Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

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tsarkar
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Post by tsarkar »

Karan M wrote:I wont even put up the specific redacted images from the data leak. It will give everyone severe depression and anger issues. Its a data breach of completely bizarre proportions. Radiated noise at specific speeds, detailed technical manuals of each and every weapons sensor system, list goes on and on and on.
This is a industry wide epidemic, even in the civil world.

In Indian & Global Technology Industry, an OEM & SI will build an ERP system for a manufacturing concern or payment hub for a bank, and these are covered under stringent NDA's, but the software developer will put the highly confidential solution architecture on his CV and share it with head hunters / job agencies / LinkedIn. Needless to say, solution architectures out in the open exposes the manufacturing concern/bank to hacking/ransonware.

Also, in civil or military world, the Designer/Manufacturer takes his latest development (ERP system/Scorpene/Su-30MKX) to his next prospective customer despite NDA/Confidentiality Clauses with the previous customer.

NDA/Confidentiality Clauses are flouted by Corporations claiming to be India's/World's most ethical company, etc.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Post by vasu raya »

The silver lining is MDL builds them, so they have an idea about any equipment that could be replaced
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Post by John »

srai wrote:^^^
It got released by a reporter and became known worldwide even to the general public. Otherwise all these info would be in the secret hands of American, European and their close allies. Time to stop importing.

I remember reading a story long time ago about how the British got the French to reveal information on how to counter the Exocet during the Falklands War. All hush-hush of course.

It's basically an open secret. If you import, then don't fight that country and its allies. They will know classified specs. You won't win using those imported weaponary.
What is most puzzling is we had access to U-209 blue print (which is considered one of best post cold war diesel submarine designs) and could have continued building it and improving on it.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Post by Philip »

Sub tech is the most difficult to master.We are being assisted principally by Russia , but have a long way to go having built only "4" conv. boats thus far.I
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Post by dinesh_kimar »

What is most puzzling is we had access to U-209 blue print (which is considered one of best post cold war diesel submarine designs) and could have continued building it and improving on it.
I read somewhere that the front hull shape / dynamics is patented by HDW and we cant copy it.

The Germans apparently trained us well, and we had good know-how in basic design of hull (lt., beam, calculations, etc.) and also welding, inspection and QA (dunno wat it means in this case), trim calculations, battery tech , sea testing, maintenance and overhaul. Ulrich Gabler personally trained the Submarine Design Group.

But no voice in India was heard demanding the following:

1. We will carefully preserve and continue the hard won know-how from Germany .
2. We will build 3 more local follow on subs with knowledge received, with a slightly different hull form designed by our people in NSTL, which wont get us in trouble legally.
3. Engines will be from Kirloskar (license MAN). Battery from Exide (lic. Varta) , prop shaft and block from HEC, Ranchi. it will not be perfect but we will use it. We understand that it will be noiser than the Type 209, and quieter than the Foxtrot flogged till 2006. This is a very acceptable trade off for us. We also understand that as our people get more sophisticated, the next iteration of submarines will be equivalent to Type-209.
4. Motors, control valves castings and forgings will be from local industry (some Mumbai based MSMEs are very good with this stuff). Rubber anechoic tiles from MRF, periscope from DRDO-IRST, welding tech from ISRO - CMTI.
5. Hatches and bulkheads will be from Flash Forge, Vishakapatnam.
6. Sonar and CMS will be from BEL, Bangalore.
7. Torpedo will be from BDL, Vishakapatnam, a localised Russian TEST 65 with NATO dimensions and imported electronics.
8. We will have a continuous improvement program, where the designers will document improvements to be piped in for the next batch of vessels.
9. BHEL will source a casting for the propeller, and machine it to spec.

If someone had said something like the above, we would have had 75 % localised submarines, worst case !.

[The next iteration would have brought us close to 90 % +. ]

Wat actually happened was MDL master welders resigned and went to Gulf, to weld the oil pipelines and make good money.

Even now, seeing the Scorpene mishandling by MDL (MDL "procured" items to show phony indigenisation, for eg., and long delays in submarine commissioning, when using the latest concurrent engineering technology to save lead time), I have little faith in anyone achieving the same level of competence as in Type-209.

S. Korea took the same approach and succeeded with Chango-Bongo (whatever !), their version of Type-209.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Post by Singha »

dharmic thoughts saar, but the HDW scam was deftly engineered to make sure those thoughts were stillborn or murdered at infant stage
holier than VP Singhji was using such scams as a stick to bring down the former yuvaraj

just as the follow on of local bofors gun production was murdered...until dhanush rose like a phoenix from ashes.

anything that gives India real teeth vs adversaries is sought to be capped and rolled back. its easy to play off one formation against another in delhi, using the media for deft snipering and the howling ignorant mobs for the outrage
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Post by chola »

S. Korea took the same approach and succeeded with Chango-Bongo (whatever !), their version of Type-209.
It really is named the Chango Bongo. But the numbers planned are huge! Eighteen for SoKo and another three for the Indonesian Navy. (The SoKorean MIC has literally exploded on the world’s export scene in the past few years with ships and planes sold everywhere.)

Now what are chances of us ever selling the Tiger Shark (Kalvari)?
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Post by Rakesh »

dinesh_kimar wrote:Ulrich Gabler personally trained the Submarine Design Group.
For folks who are wondering who Ulrich Gabler is --> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulrich_Gabler
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Post by Rakesh »

INS Kulish joins ANC
http://echoofindia.com/port-blair-ins-k ... anc-136624

INS Kulish, a Kora Class missile corvette with an array of missiles and guns has joined the Naval Component of the Andaman and Nicobar Command. The Ship was traditionally welcomed into the Andaman and Nicobar Flotilla on Wednesday at the Naval Jetty. INS Kulish is the third of the Kora Class missile corvettes which was indigenously manufactured by Garden Reach shipbuilding and Engineering, Kolkata and commissioned into the Indian Navy on 20th August, 2001. The ship has an endurance of over 4000 NM, and is also equipped with state-of-the- art air surveillance and surface radar, an electronic warfare suite and chaff system. The inclusion of the ship in Andaman and Nicobar Command fleet is a force multiplier and has added potency to the War Fighting ability of the fleet.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Post by srin »

dinesh_kimar wrote:
What is most puzzling is we had access to U-209 blue print (which is considered one of best post cold war diesel submarine designs) and could have continued building it and improving on it.
I read somewhere that the front hull shape / dynamics is patented by HDW and we cant copy it.
Patents expire in 20 years, so if we really have the blueprints we can start building our own.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Post by srin »

^^ Btw, even for Scorpenes, now is the time to build our local copies - before MDL starts to lose its expertise.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Post by yensoy »

Singha wrote:main difference is a sub launched one will be awash in sea water and be rigged to quietly swim out on own power (low setting) than be shot out by a capsule of compressed air like old U-boats and ship launched HWT.
diameter and length will be same.
not a big change imo but some testing is certainly necessary. maybe new electrical interface to hook into the submarine FCS.
its storage, handling and repair in the torpedo room mechanized racks also needs certification.
As per wiki it is wire guided. I assume the ship launched version won't be wire guided but the sub will, so there is that difference too and IMHO it is a pretty big difference.
srin wrote:
dinesh_kimar wrote:
I read somewhere that the front hull shape / dynamics is patented by HDW and we cant copy it.
Patents expire in 20 years, so if we really have the blueprints we can start building our own.
I doubt it's the patent which is blocking it. There may be something in the contract which prevents us from copying the cross-section, for ever. And we need to play nice in order to maintain a relationship for spares & refits.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Post by Singha »

why is the ship launched torp not wire guided ? any refs?

I know in WW2 they were free running, but with the range of a HWT, wont the ship want to provide mid course updated to the torp?

wiki mentions wire guidance for varunastra
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Post by Philip »

I have Gabler's book on sub design.Our 209s were unique in having his escape module, not fitted to std.U-boats.
Yes, we could've restarted building U-boats but the court clearance that there was no evidence of any kickbacks, came after the Scorpene deal.In the intervening years we sold at scrap value the entire machinery.Our submarines and those involved in building our 2 U- boats wept.
Last edited by Philip on 23 Dec 2017 05:20, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Post by krishna_krishna »

^^ I can tell you not all was lost, that team had big role to play in arihant and its sister class build
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Post by Philip »

Heartening to know that all was not lost. One knows that V.Adm."Mickey" Roy and others were heading the programme and involved, but not much about those at the technical/ builder level.Not too long ago had dinner with one previously in the loop , can't comment.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Post by Singha »

Even the yasen and perhaps borei too has escape pod. Imo it should be mandatory in all our future subs because unless its easily reachable shallow areas i rate the chances of dsrv rescue as very low
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Post by yensoy »

Singha wrote:why is the ship launched torp not wire guided ? any refs?

I know in WW2 they were free running, but with the range of a HWT, wont the ship want to provide mid course updated to the torp?

wiki mentions wire guidance for varunastra
It's just my guess. I can't imagine how the wire will not snap when the torpedo is blasted out of its canister. Also why would you need wire guidance when there is much reduced stealth requirement for surface vessels (as compared with submarines which basically have to go silent)?
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Post by deWalker »

yensoy wrote:
Singha wrote:main difference is a sub launched one will be awash in sea water and be rigged to quietly swim out on own power (low setting) than be shot out by a capsule of compressed air like old U-boats and ship launched HWT.
diameter and length will be same.
not a big change imo but some testing is certainly necessary. maybe new electrical interface to hook into the submarine FCS.
its storage, handling and repair in the torpedo room mechanized racks also needs certification.
As per wiki it is wire guided. I assume the ship launched version won't be wire guided but the sub will, so there is that difference too and IMHO it is a pretty big difference.
srin wrote:
Patents expire in 20 years, so if we really have the blueprints we can start building our own.
I doubt it's the patent which is blocking it. There may be something in the contract which prevents us from copying the cross-section, for ever. And we need to play nice in order to maintain a relationship for spares & refits.
I'm not sure how patents matter - they only come into play in export markets and the like. All is fair in love and war. The Yanks didn't sue the Russkies for Amraamski!

Diwakar
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Post by Philip »

The Chakra has its pod.All Ru N-subs have their pods.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Post by Austin »

Slow Overseas Equipment Supply Causes Delay in India’s Destroyer Project

https://sputniknews.com/military/201712 ... n-project/
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Post by Karthik S »

Austin wrote:Slow Overseas Equipment Supply Causes Delay in India’s Destroyer Project

https://sputniknews.com/military/201712 ... n-project/

Wonderful, 3 year delay now with vizag said to be ready only by 2021 and we want to gear up against China.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Post by kit »

Singha wrote:I have a strong feeling every french system is compromised to cheen either direct or via moles in australia or arab nations
i would say most foreign systems (including American ) can be compromised via their second or third tier suppliers ... only indigenous stuff are proof to some extent .
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Post by kit »

deWalker wrote:
yensoy wrote:
As per wiki it is wire guided. I assume the ship launched version won't be wire guided but the sub will, so there is that difference too and IMHO it is a pretty big difference.



I doubt it's the patent which is blocking it. There may be something in the contract which prevents us from copying the cross-section, for ever. And we need to play nice in order to maintain a relationship for spares & refits.
I'm not sure how patents matter - they only come into play in export markets and the like. All is fair in love and war. The Yanks didn't sue the Russkies for Amraamski!

Diwakar
the yanks reportedly wants India to enter into a "intellectual property" protection agreement before any "tech" transfers .. so keep buying no copies. The China scare will keep India buying and buying enriching them while Russia will play China and India.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Post by Philip »

Bad news.There really should be no problem with the engines from the UKR or shafts from Ru as we have close traditionally relations with both.But only 32 SAM's on a DDG?! This is wholly inadequate.Incoming salvos will be in larger number.Attacks from 3-4 missile craft could overwhelm a DDGs defences.The DDGs require at least 48 LR Sam's,plus the shorter ranged BPDMS systems to throw as much metal at the missiles if they have avoided the B-8s.Right now there is no tiered missile defence, a grave defect.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Post by nachiket »

Philip wrote:Bad news.There really should be no problem with the engines from the UKR or shafts from Ru as we have close traditionally relations with both.
Clearly there is. Not surprising considering the problems in Ukraine.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Post by Thakur_B »

There should be no problem with engines from UKR or shafts from Ru as we have close traditionally relations with both. Must be the fault of the bleddy injuns. /s
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Post by deWalker »

kit wrote:
the yanks reportedly wants India to enter into a "intellectual property" protection agreement before any "tech" transfers .. so keep buying no copies. The China scare will keep India buying and buying enriching them while Russia will play China and India.
Thanks Kit. Do you have a link for that demand? I can see how it applies when key IP is shared, not just OEM products. Even so, needn’t apply to HDW and the French.

Diwakar
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Post by Philip »

The UK parliamentary committee on defence has found that the JSFs on order will actually cost them $200M a pop.In addition to fully utilise the carrier's capabilities a lot of software connectivity is further reqd. plus they also want connectivity with their Typhoons.ALIS has its glitches too.The eventual order for F-35Bs is likely to be cut as a consequence.They now feel a reg. Cat version would've been a better option.What they discarded in favour of the STOVL variant!
Something for the IN to chew upon for IAC-2.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Post by brar_w »

Philip wrote:The UK parliamentary committee on defence has found that the JSFs on order will actually cost them $200M a pop.In addition to fully utilise the carrier's capabilities a lot of software connectivity is further reqd. plus they also want connectivity with their Typhoons.ALIS has its glitches too.The eventual order for F-35Bs is likely to be cut as a consequence.They now feel a reg. Cat version would've been a better option.What they discarded in favour of the STOVL variant!
Something for the IN to chew upon for IAC-2.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5098&p=2239671#p2239671
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Post by kit »

deWalker wrote:
kit wrote:
the yanks reportedly wants India to enter into a "intellectual property" protection agreement before any "tech" transfers .. so keep buying no copies. The China scare will keep India buying and buying enriching them while Russia will play China and India.
Thanks Kit. Do you have a link for that demand? I can see how it applies when key IP is shared, not just OEM products. Even so, needn’t apply to HDW and the French.

Diwakar

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 008166.cms
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Post by Philip »

Who will want Indian built Scorpenes , performance specs woefully compromised , non AIP, at costs twice as much as a late model Russian Kilo, which is also built twice as fast and far costlier than its German rivals as well ? Can we guarantee the same quality standards without French help too, for which they will charge us an arm and a leg?

Forget the Scorpene, it is "passe" to use a French word and after the leaks and only a navy with a death wish would want to buy or build more.The Germans and possibly Swedes , sensing an opportunity, are racing ahead of the Western manufacturers.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Post by VinodTK »

Hyderabad picked for strategic location, defence units
Hyderabad: The Eastern Naval Command is said to have decided to set up a VLF (very low frequency) station spread over 2,900 acres at Pudur in Ranga Reddy district. The correspondence between the Centre and the state government to secure forest clearance had been going on since 2011. After raising several queries on deforestation and imposing compulsory afforestation norms, the Union ministry of environment and forests accorded the final approval for diversion of forest land on November 14.

A CMO official said, “The Eastern Naval Command is keen on setting up the VLF station on the city outskirts since it considers Hyderabad to be a strategic location for defence development and research. The city houses several defence units.” “At one stage during the Congress regime, the government expressed its inability to allot land identified by the Navy with the Centre refusing to give forest clearance. The TRS government revived the project and pursued it with the Centre,” he said. Chief Minister K. Chandrasekhar Rao thanked the Centre for approving the project and urged it to commence the work at the earliest.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Post by Philip »

Transplanting old trees even 80+ yrs old is being done in many places, road expansions,etc.Many years ago a major transplanting job was done at the Cochin naval base during expansions, saving almost all that were in the way.Some I think 100+ yrs old.For such a large site an ELF commn. system may be possible.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Post by arshyam »

So this is the second VLF facility after INS Kattabomman. Any news on the ELF facility? Last I heard, the AP/TS facility was going to use ELF (see this Hindu article). I was under the impression that Kattabomman had an ELF facility as well, but an essay in Chacko Joseph's book "Foxtrot to Arihant" (chapter Submarine Communcation, pg. 181), claimed that only a VLF facility was built since ELF required a very large antenna that was not found to be feasible. Even this ToI article from 2014 about the CNS inaugurating a new facility at INS Kattabomman makes no mention of ELF: Navy gets new facility to communicate with nuclear submarines prowling underwater.

Apparently, the US shut down its ELF facilities in 2004 as they moved back to VLF and sat comms (Wiki), leaving only Russia and us (?) with such facilities.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Post by deWalker »

Thanks for supporting my laziness, kit :) . The request from the US makes sense, as they are apparently opening the kimono and sharing IP. My earlier comment was that when we buy OEM equipment, there is no IP / patent obligation to folllow - in the context of HDW, Scorpene etc.

Cheers

Diwakar
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Post by jaysimha »

REQUEST FOR INFORMATION (RFI) FOR ‘INTEGRATED COMBAT SYSTEM SIMULATOR FOR P-75 (SCORPENE)
SUBMARINES OF THE INDIAN NAVY

https://www.indiannavy.nic.in/sites/def ... p%2017.pdf
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Post by Philip »

So late in the day for an RFI for a Scorp. simulator? One would've imagined that it would've been part of the original contract.
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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Post by jaysimha »

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Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

Post by srai »

Philip wrote:So late in the day for an RFI for a Scorp. simulator? One would've imagined that it would've been part of the original contract.
Staggered deals hide the true costs of an acquisition, IMO. Initial signatures are for something palatable and then subsequently bunch of additional deals are signed. Look at all the Russian deals, like T-90 etc. Most people only remember the original (but incomplete) costs.
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