MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

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ArjunPandit
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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Post by ArjunPandit »

It might be a stupid question but can arjun take a defensive role while t 90 takes an offensive role in the rear
Indranil
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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Post by Indranil »

Karan and Gagan sir, you both know better than to engage in this tu-tu-main-main. You are oldies and knowledgeable. We expect close to model behaviour from both of you :-)
Karan M
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Post by Karan M »

[Edited]
Last edited by ramana on 30 Nov 2017 23:56, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: ramana
Indranil
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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Post by Indranil »

Give each other some leeway. Everything will be fine.
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Post by srin »

Arun.prabhu wrote:
srin wrote:^^ Two questions:
- What's the effectiveness of HESH round on spaced armour ?
- How does the muzzle velocity of 105mm howitzer compare to that of a tank ?
Oh, and muzzle velocity doesn’t matter because you’re firing line of sight and you don’t need kinetic energy to defeat the armor like a silver bullet does.

Edited because I clicked submit before composing the whole message, the idiot that I am.
How will this 105 ultra light howitzer target moving tanks ? Shoot in a parabolic trajectory and hope that the tank doesn't move for next 10 seconds?
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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Post by Arun.prabhu »

srin wrote:
Arun.prabhu wrote:
Oh, and muzzle velocity doesn’t matter because you’re firing line of sight and you don’t need kinetic energy to defeat the armor like a silver bullet does.

Edited because I clicked submit before composing the whole message, the idiot that I am.
How will this 105 ultra light howitzer target moving tanks ? Shoot in a parabolic trajectory and hope that the tank doesn't move for next 10 seconds?
I’m talking direct line of sight fire here and you’re talking indirect fire? Do silver bullets miraculously travel at the speed of light and blow up enemy tanks?
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Post by ParGha »

Arun.prabhu wrote:I’m talking direct line of sight fire here and you’re talking indirect fire? Do silver bullets miraculously travel at the speed of light and blow up enemy tanks?
It is very difficult to hit a moving target with direct fire artillery, and it is very dangerous to your crew especially after the first round has been fired and your position revealed.

IA has known this since at least the 1940s, when its "anti-tank regiments" had one battery of anti-tank guns and two batteries of medium/heavy mortars. Even the Russians, who had long invested in such artillery, have largely abandoned this concept (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-12_antitank_gun) except for border guards.

That said, indirect-fire artillery is still a potent tank-killer if it catches a tank regiment in a railway-station or a narrow mountain/marsh pass.
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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Post by shiv »

srin wrote: How will this 105 ultra light howitzer target moving tanks ? Shoot in a parabolic trajectory and hope that the tank doesn't move for next 10 seconds?
Use stop signal.

OFB site says 105 mm shell has mujjle velocity of 600 plus m/s depending on charge. Assume 700 Range 11 km (probably as howitzer) In direct line of sight a tank at 1 km moving at 40 kmph will have moved 11 meters - which is more than the length of Al Khaled tank. "Andaaz" aiming like skeet shooting will be needed. The Howitzer has no mechanism for compensating for movement because artillery is an area weapon or for static targets in direct fire mode. Tanks could be hit if they are heading directly at the Howitzer. Or showing sooth and running. The Kalyani truck mounted Howitzer uses OFB gun and is based on this:

https://youtu.be/4b_-VOTl7FM


Note that 1 km is dangerously close. Tanks are able to hit moving targets well in excess of that. Once the Howitzer is spotted it will be put in a Howitzer blitzer.
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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Post by ParGha »

ArjunPandit wrote:It might be a stupid question but can arjun take a defensive role while t 90 takes an offensive role in the rear
It is a legitimate question, and seriously worth pursuing if it helps preserve the knowledge and capabilities that has been built up over last 30 years, AND provides a platform to incrementally build and deploy own engine, transmission, etc.

In a defensive role in critical areas like Akhnoor and Gurdaspur where neither side is likely to make a lot of headway, IA can live with the trade-off between Arjun's better armor and lower mobility (while India works out its domestic engines and transmission).
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Post by Thakur_B »

shiv wrote:
srin wrote: How will this 105 ultra light howitzer target moving tanks ? Shoot in a parabolic trajectory and hope that the tank doesn't move for next 10 seconds?
Use stop signal.

OFB site says 105 mm shell has mujjle velocity of 600 plus m/s depending on charge. Assume 700 Range 11 km (probably as howitzer) In direct line of sight a tank at 1 km moving at 40 kmph will have moved 11 meters - which is more than the length of Al Khaled tank. "Andaaz" aiming like skeet shooting will be needed. The Howitzer has no mechanism for compensating for movement because artillery is an area weapon or for static targets in direct fire mode. Tanks could be hit if they are heading directly at the Howitzer. Or showing sooth and running. The Kalyani truck mounted Howitzer uses OFB gun and is based on this:

https://youtu.be/4b_-VOTl7FM

Note that 1 km is dangerously close. Tanks are able to hit moving targets well in excess of that. Once the Howitzer is spotted it will be put in a Howitzer blitzer.

How/why does the barrel move forward before shell is fired ?
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Post by Picklu »

Thakur_B wrote:
shiv wrote: Use stop signal.

OFB site says 105 mm shell has mujjle velocity of 600 plus m/s depending on charge. Assume 700 Range 11 km (probably as howitzer) In direct line of sight a tank at 1 km moving at 40 kmph will have moved 11 meters - which is more than the length of Al Khaled tank. "Andaaz" aiming like skeet shooting will be needed. The Howitzer has no mechanism for compensating for movement because artillery is an area weapon or for static targets in direct fire mode. Tanks could be hit if they are heading directly at the Howitzer. Or showing sooth and running. The Kalyani truck mounted Howitzer uses OFB gun and is based on this:

https://youtu.be/4b_-VOTl7FM

Note that 1 km is dangerously close. Tanks are able to hit moving targets well in excess of that. Once the Howitzer is spotted it will be put in a Howitzer blitzer.
How/why does the barrel move forward before shell is fired ?
Soft recoil system, developed by Mandus group for this hawkeye system. Same used in the ultra light gun by Kalyani
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Post by Thakur_B »

I know that, just wondering how does that work.
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Post by Gyan »

In an emergency do or die situation, I expect tanks to be moving towards 105mm artillery. In that situation from 3km onwards, artillery can engage tanks in direct fire mode as deviation from targeted position will be minimal ( if tanks are moving towards artillery positions). Though 105mm artillery will do most of the dying.
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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Post by srin »

Arun.prabhu wrote:
srin wrote:
How will this 105 ultra light howitzer target moving tanks ? Shoot in a parabolic trajectory and hope that the tank doesn't move for next 10 seconds?
I’m talking direct line of sight fire here and you’re talking indirect fire? Do silver bullets miraculously travel at the speed of light and blow up enemy tanks?
Even in direct fire, it needs to be aimed. And with such a low muzzle velocity (~700 m/s compared to a tanks` 1600 m/s), it has to use a more ballistic trajectory, no ? And that increases the time to hit the target. Which makes it iffy against a moving target.
And what is the silver bullet you keep talking about ?
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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Post by abhik »

Thakur_B wrote:I know that, just wondering how does that work.
https://youtu.be/yDQDJnUJyl8?t=55s
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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Post by Thakur_B »

abhik wrote:
Thakur_B wrote:I know that, just wondering how does that work.
https://youtu.be/yDQDJnUJyl8?t=55s
Thanks Abhik. This means soft recoil is something like a blowback recoil system, but with entire breech and barrel assembly been thrown forward instead of just hammer.
ramana
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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Post by ramana »

srin, Good point the low velocity of the 105 mm HESH round makes it doubtful to engage moving tanks at long distances. Most likely its do or die last ditch near range engagement.
Most arty guns have direct fire mode and a anti-tank round since WWII.

Hopefully the new PGK fuze will allow a top down attack on the tanks.
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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Post by ramana »

Indranil wrote:Karan and Gagan sir, you both know better than to engage in this tu-tu-main-main. You are oldies and knowledgeable. We expect close to model behaviour from both of you :-)
I second that.

I have edited the posts to avoid fratricide.

Thanks for understanding.
ramana
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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Post by srin »

Story of South Korea's K2 tank

Read and weep. This was Arjun was meant to do for us, and we can still do it.
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Post by Philip »

At $8.3M it is a costly tank .Arjun is a little more expensive but is 10t heavier and better protected. The DRDO/ CVRDE must now accelerate design/dev. of a smaller more futuristic FMBT whatever its nomenclature .IDRW has a May 2017 article discussing the Arjun, FMBT and T-14.According to it we are trying to develop a 2-man auto turret MBT, no gunner or loader.The long gestation time is a worry which may result in T-14 tech/T- 14 platforms acquired in the interim given the IA's familiarity with the T series.
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Post by ramana »

No bread slicer?
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Post by ramana »

I think to be really futuristic the tank should have a laser cannon and a huge capacitor bank. The engine can be used to generate electricity to charge the laser.
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Post by SaiK »

http://www.governancenow.com/views/colu ... nce-forces

Why the fight for Tejas and Arjun is not just about defence forces

They are symbols of decades of research and hard work accumulating, integrating and establishing technologies that have the potential to transform India’s model of growth and development
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Post by Cybaru »

Stupid question, but if MOD folks are ever found guilty of taking bribes and killing an indigenous product can they be court martialed?
India has also been participating in the tank games for the last couple of years using its variants of the T-72 tanks. These games are considered to be the equivalent of Olympics for tank crews and commanders. The Chinese were also extremely keen for Arjun to participate since they have been using their top of the line Type-96B in these games. To China’s credit, Type-96B in terms of sheer quality has kept pace with some of the best tanks that Russia and the world has to offer. The eventual difference between the winning and losing crews, especially as far as competition between China, India and Russia was concerned, was in terms of crew training, familiarity with the course and the equipment that they were using. Both the Russians and Chinese had heard enough good things about Arjun to lobby the Indian government hard to get them to participate. The Indian Army was reluctant, but the then defence minister Manohar Parrikar put his foot down. An extremely petulant Indian Army entered the contest with India to be represented by two Arjun MK1s to be drawn from the 75th armoured unit stationed at Jaisalmer. An excited DRDO started the modifications like strengthening undercarriages and removing the explosive reactive armour (ERA) packs to increase mobility required for the games.

But Parrikar become the Goa chief minister and the defence ministry was temporarily under Arun Jaitley. The Indian Army immediately nixed the plan to send the Arjun tanks and instead sent two T-90M Bhishmas to represent our country. To be fair, the T-90M performed creditably and quite well and the Indian Army tank crew, at one point, was actually leading the biathalon. However, both the T-90s broke down and India was knocked out. The point here is not about the T-90M, which are excellent and robust tanks, but it is about how Arjun, which in every respect seems to be better than the T-90M, is not allowed to showcase it strength and potential. In some ways then, Arjun seems to be Karna of modern India, such a whimsical twist that it puts irony out of shape.
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Post by ArjunPandit »

^^^^A raja and kanimozi are not found guilty in this and you are expecting MoD folks to be found guilty.
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Post by Manish_P »

Court martial is only for military personnel, isn't it.

A closer parallel would be baboos... like these creatures for eg - The Tale Of Two Joshis From Bhopal

They will probably be in some time (if not out already).. and some reports suggesting that their kids have happily married and setlled in the land of the free.

From the article
While Tinu was a deputy secretary in the PMO in 1988-89, her husband was a joint secretary in defence ministry during the 1999 Kargil war. It was around that time that a major deal for purchase of light helicopters was signed and he is believed to have made his millions during the period.
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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Post by VKumar »

ParGha wrote:
Arun.prabhu wrote:I’m talking direct line of sight fire here and you’re talking indirect fire? Do silver bullets miraculously travel at the speed of light and blow up enemy tanks?
It is very difficult to hit a moving target with direct fire artillery, and it is very dangerous to your crew especially after the first round has been fired and your position revealed.

IA has known this since at least the 1940s, when its "anti-tank regiments" had one battery of anti-tank guns and two batteries of medium/heavy mortars. Even the Russians, who had long invested in such artillery, have largely abandoned this concept (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-12_antitank_gun) except for border guards.

That said, indirect-fire artillery is still a potent tank-killer if it catches a tank regiment in a railway-station or a narrow mountain/marsh pass.

PVC Abdul Hamid used anti tank recoilless rifle mounted on Jeep.
The idea is to shoot and scoot.
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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Post by sohamn »

A recoilless rifle is not an artillery piece, it's more like a handheld rocket, albeit slightly larger. You can shoot and scoot with Carl Gustav but can't go the same with direct fire anti-tank artillery. The best anti-tank weapons in open land are
a) Another Tank like Arjun
b) Helicopter with Helina
c) Dedicated tank destroyers like BMP based namica

Also, Carl Gustav won't penetrate the armour of any modern tank, I think its kept in reserve for destroying pillboxes and light armoured vehicles only.
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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Post by Philip »

What light helo was signed in the aftermath of Kargil? To the best of my knowledge zilch, why the LUH req. is so critical today.The only light helos acquired were HAL built Chetak/Cheetahs.
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Post by Manish_P »

chola
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Post by chola »

srin wrote:Story of South Korea's K2 tank

Read and weep. This was Arjun was meant to do for us, and we can still do it.

Not weep. Read and learn. The South Koreans have exploded on the global export stage on sea and in air as well as land.

They also screwdriver giri from the West as well but have structured their contracts so they now sell howitzers to Norway and frigates to the Phillipines. Oh yeah, they might end up supplying the USAF with hundreds of trainers.

And the stuff they’ve built for themselves from this access to the Western arsenal is world class — the K2 mentioned above but also their Sejong class with 128 VLS (80 launchers on Mk41, 48 on indigenous K-VLS) is probably the most powerful destroyer on earth.

We have the same access to technology as the South Koreans. Actually, we have more — the SoKos don’t have access to Russian stuff. What the South Koreans have done is imminently possible for us. And we have a larger defense budget.

Don’t weep. Be inspired. Learn.
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Post by Vips »

South Korea got the TOT from Germany for the U209 submarine, mastered its production, improved its performance and even competed against the Germans for order from the Indonesian Navy!!!
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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Post by Rishi_Tri »

Manish_P wrote:Arjun in K K Range sector

Cross post of Uddu, from the Armor thread (From DFI)



Fantastic videos. Great advertisement for the Hydro Pneumatic suspension. Had spoken with an Army Officer involved in the program on sidelines of DefExpo in Delhi some years ago and he said, the suspension was one of the best in the world.

BTW, the Dog must have had the fright of his life though he had the best view. :)
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Post by Manish_P »

Actually the dog seems pretty relaxed as the Arjun smoothly goes past. Seems it has a lot of confidence in the Arjun and the driver.
(Could be distance or could be familiarity)

Compared to the strays in my colony, who run crazy scared even if a small unfamiliar truck rumbles in :)
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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Post by ashishvikas »

Saurav Jha -
Things are becoming interesting now. Here's a rendition of a 'revolutionary configuration' study for a potential next generation main battle tank by DRDO's CVRDE that could weigh in at just 41 tons. Source: DRDO's DSJ

It's been dubbed Generation Next MBT = GNMBT.


Of course, the paper itself where this rendition is given deals with the use of a 'design of experiments' statistical approach towards weight management for which both an evolutionary and a revolutionary configuration were considered.

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/948618584829321216
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Post by srai »

ashishvikas wrote:Saurav Jha -
Things are becoming interesting now. Here's a rendition of a 'revolutionary configuration' study for a potential next generation main battle tank by DRDO's CVRDE that could weigh in at just 41 tons. Source: DRDO's DSJ

It's been dubbed Generation Next MBT = GNMBT.


Of course, the paper itself where this rendition is given deals with the use of a 'design of experiments' statistical approach towards weight management for which both an evolutionary and a revolutionary configuration were considered.

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/948618584829321216
Image
Image

Better for them to move to 2-crew--Driver and WSO--configuration. No need for a separate "gunner".
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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Post by ramana »

Pratik has a conceptual study on an electric drive for Arjun. He will post here soon.
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Post by Karan M »

SRai - IMHO three crew are needed at a minimum to maintain the tank, maintain situational awareness (even with electronics, under NBC and combat environment, how many hours can a human manage) & also provide redundancy (if one crew is injured, say the gunner, the commander can take over).

Also, IA is used to three crew per tank, so it won't rock the boat.

PS: Wouldn't it be great if this NGMBT gets funded, developed and even clears trials while the FCRV does a MMRCA and results in some boondoggle (because that's what seems likely will happen).
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Post by Vivek K »

DRDO would be stupid to get into the tank business again. The tank biathlon representation change shows the mindset. Chola, weep is the right word. Be inspired and then at the last moment the corrupt come forth and nix indigenous development. So inspiration will only lead to frustration unless the mindset is changed from within the IA.
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Post by Karan M »

Stupid or not, DRDO has to do what the nation requires of them. If they had sat watching at the sidelines, as in ATAGS, listening to all the mocking naysayers there would be no ATAGS program or Astra or so many others, where easier imports were available. So Arjun did not work out, but lets not throw our tank building expertise into the dustbin.
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