Indian Military Helicopters

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 13 Dec 2017 21:45

tsarkar, Thanks for the Mil-17V5 data. Was wondering what's going on. So its fully IAF effort at 3BRD.

80 units is not a small deal.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 13 Dec 2017 21:53

shaun wrote:
.....HAL has sought 50 per cent ToT. However, the matter is still under discussion. HAL’s French partner Safran will also have to roped in for this because the system of Ka-226T has been produced by it....
http://m.thehindubusinessline.com/news/ ... 833804.ece

Odd the MoD is very slow than a bullock cart on the Ka226T deal. Even now no payment released.
very clear that both Ka226T and LUH are to be bought.
Then why not clear the purchase so IA can start training and create procedures for the new helicopter?

Russia plans to deliver 10 Kamov Ka-226T military helicopters to India in a first tranche as part of a $1-billion deal, under which India will procure 200 such copters from that country. It expects the Indian Defence Ministry to make the first tranche of payment by the year-end.

“We plan to deliver the first shipment of 10 helicopters after we receive the first payment. We are still in discussions with the Indian Ministry of Defence as to when the first payment will be made. We hope it will be made by this year,” Russian Helicopters CEO Andrei Boginsky told BusinessLine in an interview.

$1-billion deal
Under the $1-billion deal in which India will be buying 200 Ka-226Ts from Russia, 60 will be procured in fly-away condition while 140 will be produced in India in collaboration with Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL).

Last week, HAL officials visited Moscow to have a meeting with Rosoboronexport, Russia’s sole defence trade agency. They discussed the payment timeline, localisation of Ka-226T, location of the proposed manufacturing plant and terms for transfer of technology (ToT).

“So far our team has gone to six locations in India and we are yet to finalise where we want to build the plant. We have to choose the best...it depends on the rent prices, etc. We have an inter-governmental agreement, according to which we will be sending 60 helicopters to India in fly away condition while the remaining 140 will be manufactured in India,” added Boginsky.

He further said HAL has sought 50 per cent ToT. However, the matter is still under discussion. HAL’s French partner Safran will also have to roped in for this because the system of Ka-226T has been produced by it, he added.

“From our side, we are ready because it is necessary to make a roadmap and it depends on HAL,” he said.

Looking for partners

Russian Helicopters is also scouting for joint ventures with some of India’s leading private defence firms such as Mahindra Defence Systems and Bharat Forge for the Kamov project.

“We need the expertise of local companies for after-sales issues and spare parts. We are in talks with Mahindra and Bharat Forge, which are interested in cooperating with us in this project,” said Boginsky.

Russian Helicopters is also planning to build a Maintenance, Repair and Overhaul (MRO) plant for the Kamov helicopters in India.

Boginky said that the company expects additional orders of Kamov helicopters from India.

“There is a possibility to increase the number of helicopters to more than 200 in future. The Indian Army needs this kind of helicopters. So both governments agreed to 200, but the partnership has an option of increasing the number. We have made a naval version of KA-226T and we are ready to offer that to India,” he said.

In December 2015, at the Indo-Russia summit in Moscow, an inter-governmental agreement was signed for implementation of the project for production of KA-226T helicopters in India.

(The writer was in Russia at the invitation of International Congresses and Exhibitions Ltd to attend the Army-2017 event)

We need a mindmap of this KA226T deal as it has too many players and moving parts.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 13 Dec 2017 23:39

Maybe they can cut the deal from 200 to the 60 that the Russians were going to build and sign it immediately. Like the MRCA deal being scrapped in favor of 36 Rafale's bought off the shelf. The IA can replace their oldest Chetaks while the LUH completes certificaton.

Then the money to be provided to HAL to build Ka-226s can be used to build a second production line for the LUH right from the start.

Rishi_Tri · Post by **Rishi_Tri** » 14 Dec 2017 03:46

nachiket wrote:Maybe they can cut the deal from 200 to the 60 that the Russians were going to build and sign it immediately. Like the MRCA deal being scrapped in favor of 36 Rafale's bought off the shelf. The IA can replace their oldest Chetaks while the LUH completes certificaton.

Then the money to be provided to HAL to build Ka-226s can be used to build a second production line for the LUH right from the start.

Why do even this?

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.in/2017/12/a ... worth.html

HAL Chairperson says that LUH basic certification should be done by mid-18.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 14 Dec 2017 04:25

If you read the HAL chairman speech a week ago both LUH and KA226T are needed.
LUH for IAF need and KA226T for the IA and a small number for IAF.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 14 Dec 2017 04:29

Is there a reason the LUH is 187 vs 197 for Ka-226T. IMO it still makes sense to order another 80-100 Mi17 vs 197 Ka-226T

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 14 Dec 2017 04:34

The Kamov should be bought either for - a) utility to the armed forces or b) for geopolitical reasons. If it does not fit either, then the deal needs to be scrapped, the Russophiles on this board notwithstanding.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 14 Dec 2017 05:14

nachiket wrote:Maybe they can cut the deal from 200 to the 60 that the Russians were going to build and sign it immediately. Like the MRCA deal being scrapped in favor of 36 Rafale's bought off the shelf. The IA can replace their oldest Chetaks while the LUH completes certificaton.

Then the money to be provided to HAL to build Ka-226s can be used to build a second production line for the LUH right from the start.

I like this suggestion. Don't pay for ToT that we don't need. 60 fast and easy Ka-226s from Russia. If 111 NUH is to be fulfilled by the Ka-226s, identify a private partner. Ka-226s and LUH should be backups for each other.

Rishi_Tri · Post by **Rishi_Tri** » 14 Dec 2017 06:01

Every day that Ka 226 deal gets delayed, less likely that it shall happen. Private sector line in addition to HAL line shall take care of numbers. Of course HAL benefits more if Ka 226 gets go ahead as it is the likely partner.

Getting MI 17s in place of Ka 226 practical idea and should also take care of any promises made by Modi, Putin to each other.

After having seen LUH fly over my humble abode during AI'17, cannot get to bring myself to see another bird coming home to roost.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 14 Dec 2017 07:42

Whattay fantastic article: Mi-8
http://kaypius.com/2017/12/13/a-naval-a ... -the-mi-8/

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 14 Dec 2017 08:07

Thanks Shiv ji

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 14 Dec 2017 08:56

Aerospace industry eyes business worth Rs 12,500 crore
http://ajaishukla.blogspot.ca/2017/12/a ... worth.html

On Tuesday, Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) offered the aerospace vendors that feed its aircraft assembly lines a tantalising glimpse of major business opportunities ahead, adding up to some Rs 12,500 crore. HAL’s chairman, T Suvarna Raju, told a gathering of the company’s vendors in Bengaluru that they would soon participate in building 100 trainer aircraft – the indigenously designed Hindustan Turbo Trainer–40 (HTT-40). In addition, the Light Utility Helicopter (LUH), of which the Indian Air Force is committed to buying 187 pieces, is nearing certification. “Given our large number of platforms with the Indian defence forces, we remain committed to increase the scope of work to our vendors to ensure success of our programs. HAL is looking to produce 100 basic trainer aircraft HTT-40 soon, once spin tests are completed in the coming months. In the rotary wing segment, our efforts are on to achieve basic certification of LUH by the middle of 2018”, said Raju.

In 2013, then IAF chief, Air Chief Marshal NAK Browne wrote to the defence minister stating that the HTT-40 would cost Rs 59.31 crore in 2018, and escalate by 2020 to Rs 64.77 crore. That letter was intended to scuttle the HTT-40 project as too expensive, and make a case for importing more Pilatus PC-7 Mark II trainers from Switzerland. Now, however, it has emerged that HAL will build the HTT-40 for an affordable Rs 45 crore apiece. With the defence ministry having already approved the procurement of 106 indigenous trainers for the IAF, this would translate into business worth about Rs 5,000 crore for the aerospace sector. HAL has managed to develop the indigenous trainer for a frugal Rs 450 crore, employing internal company funds, Raju told Business Standard in July. An additional Rs 120 crore will go on establishing the HTT-40 manufacturing line. Separately, the manufacture of 187 LUHs, each costing an estimated Rs 40 crore according to internal HAL estimations, will generate business worth Rs 7,500 crore for the aerospace industry.

HAL says indigenisation levels in these platforms would be as high as 80 per cent, given that many imported components, sub-systems and systems would be progressively manufactured in India under transfer of technology. That means Rs 2,500 crore would flow abroad to global original equipment manufacturers (OEMs). Even so, Indian aerospace vendors, for the most part micro, small and medium enterprises (MSMEs) that depend almost entirely on government orders, see the remaining Rs 10,000 crore as a significant opportunity. Business is also expected to flow from a separate acquisition of 197 Kamov-226T light helicopters, which Russian helicopter manufacturer, Kamov, will initially supply ready-built, and then transfer technology to progressively manufacture in HAL.

In manufacturing aircraft like the Jaguar, Sukhoi-30MKI and the Hawk trainer, HAL had monopolised most of the manufacturing work, relying on very little outsourcing. More recently, the manufacture of the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) has seen HAL assume the role of “systems integrator”, with a significant percentage of the supply chain outsourced to private aerospace industry. In the future, HAL envisages functioning exclusively as a systems integrator, with a private industry supply chain feeding in components, sub-systems, systems and even major assemblies like the forward, middle and rear fuselage.

AdityaM · Post by **AdityaM** » 14 Dec 2017 11:55

haven't seen any news on LCH progress in a long time.

Googled and came across this article with many pics
http://www.financialexpress.com/photos/ ... rmy-iaf/9/

But only 15 on order. All that R&D for just 15

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 14 Dec 2017 12:05

Indy,the req is for 400+ Rakesh's post illustrates just that.Speed of induction is the essence of the hour. The quickest LUH that can be built rapidly is the KA-226,in production. Once the HAL LUH has finished trials and the new plant /facility set up,perhaps alternatively at the very same plant building the KA-226 at Tumkur,saving money,It can first in parallel and later on be built singly as orders are completed for Kamovs.

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 14 Dec 2017 12:40

AdityaM wrote:haven't seen any news on LCH progress in a long time.

Googled and came across this article with many pics
http://www.financialexpress.com/photos/ ... rmy-iaf/9/

But only 15 on order. All that R&D for just 15

People, the order is not for 15 but the currently signed contract is for 15. The IA will buy more and some will go to IAF though I am not sure IAF has announced its decision. The MoD will only sign the contract with HAL later.

It is how the process is structured. Don't unnecessarily jump to conclusions.

LCH as an aircraft is not under threat or facing any competition from foreign OEM. This extract from wiki:

During November 2016, the Indian Ministry of Defense (MoD) authorised the purchase of an initial batch of 16 LCHs for the Indian Air Force (IAF) and the Indian Army Air Corps (AAC), referred to as being a limited series production order. By mid-2017, the AAC had placed combined orders for 114 LCHs, while the IAF had a total of 65 LCHs on order. This has not resulted in a signed contract yet. During early 2017, it was reported that the LCH's initial operating capability (IOC) with the Indian armed forces was expected to occur by 2018. The AAC intended to deploy the indigenous LCH alongside the American-built Boeing AH-64 Apache attack helicopter.

Achieving export sales for the LCH has been a stated priority of both HAL and the Indian government. During mid-2016, a spokesperson for the Indian Defence Ministry stated the ministry was in the progress of holding discussions with several unidentified African nations on the topic of the LCH.

My comments in blue.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 14 Dec 2017 13:05

That's a huge order.Wonder why it hasn't been sealed. Is it an infrastructural problem? Hal has a massive order book for its helo division,the most successful in terms of indigenous development. Can the exg. BLore division manage to produce the LCH as well as ALHs,etc.,as we know that for the LUH a new facility is being set up at Tumkur.

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 14 Dec 2017 13:14

Philip wrote:That's a huge order.Wonder why it hasn't been sealed. Is it an infrastructural problem? Hal has a massive order book for its helo division,the most successful in terms of indigenous development. Can the exg. BLore division manage to produce the LCH as well as ALHs,etc.,as we know that for the LUH a new facility is being set up at Tumkur.

No, this is not an infrastructure issue at all. The procurement process is like so. LSPs will be ordered at some milestones, production orders later. Services have to forward their requirements well in advance. Manufacturer has to plan as per the intent but funds are released as per the contract.

Trikaal · Post by **Trikaal** » 16 Dec 2017 11:12

Can someone confirm for me the unit price of Ka226T?
Last i remember it was around Rs 70 crore.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 16 Dec 2017 13:58

ToT has typically jacked up the price by atleast two times. The Kamov deal is no different.

Russian Kamov helicopters' 'Make in India' price 2.5 times more that original cost

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 16 Dec 2017 14:53

Indranil wrote:ToT has typically jacked up the price by atleast two times. The Kamov deal is no different.

Russian Kamov helicopters' 'Make in India' price 2.5 times more that original cost

Maybe true. May not be true. Remember - we get very upset at news reports that do not agree with our viewpoint. And those that do are easier to believe. But they remain reports in an industry that is full of smoke, mirrors, sabotage and subterfuge

mody · Post by **mody** » 16 Dec 2017 15:43

mody wrote:For Ka-226, we should just execute the first part of the order, i.e. buy 60 outright from Russia, with an option for an additional 30.
LUH can fulfill the balance requirement of 300-350 helicopters.

Kamov and HAL should form a joint venture for replacement of Ka-27/28/31 family of naval helis. We have a requirement of more then 120 of these and I am sure Russia can use a replacement for these over the next 10-15 years as well. All the sensors and weapons should be topnotch, with no water down export version for anti-sub sensors.

I gave the above suggestion in October. Still remains the best way forward for the LUH vs Ka226T debate.

Sign the contract for 60 helicopters before March 2018, with a delivery clause of 36 months for all 60 birds, with an option for an additional 30 at the same price if required.

LUH will hopefully enter serial production by end of 2019 and will give us enough time to catch up.

chola · Post by **chola** » 16 Dec 2017 17:01

Indranil wrote:ToT has typically jacked up the price by atleast two times. The Kamov deal is no different.

Russian Kamov helicopters' 'Make in India' price 2.5 times more that original cost

This makes sense as it would involve infrastructure build out, transportation of parts and “TOT.” The extra cost would have value if it means that the “transferred” technology and associated infrastructure are ours and we can do what we want with the KA226 beyond the production run.

If not, then it is nothing more than subcontracting work where we pay the firangi double to send some jobs over here. In essense, we are paying our workers ourselves but feel better about it by calling them offsets.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 16 Dec 2017 19:54

shiv wrote:
Indranil wrote:ToT has typically jacked up the price by atleast two times. The Kamov deal is no different.

Russian Kamov helicopters' 'Make in India' price 2.5 times more that original cost
Maybe true. May not be true. Remember - we get very upset at news reports that do not agree with our viewpoint. And those that do are easier to believe. But they remain reports in an industry that is full of smoke, mirrors, sabotage and subterfuge

I completely agree with you on this basic human tendency to find conformational bias.

But there are two things that provide credence to this report.

1. The reporter in question
2. Every other ToT project has roughly the same margin. The offset projects have a slightly lower margin, but they blow up the costs too.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 17 Dec 2017 06:13

Indranil, The reporter adds cost of if factory to the deal. Bogus accounting to push for plain import.
By how method neither offset nor Transfer of Technology.

However, senior ministry officials said Make in India comes at a heavy cost as investments have to be made to create a new facility and manpower has to be trained along with acquisition of land for the new set up.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 17 Dec 2017 06:42

I think the Ka-226 will come. We will know how much they would cost. We should start a betting game. If x= 40 crores is the price of one LUH, and y= price of one Ka-226. How much is y/x?

My bet is between 1.7 and 2.5.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 17 Dec 2017 08:06

Indranil wrote:I think the Ka-226 will come. We will know how much they would cost. We should start a betting game. If x= 40 crores is the price of one LUH, and y= price of one Ka-226. How much is y/x?

My bet is between 1.7 and 2.5.

This is wrong. This sort of betting game is unnecessary on what is meant to be a thread about helicopters. Please start a poll in a separate thread

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 17 Dec 2017 10:15

I posted some time ago thd official cost of the deal for 200 helos.I think it was $1B for all 200 helos working out to $5 M per unit.That's around 35 crores max. not 70 cr.
That was to have included full details,drawings,etc.so that local component manufacture would increase incrementally.I also remember something about a local O&M centre being set up here to support the same.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 17 Dec 2017 10:57

shiv wrote:
Indranil wrote:I think the Ka-226 will come. We will know how much they would cost. We should start a betting game. If x= 40 crores is the price of one LUH, and y= price of one Ka-226. How much is y/x?

My bet is between 1.7 and 2.5.
This is wrong. This sort of betting game is unnecessary on what is meant to be a thread about helicopters. Please start a poll in a separate thread

There is nothing wrong with what IR said. That post will stay where it is and as it is.

Trikaal · Post by **Trikaal** » 17 Dec 2017 12:01

Google gives Ka226 cost as 35 crore. If ToT increases cost 2 times, then each helo could potentially cost 70 crore which is outrageous. At such prices, i feel that if we are hell bent on Kamov, then we might as well import it directly without ToT and invest the saved money on local programmes.

Benefits of ToT remain doubtful anyway. Case in point, Su30 ToT. I dont know if ToT on Su30 helped the LCA or will help the AMCA programme in any way.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 17 Dec 2017 12:24

It includes factory and manpower training. So take it with a bucket of salt.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 17 Dec 2017 12:45

Just ck CNS's statement requiring " 500 " aircraft and helos by 2030..

"2X" cost per unit for infrastructure appears ridiculous!-
I doubt a "2X" request/claim has been made.The deal was for $1B altogether!

Trikaal · Post by **Trikaal** » 17 Dec 2017 20:49

Philip Sir, it appears unreasonable to expect the helo at the market price. If Russia is transferring any technology, they will definitely increase the cost. So expecting to get 200 kamov at $1 billion is a pipe dream. Be prepared to read an article of cost escalation due to delay in procurement.

The question is, will the ToT we get, justify the cost escalation? I don't see any HAL plans of building indigenous coaxial rotor helis. Dunno what kind of technologies we can expect to be transferred and how useful they will be.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 17 Dec 2017 23:53

https://twitter.com/writetake/status/942372384585105409

https://twitter.com/writetake/status/942370275311489026

https://twitter.com/writetake/status/942368558348058624

https://twitter.com/writetake/status/942357582886211586

https://twitter.com/writetake/status/942349649913962496

https://twitter.com/writetake/status/942348340187951104

https://twitter.com/writetake/status/942346848605388801

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 18 Dec 2017 00:09

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 18 Dec 2017 03:36

Looking at the IT report on the escalation, I have a simple solution.First 200 at earlier agreed upon prices, in the stages spelt out,then TOT escalated prices ONLY for the rest built with desi material as with the MKIs.By that time the HAL LUH would've arrived and we would've got our 200 at the initially agreed upon price, cost of spares, support, etc. fixed. Kamov would have no alternative but to keep prices low or else....The LUH will be the only one acquired thereafter! Fait accompli what?

This is a simple bird, no great sheikh tech that we can't master unlike the MI-17V .Engines are French too and we've not had any major acquisition problem ever with French engines for our helos. Look at how China has mastered the tech of many firang eqpt. acquired and progressed further.Can we say that we are inferior to the Chins?

What beggars one beyond belief is the drafting of the agreement.Surely the MOD knew about TOT initially? How could it have been left out? If you examine all the deals which have controversies, one will find that the MOD left glaring loopholes and clauses that were exploited by the OEM.No wonder NS's latest remarks about the MOD, cutting fat etc.Look at the Scorpene deal.Acquisition of key items left out leading to huge delays, huge extra costs,12 years to build a sub during which time China built 40+!

Something is rotten in the State of the MOD.The final agreements drafted must be vetted by the services too regarding issues of procurement, TOT, O&M and setting up of Desi located service centres with a min.of spares, etc. for 5 years.Penalties for lower than specified performance,delivery, etc.We reportedly enforced a $40M fine for some eqpt. delays with a Talwar first batch. We can't have loopholes for future extortion by any OEM whether it is from the east or west.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 18 Dec 2017 04:56

There are technologies that make sense to acquire. This is pure appeasement. At the most we may need help with 20 odd birds to replace cheetahs and chetaks that have become un-serviceable and a hazard. It makes more sense to do a wet lease for 20-40 birds for 5 years till the LUH start arriving in numbers. The price of usage won't exceed 50 million at most for 5 years.

IMO If we have to build a kamov based unit, even the Ka-28/29/31 re-certified with french engines, with modernized avionics and a french thales dunking sonar suite makes far more sense than these birds. The IMRH will take time to come and then it will go through its paces for IAF/IA before HAL is able to meet the naval requirement. The naval requirement is unmet at the moment and will be for the next decade or so. This will fulfil any obligations and keep all quarters happy.

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 18 Dec 2017 10:04

Rakesh wrote:Photos of Mi-8 retirement ceremony at Yelahanka AFS. When you click on the link, please make sure to click again on the picture for a larger sized version. The link is just a large thumbnail.
...

Admiral, thank you for the wonderful effort of recording the tributes to Mi 8. I have special memories of both the Mi 8 and 112 HU. Good to see the photos. Coincidentally, the CO today is a coursemate. Hope the new machines work out just as well as the older Mi 8s. 112 HU, Thoroughbreds is where all of IAF's twin engine helicopter pilots are trained initially.

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 18 Dec 2017 10:36

deejay wrote:
Rakesh wrote:Photos of Mi-8 retirement ceremony at Yelahanka AFS. When you click on the link, please make sure to click again on the picture for a larger sized version. The link is just a large thumbnail.
...
Admiral, thank you for the wonderful effort of recording the tributes to Mi 8. I have special memories of both the Mi 8 and 112 HU. Good to see the photos. Coincidentally, the CO today is a coursemate. Hope the new machines work out just as well as the older Mi 8s. 112 HU, Thoroughbreds is where all of IAF's twin engine helicopter pilots are trained initially.

deejay Sir - ex - NDA?

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 18 Dec 2017 10:38

^Yes.

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 18 Dec 2017 11:03

deejay wrote:^Yes.

squadron Sir?