Military Flight Safety

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 07 Oct 2017 15:35

Noob question to Tsarkar and Deejay sirs - is paradrop from Helicopters more risky in general, as compared to fixed wing aircraft ?

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 07 Oct 2017 16:49

I have done many para drops from Helicopters. I always felt it was safe. Never flown transports so can't say. However some DZs do not have enough straight in approach and turning radius for transports and only helicopters do para drops there.

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 07 Oct 2017 17:12

Thank you. I framed my question wrong but your answer has clarified the point i was wondering about.

negi · Post by **negi** » 07 Oct 2017 20:00

I wonder if tail rotor less designs lend themselves better for transport ops ; I mean if we look at the Chinook family there is no tail boom and rotor aft of the rear doors and if my understanding is right a parachute will not catch an updraft and get entangled into the main rotors as latter are pushing much more air downwards than any updraft can send upwards , however in choppers with tail rotors the area outside the main rotor blade tips is vulnerable to objects being pushed up by gust/updrafts.

joygoswami · Post by **joygoswami** » 08 Oct 2017 08:29

MUST WATCH. Super Puma crash investigation Norway

On 29 April 2016, a CHC Helikopter Service Eurocopter EC225 Super Puma helicopter, carrying oil workers from the Gullfaks B platform in the North Sea, crashed near Turøy, a Norwegian coastal island 36 kilometres (22 mi) from the city of Bergen. Several witnesses reported initially seeing nothing untoward with the helicopter flying steadily, before the sound suddenly changed and it started to sway. A moment later its main rotor assembly detached from the aircraft and the fuselage plummeted to the ground and exploded into flames. All 13 crew and passengers died in the crash.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 08 Oct 2017 08:56

^^Lest anyone labour under the mistaken impression that this degree of thoroughness is not followed in India in accident investigation- I will point out two references. One is on BRF and I have made a video of the story - with less detail. the other is a book
1. The book
https://www.amazon.in/Flight-Himalayan- ... ishnaswamy

2. The story posted on BR
viewtopic.php?t=334

My video based on the story
https://youtu.be/QKbQdYlpCAY

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 09 Oct 2017 06:54

There are pictures floating on Twitter and on the internet of the fallen members of the IAF and the Indian Army in the helicopter crash. They are gruesome to see. Out of respect to them and to their families, I plead with you to not post them in BRF. Please. I realize this will cause some to go and out search for these images and I cannot stop you from doing that. But please, do not post them in BRF.

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 09 Oct 2017 08:48

Rakesh wrote:There are pictures floating on Twitter and on the internet of the fallen members of the IAF and the Indian Army in the helicopter crash. They are gruesome to see. Out of respect to them and to their families, I plead with you to not post them in BRF. Please. I realize this will cause some to go and out search for these images and I cannot stop you from doing that. But please, do not post them in BRF.

Thank you for posting this.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 09 Oct 2017 08:51

The IAF chief said on TV that the tail rotor had come off the Mi which crashed killing all on board.

He said that he would not say more because the BoI had already been convened.

Disengagement of tail rotor caused Arunachal Pradesh helicopter crash, says Air Force Chief

“Prima facie it appears that the tail rotor of the chopper had come off. It will not be proper for me to say why it came off as a court of inquiry has already been ordered to probe the crash,” the IAF chief told the media on the sidelines of an event to celebrate the Air Force Day.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 07 Nov 2017 06:58

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/926669647801233408 ---> It was nose-on-tarmac situation for the IAF MiG-27 that burst a tyre on landing at Jodhpur yesterday.

Shameek · Post by **Shameek** » 08 Nov 2017 02:13

^^ The quality of that newspaper report is very poor. 'Ending gear' and planes 'nozzle'? Also, it would be nice to mention if the pilot is safe and sound.

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 24 Nov 2017 16:46

Indian Air Force's trainer aircraft Kiran crashes in Telangana, pilot safe

A Kiran trainer aircraft, that took off from Hakimpet Air Force station crashed in Siddipet. Woman cadet on board, who was undergoing fighter training, had ejected in time.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 24 Nov 2017 19:54

https://twitter.com/ShivAroor/status/934004923544453120

Indian Air Force cadet has a narrow escape -- ejects just before her HJT-16 Kiran trainer jet crashed today at 2pm about 50km from Hakimpet. Minor ejection-related injuries, but she's fine.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 03 Dec 2017 02:40

Emergency landing for MiG-21 at city airport
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cit ... 898121.cms

A MiG-21 of Indian Air Force (IAF) which was on its routine sortie had an emergency landing at the Jaipur airport when the team of two pilots realized some technical snag. Both wished to land at Jaipur airport and after getting permission from the air traffic control, the aircraft landed at the Jaipur airport. Engineers of the IAF will repair it so that it can fly to the next destination on Sunday. According to authorities, the aircraft landed safely at Jaipur airport. "It had some technical snag and the pilots asked us about landing it at our airport at 3.15 pm on Saturday. Their team will arrive in Jaipur on Sunday to repair the aircraft. Presently, the aircraft is stationed at the airport," said a senior officer of air traffic control on Saturday. According to the sources, MiG-21 was on its routine sortie from Gwalior to Jaisalmer. Authorities said that despite the snag the pilots managed to get a safe landing at the airport.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 03 Dec 2017 08:18

Rakesh wrote:Emergency landing for MiG-21 at city airport
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cit ... 898121.cms

the team of two pilots realized some technical snag. Both wished to land at Jaipur airport

What if one pilot had not wished to land at Jaipur?

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 03 Dec 2017 09:14

Why don't you ask them?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 03 Jan 2018 20:24

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/948465423233765376

@IndianNavy MiG-29K fighter with under-trainee pilot goes off runway while taking off at Goa airport. Pilot ejects to safety. Fire on aircraft extinguished.

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 04 Jan 2018 06:15

shiv wrote:
Rakesh wrote:Emergency landing for MiG-21 at city airport
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cit ... 898121.cms

the team of two pilots realized some technical snag. Both wished to land at Jaipur airport
What if one pilot had not wished to land at Jaipur?

Hakeem isn't one pilot a Chief and the other an Indian in a dual seater?

Indulge me a bit here...going back to my journalistic days I was trying to ascertain from the news report why this aircraft was flying from Gwalior to Jaisalmer on a routine sortie....

Now Maharajpur AFB (40 Wing) has no Mig 21's. TACDE used to have Mig 21's (I don't think they have these anymore). So presumably this was a aircraft which could potentially be based as Jaisalmer and went to Gwalior for 'chai - biskoot' and developed a snag on the way back and ......

So if this was a aircraft from Jaisalmer (assumption) then it probably belongs to 41 wing. But from all the available literature there is no Mig 21 squadron in Jaisalmer..

So what gives...unless this was an aircraft from Uttarlai / Bhuj .....

This is the kind of sleuthing we had to do to get the facts right before even making the phone calls.....

shaun · Post by **shaun** » 04 Jan 2018 09:44

Pic of mig 29 k

Aborted take off , going by the visuals , the bird is still repairable . Damage to the right wing . Can ejection burns up the cockpit ??

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 05 Jan 2018 06:42

From Black Panthers Sqn. Too bad the serial number is not shown.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 05 Jan 2018 07:40

MiG-29K crash followed 8 years of engine troubles & frustration about performance
https://theprint.in/2018/01/03/mig-29k- ... -troubles/

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 05 Jan 2018 07:41

https://twitter.com/zone5aviation/statu ... 2555998208 ---> From photos and videos of the MiG-29K incident, it's clear the aircraft ended up off the runway at the eastern end (see map), after failing to halt within the remaining runway length after the pilot aborted take-off from the western end.

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 05 Jan 2018 07:48

i dount it will be repaired...cannabalized for spares..

vasu raya · Post by **vasu raya** » 05 Jan 2018 07:55

In recent times a Mig-21 was saved in Srinagar maybe using crash barriers...

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 06 Jan 2018 06:20

vasu raya wrote:In recent times a Mig-21 was saved in Srinagar maybe using crash barriers...

Vasu Saar, see this....

MiG-29K jet mishap: Goa Naval Air Station operating without crash barrier since 2005
http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/nava ... 24231.html

The eastern end of the runway at Dabolim Airport had an aircraft arrester barrier system until 2005 when it was destroyed in an accident. It has not been replaced since.

Is there a face palm smiley on BR Forums? JEEZ!!!!

Air Marshal PS Ahluwalia, former C-in-C Western Command terms the lack of aircraft arrester barriers 'against the primary norms of flight safety.' "All IAF airbases flying fighters are mandatorily equipped with electrically operated arrester barriers, it's one of the basics of flying fighters," he said.

MoD got time to issue RFP for 57 foreign naval fighters, but no time for the bread-and-butter stuff...

vasu raya · Post by **vasu raya** » 06 Jan 2018 06:46

Rakeshji, is na cheez ko ‘vasu’ naam kaafi hai,

The article says that back in 2005 a Sea Harrier broke through the barrier and crashed into a wall killing the pilot, maybe they lost confidence in that system? the Mig-21 incident should have brought that back...

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 06 Jan 2018 08:15

If I may ask, why do we have a concrete wall so close to the end of runway?

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 06 Jan 2018 15:46

manjgu wrote:i dount it will be repaired...cannabalized for spares..

all "spares" from this aircraft will be quarantined.

Very difficult to use anything from a crashed aircraft without extensive testing and quality certification.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 08 Jan 2018 03:04

https://twitter.com/zone5aviation/statu ... 8790019077 --> Interestingly, while I was chasing up this story, another Naval Aviator told me "The Navy's case for a new barrier is/was being steered by the IAF, but stalled by the the DRDO shoving its usual spoke of 'We'll do it.'"

MIG-29K CRASH AT GOA – A WAKE-UP CALL
http://kaypius.com/2018/01/06/mig-29k-c ... e-up-call/

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 08 Jan 2018 09:27

I am confused on the state of ADRDE's barrier system. I read somewhere that many have been deployed. It saved a Mig-21 in Jammu last year. And these blogs/tweets/reports say that IN can't get the barrier system for want of DRDO's penchant for indigenization.

What is the truth?

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 08 Jan 2018 09:45

Jammu has no Mig 21s and the airfield does not have arrester barrier.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 08 Jan 2018 11:41

Sorry, it was Srinagar and in 2016.

http://www.indiandefensenews.in/2017/01/adrde-seat-ejection-parachutes-arrestor.html

On 20 September 2016, a MiG-21 jet of the IAF overshot the runway at Srinagar Air Force Station. Once again, the pilots ejected out safely using ADRDE Seat Ejection Parachutes. Not just the pilots, the Arrester Barrier System developed by ADRDE also saved the aircraft in this incident.

The Arrester Barrier System is installed at both ends of the runway and is used for stopping forward momentum of the aircraft in case of an emergency during landing overrun or an aborted take-off. ADRDE has developed two types of Arrester Barriers (20 Ton class and 40 Ton Class) and have installed 42 systems of 20 Ton class and eight of 40 Ton Class Arrester barriers at various Air Force stations.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 12 Jan 2018 07:41

For completion...

http://www.tribuneindia.com/news/nation ... 26995.html

Posted at: Jan 11, 2018, 11:18 AM; last updated: Jan 11, 2018, 6:26 PM (IST)
Following mishap, Army suspends ‘slither down' operations from Dhruv
Top sources confirmed to the Tribune on Thursday: “Slithering operations have been suspended till the cause of accident is known.” The Army is suspecting material failure–in simple terms a fault with the material and its sturdiness on the copter.

On January 9, three para-commandos were injured, one of them seriously, while practising slithering operations at the New Delhi parade ground. The contraption fitted on to the helicopter had broken off.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 12 Jan 2018 22:23

shiv wrote:For completion...

http://www.tribuneindia.com/news/nation ... 26995.html
Posted at: Jan 11, 2018, 11:18 AM; last updated: Jan 11, 2018, 6:26 PM (IST)
Following mishap, Army suspends ‘slither down' operations from Dhruv
Top sources confirmed to the Tribune on Thursday: “Slithering operations have been suspended till the cause of accident is known.” The Army is suspecting material failure–in simple terms a fault with the material and its sturdiness on the copter.

On January 9, three para-commandos were injured, one of them seriously, while practising slithering operations at the New Delhi parade ground. The contraption fitted on to the helicopter had broken off.

twitter

It was a Crack in the winch of Dhruv which caused the accident injuring 3 IA soldiers.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 12 Jan 2018 22:31

There is a lot of wear and tear on the chopper clearly. Is there no way to have periodic NDT of key items prone to higher usage cycles?

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 12 Jan 2018 22:37

Karan M wrote:There is a lot of wear and tear on the chopper clearly. Is there no way to have periodic NDT of key items prone to higher usage cycles?

there seem to be some signs of old cracks(??) which have propagated and maybe now under load have failed catastrophically.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 12 Jan 2018 22:45

That's the thing Chetak sirji - if we go by the pic, the chopper was heavily operated.

My concern is whether there is a NDT method (ultrasound, X-ray, visual inspection) mandatorily done every x cycles to ensure no such defects (as much as possible) are missed.

Also, the defect rectification should be public. Otherwise, human tragedy apart, HAL will continue to have a 1000 articles archived for posterity on this incident having occurred, but no answers as to whether and how it was fixed, even though it most certainly will be.

Other designers in India should also learn from this event.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 12 Jan 2018 23:02

Karan M wrote:That's the thing Chetak sirji - if we go by the pic, the chopper was heavily operated.

My concern is whether there is a NDT method (ultrasound, X-ray, visual inspection) mandatorily done every x cycles to ensure no such defects (as much as possible) are missed.

Also, the defect rectification should be public. Otherwise, human tragedy apart, HAL will continue to have a 1000 articles archived for posterity on this incident having occurred, but no answers as to whether and how it was fixed, even though it most certainly will be.

Other designers in India should also learn from this event.

small mercies that no gyani has (yet!!!) mentioned "pilot error".

slithering ops will immediately have been suspended on all dhruvs, the failed part will be inspected on all dhruvs, standard report filed and all concerned will go back to their blissful sleep.

This part should have been tested to failure multiple times, since this is a single point of failure item and like you said, NDT checks should have been in place on a routine basis and also especially before any proposed heavy usage.

Most importantly, this being a mission critical part, one hopes that they went with titanium as opposed to other materials, just to be abundantly cautious.

wig · Post by **wig** » 15 Feb 2018 16:55

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cit ... 931022.cms

IAF chopper crashes in Assam, 2 dead

The incident took place at Sumoimari Chapori, a police officer said, adding that Defence and IAF personnel were on their way to Majuli.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 15 Feb 2018 17:19

^^Sad. But "microlight helicopter"??