Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

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Thakur_B
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by Thakur_B »

Singha wrote:plenty of room to mount a giant aperture antenna and hordes of onboard controllers.
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-fryX9ODXo-s/U ... utaway.jpg
Plenty of room to mount even a small supercomputer.
Rakesh
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

Aerial Refuelling of Airborne Early Warning and Control Aircraft
https://idsa.in/idsacomments/aerial-ref ... era_061217

By Group Captain Kishore Kumar Khera, VM
Research Fellow, IDSA
Email: kkkhera.idsa@gov.in

Group Captain Kishore Kumar Khera, VM joined IDSA as Research Fellow in February 2017. He is a serving fighter pilot of the Indian Air Force with 31 years of operational service. He is alumnus of the National Defence Academy and Defence Services Staff College. He has served in Plans and Operational Branches at Air Headquarters as well as in the High Commission of India, Dhaka, Bangladesh. He is a pioneer member of the Composite Battle Response and Analysis (COBRA) Group and headed the Operational Planning and Assessment Group at Air Headquarters. He conceptualised, designed and deployed multiple tools and processes for efficient and effective operational planning and execution.
ArjunPandit
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by ArjunPandit »

Aerial refuelling helps fighter/bomber aircraft to stay in combat for a longer duration or reach targets farther than their inbuilt fuel capacity permits. It also enables them to carry more weapon load and less fuel to stay within the safe operational limits especially at high and hot airfields.
Shiv saar, does this impact your observations in the video regarding chinese air fields?
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

India hopes to sort out stuck AWACS deal during Israeli PM's upcoming visit
https://sputniknews.com/military/201712 ... al-israel/

27 Dec 2017

The price hike has been a major concern for India. But the Airborne Early Warning and Control System (AWACS), dubbed the “Eyes in the Sky,” is one of the most urgent requirements of the Indian Air Force. The system comprises Russian Ilyushin-76 aircraft equipped with sophisticated Israel-made radars.

New Delhi (Sputnik) — The 15th round of foreign office consultations between India and Israel in New Delhi has set the tone for Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s upcoming India visit starting January 13. The consultations were led by Vijay Gokhle, the secretary of economic relations of the government of India and Yuval Rotem, the director general of the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs. The entire gamut of bilateral relations was discussed, but the primary agenda was India’s planned procurement of two new Airborne Early Warning and Control System (AWACS) that comprises Russian Ilyushin-76 aircraft equipped with sophisticated Israel-made radars. In the previous tripartite deal signed in 2003-04, India had acquired three AWACS systems in which Russian Ilyushin-76 aircraft were equipped with sophisticated Israel-made radars at the cost of $1.1 billion. However, while negotiating a follow-on deal, the vendors quoted more than $1.25 billion for each AWACS, resulting in the deal being held up for over a year now. Experts say that India would have to weigh in the “necessity” factor over the cost factor. "AWACS is in fact a priority for India. AWACS is a huge force multiplier, allows more efficient use of airpower and gives early warning. Given other handicaps of the Indian Air Force, this mitigates them a bit. Well, it's a tripartite deal with Russia providing the planes and Israel mounting the radar. The price hike has been a major issue but India needs the AWACS system to upgrade its air power. See how Modi went after Rafale," Jaideep A Prabhu, a strategic expert, told Sputnik. The AWACS have a range of 400 km and 360 degree sweep coverage, which allows them to detect airborne aircraft, cruise missiles and drones much sooner than ground-based radar can.
Bart S
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by Bart S »

Is there any reason why we need to be wedded to the Russian refurbished platforms for new AWACS requirements? It is going to have a significant lead time anyway, so why not just work on getting our long term platform (A330 or something similar) ready? At least the money will be well spent.
chola
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by chola »

Bart S wrote:Is there any reason why we need to be wedded to the Russian refurbished platforms for new AWACS requirements? It is going to have a significant lead time anyway, so why not just work on getting our long term platform (A330 or something similar) ready? At least the money will be well spent.

We are not. We have a 240 degree coverage balance beam Netra on an Embraer ERJ 145 and a future full 360 degree coverage project on the A330.

The Il-76 is the planned platform for our Phalcon design onlee. Yes, you are right our problems in procuring that platform means we need to look elsewhere.

Your thoughts on the A330 are already reflected in the MOD’s decision to look at that plane.
Bart S
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by Bart S »

chola wrote:
Bart S wrote:Is there any reason why we need to be wedded to the Russian refurbished platforms for new AWACS requirements? It is going to have a significant lead time anyway, so why not just work on getting our long term platform (A330 or something similar) ready? At least the money will be well spent.

We are not. We have a 240 degree coverage balance beam Netra on an Embraer ERJ 145 and a future full 360 degree coverage project on the A330.

The Il-76 is the planned platform for our Phalcon design onlee. Yes, you are right our problems in procuring that platform means we need to look elsewhere.

Your thoughts on the A330 are already reflected in the MOD’s decision to look at that plane.
Agreed, but my point was why even bother with the Russian platform for the Phalcon - just work with Airbus and IAI on getting the A330 ready, its an investment that we can re-use for our in-house AWACS.
Karan M
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by Karan M »

^^ The IAI guys will ask a significant amount to recertify the Phalcon mission suite for the A330.
The 2 Phalcons i suspect are being processed as a follow on order for the original 3. A new A330 wont be a follow on order, which means the whole DPP rigmarole will start all over again, with another 2-3 years lost in paperwork + IAI work.
Karan M
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by Karan M »

The aim was to just get 2 Phalcons quickly. Typically three are required for coverage, one in transit, one in maintenance, one on coverage. However, with 5 we can hope for quasi coverage of 2 sectors by locating the Phalcons nearby, provisioning extra crew for maintenance etc. 3 AEW&C likewise.. A 8 AWACS fleet would be at least somewhat useful given PAF has similar numbers & PRC as well. In a two front scenario, these force multipliers will count. Hopefully we can drive some price down and get those 2 Phalcons fast.
chola
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by chola »

Bart S wrote:
chola wrote:
We are not. We have a 240 degree coverage balance beam Netra on an Embraer ERJ 145 and a future full 360 degree coverage project on the A330.

The Il-76 is the planned platform for our Phalcon design onlee. Yes, you are right our problems in procuring that platform means we need to look elsewhere.

Your thoughts on the A330 are already reflected in the MOD’s decision to look at that plane.
Agreed, but my point was why even bother with the Russian platform for the Phalcon - just work with Airbus and IAI on getting the A330 ready, its an investment that we can re-use for our in-house AWACS.
Our inhouse project might actually be moving the Phalcon or an indigenized version of the Phalcon to the A330. DRDO never built a full 360 degree AWACS. Where are we going to find the partners? It makes sense to go with the Israelis and their experience with Phalcon.
Thakur_B
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by Thakur_B »

^^ Chola ji, this is absurd. It's like saying sharma ji ka beta is just 9th pass and he should do joint study with someone because he has not appeared for 10th board ever.
chola
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by chola »

Thakur_B wrote:^^ Chola ji, this is absurd. It's like saying sharma ji ka beta is just 9th pass and he should do joint study with someone because he has not appeared for 10th board ever.
Who is Sharmaji ka beta here? DRDO? When has he passed his first board on AWACS? Maybe Sharma ji ka DRDO has cram classes in AWACS? I know of one tutor onlee on the subject in the neighborhood. He is jooish and his class is called Phalcon.
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by Mort Walker »

Karan M wrote:The aim was to just get 2 Phalcons quickly. Typically three are required for coverage, one in transit, one in maintenance, one on coverage. However, with 5 we can hope for quasi coverage of 2 sectors by locating the Phalcons nearby, provisioning extra crew for maintenance etc. 3 AEW&C likewise.. A 8 AWACS fleet would be at least somewhat useful given PAF has similar numbers & PRC as well. In a two front scenario, these force multipliers will count. Hopefully we can drive some price down and get those 2 Phalcons fast.
There are 3, correct?
The IAF has had the EL/W-2090 radar since mid 2009. At this point they know the capabilities and limitations, including getting properly trained crews for operations and maintenance. Any new EL/W-2090 radars on any platform can be quickly incorporated.
nachiket
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by nachiket »

chola wrote: Our inhouse project might actually be moving the Phalcon or an indigenized version of the Phalcon to the A330. DRDO never built a full 360 degree AWACS. Where are we going to find the partners? It makes sense to go with the Israelis and their experience with Phalcon.
DRDO had never built any kind of AWACS when they began the Netra project. They delivered it without any foreign partners. Doesn't mean there won't be challenges in making a Phalcon like 360 degree system, but have some faith at least where they have a good track record.
Indranil
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by Indranil »

They have been designing the chapati for at least the last 3-4 years. I think they have frozen the configuration to having four panels in the chapati. DRDO/LRDE has crossed the hump on compact radar design a few years back. Don't worry about that any more.

They are mostly resource/fund/intent constrained.
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by Karan M »

There is some hugely positive news on the AWACS front as well. Will keep it for later. ;)
Karan M
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by Karan M »

Mort Walker wrote:
Karan M wrote:The aim was to just get 2 Phalcons quickly. Typically three are required for coverage, one in transit, one in maintenance, one on coverage. However, with 5 we can hope for quasi coverage of 2 sectors by locating the Phalcons nearby, provisioning extra crew for maintenance etc. 3 AEW&C likewise.. A 8 AWACS fleet would be at least somewhat useful given PAF has similar numbers & PRC as well. In a two front scenario, these force multipliers will count. Hopefully we can drive some price down and get those 2 Phalcons fast.
There are 3, correct?
The IAF has had the EL/W-2090 radar since mid 2009. At this point they know the capabilities and limitations, including getting properly trained crews for operations and maintenance. Any new EL/W-2090 radars on any platform can be quickly incorporated.
Yes, 3 Phalcons and 3 AEW & CS birds - the last DRDO bird will also go to the IAF if I remember right.
ArjunPandit
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by ArjunPandit »

Newbie pooch: Why would we need a 360 degree coverage AWACS?
1. Operations over Sea?
2. To direct planes friendly planes available and direct them if needed or IFF?
I would think majority of our ops will be on western sector
Vivek K
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by Vivek K »

Karan M wrote:There is some hugely positive news on the AWACS front as well. Will keep it for later. ;)
That will give us indigestion! Have mercy and tell us what the news is please!
chola
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by chola »

nachiket wrote:
chola wrote: Our inhouse project might actually be moving the Phalcon or an indigenized version of the Phalcon to the A330. DRDO never built a full 360 degree AWACS. Where are we going to find the partners? It makes sense to go with the Israelis and their experience with Phalcon.
DRDO had never built any kind of AWACS when they began the Netra project. They delivered it without any foreign partners. Doesn't mean there won't be challenges in making a Phalcon like 360 degree system, but have some faith at least where they have a good track record.

You are right.

Karan, tell us!!!
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by shaun »

chola wrote:
nachiket wrote: DRDO had never built any kind of AWACS when they began the Netra project. They delivered it without any foreign partners. Doesn't mean there won't be challenges in making a Phalcon like 360 degree system, but have some faith at least where they have a good track record.

You are right.

Karan, tell us!!!
Some history for you guys http://iaf00.tripod.com/awacs.html

With successful Netra and having previous experience in fabricating rotating radome more complex than the technology that we have now for active phased array radars in which the direction of radar signals could be swivelled electronically , platform availability is the biggest roadblock.
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by ArjunPandit »

It has been close to 2 decades since this accident happened. While remembering this is fine, but can we move on. Chola do you hear about the WW2 pilots who died taking off from aircraft carriers these days?
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by andy B »

Karan M wrote:There is some hugely positive news on the AWACS front as well. Will keep it for later. ;)

Karan saar you are acutuely aware that this statement is a KLPD for jingos. Bliss to share. I also have a humble request if I may....I have been trying to understand where LRDE is headed in terms of TRM production are we researching GaNs as a future upgrade? I am assuming current TRMs are GaaS. Any input on radar dhaga is greatly appreciated assuming it can be shared openly as I am not finding great deal of information in this topic. Many thanks
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by srai »

nachiket wrote:
chola wrote: Our inhouse project might actually be moving the Phalcon or an indigenized version of the Phalcon to the A330. DRDO never built a full 360 degree AWACS. Where are we going to find the partners? It makes sense to go with the Israelis and their experience with Phalcon.
DRDO had never built any kind of AWACS when they began the Netra project. They delivered it without any foreign partners. Doesn't mean there won't be challenges in making a Phalcon like 360 degree system, but have some faith at least where they have a good track record.
This was the original DRDO AWACS/AEW&C effort.
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chola
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by chola »

ArjunPandit wrote:It has been close to 2 decades since this accident happened. While remembering this is fine, but can we move on. Chola do you hear about the WW2 pilots who died taking off from aircraft carriers these days?
Again, agree.

But the Avro incident is a cautionary tale that putting a large structure on top of aircraft is no easy business.
Thakur_B
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by Thakur_B »

^^ Avro awacs work was mostly in-house. The AWACS India project would have the aircraft OEM modifying the airframe, just like Embraer did for Netra.
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by Karan M »

andy B wrote:
Karan M wrote:There is some hugely positive news on the AWACS front as well. Will keep it for later. ;)

Karan saar you are acutuely aware that this statement is a KLPD for jingos. Bliss to share. I also have a humble request if I may....I have been trying to understand where LRDE is headed in terms of TRM production are we researching GaNs as a future upgrade? I am assuming current TRMs are GaaS. Any input on radar dhaga is greatly appreciated assuming it can be shared openly as I am not finding great deal of information in this topic. Many thanks
You nailed it. It is my belief :) that many of our future programs including the AWACS India program will use GaN TRM modules.
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by VKumar »

Karan M wrote:The aim was to just get 2 Phalcons quickly. Typically three are required for coverage, one in transit, one in maintenance, one on coverage. However, with 5 we can hope for quasi coverage of 2 sectors by locating the Phalcons nearby, provisioning extra crew for maintenance etc. 3 AEW&C likewise.. A 8 AWACS fleet would be at least somewhat useful given PAF has similar numbers & PRC as well. In a two front scenario, these force multipliers will count. Hopefully we can drive some price down and get those 2 Phalcons fast.
We should ideally have one AWACS type and one fueller for every squadron. Add one per year of each type. These are as necessary as fighters if we want high performance in battle.
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by Thakur_B »

Karan ji, didn't LRDE issue tenders for design of S, L and X band GaN TRRM circa 2013/14 for AWACS India project, right around the time they issued the layout for quad array dome ?
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by sum »

VKumar wrote:
Karan M wrote:The aim was to just get 2 Phalcons quickly. Typically three are required for coverage, one in transit, one in maintenance, one on coverage. However, with 5 we can hope for quasi coverage of 2 sectors by locating the Phalcons nearby, provisioning extra crew for maintenance etc. 3 AEW&C likewise.. A 8 AWACS fleet would be at least somewhat useful given PAF has similar numbers & PRC as well. In a two front scenario, these force multipliers will count. Hopefully we can drive some price down and get those 2 Phalcons fast.
We should ideally have one AWACS type and one fueller for every squadron. Add one per year of each type. These are as necessary as fighters if we want high performance in battle.
One AWACs and one refueller per squadron? :shock: :shock:
So 33 of each in service when we are pushing back on even 6 refuellers due to cost?
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by Karan M »

Thakur_B wrote:Karan ji, didn't LRDE issue tenders for design of S, L and X band GaN TRRM circa 2013/14 for AWACS India project, right around the time they issued the layout for quad array dome ?
Yes, and they have designs ready for L,S Bands. By the time of AWACS India, I expect further improvements in the design and localization.
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by Trikaal »

33 awacs(45 ideally) when even USAF has 32? Yeh thodaa zyada nhi ho gyaa?
Karan M
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by Karan M »

Guys - lets keep this discussion focused on the serious topics. There is no way we can afford or plan for 33 AWACS. Current plans are 5 Phalcon, 3 DRDO AEW&CS followed by 6 (2+4) DRDO AWACS India, totalling up to 14 AWACS across different platforms.
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by kit »

sum wrote:
VKumar wrote:
We should ideally have one AWACS type and one fueller for every squadron. Add one per year of each type. These are as necessary as fighters if we want high performance in battle.
One AWACs and one refueller per squadron? :shock: :shock:
So 33 of each in service when we are pushing back on even 6 refuellers due to cost?
i think the AWACS term used here includes the AEW&C as well .. makes more sense now

Besides it pays to see what the IAF is against., also that with force levels declining it would need more force multipliers and tech upgrades to pack a heavy punch
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by Bart S »

Karan M wrote:
Thakur_B wrote:Karan ji, didn't LRDE issue tenders for design of S, L and X band GaN TRRM circa 2013/14 for AWACS India project, right around the time they issued the layout for quad array dome ?
Yes, and they have designs ready for L,S Bands. By the time of AWACS India, I expect further improvements in the design and localization.
Do we have fabrication capabilities for GaN or source it from somewhere else?

I think the only way for us to be in the game is to have a parallel commercial operation for monetizing these technologies. We need a desi equivalent of Cree etc and we have a clear need for such commercial tech for lighting, solar and other growth areas anyway.
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by ArjunPandit »

chola wrote:
ArjunPandit wrote:It has been close to 2 decades since this accident happened. While remembering this is fine, but can we move on. Chola do you hear about the WW2 pilots who died taking off from aircraft carriers these days?
Again, agree.

But the Avro incident is a cautionary tale that putting a large structure on top of aircraft is no easy business.
Everything is difficultbefore it becomes easy. If given time and resources we will master all these things. Tejas and missile technology are examples of this. I liked your post in kavery thread. The question is how many countries can do on such a scale that we are doing.
As karan said, things are changing and they are changing for good.
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by sivab »

Bart S wrote:
Do we have fabrication capabilities for GaN or source it from somewhere else?
GoI gave approval to setup commercial scale GaN facility at IISc this year at a cost of ~$500M. IISc already has sub-commercial scale fab capability,
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by PratikDas »

sivab wrote:
Bart S wrote:
Do we have fabrication capabilities for GaN or source it from somewhere else?
GoI gave approval to setup commercial scale GaN facility at IISc this year at a cost of ~$500M. IISc already has sub-commercial scale fab capability,
https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/946947625034555392
29 Dec 2017
It is also imperative that India create foundries for gallium nitride, silicon carbide and mercury telluride. The Rs 3000 crore proposal for a GaN foundry at IISc, Bengaluru is just sitting there without actually being approved. This has to change.
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by Karan M »

The foundry at IISC will be above and beyond the capabilities at SITAR & GAETEC which we already use plus a few others.
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Re: AEW&C News & Discussion

Post by Kartik »

Netra AEW&C

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