex, fear and hatred towards the Japanese for all the times Japs kicked cheeni butts. They'd never accept a nuclear Japan. Although, a militarized Japan is in India's advantage in that we can add one more ally on our list, unless they maintain some autonomy in military matters viz the US.

chola · Post by **chola** » 11 Sep 2017 16:08

Karthik S wrote:
chola wrote:I think Cheen would accept Japan and SoKo going nuclear if it means getting the US out of Asia.
Chinese have massive inferiority complex, fear and hatred towards the Japanese for all the times Japs kicked cheeni butts. They'd never accept a nuclear Japan. Although, a militarized Japan is in India's advantage.

And yet they trade massively with Japan and send prodigious amounts of tourists and students there. I think the fear and hatred is overblown and is used by the CCP as a lever against Japan. And that leverage only exists because economic integration is so high.

Hate and fear is what we have with Pakistan with shitty econimic ties to match. Not Cheen and Japan. (Cheen's overall economic embrace of its mortal enemies -- Japan, SoKo, Taiwan, Vietnam and the US as well -- should be studied IMHO.)

As far as inferiority complex is concerned, I was told this by an old Goldman Sachs' china hand when I started working the Asian beat on Wall Street:
China's entire rise can be directly attributed to its massive inferiority complex to not only Japan but the five Tigers (Hong Kong, Macau, Singapore Taiwan and South Korea) in the 1970's and '80's.

Being piss poor with successful neighbors all around it made them feel massively inferior but at the same time also allowed them to copy with conviction. This was how a commie nation got itself into the global supply chain without resistance from the cadres.

Cheen will accept Japan's nukes because as a society they still see the Japanese as superior even today and copy them shamelessly in business, aesthetics and culture.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 11 Sep 2017 16:41

Countdown to war or surrender: US calls for UNSC resolution and action in 6 days.
(Sep. 17 deadline).

Previous U.N. sanctions resolutions have been negotiated between the United States and China — North Korea's main trading partner and ally — and have taken weeks, and in some cases months, to finalize.
But the Trump administration adopted a totally new approach with this resolution, presenting its draft to China and all other Security Council members last Tuesday and demanding a vote in six days. Diplomats said China's U.N. ambassador, Liu Jieyi, who was on a Security Council trip to Ethiopia, flew back to New York on Thursday to take part in negotiations.
North Korea's Foreign Ministry issued a statement early Monday saying it was watching the United States' moves closely and warned that it was "ready and willing" to respond with measures of its own. It said the U.S. would pay a heavy price if the sanctions proposed by Washington are adopted.
Ethiopia's U.N. mission, the current Security Council president, said late Sunday that members would vote on a North Korea resolution following a meeting Monday afternoon on implementing existing sanctions against the North Korean government.

US/ Nikki Halley reminds me of PG Wodehouse' Wooster in "The Purity of The Turf". Comrade Steggles has just made a visit to the critical race participant.

OK, so Ethiopia will sabotage US resolution in return for ~~$10B~~ $5M in Cheen aid?

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 11 Sep 2017 16:59

If the Japanese or SoKos test, India can proof its own maal
Currently though, India's TNs can be expected to perform with good reliability, given the "corrective" measures taken, peer reviews etc
Although, there is nothing that can equate a full yield field tested bum

Its a glass half full or a glass half empty for India, depending on which way you look at it

What there is no doubt about is that, TNs and Megatonnage numbers are needed to deter. 5x20KT can never equal a 1 MT beast, no matter what anyone says!

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 11 Sep 2017 17:29

UN could agree on Pyongyang as a Global Nuke Test Target (GNTT) and then India can test both nuke and missiles.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 11 Sep 2017 18:08

Where is the question of China accepting or not accepting a nuclear Japan/SoKo? It's not like Chinese will attack either of these countries, at most they will saber rattle.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 11 Sep 2017 18:36

The US has a problem with NoKo. If nations other than the US nuke NoKo - the US's ass is saved and China too benefits because they don't have to oppose a US hitting NoKo.

The US will put pressure on China hoping that Kim starts hating China more - so the US won't have to do anything. Question is what can the US do to pressurize China? Not a lot as far as I can see. So maybe the US will huff and puff and not manage to do anything much.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 11 Sep 2017 19:15

The only way the US can directly pressure china is trade
The other way is if the US establishment starts to treat China as an enemy, the. The entire western bloc can geopolitically nix china's trade and strategic advances the world over. Any nation that tries to be in the "Chinese Bloc", is going to get a big danda in their musharraf

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 11 Sep 2017 20:41

Shiv, creating a 'provocation' should be child's play. Who is going to contradict the US version of who started the festivities - The Chinese? :LOL The NoKos? They won't be around. The Russians, yes, but who cares if anyone believes them? As Hillary Clinton's mega thriller fiction makes clear, the Russians are "responsible" for everything anyway. So I think the timetable is entirely under DupleeCity's control - if they have the will.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 11 Sep 2017 21:36

UlanBatori wrote:Shiv, creating a 'provocation' should be child's play. Who is going to contradict the US version of who started the festivities - The Chinese? :LOL The NoKos? They won't be around. The Russians, yes, but who cares if anyone believes them? As Hillary Clinton's mega thriller fiction makes clear, the Russians are "responsible" for everything anyway. So I think the timetable is entirely under DupleeCity's control - if they have the will.

I guess you're right. I never looked at it that way. But the US - before it attacks anyone tends to get more and more and more threatening and builds up formidable - essentially undefeatable forces before attacking. That has not happened yet. After Vietnam the US has never got into a war where the adversary is left in any way capable of leading a normal existence as a nation - "victory" or "defeat" of the US is more semantics. The forces will be overwhelming and NoKo will be battered to pulp

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 11 Sep 2017 21:39

Gagan, shiv and, ldev,

Please continue nuke talk in the deterrence thread thanks.

Thanks,
ramana