Artillery: News & Discussion

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ramana
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by ramana »

M777 is 39 calibers.
So PD M572 Fuze malfunction ruled out as so far this manifested in 45 caliber barrels only.
This leaves barrel wear due to erosion combined with shell cg offset.
Also this shell was the fifth in a series. So what was the chamber condition? Any debris/residue/sand?

We do not know about the earlier 40 Bofors failures.
Therefore this is not new : 155mm shell and 39 calibers.

I wonder if the CAG or Parliament reports had looked into the reports of these instances.

it would be good to back and categorize the previous incidents with respect to type of shell, fuze, charge and number of shells already fired from that gun barrel.

Shouldn't be too hard if they could give the exact number of incidents wrt to Bofors as 40.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by srin »

Is it possible that shell wobble inside the barrel is caused by unbalanced casting of the shell ?
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by ramana »

The shell casing is a machined forging on a CNC lathe. So it runs true to its axis. Then it gets filled with explosive which is melted with wax. Looks like a slurry. Shell total weight about 42 kg. The filling is about 8 kg. So shell casting would be difference. There is no spin balance required for shells.

BTW, OFB factories are converting to full CNC run shops. The only hindrance if HMT lack of support to the purchase requirements. This is in the Khanduri Parliament 2017 report.
Anyways the OFB tenders pages shows many German CNC machines being imported.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by brar_w »

Here is a something for Singha.. Heat, lots of dust, helo deployment, and no automation whatsoever.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EltEXNQbR9w
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Singha »

as usual the marines get the tough dusty jobs and the most basic equipment while the army only moves out in vehicles and a huge logisitics chain.
if you ask me I was all for getting CH53K king stallions instead of the Chinooks which are neither here or there. these CH53k could have taken over some of the role vacated by the retired Mi26 we had.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by brar_w »

The key performance permaneters in terms of airframe life, and availability that the Marines have put up has driven the cost considerably. At the moment it is obviously expensive because the first batch of two just entered production (and LRIP-1 always carries future production infra costs) but even at full rate production this will be one of the most expensive helicopters in the medium, or heavy lift categories. It works for the Marines because literally everything they bring ashore relies on it. From their Howitzers, to troops, to vehicles and even their latest GaN radars. These also serve their maneuver forces while redeploying. But the CH-47 is a much better helicopter if you require medium capacity and don't want to pay a lot more for the ability to carry heavier loads.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Bala Vignesh »

I was watching a video on the application of 155mm arty in Afghan theater by ISAF and noticed a slight change in one of the procedures between US Army and Canadian army on the firing sequence of the M777. The person who secures the breech(operating the LBM)
usually cleans the residue in US Army seen here; while the same is missing in the Canadian procedures seen here. Would be interesting to see if this has any effect on the life and reliability of the barrel??
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Pratyush »

Bala Vignesh wrote:I was watching a video on the application of 155mm arty in Afghan theater by ISAF and noticed a slight change in one of the procedures between US Army and Canadian army on the firing sequence of the M777. The person who secures the breech(operating the LBM)
usually cleans the residue in US Army seen here; while the same is missing in the Canadian procedures seen here. Would be interesting to see if this has any effect on the life and reliability of the barrel??

Bagged charges leave residue but modular charges don't.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by chetak »

Image
ramana
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by ramana »

Saab has a new mortar round

https://twitter.com/ramana_brf/status/9 ... 3979120640

Essentially it has a predetermined fragmentation pattern.
Maybe like a shot shell pattern using fragments packed in the front portion and a bursting charge behind and functioned by the proximity fuze.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Bala Vignesh »

Pratyush wrote: Bagged charges leave residue but modular charges don't.
Pratyushji,
In the first couple of shots fired by US forces in the video they are also using modular charges and not bags. So i assume it is something apart from it.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by ramana »

Singha, Please this is the arty thread...

brar_w posted the video for you to see the environment that artillery operates on and you go off admiring helicopters.
And people are forced to reply!!!
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by ramana »

Bala Vignesh wrote:I was watching a video on the application of 155mm arty in Afghan theater by ISAF and noticed a slight change in one of the procedures between US Army and Canadian army on the firing sequence of the M777. The person who secures the breech(operating the LBM)
usually cleans the residue in US Army seen here; while the same is missing in the Canadian procedures seen here. Would be interesting to see if this has any effect on the life and reliability of the barrel??

Bala, Thanks for the video of operation use of the M 777 an the M119.
The former has the modular charges.
First the operator uses a rigid dust mop head to wipe the breech. After that the rounds are loaded and pushed with the flexible dust mop head and then modular charges are loaded. and this repeats. One thing is look at the shake of the gun. The shell has to leave the muzzle break before the recoil shake starts for accuracy. Hence those high number of charges which impart most muzzle velocity.

I did not see when the hard mop is used again after how many rounds.


The M119 has those fixed cartridges and is like old fashioned cannon.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Philip »

Sensational! Kudos to the team.
http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/i ... 693728.ece
Indigenous artillery gun sets new record in range
Dinakar Peri SEPTEMBER 15, 2017 21:14 IST

The Advanced Towed Artillery Gun System at the 68th Republic Day Parade. | Photo Credit: R.V. Moorthy
NEW DELHI: An indigenous artillery gun, Advanced Towed Artillery Gun System (ATAGS), being jointly developed by the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) and the private sector has set a new world record in range by hitting targets at a distance of 48 km.

“During trial firings at Pokhran ranges last week, ATAGS registered the longest ever distance of 48.074 kms, surpassing the maximum ranges of 35-40 kms fired by any artillery gun system in this category,” an industry source told The Hindu.

ATAGS is a 155mm, 52 calibre towed artillery gun being developed in mission mode by DRDO as a part of the Army’s artillery modernisation programme. The record was achieved with special ammunition, “high explosive – base bleed” (HE – BB) by the ATAGS variant developed by Kalyani Group.

The development is being done through a consortium based model, similar to that adopted for the Pinaka multi-barrel rocket launch system. It was designed by DRDO’s Armament Research and Development Establishment (ARDE) in Pune. In addition, Bharat Forge Limited of Kalyani Group, Tata Power Strategic Engineering Division and Mahindra Defence Naval System from the private sector are involved in a big way along with the Ordnance Factory Board (OFB). For instance, the barrel and breech mechanism, on both variants of ATAGS, was developed at Kalyani Group.

Summer trials are currently underway and the next round of trials are likely to held in Sikkim in December.
“The trials are progressing well. Additional prototypes are being made to speed trials,” one official said.

The gun has several significant features including an all-electric drive, high mobility, quick deployability, auxiliary power mode, advanced communication system, automated command and control system. It has a six round magazine instead of a standard three round magazine. Also, the gun weighs slightly more than normal due to the larger chamber.

The Army has not inducted any new artillery gun since the Bofors in the 1980's. After decades of failed attempts, the service is gearing up to induct the Dhanush artillery gun which is an indigenously upgraded variant of the Bofors gun. In addition, last November India signed a contract for 145 M-777 Ultra-Light Howitzers from the US.

(EOM)
Earlier report:
XCPT
DRDO’S ATAGS Howitzer creates World record in Hitting Target Range
Published September 5, 2017 SOURCE: Ajai Shukla / Business Standard

On Monday, in trial firing at the Pokhran Ranges in Rajasthan, the advanced towed artillery gun system (ATAGS) being indigenously developed for the Indian Army demonstrated its potential to be a world-beating system. The 155-millimetre, 52-calibre gun-howitzer fired three shells out to a world-record distance of 47.2 kilometres from the gun position. This was achieved using special, long-range ammunition called “high explosive – base bleed” (HE – BB). In comparison, 155-millimetre, 52-calibre guns in service worldwide fire this ammunition to maximum ranges of 40-45 kilometres. The achievements coincides with the appointment of Nirmala Sitharaman as defence minister. The ATAGS is being developed by the Defence R&D Organisation (DRDO) on two parallel tracks – one prototype in partnership with Tata Power (Strategic Engineering Division) and another with Bharat Forge. The prototype that broke the record was the Tata Power (SED) gun. Earlier, on Saturday, the same gun had broken another record by firing “high explosive – boat tail” (HE – BT) ammunition to a range of 37.2 kilometres. Range, accuracy and consistency are the key attributes of an artillery gun. A longer range allows more area to be engaged from a “gun position”, without having to redeploy (or shift) the guns. The secret of the ATAGS longer range is its larger chamber – 25 litres, compared to 23 litres in most 155-millimetre guns like the French Nexter and Israeli Elbit guns the military has evaluated. A larger chamber packs in more high explosive propellant, which shoots out the warhead further. The need to cater for this higher “shock of firing” makes the ATAGS a heavier gun. It weighs in at 17-18 tonnes, while comparable guns worldwide weigh 14-15 tonnes. So promising is the ATAGS that both existing prototypes were paraded on January 26 in New Delhi. After the gun successfully completes development and firing trials, the army is likely to procure at least 2,000 ATAGS. At an estimated Rs 15 crore apiece, that will result in Rs 30,000 crore in business for the production eco-system, benefiting a large number of private defence firms.

idrw.org .Read more at India No 1 Defence News Website http://idrw.org/drdos-atags-howitzer-cr ... get-range/ .
PS:Tx,noted.
Last edited by Philip on 16 Sep 2017 15:22, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by darshhan »

Philip, Do not post complete idrw articles
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by shiv »

ramana
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by ramana »

Shiv, Thanks for the YouTube link.

They fired the shell with the lifting lug. No fuze.
If we zoom in we can see the Mach or Shock waves near the nose tip.
Very good imagery.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by ramana »

Karthik S
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Karthik S »

Image

N Sitharaman checking out ATAGS.

PC: Livefist.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Supratik »

sudeepj wrote:
Singha wrote:I check both the chandrapur and bolangir plants on google earth.
Both have extensive bunkers to store explosives and ready shells
Whoever is going to check this issue will need to check the storage dumps where the fired shell was stored through its life, not just the plants which likely only have temporary storage till the shells are shipped out to different storage dumps. It could even be an issue with Indian cordite burning hotter or possibly having some issues with the composition including some corrosive elements that causes barrels to wear faster.

The only thing that can be conclusively said is, shells are causing some issues in many different guns that we know of, so its likely not an issue in the guns. Exactly where the issue is, we can only say after a proper, scientific inquiry.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Pratyush »

regarding the ATAGS we know that it has a bigger chamber then a typical nato standard 52 cal 155. We are also inducting the K 9 which is a nato standard 155. The difference in chamber will bring about a difference in maximum range. How will the army adjust its arty fire support doctrines in case of the field employment of the two weapons.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by shiv »

Enjoy: Effect of artillery fire
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hrubDDcygb4
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by ramana »

Pratyush wrote:regarding the ATAGS we know that it has a bigger chamber then a typical nato standard 52 cal 155. We are also inducting the K 9 which is a nato standard 155. The difference in chamber will bring about a difference in maximum range. How will the army adjust its arty fire support doctrines in case of the field employment of the two weapons.
K9 will be with Armored strike corps.

ATAGS will be with the Artillery regiments.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by tandav »

brar_w wrote:Here is a something for Singha.. Heat, lots of dust, helo deployment, and no automation whatsoever.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EltEXNQbR9w
Though its mobile and easily heli transportable... it appears extremely vulnerable to counter battery fire/ UAV /PGM strikes due to its immobility once sited.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by brar_w »

tandav wrote:
brar_w wrote:Here is a something for Singha.. Heat, lots of dust, helo deployment, and no automation whatsoever.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EltEXNQbR9w
Though its mobile and easily heli transportable... it appears extremely vulnerable to counter battery fire/ UAV /PGM strikes due to its immobility once sited.
How do you define immobility? Is it its ability to emplace and displace within a short span of time so that it can rapidly relocate to avoid counter fire? What would it be relative to? A similar ULH? or something that has a design weight margin 2 or 3 times of it?


Emplacement and Displacement Requirement for the Triple Seven -
TheLW155 (a single weapon) shall be emplaced and ready to fire (weapon is laid, at least one reference point has been established, one round of ammunition is ready to be loaded, and communications with the Fire Direction Center (FDC) are established) by no more than five crewmen including the gunner and four other cannoneers in three (threshold) to two (objective) minutes or less, after the prime mover has stopped in position.
Once emplaced,the LW155 (howitzer, crew, prime mover, and associated equipment) shall be loaded and prepared to immediately depart the current location, by no more than five crewmen in two (threshold) to one (objective) minute
Once in theater it can relocate via a medium transport truck (MTVR or FMTV in US services) and the emplacement and displacement times are based on moving it via that route. The physical weight of the weapon system and the munitions is kept low on account of a 4300 kg system (4200 kg weapon + 90 kg generator) which allows lighter trucks to move it. Fording requirements were kept at par with those of the trucks the two services were going to use to move it, and the speeds were also kept fairly high (88 kph on road, 56 kph on secondary roads, and 24 kph on cross country roads). I guess if you are comparing it with heavier guns like the Bofors that have an APU however those are much heavier (nearly 3 times) and moving them cross country at the same speed would probably pose a harder challenge using a similar sized vehicle.

Now consider where these guns are going to be operating..up in the hills, given the terrain, altitudes the enemy will also have mobility issues with its guns, radars and command and control. China's has also developed an ULH presumably for a similar environment and with mobility in mind. Keep in mind that based on IA needs the M777A2 is very much a niche player, to be used in theaters where mobility and transportability is an important factor. The requirements for heavier, more automated, longer ranged guns are much much higher and will be met almost exclusively by indigenously developed and produced systems.

Image
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by jamwal »

http://m.timesofindia.com/india/faulty- ... 814909.cms

by BAE systems were being carried out at Pokhran.
NEW DELHI: A preliminary investigation has found that faulty ammunition was the reason behind the explosion on the Army's new long-range ultra-light (ULH) howitzer M-777 during a field trial in Pokhran earlier this month, official sources said.
The barrel of the US-manufactured gun had exploded when it was firing Indian ammunition on September 2.
A preliminary inquiry has found that the explosion took place due to faulty ammunition supplied by the Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) and further probe into the matter was on, the sources said.
Asked about the findings of the probe, OFB spokesperson Uddipan Mukherjee said, "Any such failure is attributable to a complex phenomena pertaining to internal ballistics as the shell moves at a very high speed inside the barrel."
He said these kind of failures can have multiple causes and "the quality of the shell is not the only reason
Fast investigation in this case
:P
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by ambati »

how can a barrel explode . i think the barrel should take most of the energy and deform not explode
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by tandav »

The Chinese equivalent of M777 4.5 tons Heli transportable

http://thediplomat.com/2016/07/china-wi ... -howitzer/
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Indranil »

I hope Kalyani does not have to keep waiting for access to Indian ranges to test their ULH for much longer.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by ramana »

jamwal wrote:http://m.timesofindia.com/india/faulty- ... 814909.cms

by BAE systems were being carried out at Pokhran.
NEW DELHI: A preliminary investigation has found that faulty ammunition was the reason behind the explosion on the Army's new long-range ultra-light (ULH) howitzer M-777 during a field trial in Pokhran earlier this month, official sources said.
The barrel of the US-manufactured gun had exploded when it was firing Indian ammunition on September 2.
A preliminary inquiry has found that the explosion took place due to faulty ammunition supplied by the Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) and further probe into the matter was on, the sources said.
Asked about the findings of the probe, OFB spokesperson Uddipan Mukherjee said, "Any such failure is attributable to a complex phenomena pertaining to internal ballistics as the shell moves at a very high speed inside the barrel."
He said these kind of failures can have multiple causes and "the quality of the shell is not the only reason


Fast investigation in this case
:P

What was the fault in the ammunition?
What they mean is in the fault tree they have decided its the ammunition that contributed to the fault.

So what exactly was the fault in the ammo?

OFB Spokesperson has said the shell passed the quality checks.
Without specifically commenting on the findings of the probe, Mukherjee said ammunition used in the M-777 gun had undergone the required quality tests.
Also Mil Handbook-756 the spec for making 155mm shells has minimal quality checks: eg. material tensile strength type tests. There are no final assy tests.

Maybe the sample size is not enough to detect shell faults.
Let me clarify.

Mil-STD 105 is the origin of all statistical lot sampling for ordnance.
So the sample size is determined based on Acceptable Quality Level (AQL).
These are destroyed in test to give AQL confidence,
Obviously, the OFB shells need more quality checks.
One way is to make in small lots.

By now OFB can't say their shells pass standard checks when accidents are happening.

It would be good if the BOI states what exactly was wrong with the faulty shell?

If one sees the video that Shiv linked the shell spins true about its centerline or longitudinal axis. Now if there is any eccentricity of the CG from that axis it will drift or go off axis.

A shell could pass normal checks for low charges or energy and become weird at high charges.
In the M777 accident, the shell was ERFB BB that means trying to get more range. Most likely has charge 9.

One check OFB needs to do is take 30 random shells from that batch and spin them on a table without the fuze to see if there is a pattern of off-axis in the shell manufacturing process.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Philip »

OFB was found guilty earlier of cutting corners on manufacture of T-72 gun barrels,which also burst while firing.An investigation found corner cutting at the OFB as well as ammo flws. This cost us 1500 crores which were replace! with Ru imports.

http://www.firstpost.com/india/india-to ... 66905.html
New Delhi: Seeking to address the issue of bursting barrels of Army tanks due to ammunition, the government is planning to replace them with canons of T-90 tanks in collaboration with Russia.
T-72 tanks, the mainstay of the Indian armoured fleet, are facing problems with their ammunition as they sometimes bursts in the barrel and 200 such cases have been reported causing concern in the Army.
The defence ministry is planning to replace the barrels of the T-72 tanks with the ones fitted in the T-90 tanks. Under the plan, around 800 barrels are to be procured from Russia under a deal expected to be worth around Rs 1,500 crore, said government sources in New Delhi.
The OFB has a spotty history when it comes to striking deals with overseas firms.

In 2012, OFB signed a joint venture with Rosoboronexport and Splav SPA of Russia to manufacture five types of Smerch munitions in a new facility inside an existing factory, but the facility has yet to be built.

Three years earlier, Israel Military Industries (IMI) signed a $240 million agreement with India to build five artillery munitions factories for OFB. However, IMI was later blacklisted for allegedly using bribes to win the contract with OFB.

The MoD has been critical of OFB delays. The MoD source said OFB was late in delivering jackets, boots and parachutes worth more than $200 million, and the Army had to resort to imports.

OFB, with more than 100,000 employees, has annual sales of only $2 billion.
Last year, an inquiry found that faulty OFB-supplied ammunition led to the bursting of the barrel of a 155mm/45-caliber gun being upgraded by one of the factories, the MoD source said.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city ... 981562.cms
Defects boom out of T-72 barrels
Ch Sushil Rao | TNN | Nov 16, 2001, 03.31 AM IST
hyderabad: while hundreds of t-72 main battle tanks (mbts) of the army are long overdue for overhaul, another disturbing fact is that a few hundred of them were fitted with defective barrels, which could cause accidents. the barrels were found defective because they had not been tempered as per specifications. this has been reported by the comptroller general of india (cag). while 454 barrels valued at rs 4 4 crore were rejected because tempering specifications were not followed, an investigation had been ordered into the remaining 305 barrels fitted on the tanks. until march 1998, 35 accidents had taken place in which more than 10 barrels either cracked or burst, said the cag report of last year. according to sources, the defence metallurgical research laboratories (dmrl) in hyderabad also investigated the failure of the 125 mm gun barrels of the t-72 tank and pointed out that the breakages were because of tempering problem. the department of defence production and supplies had awarded the order to supply 774 barrels at a cost of rs 67.73 crore to be fitted on the t-72 tanks. by alloying elements with steel, midhani made hot rolled bars which were sent to ordnance factory, kanpur, for forging. subsequently, they were sent to field gun factory, kanpur, for machining. however, the field gun factory at kanpur carried out heat treatment on the forgings at reduced temperature, which was against the specifications from the original designers. when the heat treatment should have been carried out at 520-570 degrees c, it was done below 430 degrees c, the report said."this has resulted in the defective manufacture of barrels affecting the performance of t-72 tanks,"the cag said.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Kakarat »

Delhi Defence Review‏ @delhidefence
NEWS: @DRDO_India's 155 mm/52 caliber ATAGS howitzer has passed user assisted technical trials in the desert. Mountain trials will follow.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Pratyush »

That was quick. Praying for success in mountains as well.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by manjgu »

i hope they dont test ATAGS by trying to drag it to saltoro ridge as part of mountain trials !! :roll:
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by manjgu »

is creation of firing tables a part of user assisted technical trials?? mountain trials would test a) mobility b) accuracy c) range and what else?
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by jamwal »

What is difference between user assisted and user trials ?
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Pratyush »

manjgu wrote:i hope they dont test ATAGS by trying to drag it to saltoro ridge as part of mountain trials !! :roll:

If the army plans on using the gun at a certain location. Then they will test on how to get the gun on location. That being the case the gun might well be towed to the highest motorable road we have. That will be the test of both the FAT and the gun.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by ks_sachin »

Pratyush wrote:
manjgu wrote:i hope they dont test ATAGS by trying to drag it to saltoro ridge as part of mountain trials !! :roll:

If the army plans on using the gun at a certain location. Then they will test on how to get the gun on location. That being the case the gun might well be towed to the highest motorable road we have. That will be the test of both the FAT and the gun.
I am not sure that there are guns on Saltoro.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by jamwal »

Saltoro is at 7500 meters plus altitude. The guns cant be taken to these heights unless they are taken there piece by piece. Afaik, most supply chains there are dependent on helicopters. Not a place for heavy guns either with huge snow banks and glaciers.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by manjgu »

a) i spoke about Saltoro in jest !! ... hope they not place unrealistic demands/capabilities upon the gun. and hope its inducted in big numbers. b) what happened to Dhanush ( the bofors clone)?? c) and whats on M777's ?
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