Indian Military Helicopters

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 13 Sep 2017 20:31

deejay wrote:Then good. Acchaa hai. Even helicopter pilots can try aerial combat

Good to take on enemy helicopter is my guess or UAVs and UCAVs. Though A2G missiles should be primary IMO.

Agree on limited use, against Heli or UAV as main target. 4 missiles engage both outboard pylons. So only mid-board pylons are free for rockets or ATGM.

Looks like its this one:

http://www.mbda-systems.com/product/mistral-atam/

If one takes a good look at Rudra, it feels like JV between India and France.

Huge scope for desi-karan.

I wonder if we can make an ATAM version out of Helina. That would be awesome.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 13 Sep 2017 21:11

Mistrals.

chola · Post by **chola** » 14 Sep 2017 00:14

manjgu wrote:chola...how come we are a western army? just because we have british traditions, thats a way too funny argument ..oh yes and we speak good english in the army as well !! how many LGB;s did we fire in Kargil ! i think Singha is totally right on how attack helos will be employed in indo pak/chini context... missiles will be used ( with prior approval of Def Min babu and doubly signed by RM) but majorly it will be guns , rockets etc..cheap ordanance.

Yes a western army in traditions and in the values engendered in the western tradition. Meaning in the simplist terms -- we prioritize quality over quantity and men over treasure.

Western armies kill from afar to protect men whenever possible.

The Russians have a different philosophy. The Hind is built to that Russian philosophy of ruggedness, numbers and simplicity. The Rudra is not. Still the Hind got clobbered in Afghanistan by MANPADs.

Throwing the Rudra against PLA/PA regulars without a standoff weapon would be in the Russian tradition and philosophy of valuing treasure over men.

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 14 Sep 2017 00:30

The Rudra has missiles in the form of 70mm rockets for use against the enemy and it is not completely useless without a ATGM. For the ATGM the RM should form a team with Army, Airforce and DRDO and expedite HeliNa and get it into production and not rush into Importing. Now that Nag development is complete it shouldn't take too long to complete development of HeliNa that too if all stake holders work together

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 14 Sep 2017 00:32

JayS wrote:
Singha wrote:sleek rudra helicopter in our most fwd airbase on west - naliya in rann of kutch, same base from where we downed the atlantique. a sand filter seems on intake.

The square perforated box - is that a filter for keeping FOD from engine intake..?

One thing I've been wondering about- why is the Army sticking to an all-black scheme for the Rudras? Apart from being visible from a longer distance, painting it all black must make it a little hotter and better visible for an IR seeker. Wouldn't a desert camo make more sense considering where the Rudras are currently being based?

nam · Post by **nam** » 14 Sep 2017 00:59

deejay wrote:Then good. Acchaa hai. Even helicopter pilots can try aerial combat

Good to take on enemy helicopter is my guess or UAVs and UCAVs. Though A2G missiles should be primary IMO.

And manpads? Guide a2a missile using Maws?

nam · Post by **nam** » 14 Sep 2017 01:04

Kartik wrote:
One thing I've been wondering about- why is the Army sticking to an all-black scheme for the Rudras? Apart from being visible from a longer distance, painting it all black must make it a little hotter and better visible for an IIR seeker. Wouldn't a desert camo make more sense considering where the Rudras are currently being based?

Wouldn't it be the other way around? Black absorb heat and makes it difficult for seeker to differentiate the target from the surrounding environment? Most of attack chopper are dark in Colorado.

Similar to the infamous peak heat afternoon requirement for nag.

chola · Post by **chola** » 14 Sep 2017 02:51

Kakarat wrote:The Rudra has missiles in the form of 70mm rockets for use against the enemy and it is not completely useless without a ATGM. For the ATGM the RM should form a team with Army, Airforce and DRDO and expedite HeliNa and get it into production and not rush into Importing. Now that Nag development is complete it shouldn't take too long to complete development of HeliNa that too if all stake holders work together

Rockets are short-ranged weapons. In fact, they are stand-ins for guns on helos that don't have a cannon built in. Getting close enough for an effective salvo of rockets puts the Rudra in the same danger as using the gun. Nope, not good having a lightly armored gunship like the Rudra go in close against regulars. Insurgents? Maybe.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 14 Sep 2017 03:28

What are you talking about boss? Rockets and ATGMs have similar range. The rockets may have higher. They are cheaper, less accurate, less effective against tanks, but more effective for area suppression. Basically, they have different roles. One doesn't replace the other.

The ATGMs for Dhruv/LCH are coming.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 14 Sep 2017 06:34

India’s Rudras Back In Sight, Still Awaiting Missiles
https://www.livefistdefence.com/2017/09 ... siles.html

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 14 Sep 2017 08:24

In fact given that they're also being based in the NE, it might be interesting to see if they adopt a mountain specific camo there.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 14 Sep 2017 08:42

Very often I find that views expressed on how "war should be fought" in terms of tactics and weapons and risks to soldiers and pilots are echoed in a lament that I posted many months ago in the US mil thread

How Desert Storm Destroyed the US Military

The day Desert Storm ended, the death of the US military commenced.

The Pentagon, basking in glory and bowing to pressure from the public and crackpot feminists like Patricia Schroeder, started drinking the Kool Aid and they’ve never stopped. The war was a video game, a clean, quick rout. Modern war was now sanitized, where the bad guys would die at stand-off ranges of a mile or two and explode in little black and white pixels on Pentagon TV screens.

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 14 Sep 2017 09:21

That is why they are not in a position to fight in Afpak region of ME now. Too much mess and body bags.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 14 Sep 2017 09:35

when i talk of skill, here are a pair of hinds going in at rooftop level over central syria to press home the attack. watch with sound.
after releasing rockets on a target probably 2km out, they dive down to below rooftop level before turning away, dropping flares ... lots of curses and AoA by the jihadis blazing away

apache helis have done it too against taliban fire. sometimes a heavier asset like a AC130 was there to help but mostly not. people fight with what they have.

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 14 Sep 2017 09:46

i think rockets on choppers have ranges in excess of 8 km ...anything between 8 to 12 km ..

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 14 Sep 2017 10:22

Hydra 70 mm rockets on Apache have an approximate range of 10 km. Rudra has 70 mm rockets too.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 14 Sep 2017 11:57

AND they are becoming accurate with laser guided . cheaper than laser guided, IR or mmw ATGMs. for most targets they will work, only vs MBT frontal arc armour these will not work.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_ ... pon_System

even a shower of unguided rockets can ruin anyone's day and the Mi17 carries a ungodly number

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 14 Sep 2017 12:06

8km for the rockets on Rudra. I think I read yesterday somewhere.

Atmavik · Post by **Atmavik** » 16 Sep 2017 18:02

HAL Attack Helicopter Rudra Operational In Indian Army

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nVS3Hi957Pc

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 16 Sep 2017 19:59

Good Luck and Good Hunting.

Will look to seeing videos of the rats being exterminated by this hunter, in the not-to-distant future

nam · Post by **nam** » 16 Sep 2017 20:08

IA going in for attack helicopters in numbers, should also be a clear indication that this "light tank" business is all hot air by MSM.

With close to 200 choppers planned, why would IA want 200-300 light tanks? when attack helicopters will be better than tank anyday in killing another tank.

chola · Post by **chola** » 16 Sep 2017 20:38

Sorry guys, aerial rockets are short-ranged weapons onlee.

Sending a Rudra without a Hellfire equivalent against regular army is doing it Russian style (expense over men) without the Russian ruggedness.

Yes, can work with hairy cavemen but not clean shaven soldiers of a professional army with their plethora pf MANPADS and other anti-air devices.

https://books.google.com/books?id=pb5Y2 ... ge&f=false

From "Weapons of the Modern Marines", page 121.

Like all airborne unguided rockets, they are for short-range use only when the enemy has no effective antiaircraft defenses.

srin · Post by **srin** » 16 Sep 2017 20:55

Rockets have been tested on Rudra for 6-8 km. Not short-range at all.

Found this on YT. I think this is from Aero India seminar.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 16 Sep 2017 21:11

Rockets do pack a lot of punch - the Hunters of Longewala used SNEB/Matra 68 mm rockets in 18 round pods to bust Pakistani tanks. The Rudra/LCH uses 19 rocket pack from Forges de Zeebrugge that uses US 2.75"/70 mm rockets.

They are adequate for taking on tanks - only the front turret and glacis of tanks have Depleted Uranium / Ceramic Composite / ERA protection. Helicopters attack from top and rockets are more than adequate to penetrate the top.

Plus one doesnt encounter tanks all the time. Pakistani Army - that will be boosted by irregular jehadis - will mostly occupy cemented stone sangars in mountains, plains and desert with Chinese RPG/DShK/H&K UMG and rockets are the best way to take them out.

FZ has laser guided rockets that the BEL manufactured Elbit CoMPASS suite can easily guide.

BTW the Livefist article is precisely how lifafa journalists work - he is trying to make a sales pitch based on Defence Minister's interest in the helicopter.

Other option is US APKWS

The Rudra & LCH need laser guided rockets. ATGMs like Hellfire/PARS/Spike are too expensive for general use.

http://www.janes.com/article/49257/aero ... w-paintjob

The CoMPASS is a day-and-night surveillance system that includes a colour TV daylight camera, third generation 3-5 µm forward-looking infrared (FLIR) sensor; laser target designator and rangefinder; and automatic tracking capabilities. It is being license built in India by Bharat Electronics Limited.

http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/eco ... 909641.ece

Bharat Electronics Limited (BEL), Defence Public Sector, has received an order at Aero India 2015 from Elbit Systems Electro-Optical Elop Ltd (Elop), of Israel, for the production of Elop’s Compact Multi-Purpose Advanced Stabilized Systems(CoMPASSTM). This is in addition to an earlier order for the supply of CoMPASS, received by BEL from Elop in 2014. Previously, BEL had entered into a technical collaboration agreement with Elop for the joint production and D-Level maintenance of CoMPASS for the Advanced Light Helicopter (ALH) Programme. BEL had absorbed transfer of technology (ToT) for production of CoMPASS in India. CoMPASS is used in the ALH being manufactured by HAL.

The CoMPASS is a day-and-night surveillance system that includes a colour TV daylight camera, 3rd Generation infrared sensor and automatic tracking capabilities, as well as command and control capabilities.

nash · Post by **nash** » 18 Sep 2017 16:30

Livefist‏Verified account @livefist 2h2 hours ago
Replying to @livefist

India's LCH to conduct live firings of Mistral end 2017 at Chandipur. LCH to sport 4 Mistrals on each wing, as opposed to 2 on Rudra.

It means total 16 ATAM can possible, it will give night mare to any advancing cavalry at high altitude

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 18 Sep 2017 16:43

^^ Each wing == outboard pylon of each wing..??

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 18 Sep 2017 16:55

Does the Cobra which Pakis operate comes with AAM or this could give our helicopters the ability to take them down along with UAV's pretty easily.

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 18 Sep 2017 16:59

"With close to 200 choppers planned, why would IA want 200-300 light tanks? when attack helicopters will be better than tank anyday in killing another tank."

Because Air Power cannot occupy ground won. Infantry will. And Infantry will need fire support/Armour on the ready.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 18 Sep 2017 17:24

ANd Attack Helicopters without supporting ground forces is like sending Tanks without any infantry support.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 18 Sep 2017 17:53

nash wrote:
Livefist‏Verified account @livefist 2h2 hours ago
Replying to @livefist

India's LCH to conduct live firings of Mistral end 2017 at Chandipur. LCH to sport 4 Mistrals on each wing, as opposed to 2 on Rudra.
It means total 16 ATAM can possible, it will give night mare to any advancing cavalry at high altitude

How does 4 Mistrals at each wing add up to 16 ATAM?

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 18 Sep 2017 17:59

http://www.janes.com/article/49257/aero ... w-paintjob

Mango question: Is this some sort of stealth required shaping we are seeing?

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 18 Sep 2017 18:34

Yagnasri wrote:http://www.janes.com/article/49257/aero ... w-paintjob

Mango question: Is this some sort of stealth required shaping we are seeing?

Yes.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 18 Sep 2017 18:38

Aditya_V wrote:Does the Cobra which Pakis operate comes with AAM or this could give our helicopters the ability to take them down along with UAV's pretty easily.

at present no. they might buy some wz or aw129 helis soon which might have. note these are mostly self defence weapons which must be launched LOBL because helis have no radar to find and designate targets. the odd chance to bag a costly UAV could be there. reapers and eitan types are not cheap but mostly they will fly way higher than helis and be outside the vertical scan zone of a AAM.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 18 Sep 2017 19:02

Pakistani AH-1Z have the more powerful Sidewinders on wingtips.

Apache has wingtip mounted stingers

The Sidewinder is more powerful than Stinger & Mistral with higher Pk and No Escape Zone. AH-1Z with two sidewinders has lesser number of missiles than 8 loadout of LCH and 4 loadout of Apache but will outrange them both.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 18 Sep 2017 19:39

But its the older aim9L than aim9x i think

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 18 Sep 2017 19:46

Singha sir, that may be right (for some more time anyway) but a helicopter can anyway turn very quickly right ?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 18 Sep 2017 19:49

Rhetorical question: Why do air defence aircraft need kick ass radars if a helo with an AAM can simply hover around taking down other aircraft?

I mean if I get into story writing I will speak of a massive Paki tank thrust with 6 AH1s supportintgthe attack and taking down all opposing aircraft because djinn vision will do the trick. No?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 18 Sep 2017 20:04

Manish_P wrote:Singha sir, that may be right (for some more time anyway) but a helicopter can anyway turn very quickly right ?

do what you wish but a heli is really no match for even a armed hawk with a radar and aam combo. the heli will usually not even see the inbound fighter working in look down shoot down mode and has no chance of outrunning any sam or aam given its low kinetic energy. its best bet is to avoid getting into such fights.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 18 Sep 2017 20:18

Singha wrote:
Manish_P wrote:Singha sir, that may be right (for some more time anyway) but a helicopter can anyway turn very quickly right ?
do what you wish but a heli is really no match for even a armed hawk with a radar and aam combo. the heli will usually not even see the inbound fighter working in look down shoot down mode and has no chance of outrunning any sam or aam given its low kinetic energy. its best bet is to avoid getting into such fights.

Yeap. Energy is the key here.

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 18 Sep 2017 20:22

Shiv ji and Singha sir, i understand your point. The AAMs of the helo are at best for other Helis and UAVs. Hence i was pondering over whether the AIM9x will really give much advantage over the older AIM9 versions