Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - August 9, 2014

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 07 Aug 2017 08:06

What uprating and what knowledge? There has been no effort or contract issued to GE to support an uprated GE 414 INS6 unless you mean it would be for the future and refer to future knowledge gained being applied to the Kaveri.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 07 Aug 2017 08:52

NRao wrote:
shiv wrote: Some person on Teetar has made a post about an interview with Christopher in Phorrsss magazine which is behind a firewall. Says F 414 is for AMCA
I have been saying that, F414 INS6 uprated to 110 kN, for AMCA, for eons. Indian IP.

Which mag is that?

Phorrrss

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 07 Aug 2017 11:25

NRao wrote:
shiv wrote: Some person on Teetar has made a post about an interview with Christopher in Phorrsss magazine which is behind a firewall. Says F 414 is for AMCA
I have been saying that, F414 INS6 uprated to 110 kN, for AMCA, for eons. Indian IP.

Which mag is that?

Going out on a limb, I suspect the 125 kN "Kaveri" is the French assisted engine uprated with the knowledge gained from the uprating of the INS6.

Indian IP. Yeah sure.

chola · Post by **chola** » 08 Aug 2017 15:44

French do not have a 125KN engine. Their M88 is in the same class as the Kaveri. So makes perfect sense for M88 elements to fux Kaveri.

But makes no sense whatsoever for French to think about racheting up Kaveri/M88 core to AL-31 specs.

In fact, India has greater experience with 125KN class engines than the French since HAL builds components for the AL-31 in the MKI.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 10 Aug 2017 20:53

India to increase firepower of Su-30MKI to counter China and Pakistan

To counter China and Pakistan, India will increase firepower of its deadly fighter Su-30MKI. The enhancement will be done under the Rs 3,000 crore proposal which was recently cleared by the Narendra Modi government.

The aircraft will be equipped with new reconnaissance pods which will help detect hardened terrorists in remote locations such as mountains and bunkers.

It can also identify bunkers built by the enemy in hidden terrain. The reconnaissance pods will help analyse suspected terrains where high value enemy assets or terrorists could be hiding and further locate the target and eliminate it.

Such reconnaissance pods were not available during Kargil war. With its presence, the Air Force could have easily destroyed the Pakistani Army and the terrorists hiding in the cover of bunkers made up of boulders and small natural caves in the higher reaches.

The Air Force describes the Sukhoi as its air dominance fighter because it allows the service to perform a multiplicity of missions required to keep up with India's rising global stature. The Sukhoi's versatility- owing to its extended range, speed, firepower and super-maneuverability - has given the IAF considerable freedom in deploying the aircraft in offensive missions.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 10 Aug 2017 20:57

^^ Suppose to be litening 4 targeting pod

Chinmay · Post by **Chinmay** » 10 Aug 2017 21:31

Austin wrote:^^ Suppose to be litening 4 targeting pod

Not the ELM 2060? Sounds more plausible.

Zynda · Post by **Zynda** » 10 Aug 2017 21:37

When is Super-30 upgrade supposed to happen? Or is it still in discussion stage? I guess until a AESA FCR is ported over to Su-30 and is found to be working satisfactorily...the upgrade won't happen.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 11 Aug 2017 06:30

Austin lots of FUD in that article. What are hardened terrorists?

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 11 Aug 2017 06:42

Q. What are hardened terrorists?
A. Terrorists who are dead and thus they developed rigor mortis, hence the term hardened terrorists.

That article is laughable indeed.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 11 Aug 2017 07:42

sounds a like a high res SAR radar pod and a new thermal & visual imaging pod.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 11 Aug 2017 07:44

since its GE in the picture for 414upg, can we not ask for the defunct F136 instead minus its vstol tricks?

that has much more upgrade potential than end of line 414 which is approaching its physical limits and USN is unlikely to fund a upgrade with money flowing to JSF F135 engine program.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 11 Aug 2017 11:09

Singha wrote:since its GE in the picture for 414upg, can we not ask for the defunct F136 instead minus its vstol tricks?

that has much more upgrade potential than end of line 414 which is approaching its physical limits and USN is unlikely to fund a upgrade with money flowing to JSF F135 engine program.

Though the engine is fully developed, it will still involve cost of productionizing (a billion dollar or two) the engine to be bankrolled by us entirely and we will probably only get it in readymade conditions. Absolutely no ToT or production transfer, due to Export control limitations, I would guess. If we are ready for this, I can't think why GE would say no. Not sure about Uncle Sam though. It would put Su-30 MKI on steroids.

But what happened to PAKFA engines..? Those should be a better choice for us, since we will be buying them anyway. And its suppose to be as good as F135/6 on paper.

Zynda · Post by **Zynda** » 11 Aug 2017 13:59

Not PAK-FA engines...the current 117S engines that is powering Su-35. Plenty powerful though (32K lbs wet 19.5K lbs dry thrust)...may not be as efficient as the latest Western ones.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 11 Aug 2017 16:15

Zynda wrote:Not PAK-FA engines...the current 117S engines that is powering Su-35. Plenty powerful though (32K lbs wet 19.5K lbs dry thrust)...may not be as efficient as the latest Western ones.

I wanted to refer to the Izdeliye-30 engine. Because that's suppose to be the final engine on the PAKFA and it is comparable to F136 which Singha was talking about. The question that whether Su-30 can really use the excessive thrust levels these engines can provide is there. I think its a waste. Al41FP/F117s would be good enough. But the context was 'getting F136 from GE'. If that's the class of engine is what one want, Izdeliye-30 makes more sense, since we should be getting them on our PAKFA, if everything goes well (which is a big question mark. )

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 11 Aug 2017 16:32

Singha wrote:since its GE in the picture for 414upg, can we not ask for the defunct F136 instead minus its vstol tricks?

that has much more upgrade potential than end of line 414 which is approaching its physical limits and USN is unlikely to fund a upgrade with money flowing to JSF F135 engine program.

The GE F414 is the most important propulsion program from a US DON perspective. There are and will be more than 600 fast jets and possibly drones that will depend upon it through the 2020s, 30s, and into the 40s. It is just that they won't begin funding enhancements out of their budgets till the early to mid 2020s since they won't need higher performance till later that decade.

GE already has secured a customer for the F414 on a 5th generation new aircraft so it is quite likely that its upgrade path would be a multi-nation funded program. As far as their other advanced engines are concerned, they are focused on the GEW that is currently ongoing and very much planning for their demonstration programs in a few years time. Outside of the UK, that was involved in the early phases of the NG propulsion programs I don't think they will be looking to offer these programs for bi-lateral or multi-lateral cooperation.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 11 Aug 2017 20:15

brar_w wrote:
Singha wrote:since its GE in the picture for 414upg, can we not ask for the defunct F136 instead minus its vstol tricks?

that has much more upgrade potential than end of line 414 which is approaching its physical limits and USN is unlikely to fund a upgrade with money flowing to JSF F135 engine program.
The GE F414 is the most important propulsion program from a US DON perspective. There are and will be more than 600 fast jets and possibly drones that will depend upon it through the 2020s, 30s, and into the 40s. It is just that they won't begin funding enhancements out of their budgets till the early to mid 2020s since they won't need higher performance till later that decade.

GE already has secured a customer for the F414 on a 5th generation new aircraft so it is quite likely that its upgrade path would be a multi-nation funded program. As far as their other advanced engines are concerned, they are focused on the GEW that is currently ongoing and very much planning for their demonstration programs in a few years time. Outside of the UK, that was involved in the early phases of the NG propulsion programs I don't think they will be looking to offer these programs for bi-lateral or multi-lateral cooperation.

I believe GE well placed to push the "physical limits" of F414 for couple of decades into the future and keep it contemporary, if and when needed. They have quite a few options to keep it improving. Its a matter of funding and export control factors. Luckily for it, the engine sits in a sweet spot where there is a lot of demand but no real competition for it, not for a while at least. But due to restrictions on technology, not all the possible options would be available for outside US customers, obviously. But some of them should be, such as deep redesign using improved 3D aerodynamics and better optimization of design, reduction in weight using later technology manufacturing etc. The EE version already touches T/W of 10. Improved life at this thrust level and its already reaching F119 level. For USN of coarse the option of CMC tech infusion would be available, which can do wonders 10-15 yrs from now.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 11 Aug 2017 21:28

Yeah there is plenty of potential left in the family, particularly given the sheer number of applications it is going to be used in. NASA is using it for the skunk works prototype supersonic aircraft as well. The time-lines don't line up for some customers, particularly South Korea but as far as the USN is concerned they are unlikely to invest in SH/Growler engine upgrades until they sunset the procurement program which will likely be closed in the 2020-2022 time-frame. GE has invested quite a decent amount of their own capital but from now on most of that IR&D will be headed towards their future category 1 programs given that they are locked in a competition that will decide their bottom line in the military engine market for decades to come.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 22 Aug 2017 01:17

As Sukhoi-30MKI production nears end, HAL worries about future orders
http://ajaishukla.blogspot.ca/2017/08/a ... s-end.html

“I have just Rs 61,000 crore ($9.5 billion) of orders, including 35 Su-30MKIs and 73 Dhruv ALHs. That is just three years work, at our current turnover of Rs 20,000 crore ($3.1 billion per year). What lies ahead for HAL’s 20 manufacturing divisions built on 12,000 acres of land, and 30,000 skilled employees? Over the years, the government has invested Rs 50,000 crore ($7.8 billion) in HAL”, says T Suvarna Raju, the company’s chairman and managing director.

Vips · Post by **Vips** » 22 Aug 2017 02:26

No reason to throw good money after bad. Before HAL turns into another Air India , Privatise it and lay the foundation of a MIC (Dynamic and delivering MIC not a sarkari one)

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 22 Aug 2017 04:07

The best bet for su-30 line is to possibly order 2 squadrons more, and then switch to pakfa production.

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 22 Aug 2017 05:59

That puts the number of Su30mki BUILT AT 237!! with 6 crashes, we are holding 231 SU30MKIs

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 22 Aug 2017 10:05

What about Super MKI program , that should keep HAL busy during deep MLU plus the normal overhaul they do.

May be 2 new Squadron of Super MKI would be useful to replace IAF/IN Jag IM in the next 8 years ?

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 22 Aug 2017 10:07

Aditya G wrote:The best bet for su-30 line is to possibly order 2 squadrons more, and then switch to pakfa production.

+1. Even better if these should be Super MKI std. using inputs from Pakfa.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 22 Aug 2017 23:54

Cain Marko, Does HAL look like a development organization?

Why setup IAF for failure. All they are asking is more orders to keep the line alive till the next gen aircraft comes along.

Besides how will 40 aircraft justify a new upgrade?

Next you will have IDRW types write reams on why HAL can build a new SU-30 MKP for pakfa features.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 23 Aug 2017 00:42

Why can't 2 more MKI squadrons be ordered to the super-30 standard instead of upgrading them later as soon as the super-30 program is finalized that is.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 23 Aug 2017 01:36

Where will they get them from and adds to the cost and delays the arrival.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 23 Aug 2017 02:18

We are going to be upgrading the current platform to super 30 anyways. Almost everything that needs to be replaced will be pulled out and newer version of the same will be installed. Why can't we just make the new builds to Su-30 config to begin with? That way IAF gets 2 new MKI builds that don't need to be upgraded. Won't this reduce the total cost of ownership of the platform rather than building old and replacing bits 6-8 years down the road when all others have been upgraded and it's time for these guys to get upgraded?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 24 Aug 2017 09:05

You are right. Are the super packages available or developed?
We should explore that.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 24 Aug 2017 09:39

ramana wrote:Cain Marko, Does HAL look like a development organization?

Why setup IAF for failure. All they are asking is more orders to keep the line alive till the next gen aircraft comes along.

Besides how will 40 aircraft justify a new upgrade?

Next you will have IDRW types write reams on why HAL can build a new SU-30 MKP for pakfa features.

Like cybaru said it. ..the package is developed mainly by the oem. Hal has only to put it together.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 24 Aug 2017 10:46

High Resolution Walk Around

Su-34 https://postimg.org/gallery/lslddsyo/
Su-35 https://www.flickr.com/photos/100009549 ... 5375253980

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 24 Aug 2017 11:25

Indonesia Su-35 Flanker deal @ $1.14 Billion for 11 Aircraft including offset works out to ~ $103 Million per aircraft
http://www.janes.com/article/73295/indo ... -programme

Compare that to HAL makes MKI @ ~ $60 million

Kersi · Post by **Kersi** » 24 Aug 2017 14:01

Chinmay wrote:
Austin wrote:^^ Suppose to be litening 4 targeting pod
Not the ELM 2060? Sounds more plausible.

I think we use EL/M 2060 LOROP pods on SU 30 MKI

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 19 Sep 2017 11:10

Check the offset for Indonesia Su-35 Deal worth $1.14 Billion for 11 Aircraft , Turns out to $103 Million per aircraft https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... ombat-jets

The deal is worth $1.14 billion and was arranged by Russian defense agency Rostec with Indonesian trading company PT Perusahaan Perdagangan Indonesia (PPI). Indonesia will pay 50 percent of the acquisition cost ($570 million) by exporting a variety of products to Russia. Another 35 percent will be offset.

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 19 Sep 2017 21:01

2021 fpr tests of air launched missile ?

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 03 Oct 2017 20:08

Three more women fighter pilots to join IAF
http://www.deccanherald.com/content/635 ... ilots.html

Indian Air Force will have three more women fighter pilots, who are set to join the service in December 2017. The trio of Rashi Raina, Shivangi Singh and Pratibha are currently undergoing the second phase of their training at an IAF flying establishment at Hikimpet, on the completion of which they would be commissioned, sources told DH. Post-commissioning the last phase of their flight training would begin in Bidar in north Karnataka.

They join the force in June 2017 after two previous rounds of searches by the IAF in 2016 to find out more women pilots for fighter flying remained futile. Rashi, Shivangi and Pratibha learn their basic flying with Pilatus PC-7 aircraft at the Air Force Academy, Dundigal after which they went to Hakimpet for the intermediate training with Kiran Mark-II aircraft. The final part of the training would happen with Hawk advanced jet trainer early next year.

The commissioning of the three new girls is likely to happen weeks after the first batch of three IAF women pilots are set to create history to become part of IAF fighter squadrons following successful completion of the three phases of their training. The last part of their advanced training took place at Bidar and Kalaikunda. Their training schedule was delayed by nearly three months.

The trio of Bhawna Kanth, Avani Chaturvedi and Mohana Singh graduated from the IAF academy in Dundigal in December 2016 and subsequently proceeded to specialised fighter training. “Their training is now complete. They are likely to be commissioned by December 31, 2017. Most likely they will fly the Su-30 MKI,” said a source. Bhawna, Avani and Mohana volunteered for the fighter stream after the NDA government ended a gender-based combat exclusion policy in October 2015. For the first time, women were permitted in a combat role in any branches of the military in India.

mukulchau · Post by **mukulchau** » 04 Oct 2017 19:22

Quick Q?
How long a su30 mki can fly with full after burner continuously on?

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 04 Oct 2017 19:38

Not sure about MKI, but F-15E, a similar class of heavy fighter, can go 10 mins on full afterburner. Number should be similar for the MKI.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 04 Oct 2017 19:41

mukulchau wrote:Quick Q?
How long a su30 mki can fly with full after burner continuously on?

Cant be too long. The engines are not rated for continuous after burner usage.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 04 Oct 2017 20:54

mukulchau wrote:Quick Q?
How long a su30 mki can fly with full after burner continuously on?

Rule of thumb - 1000lbs per engine per minute on full AB.

More specifically, From Al-31FP sfc numbers (54g/kN.sec) one Al31 would guzzle 400kg fuel for one minute on full throttle. You can do the math from that number and Su-30MKI's fuel capacity.