Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 02 Oct 2017 21:47

Good that we know the demand forecast of the Nag type missile at 2000 initially and then 8000 eventually.
A production run of 500/year is great. For that means total 8000/500 run for 16 years. Something for planners to work on.

Thanks tsarkar for pointing this out.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 03 Oct 2017 09:05

Thakur_B wrote:PARS 3 and spike are the analogues of Nag. Tow is an older design.

Israeli & European analogues yes. The TOW-2A/B is the American analogue. It's got much longer history but the missile itself has been upgraded and modernized over the years. It's still remains in production for the US military (among others).

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 03 Oct 2017 11:40

Viv S wrote:
Thakur_B wrote:PARS 3 and spike are the analogues of Nag. Tow is an older design.
Israeli & European analogues yes. The TOW-2A/B is the American analogue. It's got much longer history but the missile itself has been upgraded and modernized over the years. It's still remains in production for the US military (among others).

The American anologue is the hellfire and not the tow.

Konkurs in Indian service is tow equivalent.

sas · Post by **sas** » 03 Oct 2017 15:20

Iterative designs of TOW/BGM never had fire-and-forget capability.

TOW/BGM sensors were
1) SACLOS for guidance (Line-of-Sight)
2) IR/Xenon receiver for tracking IR and Xenon beam from strobes.
3) MAGNETIC SENSOR, OPTICAL-EMI detector and some variants had microprocessor for proximity detection.

Unlike TOW/BGM, PROSPINA is fire-and-forget with it's own MWIR-IIR and TAS on NAMICA.

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 03 Oct 2017 15:45

Hellfire does not have version equivalent to Prospina i.e. there is no IR Guided version of Hellfire. We are watching the arguments of cost to Kill Nag similar to the arguments used against HTT-40. Incidentally if you google for actual deals for Spike and Javelin then cost of these much smaller missiles is around USD 250,000 per missile.

sas · Post by **sas** » 03 Oct 2017 17:09

Gyan wrote:Hellfire does not have version equivalent to Prospina i.e. there is no IR Guided version of Hellfire. We are watching the arguments of cost to Kill Nag similar to the arguments used against HTT-40. Incidentally if you google for actual deals for Spike and Javelin then cost of these much smaller missiles is around USD 250,000 per missile.

There is a Fire-and-Forget hellfire. AGM-114L longbow hellfire is Fire-and-Forget with MMW. If I am not wrong, I think we are getting AGM-114L along with 39 AH-64D .

IMHO unitary cost of MAPATGM like spike-mr or javelin will be something between USD 20,000-27,000. The complete system cost which includes CLU+LTA+BCU+MISSILE will be close to above mentioned figure of USD 250,000 to 260,000.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 03 Oct 2017 17:10

It's unimportant what is the cost of a system that is imported. What is important is the cost of nag on a per missile basis. If the imported components of the missile increase costs.

Then the obvious solution is to have a domestic supply source for the missile. But a domestic source will require order's. Something that I see the indian army has committed to with 2000 initial orders and 8000 total orders.

So start production of the missile and indignise it as you go along.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 03 Oct 2017 18:08

As of now the Indian Army has committed to zero missiles, since it is yet to clear user trials. The trials conducted so far were developmental trials.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 03 Oct 2017 22:53

Why don't they have two different versions of the Nag/Prospina?
The older desi seeker can be deployed in the colder climates and the new more heat sensitive ones that are being developed, be deployed in Rajasthan once available?
In the meanwhile deploy an initial series production for the Ladakh area no?

The wait for a silver bullet to be used for all occasions, at tin bullet prices is delaying programs

Another thing is that India's troops in Leh/Ladakh along the LAC will have to take into account armed chinese drones overhead.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 04 Oct 2017 03:01

Karan M wrote:As of now the Indian Army has committed to zero missiles, since it is yet to clear user trials. The trials conducted so far were developmental trials.

This is where the problem is.

Its not like DRDO developed the missile out of thin air to meet bogus requirements.

I think the MoD procurement system needs a whack from the minister.

I agree the user trials etc., is needed if this was an ab initio missile from abroad which was developed to foreign military requirements and IA would need to see how it would fit into their way of doing things.

srin · Post by **srin** » 04 Oct 2017 07:29

Not sure if this is related to Nag ...
http://bharatshakti.in/lt-mbda-joint-ve ... -missiles/

Briefing a group of Indian media personnel in Paris, MBDA officials said some of the programmes exclusive to the JV include the Missile Moyenne Portée, or Medium Range Missile (MMP), a Fifth Generation Anti-Tank Guided Missile (ATGM 5).

The missile has several specialities. It can be fired from multiple platforms, has a passive seeker with dual band high resolution colour TV and uncooled IR. It also has automated seeker lock on by image correlation. The missile has a fire-and-forget capability. In addition the missile operator can take over command in-flight for targeting and retargeting.

MBDA proposes to produce ATGM 5 in India with Transfer of Technology. MBDA is ready to support an Indian development of an upgraded ATGM 5 with longer range of up to 10 km. MBDA would also want to provide the ATGM 5 in land and helicopter based configurations. MBDA’s India Head Loïc Piedevache, while briefing the media contingent said, “We are very confident of getting the ATGM-5 order. We built the JV to give a response to all RFPs.”

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 04 Oct 2017 08:57

Somehow whenever our products near production, the best of imported mal is shown with foreign trips to supplier locations for inspection.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 04 Oct 2017 09:21

Aditya_V wrote:Somehow whenever our products near production, the best of imported mal is shown with foreign trips to supplier locations for inspection.

Thats always been the case as per Kalam Sir in Wings of Fire , First Deny and when we make then Sabotage by offering similar product

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 04 Oct 2017 11:09

Aeons ago an apocryphal tale.When we wanted the German engine for the Arjun it was denied. The day the first desi equiv. started functioning,the Leopard's engine was made available! What engine does the Arjun come with? No prizes for the right answer!

The ATGM req. is vast,with ATGMs req. for many platforms,helos,AVs,man-portable,and drones.The GOI should take a decision to equip the forces with 2-3 systems,one desi (NAG),the other two could be anew system and upgrades of exg. if possible with new seekers,propellant,etc.,which may bring down costs.i think that one req. is for an 8km ATGM.A smaller lighter ATGM would be preferable for ground troops.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 04 Oct 2017 18:47

Philip, A question on how IA comes up with requirements for the number of ATGMs?
Nag is a special purpose ATGM. To forecast a need for 500 Nags per year till 16 years seems like taking on the Warsaw pact tank armada. On top of this Rohitvats has inventoried the vast numbers of other ATGMs already in the pipeline.

So what gives? Is this a substitute for artillery which was starved till recently? But again the numbers for this is also forecast quite high.

Also there is a Prisoner's Dilemma type game going on between arms suppliers and India.

- Political considerations guide the arms suppliers from denying advanced technology to India which is a vast market.
- Same political considerations guide the countries to raise the threat to India : Pakistan, China and internal insurgencies.
- India launches programs to beat the system.
- As soon as the technology is ready to be produced in quantity, the arms suppliers jump in as they would lose the market.
- Knowing this cycle DRDO announces sky-high goals for in-house weapons development by including all the features from different weapons systems. At same time they know its an inducement for arms sellers to break consensus.
- The Army and Air Force rightly demand extensive trials for such a complex system and are never sure if they would work as there is still reluctance to accept native weapons even when developed with their inputs and trials.
-The politicians(netas) and babus are happy to nix the local production as they can get commissions.
- Media is under the Neta- Babu nexus. So the fourth estate acts as part of the first two: neta and babu. Services are in doldrums.
- New netas come the old scams get unveiled and the arms imports are suspended.
- Loser are the services whose inventory gets obsolete.
- Every ten years Pakistan or China will raise the temperature at the borders and all are caught napping.
- Again vast informed op-eds are written and weapons are imported at high price due to scarcity and bokwas articles written about how some country stepped in to air ship needed weapons to stem the tide. Forgotten in the narrative is that same country was part of the bribe nexus and got blacklisted.

So if you see the litany what are the steps in India's control?

- Producing weapons in India with Indian capital will cut this cycle of fear and gloating.
- DRDO should learn from ISRO and BARC and embark on mission and success oriented programs.
- Services should reject the imported offer however tempting it is and insist on local produced weapons. They hold the key as no one can pressure them to buy something that is not to their liking.
- Indian public should elect nationalist minded netas.

darshhan · Post by **darshhan** » 04 Oct 2017 19:13

ramana wrote:Philip, A question on how IA comes up with requirements for the number of ATGMs?
Nag is a special purpose ATGM. To forecast a need for 500 Nags per year till 16 years seems like taking on the Warsaw pact tank armada. On top of this Rohitvats has inventoried the vast numbers of other ATGMs already in the pipeline.

So what gives? Is this a substitute for artillery which was starved till recently? But again the numbers for this is also forecast quite high.

Ramana ji, while the question is not directed at me, I will try to answer this one.

1. Army sees more fighting in built up areas in future warfare. All these ATGMs will come in handy then.
2. Army does not want to depend on air force or does not take air supremacy for granted. So lot of action that could have been done by IAF will be duplicated by Army. Hence need for large nos. Of Atgms.
3. And yes your point about artillery wherever it is applicable in scenarios needing precision fire.

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 04 Oct 2017 20:51

To add, I think Rohit mentioned it in his fantastic post too, that IA uses ATGMs in anti-bunker role too. We've seen videos of these emerge over the past year + too.

KBDagha · Post by **KBDagha** » 06 Oct 2017 15:34

DRDO SAAW
https://twitter.com/Nexoft000/status/916238477510901760

DRDO NGARM
https://twitter.com/Nexoft000/status/916224931381239808

Courtsey: @Nexoft000

nash · Post by **nash** » 06 Oct 2017 15:48

NGARM in trials , WOW it's a news to me, a good one.

sum · Post by **sum** » 06 Oct 2017 15:55

Looks unusually smaller in size than their contemporaries? Expected it to be a larger size or maybe its my viewing issue

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 06 Oct 2017 16:18

There were rumours of the SAAW actually being a powered Air to surface missile. Doesn't look that way from that clip.

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 06 Oct 2017 17:05

have any of these been inducted?? wake me when they are in operational use.. same with ATGAS, Desi Bofors.. etc etc.

srai · Post by **srai** » 06 Oct 2017 17:09

KBDagha wrote:DRDO SAAW
https://twitter.com/Nexoft000/status/916238477510901760

DRDO NGARM
https://twitter.com/Nexoft000/status/916224931381239808

Courtsey: @Nexoft000

SAAW

NGARM

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 06 Oct 2017 17:16

srai wrote:
KBDagha wrote:DRDO SAAW
https://twitter.com/Nexoft000/status/916238477510901760

DRDO NGARM
https://twitter.com/Nexoft000/status/916224931381239808

Courtsey: @Nexoft000
SAAW

Looks like a Jaguar to me..

It rolls 180 degrees and the wings come out

Chinmay · Post by **Chinmay** » 06 Oct 2017 17:33

The SAAW is the desi SDB-1/Spice-250 equivalent, AFAIK. So the guidance will be IRNSS/INS?

kvraghav · Post by **kvraghav** » 06 Oct 2017 17:57

Is that a dual rack on which SAAW is hosted?

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 06 Oct 2017 18:22

Prasad wrote:There were rumours of the SAAW actually being a powered Air to surface missile. Doesn't look that way from that clip.

It might be a glide bomb like Garuthma.

srin · Post by **srin** » 06 Oct 2017 18:46

Prasad wrote:There were rumours of the SAAW actually being a powered Air to surface missile. Doesn't look that way from that clip.

Looks powered. Isn't that an exhause nozzle at the back ?

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 06 Oct 2017 19:42

KBDagha wrote:DRDO SAAW
https://twitter.com/Nexoft000/status/916238477510901760

DRDO NGARM
https://twitter.com/Nexoft000/status/916224931381239808

Courtsey: @Nexoft000

Jingo khush hua...

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 06 Oct 2017 20:03

srin wrote:
Prasad wrote:There were rumours of the SAAW actually being a powered Air to surface missile. Doesn't look that way from that clip.
Looks powered. Isn't that an exhause nozzle at the back ?

It's a square nozzle - like the man from the Cape. Will tell the whole OT story if anyone is interested.

sudhan · Post by **sudhan** » 06 Oct 2017 20:23

The nozzles at the back could be for the rockets that help the unit dig deep under the tarmac before exploding..

sudhan · Post by **sudhan** » 06 Oct 2017 20:24

shiv wrote:
srin wrote:
Looks powered. Isn't that an exhause nozzle at the back ?
It's a square nozzle - like the man from the Cape. Will tell the whole OT story if anyone is interested.

Please do!

srin · Post by **srin** » 06 Oct 2017 20:28

sudhan wrote:The nozzles at the back could be for the rockets that help the unit dig deep under the tarmac before exploding..

Thanks - that makes a lot of sense.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 06 Oct 2017 20:55

It is the front two of a quad pack which were populated. The plane is a Jaguar. I don't think the munitions are powered for flight. But could be for end game. I have seen drawings with butt-caps. I thought the fins were to be folded during carriage. More variants in the making.

NGARM looks like a scaled up Astra. This is what happens when one reaches critical mass. We have reached there in missiles. All hail the embargoes.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 06 Oct 2017 21:30

sudhan wrote:
shiv wrote: It's a square nozzle - like the man from the Cape. Will tell the whole OT story if anyone is interested.
Please do!

OK. It is OT but the square exhaust reminds me of

There was a man from the cape
who wanted to make love to an ape
the ape said you fool
I have a square tool
And I will bugger your ass out of shape

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 06 Oct 2017 21:46

Yes, the design drawings of the SAAW showed that the fins were folded

vasu raya · Post by **vasu raya** » 06 Oct 2017 23:21

shiv wrote:It rolls 180 degrees and the wings come out

Nice control on the SAAW after the sudarshan issues, the boxy airframe stands out maybe increased internal space and the wing is not a single blade unlike the Nirbhay

on the NGARM, I thought they needed a bigger nose for the direction finding sensor but if that is managed in a Astra sized airframe, good development

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 06 Oct 2017 23:44

It is not Astra sized. It is larger. It is Astra shaped.

vasu raya · Post by **vasu raya** » 06 Oct 2017 23:51

Ah! good thanks, as another poster observed the sensor and airframe size is still smaller than contemporary ones

sas · Post by **sas** » 07 Oct 2017 01:22

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Aft end it's not a square nozzle. That square slot looks like a slot opening for deploying armament parachute.

Nozzles having rectangular cross-sectional divergent portion has it's own set of merits, when compared to circular cross-sectional divergent portion.

Primary advantages of a divergent portion sporting rectangular cross-section are high expansion ratio in supersonic flow regime and reduced noise levels during operation, but none of these advantages has got nothing to do with SAAW's flight profile.

SAAW it seems doesn't have a rocket motor for powered flight, but it's warheads could be dispensed using booster motor for high terminal velocity impact.

SAAW's sequence of flight profile could be like
1) SAAW air dropped from launch platform
2) Deploys it's wings and glides close towards the target (air field runway)
3) Then after reaching certain minimum altitude over the target, parachute deploys
4) Parachute creates drag and drag in turn creates an impact angle for dispensing the warheads
5) Front portion of the fairing is separated
6) At certain angle warheads are dispensed with booster motor
7) Dispensed warhead with high terminal velocity impacts and creates craters.