Solar energy in India

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JohnTitor
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Re: Solar energy in India

Post by JohnTitor »

Solar gurus

I'm planning roof top solar panels for a new build in karnataka.

I've been doing some research and I qas told that german panels are superior to indian/chinese panels. However, I've been quoted about 1lac pwr kwh.. apparently indian/chinese panels will being down the cost to 60-70k per kwh. While the difference doesn't seem much, when we arw looking at 3-5kwh worth of panels thw difference is huge.

Is it really worth paying for the German panels? The guy says that defects on the local panels will mean significantly lower power production..

Opinions?
guru.shetty
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Re: Solar energy in India

Post by guru.shetty »

I've been doing some research and I qas told that german panels are superior to indian/chinese panels. However, I've been quoted about 1lac pwr kwh.. apparently indian/chinese panels will being down the cost to 60-70k per kwh. While the difference doesn't seem much, when we arw looking at 3-5kwh worth of panels thw difference is huge.
Kwh is a unit of energy. Kw is a unit of power. Not trying to nitpick, but just putting it out there. What you are being quoted is most likely for kw. Also, are your prices post govt subsidies?

Generally, it is not really true that German panels are superior. Some chinese companies make excellent panels too. In the US, a very popular one for residential installations these days is LG, which is korean. The ones on my roof are made by mitsibushi. A reputer manufacturer selling in the US gives 25 year warranty. Solar panels can last a good 40 years. So, my suggestion is to pick a company which gives a good warranty and you think that the company will last for that many years. Warranty is important for both panels snd inverters.

Generally, you need to make apples to apples comparision. A typical solar installation has the following costs.

1. Solar panels. A high quality panels costs around 80 cents per watt for residential systems. Mass procured panels cost 35 cents per watt for utility scaled systems.

2. Inverters. 2 popular types are string inverter and micro-inverters. Costs are very different. When you use what is also different.

3. Hardware costs for instsllation: screws, brackets etc.

4. Labor costs, profits and marketing costs of the installer.

From what I hear, in India, you are looking at $1.5 per watt for the entire setup - if high quality stuff is installed. This is before subsidies. You can then multiply it by your system size.

The place where you install panels can make a huge difference to ROI. In northern hemisphere, south facing roof has best exposure. Depending on your location, you then decide on tilt of panels for max benefit. And shade is a big no-no.

Edit: If roof size is small, higher efficiency panels make sense. ~22% is considered high efgiciency. Regular panels are around 18% efficient. Cheap ones are ~15% efficient. solarpaneltalk.com is a good place for more research.
durairaaj
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Re: Solar energy in India

Post by durairaaj »

Just to give a tidbit,
Silicon panels themselves are almost everywhere its same.
The differentiaing factor is the conducting ink/paste/glue applied between silicon and metal current collector.
This is the crucial factor that determines the life of a panel. Even though the current collection efficiency may be similar for both low cost and German ones at the beginning. The aging will bring the significant difference out. The conductivity of the low cost panel will fall rapidly because of corrosion and increase in resistivity under the current collector. But its difficult to get this information from SPV suppliers. If possible ask for warranty for 10 years with respect to Solar cells efficiency.
JohnTitor
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Re: Solar energy in India

Post by JohnTitor »

Thanks guys.

Yes you are right it’s Kw and not KWh

Roof space is about 600-700 sqft so that is about 4 or 5 Kw worth of panels. The 1lac per kw quoted was for everything including installation..

I was told that there are no subsidies for the panels themselves but excess electricity can be sold to the grid.
I believe the warranty is 25 years for the panels, need to confirm if it is for efficiency though
Theo_Fidel

Re: Solar energy in India

Post by Theo_Fidel »

JohnTitor wrote:I'm planning roof top solar panels for a new build in karnataka.
In Karnataka with relatively benign climate, I would not bother with Panels from Germany. Almost all components, including those from Germany are sourced from the same handful of Asian suppliers. Only final assembly is local. Same is true of Indian panels. Not worth the price premium. defects ar e possible of course. But look at it this way. You will get about 15-20 panels. The savings from going with generic panels is 2 lakhs. Take 1 lakh and put it in bank. Easy warranty if 2-3 panels fail. Other one lakh, Idli Sambhar every day @ Darshini next 10 years. IME if a string or two fails the panels keep generating anyway. You just ignore the failures and let the remainder keep generating.

BTW 4-5 KW is a lot of power for India. In Karnataka High plateau yield 1800-2000 kwh / kw you will get around 8000-10,000 kwh per year. Almost 25-30 kwhr per day. Most Indian houses don't consume that much power during day. Make sure you have the net metering meter correctly installed. I have heard it is tough to get it approved and installed.
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Re: Solar energy in India

Post by UlanBatori »

JohnTitor wrote:Thanks guys.

Yes you are right it’s Kw and not KWh

Roof space is about 600-700 sqft so that is about 4 or 5 Kw worth of panels. The 1lac per kw quoted was for everything including installation..

I was told that there are no subsidies for the panels themselves but excess electricity can be sold to the grid.
I believe the warranty is 25 years for the panels, need to confirm if it is for efficiency though
For subsidies I think you should contact the organization called ANNERT (?) I think that is a GOI outfit. They not only give the subsidy, they guide you to local vendors who will handle the subsidy. Yesterday I heard from someone near PkD, Mongolia, about a 2KW system for a residential installation. ANNERT recommended the vendor (I think the vendors offer lousy customer service but that is another matter).

Also comparing solar panels, one should first understand what KIND of solar panels. HUGE difference in efficiency, cost and longevity, depending on whether you have mono-crystalline Silicon, polycrystalline (not as good) or amorphous/flexible sheet (far worse but low lifetime). So mono-crystalline will "cost" more but require less area and be more efficient.
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Re: Solar energy in India

Post by Vips »

World's largest solar park to come up in Gujarat.

Gujarat Chief Minister Vijay Rupani today approved setting up a 5,000 MW capacity solar park at the Dholera Special Investment Region (SIR), which would be the largest such entity in the world after its completion.

The proposed solar power generation project would be set up in 11,000 hectares of land with an investment of Rs 25,000 crore, said an official release.

The project will contribute significantly in achieving Prime Minister Narendra Modi's target of producing 175 gigawatt of electricity through renewable energy sources by 2022, said Rupani.

The chief minister exuded confidence that the solar park would not only provide employment to over 20,000 people, but also open new manufacturing avenues for the entire supply chain in and around the Dholera International City.
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Re: Solar energy in India

Post by ashbhee »

Vips wrote:World's largest solar park to come up in Gujarat.

Gujarat Chief Minister Vijay Rupani today approved setting up a 5,000 MW capacity solar park at the Dholera Special Investment Region (SIR), which would be the largest such entity in the world after its completion.
This is great, but where are these panels coming from? Are we going to simply import panels from China and install it or are we going to manufacture it?
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Re: Solar energy in India

Post by Vips »

Ladakh will soon be home to world's largest solar plant.

Ladakh, known for its pristine natural beauty and colourful mountains towering over vast swathes of desolate land, is set to add another feature to its fame - the world's largest single-location solar photovoltaic plant.

Some 200km to the south in Kargil, another mega project will join forces to light up the plains, keep glaciers cool by saving 12,750 tonne of carbon
emission a year, remove dependence on diesel gensets and create livelihood for the local population that remains cut off for 6-8 months.

SECI (Solar Energy Corporation of India)- under the renewable energy ministry - is promoting the projects in J&K on a scale matching the grandeur of their locations - 5,000 MW (mega watt) for the Ladakh unit and 2,500 MW for Kargil - to be completed by 2023 at an estimated investment of Rs 45,000 crore.

The Ladakh project will be located at Hanle-Khaldo in Nyoma, a strategically important area 254km from Leh. The Kargil project will be built at Suru in Zanskar, 254km from the district HQ. Power from the Ladakh project will flow to Kaithal in Haryana, for which a900-km line will be laid mostly along Leh-Manali road. The Kargil project will hook up with the grid at New Wanpoh near Srinagar. The bids offer flexibility and many firsts, like combining the plant and associated transmission lines, putting promoters in control who otherwise have to depend on another entity for transmission and suffer if evacuation routes are delayed.

We have addressed issues faced in previous tenders and taken into account the challenging geography," SECI director (power systems) SK Mishra told TOI.

Another positive is the Leh and Kargil administrations have designated 25,000 and 12,500 acres of non-grazing land, respectively, at prices "remunerative" for the hill councils, which will also earn rental of around Rs 1,200 per hectare per annum with 3% annual escalation. "Identification of land is a big relief for prospective promoters, who were gung-ho during a site visit in spite of the isolated locations and hostile weather," Mishra said.

The projects are expected to spur development in the remote border regions and empower the local population through skilling for jobs such as cleaning of solar panels and maintenance of transformers etc. Power minister RK Singh had in August last year said Ladakh has potential of hosting 25,000 MW of solar power projects.
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Re: Solar energy in India

Post by Neshant »

ashbhee wrote:
Vips wrote:World's largest solar park to come up in Gujarat.

Gujarat Chief Minister Vijay Rupani today approved setting up a 5,000 MW capacity solar park at the Dholera Special Investment Region (SIR), which would be the largest such entity in the world after its completion.
This is great, but where are these panels coming from? Are we going to simply import panels from China and install it or are we going to manufacture it?

+1. It's a load of money to spend on solar and if there is no local content, it's a giveaway of funds.

Are there any local solar manufacturers and will they be supplying the cells.
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Re: Solar energy in India

Post by Theo_Fidel »

Hah! This is what BRF has been saying for donkeys years. Though this is a bit aggressive. I think 2035 is more realistic.

350 GW to 40 % was BRF number. 500 GW and about 60% of our electricity should come from solar/wind/hydro, maybe higher if we take energy efficiency more seriously.

What happens to all those coal plants, I don’t think anyone knows. The GOI has bailed out Adani and Tata looks like in GJ for 1.5 US Cents / kwhr. Works out to ~ $30 Billion over the life/next 30 years of the plants, they will be back for more money. From what I understand they are still losing money, but obviously making Billions for their owners. This is more than the plants are worth! It’s a nice gig if you can get a bail out economy. Every time I think of coal in India I get a headache.

https://energy.economictimes.indiatimes ... 8/67418119
New Delhi: India is planning to bid out 500 gigawatt (GW) of renewable energy generation capacity by 2028 to achieve its goal of 40 per cent electricity generation from non-fossil fuels by 2030, said Anand Kumar, secretary, Ministry of New and Renewable Energy (MNRE), today at the India-Norway Business Summit 2019 in New Delhi.

Of this, 350 GW would come from solar, 140 GW from wind, and the remaining from small hydro, biomass, he added.

“This figure excludes large hydro. If we take large hydro into account the figure will grow to 560 GW to 575 GW. To reach this figure we have to bid out 30 GW of solar energy and 10 GW of wind energy every year,” Kumar said.

ALSO READ: First-of-its-kind tool to assess potential of rooftop solar in Bengaluru

Perfecting the next Generation Utility Platform
He further added that if the country's Gross Domestic Product (GDP) grows at a rate of 6.5 per cent, the requirement for electricity generation capacity would reach 840 GW by 2030.

“Out of 840 GW, we plan to install a little more than 500 GW in renewables. We have installed 75 GW renewable energy capacity in the country and another 46 GW is under various stages of installations,” added Kumar.

He also said that if large hydro projects were considered under renewable energy, additional 46 GW would be in the process of installation, taking the total figure to 163 GW.

The existing 75 Gw base of green energy capacity constitutes around 22 per cent of the total installed power generation capacity.

Kumar said that the share of non-fossil fuel based capacity in total would be 33 per cent by 2022 without considering large hydro plants. The country would achieve 40 per cent by 2022 itself rather than 2030 in case large hydro is also taken into account.
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Re: Solar energy in India

Post by ramana »

What are solar charkas?

Please post a description if you can. Thanks.
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Re: Solar energy in India

Post by JTull »

ramana wrote:What are solar charkas?

Please post a description if you can. Thanks.
http://www.haritkhadi.com/

To promote employment among poverty-struck people living in rural and semi-urban areas of India, Bhartiya Harit Khadi Gramodaya Sansthan came up with a unique model through Khadi Solar Charkha project. In an effort to revive Khadi and provide the poor with various employment opportunities through solar charkhas, we established the Bhartiya Harit Khadi Gramodaya Sansthan in June 2016. Our Organisation aims at manufacturing khadi organically be it from cotton fibre or other eco-friendly and locally available resources like banana leaves or milk. Using solar charkhas and solar looms ensure the continuous workflow in the various steps that involve in producing Khadi fabric.

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Re: Solar energy in India

Post by saip »

JohnTitor wrote:Thanks guys.

Yes you are right it’s Kw and not KWh

Roof space is about 600-700 sqft so that is about 4 or 5 Kw worth of panels. The 1lac per kw quoted was for everything including installation..

I was told that there are no subsidies for the panels themselves but excess electricity can be sold to the grid.
I believe the warranty is 25 years for the panels, need to confirm if it is for efficiency though
One thing you have to remember is solar panels do not produce rated power. I have 6.25 KW panels on my roof and I am in California. The highest they ever produced is 39 kwh (or units they are called in India I think) in a day in August (that is when they were installed) and the lowest is just 2 kwh (two) on a 100% cloudy day. On average I expect they will produce around 12 k units in a year and that is about 100% of my consumption. I have only completed 7 months since installation.
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Re: Solar energy in India

Post by JTull »

I hope battery technology is indigenised.
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Re: Solar energy in India

Post by banrjeer »

Does any one know Indian companies that make cells?

I know several that import cells and make modules
There are of course many companies that import modules.
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Re: Solar energy in India

Post by Supratik »

Top 5 solar companies in India.

https://youtu.be/7sk4rzp6RWY
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Re: Solar energy in India

Post by SwamyG »

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2019/06/ ... lar-power/
The costs of building large-scale solar installations in India fell by 27% in 2018, year-on-year, thanks to a combination of low-priced panel imports from China, abundant land and cheap labour.
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Re: Solar energy in India

Post by prasan »



100 KW solar panel installation on grid solar panel system solar panel wiring
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Re: Solar energy in India

Post by Mort Walker »

^^^Do you not have power at all from the state electricity board at your village house? That would be ideal with a combination of solar power for the day. Going off-grid is an expensive proposition. A combination of solar, wind, and even diesel generators may be needed depending on the size of the house and property if it is being used for agriculture.
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Re: Solar energy in India

Post by Rishirishi »

somdev wrote:I was planning for an off-grid solar installation for my village house. The cost of Li-ion batteries such as the Samsung SDI ESS 3.6KWH (which combines the PV inverter with Lithium-Ion battery storage) is still prohibitive!

Image
try https://www.bijlibachao.com/ for tips.
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Re: Solar energy in India

Post by Rishirishi »

[quote]Adani Green Energy wins world's largest solar bid worth $6 billion[/quote]

NEW DELHI: Adani Green Energy Ltd has bagged the world's largest solar bid entailing building a photovoltaic (PV) power plant of 8,000 MW and setting up a domestic solar panel manufacturing capacity of 2,000 MW,

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/bus ... 270025.cms
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Re: Solar energy in India

Post by Rishirishi »

https://cleantechnica.com/2020/06/22/in ... r-imports/

India has achieved about 35 GW of its current solar target of 100 GW by 2022 with a pipeline of 23.7 GW utility-scale projects under development and another 31.5 GW of tenders pending auction. In fact, as per several media reports India has now pushed its aggregate renewable energy target to 450 GW by 2030!
Adani Green Energy Limited (AGEL) and Azure Power have been declared to be the winners of the largest solar tender. This will result in the installation of 12 gigawatts (GW) of solar power generation and 3 GW per year solar manufacturing with an investment pegged at almost US $9 billion.
Hopefully we can say bye bye to coal and later Gas.
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Re: Solar energy in India

Post by Vips »

EESL, Shell in talks for Rs 40,000 crore JV.

State-run Energy Efficiency Services Ltd (EESL) is in talks with oil major Royal Dutch Shell for a joint venture to invest over Rs 40,000 crore in setting up 5,000 MW decentralised solar plants with storage for low-cost electricity in rural India.

EESL is also in talks with at least two other companies for a stake in the venture. Going by a regular debt:equity ratio of 80:20, the joint venture (JV) would invest about ₹8,000 crore. Sources said EESL can hold 51% in the JV. They said Shell is keen on the partnership as it is eyeing opportunities in India’s renewable energy space.

EESL is working on creating multiple revenue streams from land offered by state governments and taking clean energy to the demand point while eliminating line losses and costs, said managing director Saurabh Kumar. This will be the company’s largest project so far.

He did not divulge details of the JV. “We are looking to have an investor into a JV specifically for the solar and storage projects for rural India. Our promoters will invest some amount and we are looking at having an external investor. It could be any entity, which has similar goals as we have, in the long run,” Kumar said. Shell India did not offer comments saying, “We do not comment on market rumour or speculation".

Sources said the proposal includes setting up decentralised solar plants with storage on land provided by state governments to offer round-the clock power at an attractive price of ₹3.50 per unit for 25 years. EESL joint venture plans to source used batteries from car manufacturers, which are proposed to be used as stationery storage devices, they said.

The joint venture is placing its bets on the fact that state distribution companies incur heavy losses in supply to rural areas and towards
subsidies to agricultural consumers. The cost of supply to rural consumers in states like Haryana, Punjab, Uttar Pradesh, Karnataka, Tamil Nadu and Maharashtra is upwards of Rs 6 per unit.

Solar tariffs in the country have fallen to as low as Rs 2.36 per unit but they do not include various charges and are without storage.

EESL has proposed that if the state governments replace all gram panchayat street lighting with LEDs, it will charge Rs 3.87 per unit of
electricity supply for 25 years. In addition, if the inefficient agricultural pumps are to be replaced with efficient ones, the tariff will be set at
Rs 4.50 per unit for 25 years.

EESL has already signed agreement with Maharashtra for implementing 800 MW of decentralised solar plants in the state. The average size of the plants at one location is 0.7 MW, up to a maximum of 10 MW.

“We have built a base case in Maharashtra. We are in talks with Uttar Pradesh and Jharkhand also,” Kumar said, adding Maharashtra alone has a requirement of 12-13 GW if the state were to solarise all agriculture pumps.
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Re: Solar energy in India

Post by Vayutuvan »

Rishirishi wrote: Hopefully we can say bye bye to coal and later Gas.
I hope you mean "Natural Gas" AKA fossil natural gas by Gas :wink: :((
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Re: Solar energy in India

Post by KL Dubey »

Some points about the national solar mission and the targets. Note this is about "grid-connected" solar energy and not about "off-grid" solar energy.

1) Overall solar power status in India:

https://mnre.gov.in/the-ministry/physical-progress
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_pow ... _forecasts

We are currently at 37 GW of solar power.

2) The "100 GW" target includes 40 GW of grid-connected rooftop solar (homes, commercial buildings) and 60 GW of grid-connected solar power plants (of which 3 GW was already done by 2015 end) .

https://www.seci.co.in/upload/static/fi ... %20(1).pdf

3) What we hear about in the news is mostly the latter (solar power plants) - including expansions of existing plants, new large installations, and a bunch of new medium/small installations. We seem to be moving quite fast on that front: 32 GW installed with target being 60 GW.

We installed 10 GW last year (the target was 17 GW). I don't know how things are going this year.

In terms of future capacity: Just in the last month about 9 GW of new capacity was awarded (most of it going to Adani). Moreover, bids for another 10-12 GW are due between today and Aug 21. The SECI tender list is useful to keep track of this:

https://www.seci.co.in/view/publish/tender?tender=all

4) Rooftop solar seems to be going much slower: only 3 GW installed so far with a 40 GW target.

Overall, the momentum is very high and the scale is among the highest in the world. It is not as important to "reach the 100 GW target" by 2022 (it may take till 2024). It is more important to maintain/keep increasing the momentum, do more of the manufacturing in India, and import from non-China sources.
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Re: Solar energy in India

Post by Vayutuvan »

the last sentence is the key. let us see if we can get 60% MII by 2024. if we do, then I think we will get to 100 GW soon after.
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Re: Solar energy in India

Post by Mort Walker »

For residential use, solar is ideal if you plan on staying in the property for the long term. For commercial power generation we have to look at what solar cost is with storage and what average power is from 6AM-12 midnight where demand is the greatest. Right now, from a cost point of view, solar is ideal for handling peak load during the summers.

Momentum in solar is high due to Chinese imports. As in other cases, manufacturing of PVs within India would be ideal. Given the tariff cost and low average power of PVs, perhaps work on CSP needs to be looked at where sequestered carbon can be utilized using CSP to make fuels such as hydrogen.

Here's a ling about using CO2 feedstock to make hydrocarbons:
https://www.nrel.gov/csp/solar-fuels.html
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Re: Solar energy in India

Post by KL Dubey »

Mort Walker wrote:Given the tariff cost and low average power of PVs, perhaps work on CSP needs to be looked at where sequestered carbon can be utilized using CSP to make fuels such as hydrogen.

Here's a ling about using CO2 feedstock to make hydrocarbons:
https://www.nrel.gov/csp/solar-fuels.html
CO2 to fuels is not viable if you are looking to deploy power technology at large scale between now and 2030. Another "$hit-to-food" type of Ponzi scheme that will inevitably encourage "$hit more to eat more" behavior and will end up having no effect on carbon mitigation.

Let plants, trees, and oceans do their thing with CO2 and let humans focus on not emitting it.

A better idea is to bundle PV, solar thermal (CSP), and conventional thermal (for now) for 24/7 power supply. A recent SECI tender for up to 5 GW of such capacity closed in May. Let us see what the results are. CSP plants if built will likely piggyback on this type of structure. In future one can then drop the conventional thermal part (maybe substitute with nuclear).
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Re: Solar energy in India

Post by Mort Walker »

{Deleted}

CO2 is produced as byproduct from various industrial process. Sequestering it to produce high energy density fuels, such as jet fuel, using CSP and CO2 feedstock is an ideal application for solar. The reason being is that average power vs. peak power for solar has a huge variance. It is better to use solar for peak power loads and fuel production, given if cost can be brought down, than to extract more of it from the ground. Airbus is moving in this direction.

Image



https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/stories ... -fuel.html
https://www.solarpaces.org/at-synhelion ... bsequently
Last edited by Suraj on 21 Jul 2020 21:42, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Cmon now, you can make your technical points without needing to call people names.
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Re: Solar energy in India

Post by KL Dubey »

Mort Walker wrote:^^^.......
1) I'm reporting your post for saying I have a jihadi mentality. This is not acceptable.

2) I've "looked at the economics". I and colleagues have completed many technoeconomic and life cycle analyses of such processes. It's easy to put together nice graphics like the one in your post, but every step in that picture is hopelessly uneconomical at present. There is absolutely no relevance of these processes to India's power sector or solar energy deployment, anytime in the next 20 years and quite possibly never - so please don't take the discussion off topic. I already posted GOI's current trajectory and plans earlier.

3) CO2 is a very deep thermodynamic well. Everyone working in this field knows that. Read a basic chemical thermodynamics textbook and calculate for yourself. The only comparable industrial chemical process starting from such a deep well is nitrogen fixation (breaking the triple bond between two nitrogen atoms). That is a harsh (200 atm pressure, 400C) and expensive process. Even that is economical/practicable only because:

(a) There is no other option if you want ammonia, fertilizers, nitric acid etc in large amounts. Unlike carbon fixation, plants cannot be engineered to fix nitrogen in concentrated amounts as of now.
(b) Unlike 0.05% CO2 in air, N2 is 79% in air, so much less expense in obtaining N2 feedstock.
(c) The other chemical needed (hydrogen) is plentifully available - almost entirely from fossil fuels.

4) Having experience since the last 20 years in working in this and related areas, it's clear that the "hype" period is coming to an end, and realism is setting in. Most of the claims of economically viable processes of this nature are simply Ponzi schemes to gain funds/investments. Most of the other projects are simply deep-pocketed organizations (private and government) wishing to have a few "cool" demonstrations. There's invariably some new CEO/CTO or program official who wants a 'signature' project before they are out the revolving door.

5) As far as jet fuel: There are already deployment-ready processes to take lignocellulosic biomass (wood wastes like lignin, agro wastes like corn stover) and convert them into jet fuel. Let plants capture the CO2 and process that biomass. It is plentiful, and currently unused except for burning to generate electricity. Its still by far the most efficient and low-cost way to capture and use carbon.
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Re: Solar energy in India

Post by Mort Walker »

1. When you talk about eating $h!t, your post becomes non-serious.

2. Solar energy in India is about low initial cost and low recurring costs. That low cost is offset when storage is considered. The low cost is again offset by the average power production. Solar will remain for the purposes of handling peak load. The base load will have to come from natural gas, coal or nuclear. Aside from the low tariff rates, average power is a factor before building out more solar - which is one of the reasons why more solar is being installed at a slower pace.

3. Instead of talking about eating $h!t, you should take a look at the sustained temperatures generated by CSP. These are well above 400C with the capability of going over 700C. Using maximum sunlight periods in places like India makes this ideal.

4. Unless your experience comes from the CEA or power generation companies, the claim of ponzi schemes is the equivalent to feeding the rest of us with $h!t.

5. The idea is to use CSP to generate high energy density fuels. Jet fuel is one example, hydrogen is another. You can use CSP to heat tar sands and other materials to generate high energy density fuels.
KL Dubey
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Re: Solar energy in India

Post by KL Dubey »

Mort Walker wrote:....
I appreciate your showing all your knowledge, however, it has nothing much to do with "Solar Energy in India".

Regarding "$hit", it was obviously a metaphor. I also mentioned "food", but isn't that a metaphor too ? What I meant was, e.g., there is no current way to pull out CO2 economically from air unless *maybe* if you use it for something that is already at scale and valuable. That "something" is usually enhanced oil recovery (EOR), i.e. pump the CO2 into petroleum wells to push out more oil/gas. The more CO2 you can get, the more oil you can push out. Carbon mitigation goals will not be met, we might even end up emitting more carbon and keep using fossil resources.

If you walk around a modern refinery, petrochemical plant, biorefinery or a paper mill, you realize what the actual opportunities are and how far removed the reality is from the things you are parroting. You don't need to use solar energy for things like "splitting water" or "removing CO2 from air" right now, because there are much better options. There are a million real opportunities to "electrify" fuel and chemical production with cheap renewable (e.g. solar) energy from the grid, and stop using energy from coal, oil, and gas. And use renewable biomass feedstocks, which by definition have already been produced with solar energy and CO2 pulled from the air (photosynthesis).

Put another way, make a list of methods to produce chemicals and fuels using "solar energy" (which is not just solid-state photovoltaics and thermal/CSP, it also includes chemical energy stored in biomass, and wind is also solar energy, so is hydroelectric mostly).

#1 is the current scenario: petroleum processing, using biomass that nature created (plants and forests) and then converted over millions of years into hydrocarbons and coal.

#2 is the next closest: biorefining. At a high level, almost everything is the same. You still use the same starting biomass, but the technological advance is to accelerate its conversion to hydrocarbons from million years to hours/days. It's also good environmentally because there is a closed carbon loop, you are not taking out extra carbon from the ground. Between the different biomass types/components, you have almost all the useful basic fuel and chemical building blocks that nature already has constructed "using solar energy".

#3 et al are getting into "desperate territory": E.g., waiting all the way till the final waste product CO2 and attempting to recover and valorize that from a deep thermodynamic well. That's stupid economically unless you have no other options. Also stupid ecologically, especially when nature can push up grass, trees, crops etc much more efficiently with CO2 and solar energy than you can convert CO2 to anything useful. Might be still useful to create demonstrations...maybe one day it will be useful to support a colony on Mars or something.

The reason why even #2 has difficulty expanding is because #1 is still cheap, highly efficient, and plentiful. And here we have people digging into the bottom of barrel for the "desperate options". This is how the Ponzi scheme gets started...the typical argument is "#1 is still going strong, we are still taking out lots of carbon from the ground, so now let us use #3 (desperate schemes) to save the world". Any intelligent person can understand how this will propagate.

So, simple conclusion from me: just provide cheap solar power/energy at scale, to enable #2 to expand and enable #1 to reduce carbon emissions. You can keep talking about #3.
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Re: Solar energy in India

Post by Mort Walker »

KL Dubey wrote:<snip>
You're rationalizing the use of "$h!t-to-food" pozni scheme". It betrayed your intentions about thinking rationally. The use of biorefining and biofuels causes the consumption of clean water and arable land more so than current methods to extract oil and gas. It's not a good way to use clean water especially.

Solar power is about providing cheap power with minimal recurring costs. Carbon emissions are a secondary issue for developing countries. Pollution is the bigger one and is wrong to conflate pollution with carbon emissions.

If you look at PVs for power, in the recent instance of Rewa with a nameplate of 750 MW, the average power over a 24 hour period is a different issue and the loss of converting DC to AC using inverters and rectifiers is on the order of 10%. At best the plant has a peak power of 675 MW. The big advantage is the non-recurring cost of fuel, and the replacement of panels and inverters is relatively low.

The concept of cheap solar power has to be looked at in its entirety. The power over a 24 hour period is broken into 8 hours at 675 MW, 4 hours at 325 MW, 4 hours at 150 MW, and 8 hours at 0 MW. Right now, power from PVs can be utilized on the grid during the day, but very soon (3 years from now) you won't be able to use the excess power during the day. So you have storage, which raises the cost of PV power significantly, or you use CSP to process energy dense fuels. The easiest thing to do is use CSP with coal or tar sands to convert it to fuel. That's still going to create a fair amount of pollution.

Ideally, to reduce air pollution, you would have nuclear reactors to carry the base load and then solar to carry peak load. Nuclear power has consistent output power and excellent efficiency.
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Re: Solar energy in India

Post by Rishirishi »

Mort Walker wrote:
KL Dubey wrote:<snip>
You're rationalizing the use of "$h!t-to-food" pozni scheme". It betrayed your intentions about thinking rationally. The use of biorefining and biofuels causes the consumption of clean water and arable land more so than current methods to extract oil and gas. It's not a good way to use clean water especially.

Solar power is about providing cheap power with minimal recurring costs. Carbon emissions are a secondary issue for developing countries. Pollution is the bigger one and is wrong to conflate pollution with carbon emissions.

If you look at PVs for power, in the recent instance of Rewa with a nameplate of 750 MW, the average power over a 24 hour period is a different issue and the loss of converting DC to AC using inverters and rectifiers is on the order of 10%. At best the plant has a peak power of 675 MW. The big advantage is the non-recurring cost of fuel, and the replacement of panels and inverters is relatively low.

The concept of cheap solar power has to be looked at in its entirety. The power over a 24 hour period is broken into 8 hours at 675 MW, 4 hours at 325 MW, 4 hours at 150 MW, and 8 hours at 0 MW. Right now, power from PVs can be utilized on the grid during the day, but very soon (3 years from now) you won't be able to use the excess power during the day. So you have storage, which raises the cost of PV power significantly, or you use CSP to process energy dense fuels. The easiest thing to do is use CSP with coal or tar sands to convert it to fuel. That's still going to create a fair amount of pollution.

Ideally, to reduce air pollution, you would have nuclear reactors to carry the base load and then solar to carry peak load. Nuclear power has consistent output power and excellent efficiency.
Coal, nuclear and gas is out.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&url=htt ... AdAAAAABAD


Peak load power from green sources delivered for under Rs4 per Kwh. This is about the same as coal power.

https://www.pv-magazine.com/2020/02/03/ ... 66595-kwh/
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Re: Solar energy in India

Post by Vayutuvan »

Rishirishi wrote:Peak load power from green sources delivered for under Rs4 per Kwh. This is about the same as coal power.

https://www.pv-magazine.com/2020/02/03/ ... 66595-kwh/
Was that with or w/o subsidies? Gas is which gas? Imported fossil fuel? Also, why are they comparing electricity generation? Gas can be used for transportation directly. Why generate electricity and then lose 50% in transmission losses before upgrading the grid?
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Re: Solar energy in India

Post by KL Dubey »

Vayutuvan wrote:
Rishirishi wrote:Peak load power from green sources delivered for under Rs4 per Kwh. This is about the same as coal power.

https://www.pv-magazine.com/2020/02/03/ ... 66595-kwh/
Was that with or w/o subsidies? Gas is which gas? Imported fossil fuel? Also, why are they comparing electricity generation? Gas can be used for transportation directly. Why generate electricity and then lose 50% in transmission losses before upgrading the grid?
Not sure. Even if it is a tax break (lower GST on equipment etc) it is well worth it. Oil and gas are heavily subsidized.

https://www.ceew.in/publications/mappin ... idies-2020

The recommendations from this think-tank seem quite sound:
Key Recommendations

Prioritise health and economic recovery while navigating the COVID-19 crisis—but clean energy transition can and should be reflected in coping strategies and support measures.

Resist new O&G subsidies. Volatile prices make them a liability; they are hard to remove once introduced; and they cause fossil energy lock-in.

Adopt RE subsidies for emerging technologies and grid balancing. Clean electricity is essential. Other sectors, such as transport and cooking, will rely on electrification to deliver clean energy.

Target consumption subsidies for energy access - LPG and electricity - without harming energy access.

Address the full costs of coal. A plan is needed to address coal pricing in a socially responsible way, including diversifying revenues and protecting consumers and workers.

Monitor and adapt EV subsidies to ensure effective, efficient and equitable support, including for two-wheelers, public transport, waste treatment, and battery recycling.

Develop formal reporting structures on subsidies in line with formal guidelines for SDG 12(c)1 and India’s G20 peer review of fossil fuel subsidies.
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Re: Solar energy in India

Post by Mort Walker »

The definition of subsidies from CEEW seems very specious. It seems they have another agenda which is to inhibit India's development by forcing expensive sources of energy.
What types of subsidies exist?
Energy subsidies are often distinguished by whether they mainly benefit energy producers or energy consumers.

The WTO also recognizes four main types of subsidy mechanism,

Transfers of funds and liabilities: Such as grants, credit support or paying for health, accident and environmental costs.
Revenue foregone: Such as tax breaks or lower taxes than equivalent goods
Below-value goods or services: Such as below-market access to government-owned energy resources, land and infrastructure
Income of price support: Such regulations that create transfers of financial benefits between market actors, such as fixed prices for motor fuels, feed-in tariffs or biofuel blending mandates.
Basically, GoI sets an upper limit when there are oil and gas fluctuations. Otherwise transportation fuel and cooking gas becomes expensive and becomes a driver of inflation which hurts everyone. As prices fall, GoI doesn't drop prices on fuel and gas, but recovers some of the tax losses. Fuels aren't covered by GST, rather there's a smorgasboard of taxes such as VAT, cess and levies which accounts for nearly 60% of the cost of fuel.
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Re: Solar energy in India

Post by KL Dubey »

Mort Walker wrote:The definition of subsidies from CEEW seems very specious. It seems they have another agenda which is to inhibit India's development by forcing expensive sources of energy.
This line of argument is about 20 years old/too late now. I don't see anywhere trying to force expensive energy sources. GOI is already doing pretty much everything in the recommendations from CEEW.

The subsidy definitions are taken from IISD, which lays it out in great detail here (including graphic breakdowns of how much by individual mechanisms): https://www.iisd.org/gsi/india-energy-t ... 2020-data/
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