Artillery: News & Discussion

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ArjunPandit
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by ArjunPandit »

To put things in perspective ATAGs range is approaching the range of NASR, assuming pakis would have added few extra kms
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Rishi_Tri »

Will the range be higher in Sikkim given the altitude? Say 55km!
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Kakkaji »

ramana wrote: I do hope they zero in on the root cause as the OFB shells are exploding in barrels across many different guns: 39 caliber guns Bofors and M777, Soltam and Dhanush 45 caliber guns. Definitely a shell issue and would be shame to blame the guns.

So far news reports suggest its the ERFB/BB shells that have this issue.

Did they have issues with M107 shells?
ramanaji:

Have you sent your analysis to the powers-that-be? I think you should.
ramana
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by ramana »

Karan M wrote:Interesting. Desperate times, desperate measures. Disagree with OFB gent who says rejection on flimsy grounds.
http://i.imgur.com/k5ooDRE.jpg

Image


Wonder what the flimsy reasons were? Dimensional or what? Which dimension?
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by ashishvikas »

Artillery gun Dhanush’s induction into Army delayed

Dinakar Peri
DECEMBER 30, 2017

Dr. Mukherjee said these six guns would be further offered to the Army for balance user exploitations likely by February-March 2018, after carrying out internal firings. “It is expected that BPC [bulk production clearance] will be accorded immediately after completion of the user exploitations,”


http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/a ... 334878.ece
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Gyan »

ATAGS and Dhanush "actual" orders will continue to be delayed for one test or another. M777 was cleared in less than one day after barrel explosions but Arjun saga for indigenous Howitzers goes on.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by ramana »

The report is not bad.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by ArjunPandit »

I was searching for at the following
1. If the 155 mm/45 caliber shells can be used across different types of guns
2. Given that in a 2-3years we will be receiving ~200 guns per year the requirements for training, actual use (on pukis :D :P ) and for WWR reserves will increase significantly, is there a plan to increase the OFB production? or will we be waking up later on and importing from Israel etc when the time comes?

1. I didnt get concrete info, but it seems shells are interchangable
2. There is no plan or such requirements given from forces too.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by ramana »

All shells are interchangable over different guns : Bofors 39 cal, upgraded 130 mm, M777 39 caliber, Dhanush 45 cal, ATAGs 52 cal, and Korean 52 cal.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Vivek K »

Mod note - Deleted. Unacceptable language. Please chose words with care and don't be so trigger happy while posting.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Thakur_B »

[quote="ArjunPandit"Given that in a 2-3years we will be receiving ~200 guns per year the requirements for training, actual use (on pukis :D :P ) and for WWR reserves will increase significantly, is there a plan to increase the OFB production? or will we be waking up later on and importing from Israel etc when the time comes?[/quote]

We currently have enough capacity allowing OFB to export to Middle East, so short to medium term, we will be fine.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Aditya G »

What about the OFB program to upgrade M46 to 155mm?
ArjunPandit wrote:As the year ends, wanted to summarize where we are on artillery issue, Things have not been upto 'brf' expectations even with this govt, but they are moving and looking way better than Donotony.

Here's my summary from googleshawsara swami


1. Dhanush: 3 delivered in 2016 (under trials). Plan was to induct 18 Guns in 2017, 36 Guns in 2018 and 60 Guns in 2019; completing the order for 114. because of the issues in tests, barrel redesign is considered (not sure if that impacts the deliveries). Ramana sir had detailed posts on the trial failure, which completely went over my head.

2. ATAGS: Summer trials and world record created. Winter trials to happen in Dec in sikkim. LSP of 40 cleared by NS. LSP Deliveries to start by 2019 end

3. K9 vajra: Provided the deal got signed in april'17 as chindu speculated, deliveries start in 18 months end by 42 months -> (Dec18-Dec 20) 100 guns. Poland signed a deal of 120 guns at less than half the price (http://www.armyrecognition.com/december ... oland.html): IDRW analysts are you reading this?

4. M777: Deliveries started; 145 guns, 2 guns received earlier this year, 1 damaged during testing. Three M777 guns will come to India in September 2018 and used for training. Thereafter, five guns will be inducted every month from March 2019 to June 2021.

5. Pinaka (Last but not the least): This one looks most promising, 2 pinaka regiments inducted, 4 ordered (2 in 2015, 2 in 2016 March), 6 ordered ( Nov 2016)not sure where does it lie in acquisition chain. Each regiment consists of three batteries of six Pinakas each, plus reserves. Assuming 20 in each regiment: we have 40 inducted, 80 +120 batteries ordered

so in a nutshell, we will receive at least 100+ guns starting from 2019 each year for may be next 3-5 years. If ATAGS orders materialize this number will go significantly up as those no.s are in ~2000s.

This is what i think primary roles of guns will be (obviously the gun works in both modes)
1. Dhanush: Defensive
2. ATAGS: Def/Offence
3. K9: Offense with IBGs
4. M777: Defence along with china border or in mountains
5. Pinaka: offence with IBGs for a breakthrough in their lines at critical nodes along with Grad, Smerch for hitting behind the lines and destroying C&C centers
Happy to be corrected in any of the information
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Akshay Kapoor »

I would like to see Bharat Forge making shells. They will do an excellent job.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Akshay Kapoor »

Aditya G wrote:What about the OFB program to upgrade M46 to 155mm?
ArjunPandit wrote:As the year ends, wanted to summarize where we are on artillery issue, Things have not been upto 'brf' expectations even with this govt, but they are moving and looking way better than Donotony.

Here's my summary from googleshawsara swami


1. Dhanush: 3 delivered in 2016 (under trials). Plan was to induct 18 Guns in 2017, 36 Guns in 2018 and 60 Guns in 2019; completing the order for 114. because of the issues in tests, barrel redesign is considered (not sure if that impacts the deliveries). Ramana sir had detailed posts on the trial failure, which completely went over my head.

2. ATAGS: Summer trials and world record created. Winter trials to happen in Dec in sikkim. LSP of 40 cleared by NS. LSP Deliveries to start by 2019 end

3. K9 vajra: Provided the deal got signed in april'17 as chindu speculated, deliveries start in 18 months end by 42 months -> (Dec18-Dec 20) 100 guns. Poland signed a deal of 120 guns at less than half the price (http://www.armyrecognition.com/december ... oland.html): IDRW analysts are you reading this?

4. M777: Deliveries started; 145 guns, 2 guns received earlier this year, 1 damaged during testing. Three M777 guns will come to India in September 2018 and used for training. Thereafter, five guns will be inducted every month from March 2019 to June 2021.

5. Pinaka (Last but not the least): This one looks most promising, 2 pinaka regiments inducted, 4 ordered (2 in 2015, 2 in 2016 March), 6 ordered ( Nov 2016)not sure where does it lie in acquisition chain. Each regiment consists of three batteries of six Pinakas each, plus reserves. Assuming 20 in each regiment: we have 40 inducted, 80 +120 batteries ordered

so in a nutshell, we will receive at least 100+ guns starting from 2019 each year for may be next 3-5 years. If ATAGS orders materialize this number will go significantly up as those no.s are in ~2000s.

This is what i think primary roles of guns will be (obviously the gun works in both modes)
1. Dhanush: Defensive
2. ATAGS: Def/Offence
3. K9: Offense with IBGs
4. M777: Defence along with china border or in mountains
5. Pinaka: offence with IBGs for a breakthrough in their lines at critical nodes along with Grad, Smerch for hitting behind the lines and destroying C&C centers
Happy to be corrected in any of the information
Arjun ji, suggest you amend your post re offence - defence roles using the inputs given after you posted. I would not even categorise by offense defence because all guns can be used in both roles.

Re terrains

K9 will indeed be used by strike corps but can also be used by 12 Corps. M777 will be used by MSC.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Gyan »

Bulk production clearance has NOT been given to Dhanush. Hence the earliest possible time for 1st production howitzer to roll out is 2020. ATAGS is not even an order yet, only hope. More M777 will be ordered around 2020 and Dhanush & ATAGS will be termed as too heavy.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Akshay Kapoor »

Gyan, if you are having a slow day and have a lot of time then use it productively somewhere else. Don't post silly comments here. I won't have you derailing this.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by ArjunPandit »

Akshay Kapoor wrote:
Arjun ji, suggest you amend your post re offence - defence roles using the inputs given after you posted. I would not even categorise by offense defence because all guns can be used in both roles.
saar coant edit my post now..is it because it has been quoted
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Akshay Kapoor »

ArjunPandit wrote:
Akshay Kapoor wrote:
Arjun ji, suggest you amend your post re offence - defence roles using the inputs given after you posted. I would not even categorise by offense defence because all guns can be used in both roles.
saar coant edit my post now..is it because it has been quoted
No worries. I’ll make the points here just for everyone’s reference.

Addendum to Arjun Pandits post on various guns in various roles :

All guns and missiles can be used in offensive and defensive roles. Another way to think about it is advance and retreat and counter battery fire. So it just depends on the situation.

For example, one way to use massed arty is by concentrating them in a division and then bringing huge volume of fire to bear to actually create a space for advance. It is called maneuver by fire. Interested readers should definitely read Rohit Vats excellent blog on arty divs on this. You will notice that even 130 mm guns are part of that div. So Dhanush can certainly be used for that.

Other offensive roles can be in support of an infantry assault on mountains. Kargil was a great example where both rocket and tube arty was used.

Arty can also be used in support of battalion and brigade attacks in all terrain. But exactly the same gun can be used defensively from prepared positions to ambush the enemy. In that context M777 is earmarked for MSC but no reason why it cannot be used in a defensive role if the situation demands.

Counterbattery fire is another role where the objective is more to destroy enemy arty so that it cannot interfere with own assault. We had a lot of casualties in Kargil due to Pak arty so if we could have taken it out more effectively at longer ranges it would have saved a lot of lives. Both tube and Rocket arty is quite useful for this.

In defense arty can be used to blunt an enemy offensive.

So in the context of Arjunji’s post all these systems can be used in different roles but he is quite right that M777 is earmarked for MSC at the moment and K7 for support of armoured formations in the desert or semi desert areas. I’m not sure if they will be part of IBG (which is only on paper as of now ) or Arty Divs or the arty brigades of armoured divs.

Quiz - not arty but we used tanks in a very innovative way that had never been done before to take out Pak mortars/guns which were sighted in caves in one of our wars with Pak. This aupported a very important victory with big strategic consequences. Which action am I talking about.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by tsarkar »

^^ Easy. You need mountains to build caves. The only tank action in the mountains was Zoji La (Chusul was a plateau).

And those two engagements made IA a firm believer of light/medium tanks :D
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by ArjunPandit »

Akshay Kapoor wrote:
Quiz - not arty but we used tanks in a very innovative way that had never been done before to take out Pak mortars/guns which were sighted in caves in one of our wars with Pak. This aupported a very important victory with big strategic consequences. Which action am I talking about.
my maternal grandfather used to quote me about this battle. A vehment opposer of nehru/gandhi clan for non violence and their denigration of OF core hindu traditions and ancient wisdom over the so called modernity of that age.
I still remmeber him telling me about battle of jojila (when i was in 5th class i guess) quoting paki generals saying how could indians bring tanks in this area. It was unprecedented.
..TS sir beat me out to this
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by shaun »

Casualties due na-pak artillery during kargil war . How our counter batteries faired , at least I did not find any account on that . Heard we we're handicapped by non funtional weapon locating radars from the Khan's.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Akshay Kapoor »

ArjunPandit wrote:
Akshay Kapoor wrote:
Quiz - not arty but we used tanks in a very innovative way that had never been done before to take out Pak mortars/guns which were sighted in caves in one of our wars with Pak. This aupported a very important victory with big strategic consequences. Which action am I talking about.
my maternal grandfather used to quote me about this battle. A vehment opposer of nehru/gandhi clan for non violence and their denigration of OF core hindu traditions and ancient wisdom over the so called modernity of that age.
I still remmeber him telling me about battle of jojila (when i was in 5th class i guess) quoting paki generals saying how could indians bring tanks in this area. It was unprecedented.
..TS sir beat me out to this
Indeed T Sarkar sir is fast on the draw !! And my compliments to you and my pranaam to your Nanaji.

One correction to my post. They were MMGs not guns.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by manjgu »

Damn... i learnt something new..Dhanush primary role is defence !! and ATAGS is offence/defence !! I mean what is a rifle then? :eek: what is Bofors ? if dhanush is defence then bofors is surely defence ?? i used to think if u charging the enemy then every weapon is offence and if u running away saving ur ass then its defence. and wasnt offence the best defence...confusing.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Akshay Kapoor »

manjgu wrote:Damn... i learnt something new..Dhanush primary role is defence !! and ATAGS is offence/defence !! I mean what is a rifle then? :eek: what is Bofors ? if dhanush is defence then bofors is surely defence ?? i used to think if u charging the enemy then every weapon is offence and if u running away saving ur ass then its defence. and wasnt offence the best defence...confusing.
:rotfl: That’s an Important point - ‘when you are charging the enenemy .....’. So weapons are not inherently offensive or defensive their use is.

So What is an ambush in the context ?
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Thakur_B »

Akshay Kapoor wrote:
Quiz - not arty but we used tanks in a very innovative way that had never been done before to take out Pak mortars/guns which were sighted in caves in one of our wars with Pak. This aupported a very important victory with big strategic consequences. Which action am I talking about.
Is there any successful use of Tanks in mountain / hilly terrain since operation duck? I believe any half decent infantry with cheap wire guided ATGMs will be able to make minced meat of any armoured column in the mountains today.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by manjgu »

akshay bhai... the same rule applies..if in a ambush , u r saving ur ass then its defensive...if u punishing someones ass its offence. i mean this whole offence defence business is stupid..weapon is to kill ur enemy.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by manjgu »

thakur bhai..no armoured column in mountains..but tanks used effectively as pill boxes on the LOC... now is that offensive/defensive? :eek:
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Manish_P »

^ Both. They are mightly offending Pakistan while defending India's LOC :mrgreen:

BTW Tanks as pillboxes.. are they not-too-mobile tanks or are they not-too-stationary pillboxes ? :P
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Akshay Kapoor »

manjgu wrote:akshay bhai... the same rule applies..if in a ambush , u r saving ur ass then its defensive...if u punishing someones ass its offence. i mean this whole offence defence business is stupid..weapon is to kill ur enemy.
I agree. Weapons are not inherently offensive or defensive. Though tactics are are another thing. I'm glad this point has been well made.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Akshay Kapoor »

tsarkar wrote:^^ Easy. You need mountains to build caves. The only tank action in the mountains was Zoji La (Chusul was a plateau).

And those two engagements made IA a firm believer of light/medium tanks :D

Sir forgot to ask you. Did you know the answer immediately or did you narrow it down to Chusul and Zozjila and then use the above logic.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by tsarkar »

Akshay Kapoor wrote:
tsarkar wrote:^^ Easy. You need mountains to build caves. The only tank action in the mountains was Zoji La (Chusul was a plateau).

And those two engagements made IA a firm believer of light/medium tanks :D

Sir forgot to ask you. Did you know the answer immediately or did you narrow it down to Chusul and Zozjila and then use the above logic.
Akshay, I'm an avid student of strategy for decades in my spare time. Before Internet, I was the biggest borrower of books from the Command Library, even during Sri Lanka. History gives a lot of insight and has proven useful in my career. You learn from other's successes and avoid their failures.

So yes, I knew about Zoji La, but added the logical reasoning as well :)
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by tsarkar »

Thakur_B wrote:Is there any successful use of Tanks in mountain / hilly terrain since operation duck? I believe any half decent infantry with cheap wire guided ATGMs will be able to make minced meat of any armoured column in the mountains today.
Yes, Chushul

More recently Afghanistan https://www.stripes.com/news/afghan-arm ... e-1.294062
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by sudeepj »

There is a kind of fascination of 'ATGMS' in popular imagination. Its a David vs Goliath story so it appeals to our deepest internal narratives. However, ATGMS are inherently defensive weapons. Tanks will probe and probe and appear in mass numbers at a spot where you will not have enough ATGM teams. Further, active armor advances have made most ATGMs vulnerable. Active Armor is available with almost all major power blocks today, Americans, Russians, Chinese, Israelis for some free lance stuff..

Just how will an ATGM kill a tank with active armor that blows up the missile a few meters in front of the vehicle? Once again, the only way to kill tanks to going to become other tanks or Aircraft. The first attacking force with active armor is going to be wildly successful and tactics/strategy will need to go back to the days when infantry was nearly defenseless against tanks.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by abhik »

A little OT but Armor vs Anti Armor (ATGM) developments will always be a cat mouse game, I'm sure ways to defeat active armor are being researched into right as we speak (as should we). I would speculate that the next gen of ATGMs might carry radar jammers, decoys, may be even chaff, have the ability to home in on any laser (or light) dazzler etc.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Akshay Kapoor »

tsarkar wrote:
Akshay Kapoor wrote:
Sir forgot to ask you. Did you know the answer immediately or did you narrow it down to Chusul and Zozjila and then use the above logic.
Akshay, I'm an avid student of strategy for decades in my spare time. Before Internet, I was the biggest borrower of books from the Command Library, even during Sri Lanka. History gives a lot of insight and has proven useful in my career. You learn from other's successes and avoid their failures.

So yes, I knew about Zoji La, but added the logical reasoning as well :)
Not everyone has this thirst to learn about different arms of their own service forget another service ! Sign of a true professional. Do read Gen VS Raghavan's Infantry in India. And Op Kartikeya by Airavat Singh.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Singha »

imo human powered ATGMs are on way out. the proper armies will field SFW weapons enmasse delivered by artillery, 120mm mortars, air or MLRS to overwhelm any active or passive defence from the top aspects. infantry might still carry them as a last tool of defence but mainly will rely on networked fires from artillery units covering their grid.

given enough artillery(protected by SAMs), life is almost impossible for tanks when tracked by airborne GMTI sensors in any weather. if they mass for the attack, they will get hit by increasingly smarter top attack weapons and blocked by artillery and air delivered mines. if they scatter they lose their potency. there is no limit to how much artillery you unleash downrange, but nature of roads and bridges limits the volume and weight of tanks to below 65tons. unless new materials tech is applied, like turbine blades moved from titanium to some exotic composite material, the MBT is a evolutionary dead end like a mainframe computer.

perhaps masses of lightly protected but fast and heavily armed wheeled and tracked unmanned vehicles is the next gen. intelligent sharp shape shifting creatures like those AI bikes in terminators. all the tech is already there now.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by VKumar »

Future is machines Vs machines. Then end of warfare because of MAD considerations. At least between developed nations.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by srai »

VKumar wrote:Future is machines Vs machines. Then end of warfare because of MAD considerations. At least between developed nations.
Judgement Day is fast approaching ...
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Singha »

another RMA i see is adaptation of the SA15 tor type vehicle for modular packs of LR helina type ATGMs. multiple 'batteries' of such dumb vehicles could be given targets by command/spotter vehicles or UAVs. these packs could be towed on wheeled trailers also.

only in impassable mountains a man portable ATGM could find use.
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Re: Artillery Discussion Thread

Post by Akshay Kapoor »

For serious students of how infantry can use Missiles against not only tanks but against defences like bunkers and Sangars one only needs to look at recent Indian army operations including Kargil. I also strongly recommend reading Infantry in India by Gen VS Raghavan to see how infantry tactics have evolved and are evolving using missiles.

For Sci fi fans like some posts above I see BR now has a Sci fi thread !!

Back to arty pls.
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